Getting to 18% with a 600

[Amber Gold]

I need to find a more efficient way to operate my 600 gph RO machine and get it to high brix. I set the RO at 5 gpm/5 gpm and 250 psi and let it run until the concentrate is around 8%, and then I turn the concentrate down to 2gpm, the pressure to 450 psi, and leave it until I’m out of sap. This’ll get me 15-18% which is great because I want to maximize efficiency and minimize wood use, but it takes forever to get there. I work all day, and don’t get the first load of sap home until say 4pm (or later) and offload/start RO machine. If I get a big day…say 1500-2000 gal, it might be 9pm before I get the concentrate where I want it.. Anecdotally, I think if I was to start earlier, and not have it concentrated as high, I’d still finish about the same time because I’d have to boil longer and burn more wood in the process. At 2gpm concentrate, it matches the evap, so once I fire it up, I really can’t get the concentrate level higher because it about matches the evap.

Is there a better way? Please enlighten me. Thanks!

[GeneralStark]

If you have the tanks, I suggest trying to run the raw sap through at higher pressure to remove more water on your first pass to a dedicated concentrate tank. Then run the concentrate through at about 50/50 (perhaps you can get higher water removal) to your head tank.

Circulating concentrate back to the raw sap tank is less efficient.

I used the method described my last boil. I had 1500 gal of sap. Ran it through ro once at about 320 PSI and perm at 7.5 gpm and conc at 2 gpm. Then I ran the concentrate through at same pressure and about 4.4 for perm and 4.2 for conc. The machine concentrated for under 3 hours and I could start boiling as soon as the last pass conc hit the head tank.

[Amber Gold]

Unfortunately, I'm not set up with a fourth tank. I have a sap tank on the bottom with a perm. tank above, and a separate head tank...see pic below.

I recirc with the sap tank until I'm ready.

If I wanted to (and not sure if it's a good idea), I could do as you describe, but I would have to send the concentrate to the permeate tank while dumping the permeate. When the sap tank is empty, drain the concentrate down to the sap tank, reset the valves, restart the RO running 50/50 with the concentrate to the head tank, permeate to the permeate tank. I would need to do some plumbing in the RO room to do this, and I wouldn't have enough permeate when I was done to flush the membrane...not if I was dumping say 1100 gal of permeate. By my calc's, you're concentrating to 12% using this method?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sfc-dynamic-content/gallery/935/original/1426710272_9c3ad7fed416.jpg

[Russell Lampron]

I have a dedicated concentrate tank like General Stark does. When I get my first batch sweet enough I send it to the head tank and start over again running the concentrate into the sweet tank. I boil from the head tank until I run run low enough to need more sap then I send some up from the sweet tank and then switch back and forth as needed until I run out of sap. My RO is smaller than yours so I set mine to about 50/50 when I start and leave the concentrate flow set there for the entire concentration. I set the high pressure at 250 and let it climb as it needs to most of the time. There are times when I need to crank the pressure up though and don't hesitate to do so.

[meadster02]

On average we are boiling between 1200 and 2000 gallons and my process goes like this. I haul sap in from two bushes and have one bush at the sugar house so the tank has sap in it when I arrive home at 430 or 5. I fire up the Ro right away cranking it right down tight to 1 gpm concentrate. Then I start unloading sap which gives the ro a little head start on the pan. Once I get the pan fired up I back the ro out to match my pan which is about 2.5 to 3 gpm concentrate. I usually do all this between 2 and 3 hours of boiling.

[Maplewalnut]

On average we are boiling between 1200 and 2000 gallons and my process goes like this. I haul sap in from two bushes and have one bush at the sugar house so the tank has sap in it when I arrive home at 430 or 5. I fire up the Ro right away cranking it right down tight to 1 gpm concentrate. Then I start unloading sap which gives the ro a little head start on the pan. Once I get the pan fired up I back the ro out to match my pan which is about 2.5 to 3 gpm concentrate. I usually do all this between 2 and 3 hours of boiling.

Meadster- do you have problems with your membrane fouling cranking it down that low to start? What membrane do you have if I may ask?

Thanks
Mike

[meadster02]

Meadster- do you have problems with your membrane fouling cranking it down that low to start? What membrane do you have if I may ask?

Thanks
Mike

I'm running a D&G 600 with an 8x40 membrane not positive of the make. I have never had and issue with it fouling. the first few years I owned it I ran it that hard the whole time because I only had a 2x6 pan. Now I'm running a 40 x 10 so I'm not having to concentrate as hard because I can cook it off a lot faster.

[mountainvan]

I got another post for my ro this year with new mes membranes. I went from 1.5-17.5 in on pass processing 600 gals per hr.

[doocat]

When we were running a 600 and also two membrane machine we two passed the sap . Once to concentrate tank then to head tank. We found it to be much more efficient. Also if sap is running while recirculating it is constantly diluting your tank. Craig

[Haynes Forest Products]

Amber gold After reading all the other posts My conclusion is without the second post were all in the same boat of trying to make do with not enough tanks. Once again every time we make an improvement in one section of our operation we create another one down the line. I have found its all about having enough tanks and the plumbing to support there use

Having a CDL 600 expandable I keep looking at the adding another post....$7,000.00 YIKES. My tank farm has grown to (3) SS dairy tanks and I now have 5 cage tanks for permeate. My situation is different in that I don't work during sap season so timing is always WHEN I HAVE ENOUGH. This year I will be doing the 2-3 pass system verses the Recirculate until done system. Because of not wanting to hold concentrate at spoiling temperatures my next plan is to put in a working dairy unit that will hold my concentrate as cold as I can possibly keep it so I can cook every 2 days.

Having the plumbing to be able to switch from sap tank 1 over to concentrate 1 then back into bulk hold tank 2 until I can send it to my pre head tank hold tank. Then I get a call from a friend and his tanks are over flowing and needs help fast (can I squeeze his stuff down till its yellow for a case of beer) yea get here fast. Yea 2 hrs later he comes in with 3 totes full and now I need to shut down my lines to run his and by the way he wants to keep his concentrate OK. Yea sure and thanks for the 4 mix matched six packs of leftover HOLIDAY GIFT beer MMmmmmm coffee moca with Chickory my favorite.

[bmbmkr]

Yea sure and thanks for the 4 mix matched six packs of leftover HOLIDAY GIFT beer MMmmmmm coffee moca with Chickory my favorite.[/QUOTE]

DILLY DILLY THE PIT OF MISERY!

[Amber Gold]

Thanks for all the input.

Haynes, I hear you…upgrade one thing and something else is affected. I had thought about setting another tank up, but was trying to avoid it. It means building a tank stand behind the sugarhouse, and then redoing the RO plumbing to make it work. Means relocating the H.P. blower for the arch too…not sure where I’d hide that.

If I was to do it, I’d get another 5’x12’x3’ tank, so I’d have 1250 gal of permeate storage in the new tank…volumes there if I ever decide to upgrade the RO. I’d only want to upgrade the RO if I was processing say 2000+ gal most every boil, not only on big runs.

[hookhill]

We have a first pass tank and a head tank. The first pass comes up to 5-6% and then 15-16% to the head tank. I usually concentrate enough for 3 hours of boiling and as more sap flows in switch back and forth between the 1st pass tank and the head tank as needed. Its a plumbing maze with valves all over the place but am able to concentrate, boil, and fire the arch alone. No time for socializing!! The kink in the system is finding time to rinse the membrane when you still have sap to concentrate. We just put in 50ft of copper coil in the steam stack and hope to have warm permeate to rinse with. This will hopefully reduce the rinse times. Best to you all. Jim

[blissville maples]

Meadster- do you have problems with your membrane fouling cranking it down that low to start? What membrane do you have if I may ask?

Thanks
Mike

I crank mine down to 11/2 sometime 11/4....my permeate flow is usually around 6-7.5and usually rrsts on 6 after 6-8 hrs of ro-ing. They say as long as you stay under 10percent fouling should not be an issue as long as you have a good wash system in place, I wash at a phone of 11.5. this is with a mes2 membrane and I have to say the performance doesn't drop much, but I wash every day....

[mellondome]

With being short a tank for proper 2 pass, can you single pass to your headtank and then dump that back to your sap tank to push through the second time?

[Russell Lampron]

With being short a tank for proper 2 pass, can you single pass to your headtank and then dump that back to your sap tank to push through the second time?

Yes you can assuming that your sap tank is empty.

[Amber Gold]

I can't get sap from my head tan back to the RO. Besides, it's only a 125 gal tank, so nowhere near the capacity I'd need.

I forgot I have a 600+ gal bulk tank. Next season, I can set it up as a permeate tank, and start using my existing perm. tank as a concentrate tank.

It seems like, most days this year are 1500 gal, with some higher than that. I need to figure out how much faster does the three tank setup make my process. How well does it work on 2000+ gal days...or more? Future plans are for expansion (isn't everyone's), but I like to maximize the use of the equipment (better return on investment) but at the same time, I work full-time, so time during maple season is a premium.

To minimize boiling time and wood use, I'd like to be boiling 16-18% conc., which is more important on the bigger nights.

Thanks for the input everyone!

[maple flats]

While it is far from ideal, I currently have 3 sap tanks, a 415, a 545 and a 200 (which is for sale, when that sells I'll move a better 280 gal tank into it's place. Those 3 tanks are plumbed to a common hose to feed the RO. Then I go thru the RO and my permeate goes to a 1000 gal perm. tank while the concentrate goes to my head tank (only 150 gal). As I get enough in the head tank, I switch to recirculate thru the RO and back to the head tank, just by closing one valve as I open another. A first pass tank and then the head tank would work better, but I'd need to set up to do it, not likely in season. My first pass I run at 275 which gives about 1 gpm conc. and 3 gpm perm., when I switch to recirculate, I initally turn it back to about 225, but once the gauge evens out I adjust it for 240-250, which then gives me about 2 & 2 conc. and perm.. My RO does not do well over 14-15% or I end up needing to flush for 3-4 minutes with permeate.
Thus, if I start with 2% I get about 8% on first pass, then I run on recirculate until it is anywhere from 10% up to a max of 14%. I do not try to get 15, but sometimes it happens. I'm thinking of adding another 250 RO and a small tank, like another 150 I use for a head tank. If I go that route I'll likely build my own RO, another 250 with 2 membranes, 4"x40.
While I'm not as big as I was 5 yrs ago and I'm not likely to get that big again, I do take in sap on shares from other producers and when that happens I like to get all sap boiled the same day. My biggest ever day was 2500 gal but 800-1500 is far more common. On that 2500 gal day I had to turn away 2 loads that I could not handle because my tanks were full. Faster RO capabilities would help that, especially if my newest tank turns out to work, I am picking up the compressor for it this summer, then I'll get it tested. Being able to put 280 gal of 12-14% in a tank and cool it to 30F would be a huge advantage. Maybe even my 415 might work if I'm lucky and I could put the compressor on that instead.

[Amber Gold]

Started thinking on this again for next season. I want to talk through my strategy to see if it makes sense and if I’m on track. Looking for input and ideas and appreciate any and all.

It’s looking like average days for next season may become 1500-2000 gal days and peak days say 3000 gal due to expansions by the guys I buy sap off of. My goal is to be boiling 15-18% to keep boil times, and wood use, manageable. I also want to be starting early enough that I’m home by midnight on average nights…I know on big nights that’s out the door and OK with that. I think to be able to work mostly full-time during the season, and handle this volume of sap on a 600 in a short period, I need to be concentrating when I’m at work. Sap will be held overnight, and sap delivered during the day, so there will be sap to process while I’m at work.

I’ll be setting up the following tanks:
1250 gal sap tank
625 gal concentrate tank (was permeate tank) For most days, this will be big enough for me to single pass into.
1100 gal poly perm. tank (new for next year)
600 gal bulk tank (set off to the side and used as a dump tank for when the 1250 gal tank gets full)

Option 1: Somewhere, Russ mentioned he starts the RO and concentrates to his concentrate tank when he leaves for work. At some point, the RO will run out of sap and shut off. Because of the size of the concentrate tank, I’ll have to do a 25%/75% conc/perm to make sure the conc. tank doesn’t overflow. Isn’t it bad to leave concentrated sap in the membrane? Aside from that, it’d be a great way for me to get home and have 1500-2000 gal of raw sap concentrated to 8% and an empty raw sap tank. I could then go out and start hauling a load or two of sap for whatever ran that day. Either send it to my concentrate tank or save it to start the following day.

Option 2: Have Sean start the RO when he drops his sap off for the day. Get home and have the day’s sap sitting in the concentrate tank. Benefit is I don’t have to go to the sugarhouse on my way to work to start the RO, and concentrate isn’t sitting in the membrane for multiple hours.

Option 3: ?? I haven’t thought of another one.

If I go with Option 1 or 2, should I run a couple hundred gallons of perm. water through the RO to “freshen” the membrane?

[n8hutch]

Option 4 Add another post? Or could you get that Old Bulk Tank to Cool again? I have held 10% over night but it was really cold, it was 33 coming in the RO and it was about 20 degrees over night, I don't think having it sitting around all day is ideal. I guess my thought would be that more RO capacity would be the easiest solution but I also understand that it's costly.

[Amber Gold]

Option 4 is bigger RO, but since the increased sap is because of others, I don't want to spend a lot of money on bigger equipment if the sap source isn't secure, at least for now. If the sap was from an expansion in my sap production it'd be different.

The other issue is I only have three more seasons on my lease agreement. Everything's good there, but there's never a guarantee that it'll be resigned.

[Russell Lampron]

When I start my RO in the morning Richard comes up here at noon and starts the second pass so the RO doesn't sit with sap in it for very long. By the time that I get home from work the first 600 gallons are in the head tank and the second batch is on it's second pass. After dinner the second batch is on it's way to the head tank while we are hauling in the last batch. That one is usually small enough so that we can get it sweet before we run out of sap with the evaporator. We don't do any rinses between batches. Starting a new batch of raw sap freshens up the membrane and gets the flow rates back up.

If you can start the RO in the morning and have someone else start the second pass after the first pass is done you can keep concentrating all day. That will get your first sap sweetened and into your head tank as more sap is being hauled in.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I have a 600 CDL expandable and I would start the day sucking out of 2 800 gallon tanks and just keep recirculating until I get up the 18% I know I know its not a recommended way of doing it. After its done I rinse the Heck out of it with 600 gallons of permeate. Then I do the next load as I fire up the rig and get things going. Then its rinse and wash the unit. I did 4,000 gallons on my best day and a half run. I let 800 gallons get to around 22% after I got held up at the woods and it went well so Ill stick with the method. I would not do it this way because I wont be responsible.