3/16 tubing... Love it and hate it

[mol1jb]

So this year I am up to 130 taps on 3/16. My bush has tons of drop over the runs (Illinois river bluff bush). This is the first year they converge into a shurflo manifold and the increase in yeilds have been very exciting. For the most part I am very pleased. However...

It is not durable at all. I had added quite a bit of line throughout the bush last summer and fall and all the animals of the woods have been chewing on it. Squirrels, deer, coyotes, and maybe a ground hog. Each run of line I have is about 1500 ft long with 20-25 taps per. Over the past 3 days I have fixed around 20 leaks per line! Some lines have more union fittings than taps. And there are still more leaks I need to fix!

But the lines that are all fixed up work great! Is it worth spending a week every season repairing my 3/16 or is there a better option?

[psparr]

Put on your hunting clothes.

[amasonry]

I had added quite a bit of line throughout the bush last summer and fall and all the animals of the woods have been chewing on it. Squirrels, deer, coyotes, and maybe a ground hog.


i'm about the same as you in tap count and animal chews. at the end of the season last year, after I pull my taps. I reach up and put my 3/16 line as high as I can. this year only the deer chewed maybe a dozen drops (the lowest part) and only two squirrel chews. always keep a 22 handy

[DrTimPerkins]

Squirrels, deer, coyotes, and maybe a ground hog.

Unless the ground hogs climb trees in your area, I suspect your lines might be a bit low!

Animal chews are not uncommon, so constantly checking and fixing lines is also not uncommon when using vacuum. Your days of hanging out leisurely in the sugarhouse are over when you start using vacuum (unless you want to think you have vacuum, but really don't). You have to get out there regularly and check for leaks. Put your lines up higher, and arrange them so you can push them up high in the summer to avoid most smaller animals. Wear gloves during installation to avoid getting salt on the tubing. And as mentioned....get out your rifle.

[Sugarmaker]

Unless the ground hogs climb trees in your area, I suspect your lines might be a bit low!

Animal chews are not uncommon, so constantly checking and fixing lines is also not uncommon when using vacuum. Your days of hanging out leisurely in the sugarhouse are over when you start using vacuum (unless you want to think you have vacuum, but really don't). You have to get out there regularly and check for leaks. Put your lines up higher, and arrange them so you can push them up high in the summer to avoid most smaller animals. Wear gloves during installation to avoid getting salt on the tubing. And as mentioned....get out your rifle.

We did have a ground hog in a tree a few years back, I think its rare but it could happen. Reds, fox and gray squirrels are probably the big issue.
Are the lines being cleaned with bleach? They love that!
I take my tubing down each year and have have a few squire ll chews on spouts and tubing too.
Regards,
Chris

[maple flats]

As far as squirrel chews go, a lot depends on what kind of other trees are there. My sugarhouse woods has very few squirrels, my lease has a few more and I had another lease with far too many squirrels because about 6-8% of the trees were Hickory. The best deterrent for squirrels os .22" in diameter, but a shotgun is ok but be aware not to hit the tubing with either.

[mol1jb]

Thanks for the replys. The bush is on park district ground so a gun solution is out. I have heard that 5/16 is a little more durable than 3/16. How true is this? If I went to 5/16 drops that could be something to reduce my repair work. Thoughts?

[pf1277]

We take all our lines down every year for that very reason, 1200 taps scattered in 3 different wood lots, its not the ideal thing to do but we don't spend days repairing before we tap....

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I'm probably the most pessimistic one on here in regards to 3/16" tubing but my bold prediction is that in 10 years most producers will hate it......

[markcasper]

I'm probably the most pessimistic one on here in regards to 3/16" tubing but my bold prediction is that in 10 years most producers will hate it...... Are you going to start taking money on that bet?

[5050racing]

I had the same trouble last year fixing all the chew downs so I said I would try to remove them at the end of the season and reinstall in the beginning, my runs are about 700-800' each and I feel its way easier to do this as I just reinstalled them Saturday, I was able to flush them n blow them out with air at the end of season so for me it will be take them down put them up not that bad at my location

[DrTimPerkins]

I'm probably the most pessimistic one on here in regards to 3/16" tubing but my bold prediction is that in 10 years most producers will hate it......

3/16" tubing has very clear benefits in some applications, and it has clear drawbacks in others. 5/16" is superior in other settings. The problem lies in people not understanding where it should be used, and where it should NOT be used, and also in how to maintain it properly to ensure continued good production. I think the problem originated in some people believing it was the solution to all tubing needs, and also in having unrealistic long-term expectations for production. Many people adopted 3/16" tubing and had extremely high production. This was a combination of having excellent sanitation (new tubing will always outproduce old tubing by a huge margin) and a naturally good sap flow season. Fast forward a year or two and your sanitation isn't as good and your sap flow season isn't as good, and people are less happy. Maintaining tubing to achieve high vacuum is also real work....any leaks result in lost vacuum and lower production. You don't just get high vacuum for nothing....you have to work for it.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Thanks Dr. Tim for explaining some of those benefits and drawbacks. I'm not looking to start an argument or hedge any bets on tubing. I will just say that your last sentence sums up my thoughts and I think 3/16" will be more work for the producer down the road. Cost-benefit analysis..........needs to be done by the individual sugarmaker.

[wurmdert]

I also have lots of chews. But I have noticed that the last two seasons that there has only been 1 chew on the light blue stiffer tubing that leader sells in 800ft. rolls. compared to the darker blue clear flexible stuff. Maybe coincident? I'm not sure. I'm going to add more of the lighter blue in problematic areas and see if the trend continues. I love the 3/16th 3rd season 700 taps

[KReinisch]

This was the first year I had alot of deer chews. I also had one line ripped completely off the main line. My guess is that a deer hit it while running through the woods. I also noticed that i get the most chews when a limb falls and brings the line to the ground. Then all the little buggers get to it.

[achesser]

We tried it the first time this year and it has paid off with more sap. We have a steep hill side that is clay. I would walk and gather buckets and fall down in the mud with full 5 gallon buckets of sap. We have to fix animal chews but it is easier walking around with a tubing tool vs full buckets of sap. I am going to use the buckets on nice level spots later in the season. I need to get my boys squirrel hunting for next year.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dont forget rat traps. Just nail them to the tree trunk about shoulder high. Bait with a small section of 3/16...............HA HA no try something good like peanut better I think squirrels like peanut butter.

[markcasper]

Maintaining tubing to achieve high vacuum is also real work....any leaks result in lost vacuum and lower production. You don't just get high vacuum for nothing....you have to work for it.

That is a bout the best statement that I have ever heard! So true. And to an outsider and relatives looking in, they are quick to calculate all the $$$$ they think you are bringing in, without having a clue the hours and battles in operating and maintaining excellet vacuum.

[mol1jb]

3/16" tubing has very clear benefits in some applications, and it has clear drawbacks in others. 5/16" is superior in other settings. The problem lies in people not understanding where it should be used, and where it should NOT be used, and also in how to maintain it properly to ensure continued good production. I think the problem originated in some people believing it was the solution to all tubing needs, and also in having unrealistic long-term expectations for production. Many people adopted 3/16" tubing and had extremely high production. This was a combination of having excellent sanitation (new tubing will always outproduce old tubing by a huge margin) and a naturally good sap flow season. Fast forward a year or two and your sanitation isn't as good and your sap flow season isn't as good, and people are less happy. Maintaining tubing to achieve high vacuum is also real work....any leaks result in lost vacuum and lower production. You don't just get high vacuum for nothing....you have to work for it.

Always appreciate your advice Dr Tim. I dont mind working to repair damage from nature. And this being my first year on shurflo has brought many insights on how my bush is set up. I think the time I have spent repairing lines for only 120 taps has been very time consuming but I have improved the tightness a lot over the past 5 days and that makes me happy. My biggest complaint with 3/16 is when a leak occurs and lets air into the lines, all the taps above the leak just about stop flowing due to 1- losing vacuum and 2- air that is leaking into the line takes priority over the sap above it.

But when my 3/16 lines are tight they perform great. So I think next season I am going to split my 3/16 laterals in half so that when the animals are damaging the lines it will have less impact as there will be less taps per lateral

[mol1jb]

I would also love to get a definition of 3/16 on marginal slope. I believe the effects of back pressure on marginal slope are real as I had some 3/16 set up this way last year. But I would love some numerical perameters like 3/16 run over 100ft with only 5 ft drop creates x back pressure that reduces vacuum x amount. Or perhaps no studies have been done yet?

[markcasper]

I would also love to get a definition of 3/16 on marginal slope. I believe the effects of back pressure on marginal slope are real as I had some 3/16 set up this way last year. But I would love some numerical perameters like 3/16 run over 100ft with only 5 ft drop creates x back pressure that reduces vacuum x amount. Or perhaps no studies have been done yet?
Great post I have some wanting to set up, have plenty of slope to the last tree, but then would like to go 500 feet more, no taps to get 30 feet of drop. what the restriction going to be?

[mol1jb]

Great post I have some wanting to set up, have plenty of slope to the last tree, but then would like to go 500 feet more, no taps to get 30 feet of drop. what the restriction going to be?

Ya questions like that are why it would be nice to know at what point does back pressure on low slope cancel out the natural vac 3/16 creates. On my current setup I run my 3/16 around 300 ft to pick up my 30ft drop then into a shurflo pump. There have been times when I turn off the pump right before freezing hits and the sap in the 3/16 lines start pulling back up into the lines. That makes me that even though I achieve the 30 ft drop that running the lines 300 ft to achieve this creates a good amount of back pressure.

[Super Sapper]

If you shut the pump off while sap is still running it will back up. It is the same as shutting a valve. Let the pump run until after the lines freeze and you will avoid this.

[DrTimPerkins]

I would also love to get a definition of 3/16 on marginal slope. I believe the effects of back pressure on marginal slope are real as I had some 3/16 set up this way last year. But I would love some numerical perameters like 3/16 run over 100ft with only 5 ft drop creates x back pressure that reduces vacuum x amount. Or perhaps no studies have been done yet?

First I suppose I should address the title...."love it and hate it." Realistically, 3/16" tubing is a tool. Use it correctly and you'll see the benefit. Stray from the recommendations and you may not like it. That's not a problem with the tool.

Theoretically, a 3/16" line that is 1' long and flat AFTER the slope will generate a resistance of 0.051' H2O of head loss. A 100' 3/16" line that is flat will generate 5.1' H2O (or 4.4" Hg) of head loss. This loss will affect vacuum across the entire length of the line and up the slope. So if your tank was at the bottom of the hill, you'd see negligible loss in your line. If your tank was 100' away across flat land after the bottom of the hill, all the taps on the line would experience a 4.4" Hg reduction in vacuum. Trees at or near the bottom of the hill would experience pressure at the taphole rather than vacuum.

When you have flat land to cross, 3/16" tubing is not the way to go. In those cases, you'd be better off using a mainline from the bottom of the hill, or at least transitioning from 3/16" to 5/16" at the bottom of the hill to reduce the frictional head loss in the tubing (frictional losses in 5/16" tubing are only about 1/10th that in 3/16" tubing at the same flow rate) and trying to ensure there is at least a small amount of slope across the flat area and no sags.

The break-even for minimal slope (where frictional forces = natural gravity forces) seems to be right about 5-6% (based upon engineering calculations). So I'd suggest less than 5% slope, don't consider 3/16" tubing, 5-7% is OK, but probably won't result in huge gains, and > 7% will provide some benefit.

Note that this doesn't include any additional frictional losses due to fittings. That only makes the situation worse. Results will also vary depending upon flow rates.

[buckeye gold]

So in the pictured scenario would it be better to have 5/16th short run mainline to your tank? Say that bottom 30-50 ft had 5 foot of drop.

[DrTimPerkins]

So in the pictured scenario would it be better to have 5/16th short run mainline to your tank? Say that bottom 30-50 ft had 5 foot of drop.

It wouldn't make a lot of difference as long as the last section was only 30-50 ft and you had 5' of drop (the shorter the section and the greater the drop the better). The frictional losses would be slightly less than the vacuum gained.

[mike103]

First I suppose I should address the title...."love it and hate it." Realistically, 3/16" tubing is a tool. Use it correctly and you'll see the benefit. Stray from the recommendations and you may not like it. That's not a problem with the tool.

Theoretically, a 3/16" line that is 1' long and flat AFTER the slope will generate a resistance of 0.051' H2O of head loss. A 100' 3/16" line that is flat will generate 5.1' H2O (or 4.4" Hg) of head loss. This loss will affect vacuum across the entire length of the line and up the slope. So if your tank was at the bottom of the hill, you'd see negligible loss in your line. If your tank was 100' away across flat land after the bottom of the hill, all the taps on the line would experience a 4.4" Hg reduction in vacuum. Trees at or near the bottom of the hill would experience pressure at the taphole rather than vacuum.

When you have flat land to cross, 3/16" tubing is not the way to go. In those cases, you'd be better off using a mainline from the bottom of the hill, or at least transitioning from 3/16" to 5/16" at the bottom of the hill to reduce the frictional head loss in the tubing (frictional losses in 5/16" tubing are only about 1/10th that in 3/16" tubing at the same flow rate) and trying to ensure there is at least a small amount of slope across the flat area and no sags.

The break-even for minimal slope (where frictional forces = natural gravity forces) seems to be right about 5-6% (based upon engineering calculations). So I'd suggest less than 5% slope, don't consider 3/16" tubing, 5-7% is OK, but probably won't result in huge gains, and > 7% will provide some benefit.

Note that this doesn't include any additional frictional losses due to fittings. That only makes the situation worse. Results will also vary depending upon flow rates.


So would the same logic on frictional loss apply to shurflo vac and not gravity with 100' level section going to tank on 3/16? Or should I upsize to 5/16 on home stretch. (total length of run 600', 30 taps.) Thank You

[markcasper]

This is great information! Assuming the above information is correct, what I would like to do will not work then.

Dr. Tim, now hook up normal mechanical vacuum to the above situation, how much friction will be eliminated or reduced then? Thanks

[DrTimPerkins]

....now hook up normal mechanical vacuum to the above situation, how much friction will be eliminated or reduced then? Thanks

These questions have spurred me to write a couple of articles for the next Maple News on 3/16" tubing. The first will be comparing elevation, vacuum and yield in gravity, pumped vacuum, natural vacuum, and hybrid (pump + natural) vacuum systems. The second will be on potential losses in 3/16" systems due to marginal slopes and possible ways to deal with it....which includes the situation you describe above.

[wlatrout]

Wow! This thread has me rethinking my plan for a woods I aquired this year.The woods is flat. First run was to be 28 or 30 taps on 3 /16.Would it be better to run 5/16 on a shurflo?

[Super Sapper]

My experience with 3/16 on level ground with a surflo pump with around 20 taps and 300 to 400 foot run is a loss of about 1 or 2 inches of vac at the last tap.

[RileySugarbush]

.......Theoretically, a 3/16" line that is 1' long and flat AFTER the slope will generate a resistance of 0.051' H2O of head loss. A 100' 3/16" line that is flat will generate 5.1' H2O (or 4.4" Hg) of head loss. This loss will affect vacuum across the entire length of the line and up the slope. So if your tank was at the bottom of the hill, you'd see negligible loss in your line. If your tank was 100' away across flat land after the bottom of the hill, all the taps on the line would experience a 4.4" Hg reduction in vacuum. Trees at or near the bottom of the hill would experience pressure at the taphole rather than vacuum. ........... Results will also vary depending upon flow rates.


What flow rate are you assuming to come up with that number?

[buckeye gold]

This is what a forum should be....making everybody better. Thanks for all your help Dr. Perkins and I am sure everyone will be waiting to see those articles. I figured my diagram was at least a way to picture a scenario I have. However, after last night's ice storm I will have zero natural vacuum and a whole lot of work on my hands.....I think this is one of those hate it moments. I only walked a short ways into the woods and every line i saw was sagging, on the ground or visibly broken:cry:

[markcasper]

I sure wish this information would have come out a few years ago....Man how things changed since yesterday. The good thing is we have some hard numbers to plug into the formula. I have about 150 taps that all run to the east, with major slope from top of hill to bottom. There is a town road all along this east side. Previously, there was 3 points where I had small tanks at the foot of the hill, and adjacent to the town road. The road has a grade to the north of approx. 3-4% and the area of collection north to south is across 40 acres. So, at the furthest point from the south end I was thinking of running up to 2500 feet of 3/16" in the adjacent ditch, the next spot would be about 500 feet from former collection tank, and the last spot the lines would come right from the trees into the tank. I was thinking of using one larger tank to collect from all of these and the idea of running 1000's of feet of 3/16" adjacent to the road and sloping to the north to pickup 30 feet of drop will now be useless, if not counter-productive?

[mol1jb]

First I suppose I should address the title...."love it and hate it." Realistically, 3/16" tubing is a tool. Use it correctly and you'll see the benefit. Stray from the recommendations and you may not like it. That's not a problem with the tool.

Theoretically, a 3/16" line that is 1' long and flat AFTER the slope will generate a resistance of 0.051' H2O of head loss. A 100' 3/16" line that is flat will generate 5.1' H2O (or 4.4" Hg) of head loss. This loss will affect vacuum across the entire length of the line and up the slope. So if your tank was at the bottom of the hill, you'd see negligible loss in your line. If your tank was 100' away across flat land after the bottom of the hill, all the taps on the line would experience a 4.4" Hg reduction in vacuum. Trees at or near the bottom of the hill would experience pressure at the taphole rather than vacuum.

When you have flat land to cross, 3/16" tubing is not the way to go. In those cases, you'd be better off using a mainline from the bottom of the hill, or at least transitioning from 3/16" to 5/16" at the bottom of the hill to reduce the frictional head loss in the tubing (frictional losses in 5/16" tubing are only about 1/10th that in 3/16" tubing at the same flow rate) and trying to ensure there is at least a small amount of slope across the flat area and no sags.

The break-even for minimal slope (where frictional forces = natural gravity forces) seems to be right about 5-6% (based upon engineering calculations). So I'd suggest less than 5% slope, don't consider 3/16" tubing, 5-7% is OK, but probably won't result in huge gains, and > 7% will provide some benefit.

Note that this doesn't include any additional frictional losses due to fittings. That only makes the situation worse. Results will also vary depending upon flow rates.

Dr. Tim

A huge thanks for taking the time to write all that up. This is most helpful for myself and I am sure many others. I like many others are to new 3/16 and this information will help me fine tune my system to be better in future years.

Also I would be very interested in reading your upcoming articles. Could you post the link to where they will be posted?

Thanks again

[Chris_In_Vermont]

We have about 22,000 taps 3\16 hybrid vacuum system and a bunch more than that 5\16. I've put up alot of 3\16 tubing. I like to install it (800' rolls are awesome) and it's awesome the first year it's up. I dislike the maintenance and durability VS 5\16, I think alot of it is due to the early single barb dropline T's (we get alot of pull aparts) But I also prefer checking vacuum on 3\16. Then again, where we have 3\16 is pretty darn steep so I don't like that so much. I don't know, still on the fence about it (hybrid vac system) Leaning towards preferring 5\16 for high vac system. If no vac pump is available and you got slope, there's no question. Like you said, some days, love it and hate it.

[mol1jb]

We have about 22,000 taps 3\16 hybrid vacuum system and a bunch more than that 5\16. I've put up alot of 3\16 tubing. I like to install it (800' rolls are awesome) and it's awesome the first year it's up. I dislike the maintenance and durability VS 5\16, I think alot of it is due to the early single barb dropline T's (we get alot of pull aparts) But I also prefer checking vacuum on 3\16. Then again, where we have 3\16 is pretty darn steep so I don't like that so much. I don't know, still on the fence about it (hybrid vac system) Leaning towards preferring 5\16 for high vac system. If no vac pump is available and you got slope, there's no question. Like you said, some days, love it and hate it.

Thanks for the info Chris. What is your setup like and how many years have you been running 3/16?

[maplefrank]

Get the hottest paper, wear gloves, break I to and rub on the line.... If you don't think it works, stick your tongue o. It.... If you still think it won't work stick you'd toungue on it again! Took a few hours before I could feel tongue! !

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Thanks for an honest report on the 3/16" tubing Chris in a big time sugar operation. Keep us posted on how it does over the long term.

[Brandy Brook Maple]

Some may laugh about "Wood Chucks" climbing trees but I saw one 6' up a tree this summer.
At first glance I thought it's head was the snout of a Moose.
Get out and enjoy.

[Chris_In_Vermont]

The oldest 3\16 we've got is on it's 4th season, that's D&G semi ridgid, grips fittings very well, but hard to keep it tight, likes to sag and has a memory if a branch falls on it. Unfortunately that lease is expiring and won't be renewed (bigger fish to fry) so we won't have a longer term study there. The other woods is leader 30p, stays tighter but doesn't grip fittings as well, on it's 3rd season. Those two woods were previously 5\16 systems that we just retubed in 5\16, one is very steep. We did try and make an effort to get more taps per line retubing with 3\16. One new woods is 7000 taps we installed last year, and we spaced the mainlines further apart to get longer runs, more taps per line. That woods is steep everywhere. Borderline ridiculous some of the places we have tubing...

They are all a wet\dry two pipe conductor system with 3\4" mainlines and 1" mainlines when required.

My best day tubing with 3\16 I put out 20, 800ft rolls, 16,000ft. We installed 3000 taps in NY in 3 days.

[Chris_In_Vermont]

We also wash all our 3\16 tubing, with a peroxide\water cleaning solution, applied under vacuum.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Thanks for the info Chris, we clean out 5/16 lines the same way you do with the same solution. I don't think it does anything for sanitation but it does help clean the gunk out of the lines. Very interested to hear what you have to say another 4 years down the road. We are fortunate to not have too many steep slopes. But today with 15" of fresh snow was pretty brutal. About 3 feet in the woods now.

[BlueberryHill]

The Lapierre 3/16 tubing seems pretty good. Grabs fittings good and slips on a lot better than most others. Has a good amount of stretch and seems to grab the trees good. Still early, not tested a whole lot. But it's the front runner for me so far. Tried at least 6 different kinds of 3/16 now.