No more 3/16"- problematic

[blissville maples]

So this is my new take on 3/16 I had a Sugarbush which I was running 18 in and I said to myself well the 3/16 should boost that up so I added 300 taps on 3/16 all have 14-20 trees and over 30-40' drop. I have since replace my Dairy pump with an Air Tech which produces 28 and 1/2 in, I have a vacuum gauge attached to a short piece of 5/16 tubing where I can remove a spout out of a tree and do a vacuum test. I added a completely new run of 3/16 this year adding probably 20 trees the other day on Peak flow I want up and tested it it was around 18 in I was extremely disappointed I tested a couple others and I only had one that was above 20 it was at 25, whereas 10 out of 12 of them we're less than 20 in. I have found some Hollow trees which I removed did not seem to help. I do notice towards the bottoms the sap is moving faster through the line however not extremely fast indicating an air leak, there is still a full column of sap bubbles or a long bubble and then more full column of sap but it seems to be moving quicker than I think it should.

So basically my idea is on 5/16 you may run four-to-six Taps per line so if you have a problem you may lose one to six taps. However with 3/16 you could be losing up to 20 taps by one problem.... The other day I fixed 5 leaks which were costing me no production out of probably 120 taps if that was 5/16 it would have not been more than 25 tops.

So basically now that I have 28 1/2 inches up there I am losing High vacuum to probably 200 tabs maybe 250 because of the stupid 3/16 which two years ago I tore out the 5/16 to put this in and I've already started switching it back. as soon as the 5/16 goes back to the tree -28 in achieved.....

I do believe some things work great in the shop on paper however when you apply certain scenarios it's not always the case. I've ran up hill and down hill trying to find these leaks costing me hours and a lot of lost production.

[wurmdert]

I think that it would be difficult to square putting in 3/16 where there is already a vacuum system in place, unless it is used as a hybrid system. Half of the glamour of 3/16 is the low cost setup per tap with out electricity, vacuum pumps, releasers, etc. I have been using 3/16th for 4 years now and just like with any system its not perfect. I probably average 23" on most lines on the top taps. Leak detection is crucial, but I find very few new leaks once I get things tightened up at the beginning of the year. I am seriously thinking about a hyrbrid system next season using a Bosworth. Over all I am happy with it, it has close production comapared the full vacuum outfits in the area, 3 to 4 bucks a tap intall, yet vacuum leaks and sags are ignorant.

[blissville maples]

I was using a hybrid....dairy pump gave me 18" and was hoping the 3/16 would take it to 29" with the bill goat terrain it's at. I never tested it with the dairy pump, now I have the airtech I did test it and the results I posted, so this tells me I was probably less than 18 in on the 3/16 when I ran the dairy pump. I guess the thing I learned about that 3/16 is that it has absolutely no cfm's to it so one small leak and it's done. This year I have checked my twelve runs of 3/16 fixed all the leaks went back there ay later another leak again this is the second or third time this year and I'm losing so much sap because of this......I'm extremely frustrated, at least the vacuum pump has some cfm's behind it So on a line of 5/16 that has five to six taps if it has a leak it may only affect a couple of those taps but at least there's some vacuum there.....

[peteinvermont]

I'm with wermdurt - I love it, but only because my only alternative is 5/16 gravity. If I had the option of running mechanical, I'm not sure I'd ever roll out 3/16.

[GeneralStark]

I have a vacuum gauge attached to a short piece of 5/16 tubing where I can remove a spout out of a tree and do a vacuum test.

If I am reading this correctly, you are pulling the spout at the top of a line and then testing vac. by slipping the tubing on the gauge over the spout tip. If this is correct then you are likely getting an inaccurate reading and this is why. When you pull the spout, you introduce air to the system and have disturbed the column of sap in the line. It is this column of sap flowing downhill that creates the vac. in a 3/16 line.

If you were to crimp the drop on the line you are testing with visegrips with tubing on the grips (to protect your tubing), then pull the spout and attach your gauge and release the vise grips you would get a more accurate reading. Or better yet, T the vac. gauge into the top of the line at the end tree so you can see what the vac. is under normal sap flow conditions.

If I have your methodology correct and you are allowing air to enter the system, then your test is inaccurate, and your results are flawed.

[WESTMAPLES]

im running a small hybrid system the hills have 3/16th and the flatter areas 5/16th all into a main line under mechanical vac at 25 in and the gauges at the top of the 3/16th are buried past 28 in every time ive checked them with the pump on . im happy with it 3 seasons after installing itand its not a $0000 fancy system, but does make for decent gal per tap numbers when gathering. everyone has different situations , so maybe the 3/16th didn`t meet your outline of good production .....

[maple flats]

I also run with good success a hybrid system. On about 7-8 lines I have a gauge at the top tree and on 4 lines I have a gauge about 15-20' elevation above the mainline it empties into. That woods has a vacuum tank and I regulate the vacuum to 19". Then on the 2/3 of the bush where the 3/16 is practical because it has the necessary drop in elevation, on all I get 28-almost 29" on high barometric pressure days and on the 4 gauges lower down, it is either at that or less than 1 point less.
I'm with the General, your testing method is causing an error. It would take very little time, with 18" vacuum (on your old system) to empty the 3/16 line of sap, it had little or no sap left to give you any gain and with 3/16 being so small it did not get back up to even the vacuum the mainline had when you tested it. As said above, clamp the 3/16 line then pull the tap, or far better, just add a tee in the line where you want to get a reading and attach permanently a vacuum gauge. Those gauges will also help you identify when you have a leak.

[wurmdert]

Indeed I have permanent qauges on my lines. If I pulled the top tap, it would take quite a while for max vacuum to restore

[maple flats]

If I get a leak on 3/16, the gauges read real low after fixing the leak, but I never stood by to time how long it took to get back where it should be. I have a few times, on a return trip back across the hill maybe 30+ minutes later and it's back up however.

[5050racing]

Even though I have only 4 runs of 3/16"all 600-800' I have gauges at the top and 29" plenty of drop runs great,agree about having to wait till it runs to get a true reading,what you don't mention is what taps n tubing your using,that could be something to think about?im just a small hobbie guy 50 taps not to bash or anything like that just by chance I called a guy from CDL 4yrs ago and was SO HELPFULL so I bought from him. I like there 3/16 flex and use 5/16 to 3/16 taps and seem to be trouble free except for the squirrels love to chew it and I mean chew it so I remove n reinstall from now on less work I feel its easier to clean just me small operation,now I just bought some leaders 3/16 for another area next to me next year and will see if the squirrels leave it alone,now I also spoke with another great guy that sells leaders equipment and he helping me out to mention.He is a local guy so look forward to figuring out the best way for me!

[BSD]

it takes at least 20 minutes for my lines to recover if i have to open the system to swap a plugged T. my runs are average 500' long, some are 800. put a vac gauge at the top of each line. it costs me $8.50 to put a gauge on each one. $7.50 for a gauge and $1 for the little 1/4NPT to 3/16" adapter. you can make $8.50 of syrup in one collection if you can identify problems on your lines quickly. If you should be making 20" of vac due to your elevation loss, and the gauge is reading 10.... start looking about half-way down the line. I read all these horror stories about vacuum pumps failing, releasers sticking, main lines breaking, etc and i'm glad that i have 3/16 instead. both systems have their quirks, i'd rather have free vacuum, it never quits!

[gfm]

This is my second year with 3/16 and im very happy with its performance. Last year I had individual lives running into multiple collection points and was very please with amount a sap I collected. This year I put in (2)1" main lines with 2088 shurflo pumps. Each mainline having about 90 taps per main. I have vacuum gauges on the ends of the mainline and I get a steady 20"-22"vacuum when sap is running. All my laterals have 10-30 taps per run.

[peteinvermont]

Indeed I have permanent qauges on my lines. If I pulled the top tap, it would take quite a while for max vacuum to restore


If I get a leak on 3/16, the gauges read real low after fixing the leak, but I never stood by to time how long it took to get back where it should be. I have a few times, on a return trip back across the hill maybe 30+ minutes later and it's back up however.

I experimented with a single but accurate gauge last year, and if it was running hard, it was atleast 20 minutes to build vacuum again.

I don't post a ton in this forum and screwed up the quoting feature....basically I was trying to agree with everyone, including BSD below. Sorry for the bad post.

[wurmdert]

This is my second year with 3/16 and im very happy with its performance. Last year I had individual lives running into multiple collection points and was very please with amount a sap I collected. This year I put in (2)1" main lines with 2088 shurflo pumps. Each mainline having about 90 taps per main. I have vacuum gauges on the ends of the mainline and I get a steady 20"-22"vacuum when sap is running. All my laterals have 10-30 taps per run.

Does sags your mainline effect vacuum with the surflo or does it keep the pipe clear.

[blissville maples]

If I am reading this correctly, you are pulling the spout at the top of a line and then testing vac. by slipping the tubing on the gauge over the spout tip. If this is correct then you are likely getting an inaccurate reading and this is why. When you pull the spout, you introduce air to the system and have disturbed the column of sap in the line. It is this column of sap flowing downhill that creates the vac. in a 3/16 line.

If you were to crimp the drop on the line you are testing with visegrips with tubing on the grips (to protect your tubing), then pull the spout and attach your gauge and release the vise grips you would get a more accurate reading. Or better yet, T the vac. gauge into the top of the line at the end tree so you can see what the vac. is under normal sap flow conditions.

If I have your methodology correct and you are allowing air to enter the system, then your test is inaccurate, and your results are flawed.

I dont bring pliats, I simply kink the flexible drop line this stops vaccum completely to the line as so no air can get to thru line The only positive pressure I introduced Is about 3in from where I kink the line to the tap after I attach my gauge I then let the Kink go.... You can watch it Evacuate the air after I let go of the kink you have 17" after a couple minutes you might get 18 or 19. believe me I completely understand what you're saying and this is not flawed...... Just so you know out of my dozen runs two of them tested 25" so I am testing them correctly the other eight to ten or less than 20. I converted a hundred Taps back yesterday to 5/16...... At least with the 5/16 the leaks are easier to find because you're not running a 300-foot line and you're losing far less taps sometimes up to 20 on 3/16 lines when something happens

[blissville maples]

Next time to verify I will attach gauge, check rest of bush and then go back 20 mins..... However the fact that I've already checked one and it was 25-26 in and 5 minutes prior I checked a different one of them and it was 18" I don't think I am doing it wrong....I have enough common Sense to avoid that amature mistake, and I've already thought of the introduction of air reducing my reading....... something isn't right, and it may have to do with the fact alot of these older trees are hollow or have air in them( I've had pull6-8 spots from hollow spots brown gunk and air coming out this year) and it's Introducing too much air for the 3/16 to handle. I wish I had more time to diagnose up there( I've already spent a few hours trying to pinpoint exactly what is wrong, but I'm not the type of person to spend a lot of excess time on something I don't have time for that I change things to what i know does work, and I know with 28 almost 29 in at the pump that's the ticket......

[blissville maples]

So if I have a 300-foot line of 3/16 with 28in where it meets the main line and I go up three-quarters of the way or all the way to the top I see full column of sap bubbles full column of sap bubbles full column of sap moving at I don't know the pace of a turtle, this tells me I have no major air leaks would you not think there should be more than 28" up there? This is what baffles me if there was an air leak there would be no full Columns of sap.....

[wnybassman]

Has this particular pump ever been on a system getting more than 18"?

[twitch]

You guys got any suggestions on gauges to use ?

[jbutton]

You have 300 feet of 3/16? Is this 1 line? If so it might be to much line. Also I've checked my lines and noticed 1 line with bubbles I know there is a leak . Another there is no bubbles and flows a full stream. No leaks

[blissville maples]

You have 300 feet of 3/16? Is this 1 line? If so it might be to much line. Also I've checked my lines and noticed 1 line with bubbles I know there is a leak . Another there is no bubbles and flows a full stream. No leaks

I was wondering this but if enough drop line length shouldn't matter right?? The air bubbles look to be gas out of the tree, not microleaks.......but yes if there are bubble then must be gas from tree or air from leak...

[blissville maples]

Has this particular pump ever been on a system getting more than 18"?
This pump has never been used anywhere else, first time hooked up it was at 27.5, found some leaks now at 28.5

[wnybassman]

This pump has never been used anywhere else, first time hooked up it was at 27.5, found some leaks now at 28.5

I re-read it, I didn't pick up on the 3/16ths only being part of the entire system.

So, you were experiencing low 18 inches on an existing 5/16ths section, switched it to 3/16ths and experienced the same mediocre results. Started switching it back to 5/16ths and now experiencing better results? That leads me to ask why the original 5/16ths was not producing those better results in the first place?

In all reality, I am not sure why 3/16ths is being introduced into mechanical vac systems. Wasn't it developed for its great natural vac properties with the right slope conditions? And wouldn't mechanical vac negate any natural vac that might be created with slope? I realize when there is no sap flow, there is no vac with natural flow, and with a pump there is all the time. For someone like me that has no interest in adding a mechanical vac system, it is great getting 27+ inches during the runs.

[wurmdert]

I believe Mechanical vacuum is suppose to add to existing vacuum already in a 3/16th natural vacuum setup untill you reach maximum achievable vacuum based on elevation usually 27 to 30. There will almost always be some air bubbles in 3/16 lines from tree gas. Very rarely will they be a steady stream of sap. Deadwood and hollow trees Im betting is a culprit. Ive noticed these before when I used clear spouts. I could see almost like foam pulling from the tap into the line.

[DrTimPerkins]

...I am not sure why 3/16ths is being introduced into mechanical vac systems. Wasn't it developed for its great natural vac properties with the right slope conditions? And wouldn't mechanical vac negate any natural vac that might be created with slope?

The effect is additive (positive direction, not negative). Pumped vacuum + natural vacuum = total system vacuum.

Generally such hybrid systems are used in combination with low-moderate vacuum pumps (sap pullers, etc.). Pumped vacuum can aid in leak detection in 3/16" systems, and help to achieve high vacuum in trees that aren't as high up on the slope. Even in a high pumped vacuum setting, 3/16" tubing can add a little boost in production if you aren't quite at max vacuum levels with the pump alone and the 3/16" tubing is set up properly. The reason it isn't used more by producers with high vacuum pumps is that 3/16" clogs up a bit easier and is also more subject to sanitation-related drop off in yield due to higher backflow episodes.

Dr. Abby and I have an article coming out in an upcoming Maple News https://www.themaplenews.com/ that compares the hypothetical relationships between elevation, vacuum, and yield in gravity, natural (3/16") vacuum, hybrid, and pumped vacuum systems.

[wnybassman]

The effect is additive (positive direction, not negative). Pumped vacuum + natural vacuum = total system vacuum.

Generally such hybrid systems are used in combination with low-moderate vacuum pumps (sap pullers, etc.). Pumped vacuum can aid in leak detection in 3/16" systems, and help to achieve high vacuum in trees that aren't as high up on the slope. Even in a high pumped vacuum setting, 3/16" tubing can add a little boost in production if you aren't quite at max vacuum levels with the pump alone and the 3/16" tubing is set up properly. The reason it isn't used more by producers with high vacuum pumps is that 3/16" clogs up a bit easier and is also more subject to sanitation-related drop off in yield due to higher backflow episodes.

Dr. Abby and I have an article coming out in an upcoming Maple News https://www.themaplenews.com/ that compares the hypothetical relationships between elevation, vacuum, and yield in gravity, natural (3/16") vacuum, hybrid, and pumped vacuum systems.

Thanks for the explanation! That makes sense.

[blissville maples]

I re-read it, I didn't pick up on the 3/16ths only being part of the entire system.

So, you were experiencing low 18 inches on an existing 5/16ths section, switched it to 3/16ths and experienced the same mediocre results. Started switching it back to 5/16ths and now experiencing better results? That leads me to ask why the original 5/16ths was not producing those better results in the first place?

In all reality, I am not sure why 3/16ths is being introduced into mechanical vac systems. Wasn't it developed for its great natural vac properties with the right slope conditions? And wouldn't mechanical vac negate any natural vac that might be created with slope? I realize when there is no sap flow, there is no vac with natural flow, and with a pump there is all the time. For someone like me that has no interest in adding a mechanical vac system, it is great getting 27+ inches during the runs.

Originally two years ago I had a dairy pump of only 18 inches, my other s.b has high vac and I saw the difference so I wanted to get high vac on my trees with good slope here so some would be at 18 and some at 20+......now I have switch to an airtech, initially I was going to leave the 3/16 because I figured it would be high vac everywhere, but upon testing I am wrong, the 5/16 has high vac and only 20% of my 3/16 lines are even close to high vac. It's a pain to switch it all but it HAS to be done.....I'm just applying the in field variables to table top research and theres a flawless in it for me here..... however not all my runs of 3/16 have failed only most and I think old hollow trees are the culprit, I've retapped some but certainly not going to retap all of them to try to eliminate the air bubbles and small leaks.....

[gfm]

Wurmdert My mainlines are new this year so they are very tight no sags. I was having issues when I first put in the pump with sap backing up in mainline then it would pull and dump and then back up again. I took off pre screen filter and installed recirculation line and now it is a steady flow.

[wurmdert]

Wurmdert My mainlines are new this year so they are very tight no sags. I was having issues when I first put in the pump with sap backing up in mainline then it would pull and dump and then back up again. I took off pre screen filter and installed recirculation line and now it is a steady flow.

I was curious as I have wireless 1/2 inch in place as gravity mainlines. Im sure even the slightest sag with 1/2 in fills the tube. I would like to try a sap puller next season, but hate to replace my mains.