CDL hobby working slow

[Asa Matras]

We've got a cdl hobby 250 thats performing like a single post 125. The saps been cold but shouldn't make that much a difference. The membranes are a season and a half old. We wash it like normal. Any ideas?

[nymapleguy607]

What are the flow rates when you benchmark the RO? If the benchmark has dropped by 15% of the flow when new, and the flow doesn't return after a regular soap wash you might need to do an acid wash on the membranes. I noticed my RO flow rates were dropping off and that is my plan once I get sap to concentrate and permeate to rinse with.

[Asa Matras]

When it was normal it put out 2 gpm each for concentrate and permeate. Now its at around 1 gpm each. How do you do an acid wash? The same as a soap wash? What kind of acid?

[nymapleguy607]

There should be something in the manual about acid washing. Generally citric acid is used to drop the ph and then circulated and sometimes left to sit for a period of time. This dissolves the minerals that get caught in the membrane. A soap wash is alkaline and meant for removing biological material not mineral.

[maple flats]

1. Do a soap wash then add clean water to wash tank.
2. Add Acid; follow directions on ACID WASH JAR.
3. Recirculate for 5 minutes.
4. Stop and let set 24-48 hrs, (up to 4 weeks
after season), do not freeze. Once acid wash is in the membranes, drain the wash tank and rinse it with water.
5. Now do a soap wash
6. Then do a 10 minute cold water rinse
7. Change pre-filter.

[Asa Matras]

Thanks for the responses. So where do you get the acid? Is that a maple related thing or do you get it somewhere else? Sorry for the dumb Qs.

[wiam]

Thanks for the responses. So where do you get the acid? Is that a maple related thing or do you get it somewhere else? Sorry for the dumb Qs.
I buy mine on amazon. Much cheaper than maple suppliers. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00GNBHPAS?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_t1

[Russell Lampron]

I was going to reply to this thread last night but my container of citric acid is in the sugar house and I had been out in the snow too much to go out again. What Dave said is the way to do it and the closer that you can get to the 48 hours the better. Have plenty of permeate on hand to do the washes and rinses. I bought my citric acid from Bascom's.

[Asa Matras]

Its got a 5 gal wash pail, any idea how much to put in?

[wiam]

Its got a 5 gal wash pail, any idea how much to put in?

My tank holds about 15 gallons. I put in 2 Betty Crocker frosting containers to get pH to about 2

[Asa Matras]

Thanks. I got it soaking with acid now. We'll see if that helps.

[Asa Matras]

So I soaked this twice. Once with a store bought acid and again with cdl acid, no difference. Still slower than a single post 125 gph hobby. Again these membranes are only about two seasons old now. Any clues?! Thanks.
By the way we're upgrading to at least a 600 next year. Currant ro cant handle the sap even working at full bore plus we're adding 700+ on vac next season.

[n8hutch]

What are your pressures like? Seems like if your Membrane was fouling that your pressure would be climbing? Running higher than the normal? I just got an R.O. this year so I don't really know that much about them. But is it possible that something mechanical is going on ,and not so much Membrane related?

[nymapleguy607]

Are you checking the ph of your wash solution a little bit after the initial mixing? If the PH is dropping you might not be getting all of the biofilm from the membrane. I just did an acid wash and soak on my ro, after the final soap wash I am getting flow rates better than when the ro was new.

[Asa Matras]

What are your pressures like? Seems like if your Membrane was fouling that your pressure would be climbing? Running higher than the normal? I just got an R.O. this year so I don't really know that much about them. But is it possible that something mechanical is going on ,and not so much Membrane related?Yes the pressure is higher like 225+ which is high for this machine at 50 degree sap.

[Asa Matras]

Are you checking the ph of your wash solution a little bit after the initial mixing? If the PH is dropping you might not be getting all of the biofilm from the membrane. I just did an acid wash and soak on my ro, after the final soap wash I am getting flow rates better than when the ro was new.No. Can you get a meter without sacrificing an arm and a leg? So you test the soap wash water a few mins into the wash?

[Russell Lampron]

No. Can you get a meter without sacrificing an arm and a leg? So you test the soap wash water a few mins into the wash?

You can get ph test strips at hardware and pool supply stores. Amazon and ebay may have ph meters that aren't too expensive too.

You test the wash water after it has had a chance to clean for a little while and add soap as need to get it to 11%. You want to test it before it gets too far into the wash cycle so that it will be right for part of the cycle that does the best cleaning.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Asa Take it from and old pro When the poop is hitting the fan and things are going south and you have tried every trick in the book and things are still on fire and things are running on the floor and your wife is looking at you as if you just sold her first born you haven't had a good sit down for about 3 days.

THERE AIN'T NO STUPID QUESTIONS

Unless its your mother in law asking what your plans are for next Wednesday around 5:00 to 5:32 depending on when Harold gets home from his Fracking protest and what you want as a side dish. REALLY go away.

[maple flats]

For the acid wash did you circulate it for at least 5 minutes before letting it set? Then after, you followed that with a soap wash and a permeate rinse, how long did you rinse? I do mine for at least 10 minutes.
In regular use what is your end of day routine for the R.O.?
I may be all wet since my RO is a different brand, but you say it normally gets 2 and 2 gpm, at what pressure are you running? I also have a 250 and I push it harder most of the time, so my flows with 40F sap are about 1.1 conc., and 3.1 permeate. I run at 270-275 if I am going to be near the R.O while it runs, if it is running unattended I turn it back to about 250. At that I still get about 2x permeate compared to concentrate and the total flow picks up slightly.
Many on here say they do a complete wash cycle at the end of each day, I do not. Unless performance tells me to, I start by pushing cold permeate thru and the conc. goes to the head tank for 5 minutes. Then I run a hot permeate wash (no soap), recirculating both conc. and permeate to the wash tank, except I start by adding more hot water while it is running and until the membrane canisters get warm, I send the permeate portion back to the permeate tank. Once the membranes are up to at least 105F to max 113F start my timer for 10-15 minutes. Then I run a cold permeate rinse for 8 minutes minimum but since I have a lot of permeate I often run it for 15-20 minutes. When I do that part, the concentrate is going to drain and the permeate is going back to the permeate tank.
While I run at 270-275 to concentrate sap, when cleaning in all stages I set the pressure so both flow meters are essentially equal flow.
For me this method has worked perfectly since my second season in 2013 on my R.O. (the first I used a soap wash then a rinse). After I had done my method for 3 seasons I send my membranes to Lapierre for commercial cleaning and testing. The report came back that they were at 101% (not sure how they got to better than 100%).
Unless I have an issue where the flows change from normal, I only need a soap wash and then an acid wash (2-3 weeks), followed by a long permeate rinse, then I put my preservative in and then close the flow control needle valve, drain the pumps, drain and rinse the wash tank and put it to bed til next season.
Flows, my biggest day ever , I only had 2600 gal of sap, and I ran all day, from about 10 AM til 11PM, but it was all gone. (that was 1800 gal of my sap and 800 I processed for 3 other producers on shares.)

[Asa Matras]

First time: Ran the acid in for 10 mins and let soak for 48 hrs did a soap wash and rinsed with 200 gals. of permeate. Second time per cdl rep. instructions: used cdl acid and ran that like a soap wash up to temp let sit over night and just rinsed that out with 200 gal. of permeate.

[BAP]

Have you changed your pre filters a couple times threw out this course of washing to make sure flow isn’t being reduced as crap comes out of the membrane?

[Asa Matras]

Not though out the wash. Pressure isn't more the 10 psi different before and after the filter

[VT_K9]

We run a CDL 250 Hobby. The only time we get near 200-225 is at the end of the year when the sap is cloudy and we are running more than 500 gallons of raw sap through it. We run our sap through twice and sometimes recirculate to get close to 8%. I will at times run the concentrate a little richer, but nothing like mentioned here. I normally only do that on the first pass and in an effort to get to 4%. We have had our membranes tests a couple years in a row and let them go with storage solution once. They have always tested above 100%.

We do a regular wash cycle at the end of each day of running...new filter, 50 psi rinse for 10 minutes or 100 gallons of permeate, 40 psi wash with about 11-12ph (starting in the mid 70 degree range and the warming the solution up to get at least 10 minutes in the low 80s then warm it up until 84 when it shuts down), then a final 50 psi rinse for about 150 gallons. This has always worked well for us.

Mike

[Clamer33]

We are the same as VT K9. I have had my CDL 250 for 4 years. This year replaced the membranes. Whole other story. Today I have processed 1000 gallons of sap on the first pass started at 1.7%. Then a 150 gallon rinse and start processing the first pass a second time to about 7...+/- brix. the Conc. flow was at 1. Prem 1.5 We double pass all our sap. Pressure is never over 175 psi. Runs mostly around 100 psi at the start after a rinse and finishes around 175 psi after the 500-1000 gallons have gone thru. WE only do a wash if the pressure get close to 200 psi. (CDL soap 3 large table spoons - PH 12 with test strips, start with warm water 70 degrees and run till machine stops are 84 degrees.) 400 gallon rinse.) Maybe 2 to 3 times thru the season. However we do 50 psi of 150 gallons rinses everyday, or between passes. We have 800 taps on high vacuum so we are always waiting on the RO. I have talked to both my rep and a CDL tech many times over the flow rate. The 250 flow rate is base on a measure when your rinsing. Conc. 4 gpm and Pem 2 gpm for a total of 6 gpm x 60 =240. I can assure you 100% you will never see that number when concentrating. With a fully washed membranes, new or not my machine is around 1.25-1.5 on both flow meters. meaning 150-180 gph. That is what you will see. Anything else upgrade like I am doing.