question on a new bush

[metalhead62]

so i think next year i got a new bush about 120 taps relatively flat with about a 3foot deep ravine running about 30 40 foot off center and about 400' length.overall size of the lot is about 350x550 remote so no power i can use tubing but it has to be removed every year so i am thinking run a 3/4" main down the ravine with a slight 1,5 to2% grade to the center with a surflo pump for vac but then do i use 3/16 or 5/16 for laterals and then can i run the lats that far my thought is go 3/16 for lats with 5/16 drops but how many taps per lat i dont think the surflo will handle much more mainline anyway if that much am i even close with this thinking thanks

[Cedar Eater]

I would use 3/16" lats if you can confine them to less than 25 taps ea. The reason being that you can expend way less effort sloping them. I would also use 3/16" drops to get the maximum amount of gravity vacuum. I think that personally would skip the mainline and just run all 3/16" lines right to the Shurflo. The mainline doesn't really gain you anything with only 120 taps.

[metalhead62]

cedar thanks for the input if i run just 3/16 i would have runs of 5 or 6 hundred feet i thought you were supposed to keep them under 100 ft and less than 25 taps on vacuum with no grade i dont know what im doing ive only run buckets and bags just asking trying to get all the standards straight ive read and reread i cant seem to keep it straight i did read about 1 guy running 1200 ft with 1 3/16 line somewhere but i lost that thread didnt see how it worked out for him trying to get some thing going in my own thread so next year i can go to this thread and sort it out instead of going back and reading all these different threads all over again lol thanks for the advise

[Cedar Eater]

3/16" line is still relatively new in the bush and a lot of experimenting is still going on. Some "rules" have been disseminated that may only be appropriate for large commercial processors who are trying to get every last drop of available sap through their lines to maximize profit. But 3/16" lines provide a great opportunity for smaller operations to get more sap, keep finicky trees like reds flowing when they would have stopped, and cut down on the overall effort of collecting sap. So feel free to try different strategies because the investment in 3/16" tubing with cheap RV water pumps is much lower than the more traditional methods of mechanical vacuum.

Last year, I experimented with an 800' line that had 45 taps on it. It was a fairly level line with some ups and downs and it had a $16 pump on it. It flowed very well, but I think I would have done better if I had split it into two smaller groups of taps. The line length isn't really important for 3/16" except as it contributes to the total amount of volume that the pump must evacuate, so I wouldn't hesitate to put up to 3000-4000' total of 3/16" line on one or two Shurflos, because that is still a small amount of volume. If your collection point is centrally located, and you're only going to be doing 120 taps, that's going to be best with 5 or 6 lines with the furthest spout on each line tapped high on the tree and a small amount of effort to get some slope going to the collection point If you have 3-5' of up and down on the path to the collection point, that won't be a problem, but check valve spouts will minimize the amount that the trees suck back in when they start to freeze.

[maple flats]

With 3/16 there is no max length, but only if you have slope so gravity can work for you. Hybrid systems with 3/16 tied to vacuum do not have that same guide line without the feet of drop.
I have a few lines that are actually pulling up hill a little ( maybe 4' max) on 3/16 at my woods where I have 26-27" vacuum. They seem to flow good but I have no gauges at the far end to let me know how much vacuum I've lost. Most of those woods are on 5/16, my only 3/16 there is where I had to pull sap from a low area. My longest lateral on that group of 3/16 is maybe 150'. I'm also planning testing two with 3/16 and about 5' below the releaser. One will be about 150' long and the other might be 200' long, 1 sugar maples, 1 silver maples. Both are across the driveway from the releaser, so they will then climb about 12' on one side of the driveway and then down the same on the other side before attaching to the mainline just before the releaser which is at 26-27" vacuum. I also plan to add 1 other line about 250-300' long, all on reds and silvers and maybe the last tap will be about 5' below the mainline it will connect to. All 3 of those are for a non scientific experiment. If they don't work OK I'd need to add a sap ladder on them to lift the sap. I'm thinking the ones going over the driveway will balance out after the line drops back to just above the height of the mainline near the releaser (and about 25' away.) The 250-300' one will be to determin if I need a mainline to add maybe another 30-40 taps in a swampy area about 5' lower than the releaser location.
When you try doing these type of areas with a diaphragm pump I don't know how long you can go, but my guess might be in the 200 area, then for every foot of drop you might be able to add maybe 50' more in length. You must realize I'm just figuring and guessing in my head, I have nothing to back it up.

[metalhead62]

so on 3/16 im good to 25ish taps per lat with minimum slope and vacuum what if i brought that to say a 5/16 minimum slope main?

[maple flats]

Forget the 5/16 main, go the distance with 3/16. If that is too far, use 1/2" or 3/4" main but then the mains must have slope. For your drops, I suggest you use 5/16 drops, because you then get less sap pulling back into the taphole upon freeze up or the vacuum pump getting shut off. According to Tim Wilmot who pioneered the 3/16 tubing method stated in a presentation at the Jan. maple conference at Verona, NY this year, he said to use 5/16 drops, there is not enough vacuum gained in the drop, and the fact that the sap does not pass the gases in 3/16 means that as the tree freezes up the sap in a 3/16 drop is pulled back into the tree. That will dry the hole quicker.

[Cedar Eater]

A 5/16" tube is only big enough for the flow from three 3/16" lats. That's not worth the bother. A 1/2" main or just taking all the 3/16" runs the whole distance makes more sense.

[Cedar Eater]

Forget the 5/16 main, go the distance with 3/16. If that is too far, use 1/2" or 3/4" main but then the mains must have slope. For your drops, I suggest you use 5/16 drops, because you then get less sap pulling back into the taphole upon freeze up or the vacuum pump getting shut off. According to Tim Wilmot who pioneered the 3/16 tubing method stated in a presentation at the Jan. maple conference at Verona, NY this year, he said to use 5/16 drops, there is not enough vacuum gained in the drop, and the fact that the sap does not pass the gases in 3/16 means that as the tree freezes up the sap in a 3/16 drop is pulled back into the tree. That will dry the hole quicker.

That is very good to know. It can save you from having to use check valve spiles and it gives you a much greater selection of spiles to choose from.