Sap ladder air leaks

[blissville maples]

The last few days have been mid 30s. With the air leaks on my sap ladder as we all know any leak with the cool temps create a wind chill and freeze the leak shut( always have higher vac when near freeze bc all leaks freeze up and seal). However how do you keep the necessary air leak open for the sap ladder to remain working? Cotton ball maybe?? Been tough last few days if it freezes completely shut the sap will not lift......

[Haynes Forest Products]

I come from the old school thinking that any air leak is a bad leak. I don't subscribe to the adding a small leak in the line will increase the sap flow. SO with that said I would seal them up until further notice.

[blissville maples]

I come from the old school thinking that any air leak is a bad leak. I don't subscribe to the adding a small leak in the line will increase the sap flow. SO with that said I would seal them up until further notice.

Unfortunately if you seal them up you will get no sap flow when you run High vacuum there is no air in the system therefore a sap ladder cannot work as sap must ride up on a bubble of air, and with high vacuum there is not enough air in the system to move sap upwards. If your sap ladder Works without an air leak you have a hollow tree or air coming in somewhere you don't know about because a sap ladder will not work unless there is a pressure difference that's why most sap ladders will never run above 22 to 25 in because there has to be a air coming into it and if there's air coming into it hi Vacuum cannot be achieved

[blissville maples]

I realize it seems crazy to plug every other leak in the bush but introduce one on a sap ladder. But I didn't make the rules of physics I just have to abide by them

[n8hutch]

Have you ever tried a 3/16 sap ladder? I was told by Mike Farrell? From Cornell that a 3/16 ladder is much more efficient at moving sap but I haven't tried it yet, haven't had time.

[blissville maples]

That's interesting I would not think it would conduct enough air. Breezyhill is quite good with sap ladders from what I take and last time I was speaking with him he was saying that the half inch risers work better. He states that they thaw quicker and move a bigger air bubble which intern moves more sap per bubble I have not tried the half inch risers yet, I seem to be happy with the 5/16 however I would like to try.

[n8hutch]

I think the idea is that the sap will climb up the tubing better because of the smaller diameter of the tubing, so rather than sap pooling at the bottom of the ladder it will rise in many small drops up the ladder, of course you would need more ladders than with a 5/16 setup. If I get a chance to try one this year I'll post the results.

[Clinkis]

3/16 ladder makes a lot of sense. When you think about the physics that makes 3/16 effective it makes sense that it should work well for sap ladders. I’ve had the same problem as Bliss with my ladders. They just wouldn’t work properly without installing little leaker valves to inject a little air. Be curious to know if this would resolve this issue. Be sure nice to not have to introduce a leak into a system you spend so much time trying to keep tight.

[blissville maples]

[QUOTE=Clinkis;348078]3/16 ladder makes a lot of sense. When you think about the physics that makes 3/16 effective it makes sense that it should work well for sap ladders. I’ve had the same problem as Bliss with my ladders. They just wouldn’t work properly without installing little leaker valves to inject a little air. Be curious to know if this would resolve this issue. Be sure nice to not have to introduce a leak into a system you spend so much time trying to keep tight.[/QUOTE
Maybe I guess the weight of the sap would be less which makes an advantage. proof's in the pudding I guess. many things I would like to try as well but I will probably never have the time.... Looks like the sap just started running really nicely so going to be busy in an hour or two.......

[GeneralStark]

there is no air in the system therefore a sap ladder cannot work as sap must ride up on a bubble of air, and with high vacuum there is not enough air in the system to move sap upwards.

The trees introduce air into the system...

If your sap ladder won't work as it is frozen due to a leak, then perhaps you should try eliminating the leak. What do you have to lose? If you listened to Breezy then you used a needle valve to inject air. Try closing it.

[Ultimatetreehugger]

I use a 3-way 3/16th ladder on 20 inches of vacuum on about 120 taps with no leaks. Works great.

[Moser's Maple]

I too tried the leaker thing, but once hitting high vac 27 plus the ladder would prematurely freeze. The leak was added to stop pooling issues. So in the end i did away with the leaker, and on the 1 ladder I added 2 more 6 way stars( making it a total of 5 on a 1 inch line picking 150 taps 18 feet). On the other side of the road I added 2 more 1/2 inch pipes (6 total picking 180 taps 18 feet). I now have no leakers, no pooling, and have 28.5 at releaser, 27.5 500 feet out at the ladders, and 27 1200 feet out at the end of the mainline.

[BreezyHill]

Unfortunately if you seal them up you will get no sap flow when you run High vacuum there is no air in the system therefore a sap ladder cannot work as sap must ride up on a bubble of air, and with high vacuum there is not enough air in the system to move sap upwards. If your sap ladder Works without an air leak you have a hollow tree or air coming in somewhere you don't know about because a sap ladder will not work unless there is a pressure difference that's why most sap ladders will never run above 22 to 25 in because there has to be a air coming into it and if there's air coming into it hi Vacuum cannot be achieved

I agree on most parts except for no air to reach high vac.
To reach high vac your pump must be able to remove the gases introduced to the system(tree or injector) quicker than it is coming in to the system.

Yes an injector if placed poorly can freeze a ladder sooner than the trees will stop flowing. If it is correctly installed not in close proximity to the ladder the freeze effect will be insufficient to freeze the main. One can also install the injector in a side lateral and eliminate the freeze factor in the main.

Personnaly I have not had to run an injector open so much as to cause a ice dam situation. But with all of my injectors at peak flow setting and the system plugged off aster a rinsing there was less than 1/10th of a cfm added to the system from the 12 injectors.

I have had an ice dam build in my Pyrex tubing system in the sap house from a leak of a connector gasket that had a small crack. The leak was on the bottom and the ice would build up at the point of the leak. Spin the connection 180 degrees and the dam would wash away, with the leak on the top of the glass line.

For me under 27 is a major disappointment. When the guage reads 29 I am happy. Satisfaction is when it is bouncing just past 29.

If one is looking for a rule of thumb 50' from the ladder for an injector, installed on a saddle on the top of the main or in a lateral line that only has a couple of taps. I like 1/8th inch needle valves. Normal setting on my 1/2" riser ladders is open to one half turn to pull the needle away from the seat and turn closed 1/4 of a turn. Adjust a peak flow of sap, and let her run. To get vac past the ladder there can not be any pooling at the ladder base.

When I close mine the ladder stops and the sap backs up. But please, do remember that if you already have enough tree gases and breaches in the system, adding more bubbles will be of no positive influence. So seal them up and don't worry.

May you all have a great season!

[blissville maples]

Do you buy the injector or make your own somehow. I use a screw and put a small leak at the end of the farthest lateral- however at 32-35 degrees they freeze, and sap ladder stops.......I'll get er Sooner or later I'm thinking cotton ball to act like insulation and potentially stop the wind chill effect

[Moser's Maple]

I could be wrong here, but I don’t think it is a wind chill effect you are fighting. Instead you are fighting the Venturi effect. What causes this is any ambient air entering the vacuumized tubing system. It really starts to show up when temps are mid 30’s. This is why many producers that run high vac will find bad saddles because they are covered in a layer of frost, and producers running lower vac don’t seem to find the phenomenon. Again I could be way off with this too

[BreezyHill]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Needle-Valve-90-degree-1-4-Compression-X-1-8-Mip-Anderson-759103-0402/292428784429?epid=1100378481&hash=item44161d232d:g:Sw8AAOSwdB5alcWI

Follow the link to an example of what I use. Please search out a better deal. They are out there.

My first leaker was by using a 28 ga needle to make a hole in the lateral line. It was way to big so I used a tool my dad made.
17992

The needle valve with the gauge was very useful to see the result of every adjustment to the valve.

The science behind the ice is best described by something we all use. We add a pressure valve to the top of a radiator to increase the boiling point. When the coolant blows past the cap it often turns to the next state...gas(vaporized). So what is happening in our vacuum system is moving from liquid to solid due to the rapid drop in vacuum.

So if the liquid is not next to the point of rapid change as in the top of the main, there is less chance to dam up the main.

Yes the immediate area will be cooler than the rest of the main but the flow of warm sap is usually able to keep the main warm enough since the trees will chill before the woods floor temp drops below freezing. Now this is my understanding from what I recall of physics and experience in the bush.

I have seen a leaking saddle on a cloudy day have a frosted appearance. I look at things different than many. Everything is a learning experience. There is a reason what you are seeing what has happened... so figure out why and how it happens and how you can use it to increase production.

I am not the first person to make a ladder and I bet my Dad wasn't either. It is just a tool that helps me get all my sap to the sugar house without having to transport any.

I don't see any reason that a cotton ball will benefit the injector since the ambient air is warmer than freezing. So more air would be better than less, I think.

I will get a pic of one of the injectors tomorrow. I screw the 1/8th pipe thread into a piece of 5/16 tubing. Warm a small section of tubing 4", in hot water and screw on the valve. It takes a moment to do. Then attach to a saddle or tee or a "y". Then adjust it to the smallest amount of bubbles to keep the main clear of pools.

If is far easier to answer a simple question than to correct a simple mistake. So ask any questions. If I cant answer on the many others that use ladders can.

[blissville maples]

I'm going to try and rig a needle valve, or something similar to what you have three and out it on it's own lateral line at end of main where it will not be exposed to the sap from the tree at all, maybe that's where my issue is I have my leak on a live lateral line from a tree and that's where the icing starts because of the sap so if I rigged it up on its own lateral line it should never ice.

I guess seem to think that it's a wind chill effect because how else could it freeze at 34 degrees, it's frustrating I can say that, other day " I hate sap ladders"!

[Moser's Maple]

1799438 degrees. Temps were falling.

[maple flats]

I'm only guessing but I think the needle valve should be on the main. On a main, in the top, you have more sap flowing past to keep the venturi effect from freezing the line. If you install the needle valve in a lateral with few taps you have little chance of keeping that from freezing. While my system only runs at 27", I use Breezey's method and I get good lift and sap flow up the ladders. 27-27.5 is the best I can get from my BB4 pump, maybe a rebuild could help, but unless the vacuum drops below 24 I won't likely rebuild it.

[Haynes Forest Products]

All my woods go thru sap ladders and I have 10 mainlines with 3 ladders each plus 3 in the woods for a total of 33. I love sap ladders because its the only way I can lift sap into my releaser on a tank. Now Dr Perkins talked about REPLICATION and I just don't have the ability to pay attention long enough to see if leaks help or hinder.

Now I see some funny things done in the name of SETTLED SCIENCE. Like when people point there car or truck in a certain direction to keep the cold from blowing thru the radiator. I was told that the wind chill only effects living tissue I changed a lot of my thinking. Yes standing behind a building on a cold windy day will help keep the wind chill down. but I bet if you put 2 thermometers out in the cold one in the wind one in a windless area they would both read the same.

Im glad that the term Venturi effect was mentioned by Moser because it will effect liquids differently than gasses. Take a carburetor that freezes up or vapor locks. I blow out sprinklers every year about 450 and warm compressed air with moisture in it will freeze the brass fitting at the end because the air is passing thru the small brass end and expanding causing a cooling effect that will freeze it shut when temps hit a certain low.

Now Im just injecting a little humor here. No you can't defy the laws of Physics but isn't that what we spend most of our time doing TRYING to defy the laws by making liquids go up as the gas goes down in a closed vessel? Make cold moisture laden air raise up when its fog that wants to settle. We put a big tank in a vacuum line and call it a booster? We cook a very delicate sugar laden liquid on a violent, as hot as we can make it fire as fast as we can and then drain it off before it burns. Liquids can only absorb so much heat at a given rate and yet every day someone wants their flat pan to perform like a flue pan. They buy a small bildge pump and want it to shoot sap at 30 GPM up 25 ft. Fart in a VW beetle with the windows up and hope our girlfriend wont notice. :confused:

[GeneralStark]

I can't stand sap ladders...but the threads about them are always the funniest...:lol:

[Haynes Forest Products]

General are you saying there funnier than the ones about sap lifters. I was given 2 brand new sap lifters and they sat in storage for 2 years before I gave them back and they were passed on to some other poor SAP ( pun intended) :lol:

[BreezyHill]

No you can't defy the laws of Physics but isn't that what we spend most of our time doing

It is so refreshing to see posts from people that aren't living on the negative side of the half full glass.

Flats on the BB4 that is awesome vacuum levels. You could see if a little vac oil on the top of the piston would enhance the vac reading. A dripper on the inlet to let from a hit and miss style motor is the best way. A small 1-2 ounce dripper will insure she is not over oiled. The oil will seal any minor scores on the cylinder wall. If there is no increase then no reason to bother with a rebuild. 10 drips to start and then a drip or two a minute while running should do the trick.

[blissville maples]

Maybe she farted in the car too and didn't want to say anything....

[GeneralStark]

General are you saying there funnier than the ones about sap lifters. I was given 2 brand new sap lifters and they sat in storage for 2 years before I gave them back and they were passed on to some other poor SAP ( pun intended) :lol:

I can't wait to get rid of my sap lifter...