red maples- sap volume

[PA mapler]

I'd like to re-do alot of my tubing system for next year, and am considering adding red maples. I don't want to increase my total tap number by much, but some of my sugars are overtapped, and the lines run right by red maples. In the past, though, I've tapped one or two reds here and there, or put buckets on a couple around the house, and they never seem to flow much. Have any of you guys noticed a difference in the amount of sap from a red vs. a sugar?

[royalmaple]

I've had good results on Vacuum and not too bad with gravity. But you're gonna get less sap than a really nice sugar maple, but like you mentioned if you are already going right by them, why not? If you are concerned about buddy syrup then watch them at the end of the season, and take them off line if it comes down to it or keep making whatever comes off the pans.

Personally I'd give the sugars a break and not overtap them and add on a fresh new red maple and be a little more forgiving on the sugars if they are being overtapped now like you said.

[John Burton]

yes the reds i have tapped in the past have always yeilded less sap. but the biggest difference is twards the end of the season. the reds have always stopped running at least a week early. just my observation

[Cardigan99]

How do you tell when a tree is 'over tapped'? Is it the same thing as 'tapped out'? I've heard both these terms before but I'm not sure how I would know. Does the flow slow?

[royalmaple]

I may have mis understood the post but my impression was that they had 2-3 or more taps on trees that should have 1 or 2. So by fewer tap holes each year it would be giving the tree a break. Or they may just be trees that have been tapped for 100 years, and they are running out of new wood.

My trees only stop when it's over, and on vacuum last year I was still getting good amounts of sap right till the trees stopped giving up sap when it got too warm. There were pleanty of people locally that quit long before I did and most all of them were 100% sugar maples.

[PA mapler]

I use the health spouts, and have tended to throw a second or third tap on a tree if I think it's big enough, instead if erring on the conservative side. But I need to change that, since some trees take longer to heal closed, and these trees I need to reduce the taps on. Most of my trees do not heal entirely the first year, but usually do by the second year. And it doesn't seem to always be related to how big and healthy the crown, either.

So, say I take off 60 taps from my sugars, and add 120 taps from new reds, I probably won't be getting a enormous increase in sap runs? Thanks for the replies!

[Cardigan99]

Matt

could be I may have misunderstood the concept of 'tapped out'. Somewhere along the line I got the impression that maples had a 'tap life' for lack of a better word because maybe the bush was in decline due to over tapping or age of the stand.

PA,

just my observation, I hung buckets on a big twin red maple last season and I emptied them faster than the buckets I had on sugars though most of my sugars are pretty much bunched up and this red is in the wide open.

[royalmaple]

Beth, just one thing to consider is if you are taking 60 taps off of trees that are being over tapped now, you arent necessarily going to loose that much sap. So say those trees should be 1 or 2 tap trees but you have 2-3 in them then if you reduce the taps to what should be on them you're not going to see the same difference as if you didn't tap 60 trees with 1 tap in them. Does that make any sense?

Now if you add 120 taps all 1/tree on reds, you are definately going to see an increase in sap since they are not being over tapped and the loss you will see from the extra taps on the sugars should be more than made up for even if you went 1:1 on the reds for any sugars you pulled. Unless you are just not going to tap the sugars at all that you are pulling taps on. but since you have the tubing there just throw one tap in them.

[PA mapler]

Matt, I see what you're saying, and it makes sense. I hadn't thought that a tap on an over-tapped tree is probably not making an optimal amount of sap. And a healthy red maple might likely make the same if not more sap than the over-tapped sugar. At 300 taps, I was comfortable last year with maybe a little wiggle room if I added more, so I think I'll forge ahead and put on the reds and see how it goes. Seems a shame to go right by them, and since my sugar % is rotten anyway, why not? Thanks for responding!

[royalmaple]

You've already done all the work, so to not add them on(in my opinion) is crazy. But you would have to consider a couple things. Typically you will get less sap and less sweet sap from the reds and they will bud earlier than the sugars, the last one is for sure. But I have tapped some road side reds that I have gotten 3+ % out of them and I typically am in the high 1%(1.8-1.9)range on my wooded reds, last year I went to the last drop and it wasn't a sweet year for sugar and I did get sap in the 1.1-1.2 range. Made alot of commercial syrup but sold every drop. So personally I'd take a new look at your woods and add them on. If you ever add vacuum you'll be surprised what you can get out of them.

But I know guys tapping wooded sugars that are in the 1.6-1.7 sugar % as a rule too, so when you look at it that way they aren't that much worse.

[PA mapler]

That what my sugars were at, last year's weird year not much different from previous years, 1.5% to 1.9%. When I originally laid the lines out I was being a purist, and since about 85% of the trees in the bush are sugars, I bypassed the reds. But this fall when things slow down I'm going to take a pile of taps off the sugars and add the reds, I might aim for about 350 total taps. I might regret it (but not really!) next spring if I get the Big Run. I'm actually getting really curious to try this out. Thanks!

[220 maple]

Beth,
I have never past a red maple tree without tapping it, My friend and equipment salesman in Pa. Henry Breneman swears the syrup tastes better with the reds. The sap will probably be thinner meaning less sugar. Less sugar content makes longer boiling and usually darker syrup. Be sure to watch them closely, they will bud out very early. However if they do bud and the temp. drops to 17 or below they will reset and you will find all those swelled bud on the ground beneath the tree.
As far as over tapping, I going to paraphrase a Henry Breneman story. Someone Henry knows there in Pa. had leased a sugar bush. He had tapped by normal standards, no more than 4 taps in the largest trees. The owner of the land decided to cut the trees and had a state forester look the trees over, the forester told him they was not good for lumber because they had been tapped. He suggest that he continue to lease the trees but not let the syrupmaker tap the trees as hard. So the syrupmaker get a new lease goes back into the sugarbush an cuts taps from every tree he could. 4 to 3, 3 to 2, 2 to 1. Henry said the guy got more water from less taps. He has since that first bush has cut taps at other bushes and recieved the same results. I have done the same thing by taking one tap from a tree and added a new tree when ever possible. The new maple producer manuel suggest doing the same, apparently several large producer are cutting taps per tree.
My two cents.
Mark 220 Maple

[PA mapler]

Interesting, Mark. See, I didn't think much beyond the simple notion that each tap was kinda independent of any other on the same tree, and the only problem with overtapping was the extra injury to the tree. But from what you've found, it's alot more complex than that. So in a way it's like drilling gas wells. You drill one, and get lots of gas, drill a few more around it, and you get gas, but the pressure ends up going down in all the wells, including the original.

If this is true, and I remove a pile of taps off my sugars then tap the reds, I might end up with quite a increase in sap volume overall. I'll do it!

[220 maple]

Beth,
This sap flow thing is one of the remaining mystery of life. My father learned by walking thru a sugarmakers woods in Highland County, Va. That syrupmaker used the theory that you put a tap every hammer handle lenght apart. We had trees with as many as 8 taps in them. My father past away in 2002 and every season since then I have been cutting taps and adding more trees. If I have read the new North American Maple Producers manuel correctly they are promoting two taps max per tree no matter how big the tree is. The manuel said 4 taps max. they just feel 2 taps will do the job. I agree because it a pressure thing. Thats why vacuum makes a big difference.
The best thing that could happen for you is to take the taps from the sugars that you feel are overtapped move them to the Reds, and hopefully you will recieve the same amount of sap from your sugars plus gain extra from the newly tapped reds. I believe this is a win - win move!
Mark 220 Maple

[sapman]

I was just reading through this old thread, and wanted to mention something that Tim Wilmot from UVM found in his research. They found that adding a 2nd tap added 50% more sap over 1 tap, and adding a 3rd only increased sap by another 15%, on average. So the increase for the 3rd tap really isn't justified, considering increased stress to the tree. That said, I have some big roadside trees that will fill three buckets pretty consistently during good runs, so I still put 3 in on many trees, but perhaps I, too, should be reconsidering this.

At Bascom's a few years ago, the UVM guys were saying how they averaged over .6 gallons of syrup/tap. This was only putting one tap in a tree, no matter the size, as I understand it.

Tim

[maplecrest]

i went thru, and cut out taps 6 years ago, and my sap per tap increased. what made me take notice was a study that was done by placing die in the back side of the tree and tapping on the other. this was done under low vac. the die was in the sap on the other side of the tree. last year was my first year for tapping reds.[due to r/o] those trees ran right to the end with the sugars.

[PA mapler]

This is great to hear! I'm in the process now of cutting out third taps altogether, and even removing some second taps. I'd like to stay at 300 taps total, and am adding in reds for the sugars I've taken out. I'll be VERY curious to see how it works out. Hopefully I'll have more sap, since last year's runs were mostly disappointing.

[mountainvan]

I'm being the devils advocate on the 3rd tap. If you get 15% of your sap from a 3rd tap, at 30,000gals sap/ season= 4,500gals sap= 112 gals of syrup at $42/gal =$4704. That's a good chunk of change.

[PA mapler]

Now yer messing with my mind. . . . . :)

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

PA MAPLER i dont understand why you would tap reds and leave sugars.



RICH

[maplecrest]

mountainvan, i hear what you are saying. in my set up i have young new growth and very old trees that have been hammered on for 150 years. i was thinking of the health of the tree years down the road, more than my check book for this year.

[PA mapler]

Rich - I'm just reducing the number of taps on some of my sugars, and making up the difference by tapping reds. I've pretty much gotten all the sugars I can already without extending the mainline way up. I just put plain too many taps on some of them. Live and learn.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

OK that makes sense, you had over tapped

RICH

[drake1271]

If you want to help your trees go in and cut some of the ones that are not so good. keep in mind that your trees should not touch each other they need space the second year you will see a difference in sap volume.

[PA mapler]

Drake- that's the long-term goal. The woods haven't been cut for 50 years, and is badly in need of a thinning. I started last year in the top section and took out alot of big basswood and even a couple scruffy sugars, but it'll be a few years anyway before I can get the whole thing the way it should be. The few reds that I've tapped down around the sugar shack have nice big crowns, but for some reason they never seem to flow much. I have a 14" sugar with a poor crown next to a 20" red with a full crown, both on buckets, and the sugar makes 4 times the sap the red does.

I've put over 40 taps on reds on tubing up in the woods this month, and hope that they perform alot better than the few reds I've bucketed down here. I'm crossing my fingers!

[TapME]

Beth, I have sugars that are 20' apart that the sap flow is very irregular so some strange reason.

[PA mapler]

TapMe, you're right, who knows. Since some guys tap only reds, seems like they HAVE to be getting enough sap to make it worthwhile. If they only averaged 1/4 the amount of sap per tree as a sugar-only bush, I doubt it would be worth it. Maybe there's just a bigger variation from tree to tree in reds than in sugars, and the few I tapped were just duds.