Thoughts on Thinning the Sugar Bush

[ibby458]

We're in the process of putting up sugarwood and thinning our bush. It looks so easy in the nice pictures in the maple manuals. They don't picture the 12' tall wall of prickly ash, thorn apples and hawthornes around each clump of trees. Just GETTING to the maples often takes hours.

Then there's the decisions. Which to cut out, and which to leave. I had two nice black maples yesterday, about 6 feet apart. One was almost 10" DBH, but with a weak crotch. The other was only 5" DBH, but had a perfect crown. I could tap the bigger one now, but would have to wait years to tap the smaller.

I ended up cutting the bigger one. It was the right thing to do, and I got more sugarwood from it. Still - It'll be a long wait til the other is tappable.

And there's the occasional "oops!" I've been teaching my younger sons to fell trees. There were 2 maples about 8' apart. One was about 8" DBH, and the other a bit smaller. THe Smaller one had been strangled by grape vines (OH - how I HATE grape vines!) and dying. Since the smaller one was clear of brush,
and leaning towards an open field, I told my son to go drop the dying tree.

I was clearing brush away from another clump when I heard a shout. My son had been so intent of clearing his work area and escape path that he lost track of which tree he was supposed to cut. He had taken a big wedge out of the wrong tree! I didn't think there was much chance it would heal it, so we cut both trees. A lot more wood, but I would have rather had that nice tree standing.

Speaking of wood - Hard maple works so well for boiling with, but it always smacks of cannibilism to me.

[Fred Henderson]

The best way to know what healthy looking tress to thin is to test their sap sugar content now. Just a very small hole to collect enough sap to put on the refractor meter. As for cutting mark the stump with paint and again at breast high, the cutters should be able to see that.

[royalmaple]

Yesterday I spent about 1/2 a day in the woods out back of my house thinning. My land here is so thick it isn't funny. So I want to do all I can to help what I have take off and grow.

I was just going through and cutting around the maples, cutting the white ash, popple, white and yellow birch, spruce, white pine, hemlock and oaks. Most everything is 8" and under. I can't wait to see how the maples respond, but they were chocked out for sure. And alot of the maples I have out back are regeneration growth from stumps, but are now getting to be 4-6 inches. And on many of these clumps I just cut the dead shoots and left the rest to see what happens. I mostly wanted to hammer the non species first then worry about thinning the maples.

Since I was alone, I just cut them and layed them down. I'll come back later and get the wood with my tractor. It is so thick that every tree I cut won't just drop everything is tangled up and had to be pushed over. It does look so much better with the openings from where I cut.

Only a couple thousand trees more to go.

[ennismaple]

Get yourself a brush saw - kinda like a weed whacker with a blade instead of a string. It's the only way we can keep the prickly ash under control. Where it's bad we simply brush around the tree and then brush out where the lines will be between trees so we can tap without getting cut to bits.

[ibby458]

I really should get a brush saw, but even then it won't work everywhere. Some of that darn Hawthorne is so thick you gotta crawl under it to cut it off.

I'm seriously considering fencing the whole 4 acres with 4 strand electric fence and turning 100 goats out into it. After they eat the leaves, I'll cut the brush and throw it into piles to be burned. Once cleared, I'll take the fence down and send the goats to the auction. (Can't use a brush hog due to knee high rocks everywhere)

These maples are in clumps here and there, with lots of non-maples between them. I'm cutting roads (paths) to each clump, and cutting out anything that's shading future tappable maples. If it's REAL thick, I'm taking out half now, half later. Since my goal is also sugarwood, I'm concentrating on the bigger ones shading good maples.

[barkeater]

regarding thinning, I did read where you can sunburn the maples if thinned too much to quick.

also of interest, I used to cut all the standing dead trees, but have read recently that you should leave a few for the birds...woodpeckers and such..

Tim McCarthy

www.timmccarthyarchitect.com

[maple flats]

You also don't want a pure maple stand. With it there is much more chance of disease problems in the mapes. Your best stand usually has several species but you do want a majority of maples. Do get rid of all beech, poplar and hawthorn in the maple stand. Do not open an area too fast. You will do best if you just open 2 sides first and as that space begins to fill in then open up the other 2 sides

[oneoldsap]

We like to take out all soft woods and nut bearing trees as they attract red squirels and I hate those little buggers,they can mess up a lot of tubing. We dont cut many maples, with the wind we get mother nature takes care of most of that for us.

[Parker]

I have noticed a huge diffrance in sap volume and sugar % in the young stands I have thinned,,less noticabel in the mature stands,,

[ibby458]

I didn't get much further on this project, but since I won't be tapping it for 5+ years, I guess that's OK. (I have about twice as many taps lined up as I can use).

It's satisfying to see the stand get cleaned up, getting ready for future tapping.

[Revi]

I found a bunch of maples that have grown a lot after our thinning about 5 years ago. There were a lot that had grown in and are now tappable! Over 10 inches and they were only around 7 or 8 when we did the thinning!

This thinning thing works!

[ibby458]

The maples I was talking about in the above abut the new property we just bought. (THe other half of the sugarbush, in fact.) Now we're extended our previous work into the new areas.

It's amazing how well the ones we released 2 years ago responded! Longer limbs, new limbs started and I swear bigger DBH, although I never measured and recorded.

Since there's not much time betwixt now and tapping, we're concentrating on getting the cedar and brush away from the tappable trees. Almost every bigger maple on the west side of the hill is surrounded by a thick clump of tall cedar trees. I wonder if it's because the area protected by the cedars was more suitable for maple seed germination and growth.

[DrTimPerkins]

I have noticed a huge diffrance in sap volume and sugar % in the young stands I have thinned,,less noticabel in the mature stands,,

There is a strong correlation between tree radial growth and sap volume. A lessor relationship with growth and sugar %, but still not bad. So whatever you can do to increase growth will most likely increase sap yield.

It is important to leave some amount of non-sugar maple (even red maple is good) to provide natural breaks for reducing disease and insect outbreaks. Even 25% non-sugar maple content is beneficial. It also helps in nutrient cycling to have other species present...again, helping in growth.

Individual crop tree management in maple stands (releasing the crowns of your crop trees) is much more in vogue these days than simply cutting everything in the stand that isn't a sugar maple.

[maple marc]

Dr. Tim and Maple Flats....I would like to hear more about developing a mixed-species forest. How best to thin for diversification, but favoring Maples? I love Maples, but a monoculture does not interest me. I'd like to have some other species, for asthetics, wildlife, and potential timber. Heaven help us if that Maple-devouring Asian long-horned beetle gets into the sugarbush.

Also, in our area we have a Honeysuckle problem. It's a really bad invasive species that seems to flourish in a thin forest. Where you are, do you have this problem, and have you noticed that the Honeysuckle start up when you thin out trees?

Marc

[sapmaple]

I just finished thinning my east side of the bush (finally) but it looks real good to me now I got to get mainline and lats up before tapping about six weeks or so Hope the weather cooperates Had a big lone Hemlock in the middle of the bush needless to say that one is in the log pile now lots of young maples will get better light now

Had a leaning maple leaning into another maple was partly uprooted so thought I should cut it It ended up being lodged into the other maple , so i tried to pull it down with the farmi winch , ended up splitting the good maple in half I left the good half still standing I don't know if that one will survive :cry: know I wish I had left the leaner alone it was still alive

Rest of the job looks good It is real enjoyable to make inprovements to the woods guess its like weeding a garden but on a large scale and you get fire wood to boot

I also flatted any brush left to the ground so it will decompose quicker providing for the soil Deer like it too

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Tim and Maple Flats....I would like to hear more about developing a mixed-species forest.

Check out the 2006 edition of the North American Maple Producers Manual. Lots in there.

[ibby458]

I'm a believer about mixed forests. When the Forest Tent Catapillar was heavy everywhere else, I hardly saw any in my woods. Still - Some of the evergreens gotta go.

I'm a woodworker with my own sawmill, so growing hardwood of other species is also a priority. I also favor the scattered wild apple trees and tamaracks. (A very useful tree that doesnt seem to be popular for some reason) I'll definately end up with a very diverse wood lot.

Why remove all the beech? They're nice trees, too. Beech nuts attract too many squirrels?

My philosophy is to manage for good trees, regardless of species. In case of two equal trees competeing, I favor the maple over about anything else. (No black walnut or red oak here) I'm still leaving about 3 times as many maples as should be there when mature. In a few years, I'll cut any bad trees (weak crotches, small crowns, etc) taking out another 1/3. Then let them grow and see what develops. Probably the last thinning will/should be down with sugar testing, but I suspect that If I select for bigger crowns and vigoursly healthy trees, the sugar content will take care of itself.

[Hop Kiln Road]

[QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;89614]There is a strong correlation between tree radial growth and sap volume. A lessor relationship with growth and sugar %, but still not bad.

I'm working more along the lines of an orchard theory and by crown release and fertilization get radial growth of over 3/4" per year in the 6" to 10" dbh classes. I also think my site indexes are high, perhaps over 50, because these are the remaining sites where the maples are flourishing.

My question is can growth in sugar % be dramatically increased (doubled) during the life of a tree through intensive management or is sugar % more a factor of the individual tree's genetics?

Bruce

[maple flats]

Beech is an invasive. It spreads from underground roots spreading out and rather quickly taking over with new trees shooting up from the massive root network. Beech can quickly take over and choke out the maples and most every other species. Once established beech will be almost the only species in a large clump. Besides, beech is very low priced log prices, they do attract squirlls, also attract turkey and deer. Yes, I like deer but a healthy maple forest is more important to me.
If you walk an untended forest you will see these clumps of beech. Look at some and see that other species are rare within the clump. With the underground spread characteristic it becomes a nearly impossible task to keep one nice beech and eliminate all others on any scale. Do I have any beech? You bet but In the areas where I "save" the beech it is away from any maples and I thin those areas every year or 2. Other areas rarely get attention any sooner than every 5-8 years unless I am addressing a specific problem.
Read up on these things, I am not a forester but I have studied a lot on it, attended many discussions by Dr Peter Smallege, now Cornell's Director of the maple program. Peter puts on monthly webinars about forestry but rarely specific to sugaring. I also have a forest stewardship plan written for me by a NYS forester based on my goals of maple production, timber production (I have my own sawmill), and wildlife, mainly whitetail deer. The plan is written to address all three goals but in that order of importance to me. My plan was written in 2005 as a ten year plan and was written by a NYS frorster at no cost to me. I have no idea if this is still possible because of new budget problems in the state, but even if you need to hire a forester to do one for you it is worth it's weight in gold (or liquid gold) The state forester walked my woods with me and a volunteer (trained by Cornell) on at least 3 occasions and drew up an excellent plan. I had to read the plan andsuggest any changes I thought I wanted to better meet my goals before the Forester drew up the final plan.I highly recommend a forest stewardship plan for everyone who owns a block of timber. I don't think there is a min acre requirement for a plan but to consider Tree Farm status you must have at least 10 acres on a written plan and show progress over several years towards implimenting the written plan. Your woods will reward you and having a pro walk the woods with you on a personal goal level will work wonders towards maple and any other goals you may have for your woods. Good luck.
Sorry for going slightly off topic so much but in reality it is very much on topic, sugarebush management.

[DrTimPerkins]

My question is can growth in sugar % be dramatically increased (doubled) during the life of a tree through intensive management or is sugar % more a factor of the individual tree's genetics?

Sap volume is related more to the area of wood, particularly new wood. Sap sugar content is proportional to the density of ray tissue in the wood, which is much more under genetic control. Unlikely you can double sugar content over an extended time period by manipulating growth or nutrition (although I've seen trees growing next to leach fields with some great sugar content). However by increasing the radial growth you can increase sap volume, and by increasing crown growth, you can affect sugar storage, so both will happen to some extent. Fertilization, under the right conditions, can increase sap volume, and again, to a lessor extent, sap sugar content. See http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/fertilization_brochure.pdf for more info on fertilization.

[Hop Kiln Road]

So increased an increased growth rate produces a thicker (2X) cambium ring from a ray phloem which doesn't change its proportional size? Do the Cornell trees produce high sugar % from the same diameter ray phloem as found in 2% maples? Bruce

[DrTimPerkins]

So increased an increased growth rate produces a thicker (2X) cambium ring from a ray phloem which doesn't change its proportional size? Do the Cornell trees produce high sugar % from the same diameter ray phloem as found in 2% maples? Bruce

Not entirely sure what you're asking, but it is the density (# of ray cells per unit area), which is largely under genetic control, that dictates the sap sugar content. I don't have any experience with the Cornell seedlings, but I would imagine that they possess a higher density of ray cells than typical trees.

[Hop Kiln Road]

My underlying question is how much can the sugar content of sap be increased during the life of a tree under intensive management. I have trees ranging from 2% to 3.5%, and while their individual genetic make-up is unknown, the obvious difference is the sweeter trees have had less competition and unintended lawn fertilizer. Just moving a 6 to 12 inch dbh sugar bush sugar average from 2.0% to 2.6% over 10 years would have a huge economic impact.

The question I was trying to ask was, is there a relation between increased cambium growth and ray phloem density. Or, can the ray phloem density remain the same and the sugar content remain the same yet the cambium annual density double?

Bruce

[DrTimPerkins]

My underlying question is how much can the sugar content of sap be increased during the life of a tree under intensive management.

The base sugar content of the tree is primarily dictated by genetics. You cannot change that on an indivisual tree basis, but can thin the lower sugar trees out leaving the sweeter trees.

Both fertilization and thinning can (though not always) increase the sugar content of the sap for a period of time. A moderate amount, one-time fertilization (if appropriate and the right nutrients), will increase sap yield (sap volume x sugar content) for a period of perhaps 4-8 yrs depending upon several variables. This is a temporary increase, not permanent. You'd have to keep conducting the management (thinning and fertilization) to retain the benefit.

A couple of warnings however....don't use inorganic fertilizer if you're organic certified. Secondly, too much of the wrong thing may cause more damage than benefit. If you do decide to fertilize, get the advice of experts, have your soil tested, and go slowly (use modest amounts).

[ibby458]

If sugar concentration is mostly genetic, and most of my maple trees are offspring of what was there before, I'd think the sugar content would be fairly well standardized by hybridization. (I've got a mix of black and sugar maples, as well as I can tell)

I doubt I could afford commercial fertilizer for the sugarbush (If I even need it) But I am thinking of slinging a couple spreader loads of Komposted Kow Krap in there when I get around to cleaning the barn. Can't see how that could hurt anything.

I've found beech lumber to be quite handy for certain things, but I can buy what little I need. I've seen beech in clumps in other wood lots, but I've only got a few scattered small trees. Sounds like I need to get them out of there now!

Sure wish I had a delimber and a small firewood processer to hable all the 2-6 inch poles I gotta take out!

[DrTimPerkins]

If sugar concentration is mostly genetic, and most of my maple trees are offspring of what was there before, I'd think the sugar content would be fairly well standardized by hybridization.
...
am thinking of slinging a couple spreader loads of Komposted Kow Krap in there when I get around to cleaning the barn. Can't see how that could hurt anything.

Sugar concentration on an individual tree basis is largely genetic, however the heritability (ability to pass on a specific trait to offspring) for sap sugar content doesn't seem to be particularly high. This is especially true when you have open-pollenation, so don't know the genetics of the father tree. In that case sugar content might be very slightly higher than normal on a population basis, but not by much.

Manure shouldn't be a problem...we did some tests with manure and it worked fine. Might want to toss some lime in if you're soils are on the acidic side. Only thing I'd be careful of (if using tubing) would be to not sling the stuff all over the mainline and tubing system.

[ibby458]

No tubing here yet, so that's not a problem.

Specifically, my plans are:

Hand cut all the brush that we can, but some patches (Up to an acre in size) are so big, thick and tall that I've stalled a 40hp diesel tractor trying to bull thru it. Spray those clumps with glyphosphate when fully leafed, and cut after the foliage dies. (I'm not organic, and don't plan to be)

Leave all cut brush where it falls, and spray any new sprouts with glyphosphate. THEN, I'll spread the manure over the cut brush and around the maples to help with rotting the brush away.

Remove all the rocks that stick up above a few inches, so I can use the brush hog for future brush control.

Transplant baby maples from thick sections to areas lacking them. compost and mulch around the base and cage with tall wire. Water often with a sap tank on the 3pt. hitch of the tractor.

Do soil tests, and add whatever might be needed. I doubt it'll need much lime. These trees are basically growing in a mountain of jumbled limestone rocks. Any digging I've tried to do ends in rock. I expect to use the backhoe to make the hole for transplants, and refill with topsoil from the meadow.

[BarrelBoiler]

two things about manure.... chicken is high in nitrogen and i have known i tto kill saplings when applied with a heavy hand espically in a liquid form so check with your extension service about that

the other thing. my folks owned an old set of fram buildings with a big old maple out front. the porcupines got into both and it looked like the maple was a goner. the porkys hold up for the winter in some old brick work under the house and come spring when they left there was a big pile of droppings dad and i hauled those dropping up and spread them under the tree which thoroughly enjoy the extra nutrition and lasted another 25 years
my nickle:)

[DrTimPerkins]

I doubt it'll need much lime. These trees are basically growing in a mountain of jumbled limestone rocks.

Excellent. Maples are strong calcium demanders. They'll do alright in somewhat acid soils, but definitely like it a little sweeter.

Good luck.

[ibby458]

I HATE porcupines with a passion. They've girdled a bunch of nice smaller trees. I'm cutting all hollow den type trees, and put out a bounty on them. I pay my boys $10 for each porky they kill, and $1 for a gray squirrel;50 cents for red squirrels. They haven't seen any porkies or damage for a few years now, but the neighbor's dog is still getting quilled, so I know they're around somewhere.

[Mike G]

Many of my maples that are in the 10 to 15 inch range have come up from stumps, thus there are non-primary trunks off the same old stump origin. These non-primary trunks are 4 to 6 inches in diameter.

I will be thinning my small stand this month and wonder what the consensus is about pruning the secondary trunks. Should I leave them alone or should I prune and consolidate the single root mass to the primary trunk.

I've pruned some in the past and the sap runs like mad during tapping season as you can imagine. Is pruning doing more harm than good?

[markcasper]

My forester told me that the suckers should be thinned on sugar maple and that sugars compartmentalize the damage and prevent rot, in most cases, not all. This is not the same for red maples, where they are poor compartmentalizers of damage.

So in my woods all of the suckers have been marked for thinning, leaving the best. Obviously if there is a straight stem , that would be favored, but you have to work with what you have.