Tubing freezing off taps

[doocat]

Just curious if any one else is having problems with tubing coming off taps. These 10 degree nights are pushing off taps. Just a pain in the can!

[Atgreene]

Yes, my leader check valve spouts are pushing the tubing off, dozens a day.

[Asa Matras]

Yup, its happening on our stubbys. Also with the clear check valves the tubing comes right off the tap.

[GeneralStark]

Yes. It seems to be a perpetual issue this season with the dramatic temp. variations. I have never seen it this bad. I had to hook up about 30 drops that came disconnected since the last time the sap ran....

[eagle lake sugar]

It's nothing new here, we frequently have 0 degree temperatures until April. In fact it was -6 near here this morning. Two seasons ago it was -12 on April 4th, talk about some taps pushing out!

[Russell Lampron]

You guys need to change to a different brand of tubing for your drops. No has mentioned what they are using but I bet it's some type of semi rigid tubing like 30P. I use IPL pink stripe which is now CDL see through tubing. It stays on the taps and is soft and flexible. I haven't had a single drop fall off of a spout but a friend that is using 30P has to go out after every hard freeze and put dozens of them back on.

[littleTapper]

I've gotten push offs this season too, but only on CV2 taps that have new drops, with CDL tubing. The drop lines made last year with Leader tubing are staying put.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[doocat]

Well I'm glad I am not alone. I have a few different types of line in use on the drops due to switching them out regularly.. No 30p.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

From what I can tell, it has nothing to do with brand of tubing. It is the year. I was in the woods last night at 8. Temp was 26. Sap was still running out of trees well. Nothing was coming into releasers. That is the problem. Trees are running well below freezing. Sap can't go anywhere because lines are frozen. Pressure in system makes lines come apart at weakest link. We actually had a connector blow apart on a 3/4" mainline because of this. Not only has it came apart at the spouts but we have also had 5/16" ts and connectors push apart this year.....have never seen this.
Neil

[doocat]

I was sure its not the tubing either. I was thinking it might have been the spout I used this year but now I see other people are having trouble with different spouts. I guess I just get to spend extra time in my favorite spot....the woods! I also noticed one time it is the trees at the bottom of the hill and another it is only at the top of the hill. I can only assume different trees are running based on temp, sun, etc. Thanks Neil for the info.

Craig

[Maplewalnut]

I have not had any issues with cdl and D&g tubing with cdl smart spouts

[Windy Acres]

All H20 3/16 here, not a single problem, except for the bastardly little squirrels and chipmunk lol

[wurmdert]

I went over everything today after the cold spell. Had 5 drops come off dsd taps with the slip collars and had 2 stubbies come out of adapters. Also had one line separate at d&g single barb union. no slippage on CDL at all

[WestfordSugarworks]

Yeah thanks Neil. I was really curious if other sugarmakers were having the same issue, and if so, what kind of drop and spout they were using. Thanks for your insight, that's what i come to Maple Trader for. How many have you had pop off?

It's our first year using CV2s so we were thinking the spouts were the issue. I notice they go onto the drop a bit easier than spouts we used in the past (D&G white 110 degree, CDL smart spout, and Leader clear 90 degree). Leader clear 90 degree is the same design as check valve and we never had issues with those back in 2016. So good to know it's not the spout neccesarily, because we'd like to be able to continue to use these.

Very weird that sap is running when it's dark and below freezing. Wonder what's going on. I know a lot of sugarmakers throughout the region have been having great runs at barely above freezing. We've had the best runs of the year at 36 degrees.

The spouts popping off has been pretty ridiculous for us. Yesterday our 3000 tap bush was running 12" vacuum, I spent nearly 5 hours walking lines through the deep snow, found a lot of popped drops, and got us back up to 26.5 or so and then my dad found a leaking quick connect and fixed that we so we were up to nearly max vac. Then today my dad gets there after work and we were pulling 10" again. He fixes everything and comes to help me at our 12000 tap bush where we were pulling 15" to start out. We found 30 popped drops and a few chews and spouts that needed a whack.

The sap running so cold is a good and a bad thing I guess, but at this point I really would rather it only run at 34 or so, so that we stop getting these popping off.

[Potters3]

We have D&G, Leader 30P and MaxGrip in our woods both Leader clear spout and clear adapters with stubby spout. Lots of push offs found with all tubing using the clear spout. Non with the stubby and clear adapter. Good news it looks like the really cold weather is gone for us and we can start making syrup again and stop chasing leaks. Thursday we were at 8" when the wife got home, yesterday it was running at 18" of vac when I got home. I think we are tight again and running 25.5" last night when we finished our walks.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I just checked with the 5400 tap operation we work with after hearing all this on here. We had this deep freeze here too well below zero wind chills last weekend at night. He was at 24-25" before the freeze and started Wednesday right there again. Pulled sap until midnight last night. There's a common theme about those with issues and those without........

[doocat]

What is the common theme.. If we are doing something wrong we would love to know.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Probably get bashed for starting a brand war but common theme seems to be issues with the check valve and adapter setups and some brands of tubing. I am not saying any person is doing something wrong. I am saying there is a common theme in some line/spout issues. Anyone running CDL 5/16" semi rigid tubing and CDL smartspouts having an issue?

[maple flats]

My drops with just 30 in what 30P I had left are all D&G tubing, 5/16, about 80 going to a 3/16 x 3/16/ 5/16 T and the rest going all 5/16. I had 26-27" vacuum until late yesterday, then it fell to 17". Most likely the freeze pushed a tap loose, I have not had any tubing push apart this season. My taps are about 1/3 Zap Bac and 2/3 CV2. All drops and taps were new this year. I'll be walking the woods as soon as things thaw today to fix the leaks. Sap will barely run today, but tomorrow it will flow good, mid 40's in the forecast.

[wiam]

Probably get bashed for starting a brand war but common theme seems to be issues with the check valve and adapter setups and some brands of tubing. I am not saying any person is doing something wrong. I am saying there is a common theme in some line/spout issues. Anyone running CDL 5/16" semi rigid tubing and CDL smartspouts having an issue?

Then please explain why this is my first year with this problem.

[doocat]

I have cdl, d&g, and probably some Lapierre for drops due to switching out drops. Not leader spouts either. So I’ll reserve my judgement on being brand specific. Thanks for the info.

[S.S.S]

I have leader tubing mixed with leader fittings and Lapierre fittings along with Lapierre tubing and never had tubing come off a fitting ever.

[Atgreene]

The good news is that all this walking has me in great shape. The bad news is we've lost a lot of sap, vacuum and time. Trudging through knee deep snow for 3 weeks fixing these has given me lots of time to think about which brand of tubing I'm buying, since Leader is no longer an option.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I dunno wiam......is it the guys with newer tubing that are having the issues? Maybe something changed there in recent years? Same thing with the check valves? I’m telling you I know a guy who didn’t have the issues this year in a 5400 tsp bush. All taps and drops are three years old or less. Some tubing is 12 years old and some is brand new. It’s all CDL semi rigid and smartspouts.

[GeneralStark]

Here is my take on this at the present time after dealing with quite a few disconnected drops in the last couple weeks. There appear to be several factors including tubing and nature, and while I can only speak specifically to my situation, I suspect there are some similarities for all of us that are experiencing this.

In my situation I am using CDL semi-rigid tubing and 4 seasons shadow grey on my neighbors land (100 taps) because they don't like the blue. The shadow grey has given me very little issue except in one spot where I have a shadow grey drop on blue semi rigid. That one drop has probably come off 5 times, but it is on a very flat long run...

I am using CV2 spouts on 1-2 season old drops and smart spouts on new drops. I have had more issues with the CV2s but have had some drops come off the smart spouts as well. I have also had to push drops back on that were about to come loose on both spouts. At first I thought it was a CV2 issue but now I think it is tubing related. Spud mentioned in another thread that he had some CDL tubing that was a bit larger than usual and had had similar issues. I think that this could be a factor, but I also think that the fact that I cut off spouts at the end of the season and then plug them on a pin T is a factor in that it may stretch the tubing slightly so that when I reconnect the new spout the next season, they are slightly looser than with a fresh cut drop.

The last couple days I have been sliding the drop back on the spout ever so slightly to see how easily it goes on, and in some cases it is way too easy... So either the tubing is extruded incorrectly (as Spud suggested), or the pin T is stretching the tubing. In each case I can visually see that the tubing is slightly flared. SO this has been my solution. Every drop that comes disconnected gets about 2-3 inches cut off before re-connecting it to the spout. The difference is dramatic when the drop goes back on...a considerably better fit.

All this said, I think nature is a factor as well and I also think that Wallings is correct. We have had some pretty extreme temp. swings in a time of the season when the sun angle is considerably higher. The trees are warming and running well but the lines are freezing when the trees are still pushing out sap. If the tubing is slightly larger, then it is that much more likely for the drop to come off to relieve the pressure, or be pushed off by forming ice.

I'm curious what others' thoughts are and if others that leave the drop plugged on a pin T may be seeing this more than those that do otherwise...Or is it tubing that was extruded too large?

[WestfordSugarworks]

From what I can tell, it has nothing to do with brand of tubing. It is the year. I was in the woods last night at 8. Temp was 26. Sap was still running out of trees well. Nothing was coming into releasers. That is the problem. Trees are running well below freezing. Sap can't go anywhere because lines are frozen. Pressure in system makes lines come apart at weakest link. We actually had a connector blow apart on a 3/4" mainline because of this. Not only has it came apart at the spouts but we have also had 5/16" ts and connectors push apart this year.....have never seen this.
Neil

Refer back to an earlier post in the thread.. Neil is sharing an observation that others have seen throughout VT and in other areas. While tubing and spout may well have a role in tubing pushing off spouts, I just today talked to 3 sugarmakers from Fletcher and walked their woods. They collectively boil from about 300,000 taps and all were familiar with these issues. JR Sloan and Rick Mayotte both use a lot of stubbies and adapters and were having this issue too. Spout popping out of tree too. These two sugarmakers were not about to blame their tubing or spouts.

First year that we've ever had so many issues with this but we're not going to blame tubing or spout yet. Would need a study or someway other than a third-hand observation to make a big choice like that. I actually do think the CV2 doesn't hold as well as some other brands, particularly those with barbs, and I know Leader drop does have a slightly wider ID than other dropline, but not going to change decision making based on bizarre weather patterns and weird sap flows.

[WestfordSugarworks]

I'm curious what others' thoughts are and if others that leave the drop plugged on a pin T may be seeing this more than those that do otherwise...Or is it tubing that was extruded too large?

We plug drop onto pin. My dad DID pull some spouts off of the dropline last year rather than cutting, so I believe those drops that already had a spout in them last year are slightly larger and much more susceptible to popping off. However, we are using original dropline and same practices as always, this year the popping is just really bad.

[Cedar Eater]

Well, since everyone else is chiming in, I have this one section of Leader 30P 3/16" tubing that was dropped at both ends. One end was a Leader 3/16" connector. The other was a CDL 3/16-5/16-3/16 tee. I blame that @#$#%^&$*, Mother Nature.

[GeneralStark]

However, we are using original dropline and same practices as always, this year the popping is just really bad.

I totally agree that it is mostly the nature of this season, but it does seem at least in my case, that tubing is a contributing factor. In past seasons I have had a couple here and there over the season, but nothing like this year. I have been using the same practices for quite a few years at this same site as well, so clearly the season's weather is the major factor

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

We have d&g 81 ul and cdl semi rigid exclusively in our woods. About half and half. Drops range from new this year to six years old. All cv2 spouts. Eratube 3-step ts. Doesn't matter how old tubing is. We've had them come apart on new tubing, old tubing, d and g tubing and cdl tubing. We've also had them come apart at the bottom of the drop from the top of the t. Never have I seen this till this year.

[Crowsap]

I walked my woods today and found everything intact. I have 100 taps with 5 lateral lines and it is all new this year as it's my first year using tubing. I have all Leader 3/16 tubing, CV's, Stubby spouts, and T's for my drop lines. I am at 2000 ft in elevation so it's been frozen for a few weeks and was still frozen today. Maybe I am just lucky so far or maybe it's because it's all new? It is also pretty steep with 200ft drop in elevation from my top trees to the collection tank in 800 ft distance. I know this doesn't help this conversation but after reading this thread I was expecting several pop offs today but there wasn't a single one.

[wdchuck]

I'll throw a monkey wrench into some of the prevailing threads......I have a variety of tubing and drops, but all with Leader stubbys and adapters. Lots of pop-offs, but only at the T, NEVER at the spout.....and absolutely none where tubing, drop, and spout was all Leader. My biggest issue appeared to be old tubing, regardless of brand.

[Tmeeeh]

18297
It seems for whatever reason the sap has continued to run from the tree after the spout/tubing has frozen. As the sap freezes it expands and it has to go somewhere. It pushes spouts out of the tree or separates the spout adapter from the stubby or pushes tees apart or pushes mainline fittings apart. This occurs on gravity systems and on high vacuum systems. We use all kinds of tubing here for laterals and for drops. Leader, IPL, and CDL. Some very old some new. As far as we can tell the kind of tubing makes little difference. We use check valve adapters and mostly we see the adapter separate from the stubby the next most common is the drop pushing off the tee. Also we see tees pushing apart with tubing falling down into the snow.

In previous years this occurred occasionally in the colder low elevation frost pockets of our woods. This year was much worse than ever before but we had almost no problem in the lower frost pocket areas but the trouble occurred in the warmer areas of the woods.

I don't know of any tubing/spout combination that can expand and absorb the larger volume of freezing sap as shown in the attached photo.

In case you can't view the photo I'm trying to attach, it shows a check valve adapter that has pushed off the stubby there is a protruding piece of frozen sap sticking out about 1/2 inch where the stubby was.

The solution to this problem may take a while to discover. in the meantime we get lots of exercise and our vacuum level isn't what we would like.

[WestfordSugarworks]

18297

The solution to this problem may take a while to discover. in the meantime we get lots of exercise and our vacuum level isn't what we would like.

Yup! Dad and I walked lines for 10 hours between the two of us yesterday, both bushes down below 20 inches to begin with. Found at least 45 hanging droplines.

[DrTimPerkins]

I have leader tubing mixed with leader fittings and Lapierre fittings along with Lapierre tubing and never had tubing come off a fitting ever.

We have a mixture of tubing, most with Leader spouts (CV2s, some CV4/stubby). No push-offs so far, but we haven't really had a good thaw yet either. We should know better later today.

A few years ago a colleague from Quebec gave me a tubing sizing gauge. He said that they had seen some quality control issues in tubing from several manufacturers, and he had these gauges made up (for 5/16" tubing). You could test the rolls at the ends by putting the gauge in....and it would tell you if tubing was too small (hard to put fittings on) or too large (fittings would push off). We use these now when we buy tubing.

[Tmeeeh]

I assume that the frozen sap not only pushes the fittings away from each other but it expands the inside diameter of the tubing as well.

We are not experiencing push offs now even though the night time temps have been in the low twenties. The sap is not running as hard now.

I think it had to do with days where the sap ran hard into the evening and then the temperature dropped quickly. (Ideal sugaring weather)

This happened every day for 8 days straight. We had two people hiking to find and repair as soon as things thawed out until we got it tight. Some days we didn't have time to find them all. Usually 20-30 new push offs each day in our 2200 tap woods.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

First day with the vacuum on, we found over 50 pushed off so far, vacuum only up to 14 (started at 6), once more into the breach dear friends......

[CampHamp]

I always assumed that taps popped in the morning, when the sun hits the trees and the air is still below freezing and ices up where the line is in the shade. Maybe we need transition tubing that is black when cold and white when it’s warm!

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

18348 What a weird year. Been sugaring thirty years and have never seen stuff come apart in the woods day after day like it has this year

[doocat]

I’m with you Neil. We never had this happen in previous years and we are doing nothing different. Two taps off yesterday and it only went to low 20s. Hopefully it will slow with changing weather patterns. Definitely better sugar after the cold spell though!

[Atgreene]

Found another 20-30 on my 3/16 the last couple days. Leader 30p, pulled apart at the t as well as dropline separated at the cv spout. Not to mention an entire area destroyed by what we think was a racoon sucking on sap. The 30p pulling apart at the t is really ticking me off. Fwiw, I'm a huge leader fan, but none of the cdl 3/16 has come apart. None. No leader cv spouts hooked to cdl has come apart. No cdl fittings hooked to leader 30p has come apart. Lesson learned. It's not scientific, but I now know a couple changes for our tapping operation:
1. All fittings will be CDL
2. All Drops will be swapped to CDL
3. All cv spouts hooked to leader 30p will be put on with a tool rather than pushed on by hand

[ennismaple]

We've had a lot of spouts push off this year, lines pull apart at the T, lines pull off the mainline etc... It's been a constant battle to keep the vacuum up. The sap has been running at barely above freezing but sometimes the mainline is froze and the pressure eventually blows something apart if it gets cold enough.

[Bruce L]

Our only issue so far this year has been tubing blowing off the saddles in extended cold snaps. Has happened in previous years,but not to this extent. Will be replacing all of these saddles before another season,as my wife and I walked one bush of less than 400 taps and found 9 lines blown off,vacuum improved greatly after that. They are Lapierre saddles without the straps,wire ties hold them on,and there is not a double barb like most saddles,so the lines just pop off in freezes,or when back washing at end of season

[DrTimPerkins]

We've certainly had our share of extreme cold and then some (probably more than others given our elevation), but have had very few lateral/fitting/spout heaving. This is with a variety of fittings and spouts. We did have 3 places where mainlines (black water pipe) pulled/pushed off of SS fittings, which is extremely unusual. Fortunately, once things thawed a bit, we were able to locate them quickly with our Smartrek system and get them repaired.

[Barkley]

We use all Leader check valve taps and CDL tubing. This year across 825 taps only two droplines popped off the taps. In 2016 the first year for the new system we had over 30 and questioned our choice of fittings. However we realized that we had not seated the droplines onto the taps fully. Once we started to make sure we pushed the dropline fully onto the tap (not just past the small ridge) we solved the problem. We remove the taps at the end of the season and the droplines are secured on a plug on the side of a Lapierre T. If the dropline slips onto the plug too easily we re-cut the end. We only had to do this on less than 10 droplines. So the plug is kind of a guage to make sure the tubing hasn't stretched too much so that it will be loose on the tap next season. Our bigger issue for this season has been air leaking in around the taps and having to give a couple of light taps to seal them up. Also had one plug on the end of a 1" mainline blow out.