Defoamer / allergy question

[tbear]

This is the first year we've had to use a defoamer. I have always taken pride in being able to say that there is nothing in the bottles of syrup we sell except tree sap. Now, although we use very little defoamer, there is that addition. I'm concerned about people with allergies to what we use, organic sunflower oil, and am not sure how to proceed. It seems we should have the defoamer, whatever we end up using, listed on the "ingredients" area of our lables. How do you handle the aspect of possible allergies? Thanks, Ted

[Ntatar]

While we don't have sunflower allergies in our house, we do have 2 celiacs. One of them can tell within 24 hours if they've experienced cross-contamination. For what it's worth, we always appreciate transparency. I'd put a note on your bottle/website unless there's clear evidence that the process of making syrup removes the proteins that trigger the allergy so that you don't have to be concerned. For what it's worth deep frying doesn't do anything to gluten (not hot enough) so we can only eat fried foods that go in a fryer that's never had gluten in it. We never go back to places that talked a good game and then experience cross-contamination.

[VTnewguy]

This is the first year we've had to use a defoamer. I have always taken pride in being able to say that there is nothing in the bottles of syrup we sell except tree sap. Now, although we use very little defoamer, there is that addition. I'm concerned about people with allergies to what we use, organic sunflower oil, and am not sure how to proceed. It seems we should have the defoamer, whatever we end up using, listed on the "ingredients" area of our lables. How do you handle the aspect of possible allergies? Thanks, Ted
I would think that your states Ag dept should be able to help. My understanding of defoamer is that it evaporates as it is condensed. But don't take my word for it.

[Scm]

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[motowbrowne]

To the best of my knowledge, all syrup made on a modern setup had defoamer in it. Okay, if not ALL of it, the VAST majority. I don't know about anyone else, but I've never seen it on an ingredient list.

[Bricklayer]

I assume it's considered a " processing aid". And doesn't have to be labeled in ingredients. DE for filtering would be another " processing aid".

[Scm]

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[tbear]

That's what I think too Motowbrowne but that still leaves the possiblity of allergic reaction to the added defoamer, whatever a person uses. If, and here's the rub, the defoamer actually stays in the syrup. I can only imagine that it does as my understanding is that it doesent get hot enough to cook off. I hate to throw out the lables I already have if there is no need but making someone sick would be worse. Ted

[tbear]

So Scm, is Atmos3000 hypo-alyergenic? Ted

[Scm]

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[tbear]

For me it's not about healthy or not, organic or not, personally I lost interest in the organic craze almost as soon as it started but that's a different topic still. I just don't want to mislead people or cause them to become ill or worse. Ted

[Scm]

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[GeneralStark]

Defoamers ingredients have side effects for everyone.

What exactly are the side effects everyone experiences from consuming maple syrup containing trace amounts of defoamer?

[Michael Greer]

I seriously doubt that the defoamer makes it through the filters.

[DaveB]

Misleading people is using potentially toxic ingredients and not being required to labeling it. You can use “defoamer” and not have to label it, but does that make it safe? If you use organic, you basically have to label it, for the one of many allergies that could be associated with it. Dairy, soy, nut, etc..... but it’s safe all around as long as your NOT allergic to what was used. Defoamers ingredients have side effects for everyone.

I guess I would ask - is it truly present? Or, is it present in such minute quantities that it doesn't qualify as an ingredient? Does it evaporate? Someone mentioned DE and other filters - those are used in processing but would not be listed as an "ingredient". I was reading an article recently about a BBC study showing that bottled water contains tiny particles of plastic and thinking about the process of making maple syrup. I'm wondering if it too contains minute particles but that is not listed as an "ingredient" because it is not an ingredient.

I don't think there is a problem either listing on the label or Website (whatever people feel comfortable with) what is used in the collection and processing of maple sap into maple syrup but I don't think it should or needs to be listed as an ingredient unless it is present in quantities that can cause an issue. So far I have not read or seen any evidence that defoamers are.

[Scm]

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[GeneralStark]

I get it. You don’t care about health issues at all.



I care a great deal about health issues but that isn't the point. The point is that you made a statement and I am asking you to back it up. If there are health issues related to defoamer then you should be able support your argument.

[Scm]

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[DaveB]

I provided relevant links to information regarding the dangers of each the ingredients used in defoamer.
If atmos is so “safe”. Why does the USDA require “organic” defoamer be used when making organic maple syrup?
They allow toxic hexan be used when making “organic” canola oil. But not atmos in maple syrup?

Safe and organic are different things. Something can be safe but not organic. Likewise, something can be organic and not be safe.

Also, the keyword in your last sentence is "used". It's not an ingredient that is being consumed.

You still have not in this thread or any other that I have seen posted how atmos is either present in finished maple syrup or present in sufficient quantities to be defined as poison. Do you have a link or is the entire basis for your statements that the ingredients in atmos alone at high quantities can be considered poison? Those are two different things.

[Daveg]

I seriously doubt that the defoamer makes it through the filters.
Canola oil has a molecular size of 5-25µ and most filters used in sugaring will not stop 219°F canola oil from passing through.

[GeneralStark]

I provided relevant links to information regarding the dangers of each the ingredients used in defoamer.
If atmos is so “safe”. Why does the USDA require “organic” defoamer be used when making organic maple syrup?
They allow toxic hexan be used when making “organic” canola oil. But not atmos in maple syrup?

I see DaveG is getting at the same thing but you seem to be saying that because there are "dangers" with each of the ingredients in Atmos, then it is poison. This is absurd. Too much water will kill you, and it is an ingredient in beer. Therefore beer is poison....

Because certified organic syrup is required to be processed with only certified organic compounds is due to the certification requirements, not due to safety issues with non-organic compounds. And just because a solvent is used in producing organic canola oil does not mean it is present in the canola oil in any quantity that would be considered unsafe.

[Scm]

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[Scm]

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[tbear]

How do you handle the aspect of possible allergies? Thanks, Ted

For the love of everything good, please stop! The question was pretty straight forward. While there has been a few good points brought up ie. how much defoamer is actually in the syrup we bottle up / is there a hypo-allergenic defoamer, etc. The topic seems to me, maybe from my feelings of guilt for bringing it up, to have devolved into the "I'm right and you're wrong", "I am not!", "are too!" quagmire. Thank you all for your imput but please, let's stop. Ted

[DaveB]

Water, Unlike the ingredients in atmos, doesn’t have a list of known side effects.


The whole point of organic certification is (was) about pohibiting the use of non organic (unhealthy) ingredients.

You keep using the term ingredient but are not answering the question about whether defoamer is actually an ingredient or in what quantity it is present and if that quantity is problematic.

There are all kinds of minute things in the food you consume (organic or non-organic) that could kill you at higher doses but because they are present at such low quantities, they are not an issue. Like I mentioned, they've recently discovered that tiny particles of plastic are practically found in every bottle of bottled water. I'll bet that might also be the case with syrup and it could be anything you use for production. Are you going to list those as "ingredients" now that you know they are there? I'm betting not but I could be wrong.

Like others have said, you're trying to say that an individual additive in atmos defoamer at a higher dose can kill you so therefore it is poison but you keep failing to mention or demonstrate the level at which it would be found in a given container of syrup and demonstrate how that is poisonous.

I'll leave you with the fact that a lot of the foods you probably consume every day (organic or not) contain arsenic. You know that arsenic can kill you so why are those foods not poisonous? Hint: Is the arsenic found in such a minute quantity that it won't kill you and the benefits of the food outweigh the fact that it contains arsenic?

[maple flats]

And I don't believe organic means safe or even safer. People sign onto the organic issue, asbestos is organic. I grow blueberries, if I was certified organic I can have a certain amount if insects in the berries, not on, but in. If I'm not certified organic I can not have any. Lots of things organic are deadly.
As far as maple syrup goes, I far prefer using Atmos 300 because so far no allergic reactions have been associated with it and if one should surface the makers of Atmos have far deeper pockets than I do, besides, it may well be the most commonly used defoamer. If you are certified organic, do whatever they require, if just pretending to be organic do not identify your syrup as organic, the agencies that certify a product as organic will take you to court on that, they must get paid their fee.

[tbear]

Thank Dave. "No allergic reactions have deen associated with it", this is the kind of info I've been GOOGLING my head off trying to find. Can you direct me to a site where I might be able to read about ATMOS 300 as pertains to allergies? Ted

[Scm]

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[Gord]

Not to perpetuate the subject, but I was told butter has also been used to keep the foam down, but this might be for smaller producers like me when the foam keeps rising in the pot towards the end of the finishing process. I haven't tried it, so I have no experience. I have just been slowing things down at the final boil to keep the foam down.

[wlatrout]

Butter does work.

[Russell Lampron]

If you are making the syrup for yourself and not selling it butter works good. The problem is that someone that is lactose intolerant could have a problem with it.

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.

[jrm]

I'm a hobbyist and don't sell any product, and only give to a few friends and family. I also have never used any version of defoamer, so I can't address that specifically.

I do however have a food allergic son, not to dairy nor sunflower, but to nuts and other things. Shortly after starting this hobby, there was a thread mentioning hobbyists could use butter for defoaming, my immediate thought was the cross-contamination risk. I've not done the math, and saw the information posted earlier in the thread about the parts/billion or million FDA numbers. I had a friend who went into the fakery business after her child was diagnosed with food allergies and she found the sources to test her products to ensure that they did not meet the cross-contamination thresholds. Seems , that could be done here, for your peace of mind, as well as help in making the decision regarding your labels.

As a consumer, I'd rather have the information and be able to make an infomed decision. We do get ice cream, for instance, from a local producer who does use nuts, but I've been able to read information on the website, as well as have a conversation with staff to ensure I am comfortable with the process and risk to my son.

For what that's worth...

[Mark79]

If you are making the syrup for yourself and not selling it butter works good. The problem is that someone that is lactose intolerant could have a problem with it.

I started using a very small amount of butter to reduce the foam during the first stage of boiling fresh sap with great success. i cut about a 1/4 inch slice of butter then cut that in two and add one slice to two pans of sap holding about 13 gallons each. I have been noticing the butter floats on top of the sap like oil so not sure how much actual makes it through all the filtering. Guess I better let people know when gifting my syrup.

[argohauler]

My buddy's have a native friend that told them to use a spruce or pine how for defoaming and also acts as a skimmer.

[Sugarmaker]

A nice chunk of bacon dangled over the pan, near the level of the foam could work also. Just saying! I am going to use a very limited amount of Atmos until something better comes along!
As far as organic, I am glad there are folks out there following this path, makes more expensive food for the foodies!
I dont want anyone to get sick from bad food! I love food!
Regards,
Chris

[Ghs57]

A nice chunk of bacon dangled over the pan, near the level of the foam could work also. Just saying! I am going to use a very limited amount of Atmos until something better comes along!
As far as organic, I am glad there are folks out there following this path, makes more expensive food for the foodies!
I dont want anyone to get sick from bad food! I love food!
Regards,
Chris

I was part of a colonial maple demonstration a few years ago where they hung a chunk of salt pork over the kettle of boiling sap. It looked disgusting, and I have no idea what the sugar would have tasted like. Between the dripping fat and the wood smoke, probably not good.

In my area, organic is a hot item. I'd like to try something organic, as I am not fond of using chemicals in this process. I'm not certified organic, or anything else for that matter, except maybe nuts. As a vegetarian/sometimes vegan, some of the alternatives above do not appeal to me. But maybe safflower or sunflower oil.

[Sugarmaker]

Gary,
Understand completely!
Keep boiling!
Regards,
Chris

[mol1jb]

For me it comes down to 2 things. What I want to use in making my syrup and what my consumers find acceptable.

For what I want to use in syrup as defoamer is as natural a product as possible. For that reason I use sunflower oil. I know where it comes from (sunflower seeds) and am comfortable putting it into my product. It may not be the most effective but I am not comfortable putting a chemical defoamer in my syrup.

As for my consumers, this is our first season selling but I know the consumers that use our park and attend our programs. From past pancake breakfasts we have had inquiries about vegetarian and vegan options. Some may be fine with us using Atmos but I know others would not. And if someone asked me to describe the ingredients in Atmos I could not begin to do that or even pronounce them if I had to.

For those reasons I will stick to sunflower oil as defoamer.

[tbear]

mol1jb, will your label inform customers regarding the use of sunflower oil, for those with allergies? Ted

[mol1jb]

mol1jb, will your label inform customers regarding the use of sunflower oil, for those with allergies? Ted

They certainly will.

[neil2fish]

to answer Ted's question: If Atmos doesn't represent a risk of allergic reaction why should he care if its being used or not, or labeled or not? As far as health concerns - what are you going to die from? Di-hydrogen Oxide over exposure? Simple oxidation? Old age? As Robert Ryan said- "Choosing how to die, what's the difference? Choosing how to live, now that's the hard part" If Atmos in my syrup is what kills me, I've had a good life....

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.