Lateral into Wet/Dry

[evanstj]

I know that is ideal to not run a lateral into a wet/dry line. Given that I have a few places where I could connect 2-10 taps into the wet/dry line where it makes no sense to add a main for so few taps. I also hate to not tap them since a lot are nice trees and would be easy to hookup. So what do most people do and why, not tap the trees, put the saddle on wet line or put it on the dry line. Thanks

[Russell Lampron]

I put the saddle on the wet line and tap the trees. The vacuum transfer isn't as good as having a lateral mainline but you will get sap from those taps.

[DrTimPerkins]

Generally you don't want to put a lateral into a wet/dry conductor because if you have a leak on that line you could freeze up the conductor and cause a blockage. You might pick up that 2-10 trees, but compromise sap coming from the 2,000 trees on that conductor system. The more correct approach is to run a mainline up the conductors to pick up those trees. Yup, costs more upfront, but saves you in the long-run in lost production from the entire bush if you have a leak.

[evanstj]

I realize what the correct way is, but I am wondering what people do in reality when money is an object. To me it does not seem cost effect to add a mainline that costs 60 dollars in stainless Y fittings to get 5 out of the way taps. At some point in maple there has to be a point to stop spending money. Just want to know what normal people do that are trying to make money.

[DrTimPerkins]

You are looking for validation and asked “why not”. I told you. Don’t shoot the messenger.

[prairietapper]

how many taps would you be putting at risk of lower production to save 60 bucks?

[evanstj]

I'm just wondering what other people do on their lines, and if they have any opinion on what works for them. I figure that if I put a short mainline in that it is 2 fittings with 2 connections on both the wet and dry line, so there are 4 possible places to leak. With a saddle there is only 1 possibility for a leak, so I would think that it would be less of a chance of freezing up from a leak if you can use less than 4 saddles instead of a short mainline. I might be wrong, but am just trying to decide what to do.

[mellondome]

If cant get those taps to a branch line, then I leave them untapped.
Do you need that exrta 2 gallons of syrup @ the potential cost of drums of syrup?

[wiam]

I'm just wondering what other people do on their lines, and if they have any opinion on what works for them. I figure that if I put a short mainline in that it is 2 fittings with 2 connections on both the wet and dry line, so there are 4 possible places to leak. With a saddle there is only 1 possibility for a leak, so I would think that it would be less of a chance of freezing up from a leak if you can use less than 4 saddles instead of a short mainline. I might be wrong, but am just trying to decide what to do.

No saddles on my wet/dry lines.

[maple flats]

No saddles on mine either. Why would you risk far more than what that line could generate for the cost equal to about 4 qts of syrup? Either don't tap them or do it using a mainline the right way.
If you put a saddle in a wet line and it develops even a small leak, the cooling caused by the venturi effect, where the air leaking in thru the small entrance at the saddle into the wet line with good vacuum on it, drops in temperature enough to create ice. This is the same way your refrigerator or AC work to cool. The ice formed could easily stop the flow of all the rest of the wet line and eventually even the dry line.

[DrTimPerkins]

.. the cooling caused by the venturi effect, where the air leaking in thru the small entrance at the saddle into the wet line with good vacuum on it, drops in temperature enough to create ice.

Old timers or aviators might remember the term "carb icing"...a bad thing on the road....a really bad thing several thousand feet in the air. Saddles (some more than others) are notorious for pinhole leaks that cause freezing issues in mainline.

[Alex Davies]

No saddles on mine either. Why would you risk far more than what that line could generate for the cost equal to about 4 qts of syrup? Either don't tap them or do it using a mainline the right way.
If you put a saddle in a wet line and it develops even a small leak, the cooling caused by the venturi effect, where the air leaking in thru the small entrance at the saddle into the wet line with good vacuum on it, drops in temperature enough to create ice. This is the same way your refrigerator or AC work to cool. The ice formed could easily stop the flow of all the rest of the wet line and eventually even the dry line.

Curious why it is different with a wet-dry system then with a regular wet system.
Will microleaks on saddles on a single mainline wet system have the same effect, and cause complete ice blockages?

[wiam]

Curious why it is different with a wet-dry system then with a regular wet system.
Will microleaks on saddles on a single mainline wet system have the same effect, and cause complete ice blockages?

Leaks in a mainline block (freeze) the taps in that mainline. Leaks in the wet/dry can block much of the system.

[DrTimPerkins]

Curious why it is different with a wet-dry system then with a regular wet system.
Will microleaks on saddles on a single mainline wet system have the same effect, and cause complete ice blockages?

Yes, but that will only affect taps on that one mainline. In the wet/dry conductor system, a leak on a saddle will block the flow from ALL mainlines on that system. Since saddles are often the "weakest link" in the system, it is best to avoid putting them in the wet/dry conductor system.

[GeneralStark]

I don't put any saddles on wet/dry conductors for the reasons already stated. I run an additional mainline parallel to the wet/dry lines to pick up taps along the way. Like shown in the photo. I have seen people just T the wet/dry lines and add a star fitting to connect laterals.

17714

[mrb215]

What if you were to make a small booster out of 1” pvc and connect the lateral to that? Just a thought

[abbott]

I have a number of saddles on my wet line. Never caused any problems for me in the 5 or 6 years I've had this system. In terms of addressing the concerns above... I have about 2000' of wet/dry. If the wet line is iced up, sap goes through the dry. This has never happened to me caused by a leak, just by ice in the tubing in the AM. But if I did ice up the wet, I have no doubt the sap would move up to the dry, giving me an extra indication that something is wrong. If I have a leak I go find it pronto... and a leak straight into the wet line would be obvious from the pressure drop at the releaser. If you don't have the ability to stay on top of your vacuum leaks, then I can see where it makes more sense to go the extra mile to avoid problems. For me, working with 800+ taps total and maybe 60 straight into the wet line, I'm confident that tapping those trees has gained me way more than it has lost. On the flip side, much of what I did was due to naivety, not necessity.

The other way you could consider doing it is to run your lateral to the wet/dry, then run it along the wet/dry until you come to the next main, putting a saddle on the main. Is running 50' of extra lateral more feasible for you than putting in a short main? How far would you go to reach the next main?

[WestfordSugarworks]

Never do it unless you're able to find any potential leak within minutes of the leak occuring (because that is how long it will take for a leak at the wet line to screw up your entire system). Leaky lateral from squirrel chew, leaky tap hole, etc., will freeze saddle and thus freeze mainline. If you put saddle directly onto wet line, the wet line will freeze. Sap will back up the wet line and be forced to travel through the dry line. This is a huge problem from a yield standpoint. If you have a traditional setup where your mainline Ts into a wet/dry (as seen in this picture) then sap completely fills your mainline and pulls up the whip into the dry line. https://www.google.com/search?q=mainline+wet+dry+tubing&safe=off&rlz=1CAACAV_enUS760US760&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyy-Got_7ZAhVuhuAKHZ4NA64Q_AUICygC&biw=1536&bih=726#imgrc=9zeDFqs-TrmQpM:

If your mainline is FULL of sap at any point that means vacuum is greatly reduced to all of the laterals on that mainline. Vacuum travels poorly through liquid. So one frozen saddle on a wet line will comprimise all of the mainlines above it, which makes no sense and is a huge financial drag. I guess if you feel like you really need to get those extra few taps then I would put a saddle on the dry line. But I would never do it and I know many people in my area who install thousands of taps per year, they never do it.

Pretty amazing the things you learn from spending lots of time each year looking for leaks, you'll find many crazy things that result from small leaks especially. Leaks are the greatest enemy but we cannot always find every leak so the best we can do when installing tubing is to design resilient systems that will still function well even when some leaks are present.

Maybe run a 3/16 line with all those taps that you want to pick up down to your next mainline, similar to what abbott suggested. 3/16 could give you a little extra natural vacuum.