in need of serious filtering help

[scottdevine]

Maple Trader Community, HELP!

I am starting my 3rd year of sugaring, and thought i dialed in my process of filtering syrup. in 2018 i started using an RO, and can not get my syrup clear. I batch boil, and double (pre-filter) the nyrup, before it gets to propane for finishing (like in 2017), once it reaches syrup, i use 4 paper pre filters inside of an orelan (cloth) filter that drains into a pre heated coffee urn (the urn is unplugged before bottling, syrup does not continue to boil). from there it's bottled. This method last year, sans RO, worked fantastic. In 2018 however, both batch 1 and 2 are a niter "mess" (not meeting personal standards). In batch 1 this year (2018) i used 4 pre-filters stacked in the orlean, in batch 2, i used 8 pre filters. the photos are the result of batch 2, and my last batch for 2017(sans RO). Is the RO doing something? are all the pre filters bad? is the orlean (with 20 gallons of syrup through it bad?) i am at my witts end, i want to pull my taps...im probably moving to plastic jugs and will not see the "problem" any longer. You folks have inspired me in the past, and have provided invaluable advice, i could really use some insight here.

signed,

Desperate in CT.

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[to100]

What temperature is your syrup when you start to filter?

[scottdevine]

its funny you ask...tonight my 3 thermometers all died on me. I know that batch 1 was 221.4 before it got to 59 BRIX on the hot line of the hydrometer. tonight, i really don't know, but it was right at the line when i started filtering. I'll be getting batteries and another digital thermometer this weekend...im also thinking about all new filters, pre and cloth, but it all seems like overkill, since these filters are all relatively new.

[whity]

its funny you ask...tonight my 3 thermometers all died on me. I know that batch 1 was 221.4 before it got to 59 BRIX on the hot line of the hydrometer. tonight, i really don't know, but it was right at the line when i started filtering. I'll be getting batteries and another digital thermometer this weekend...im also thinking about all new filters, pre and cloth, but it all seems like overkill, since these filters are all relatively new.

What is relatively new? If they were used last season. Get rid of them. Use new every season. Don't wring them out when washing. Just agitate them in hot water and rinse with cold water. Make sure they stay warm and moist before filtering. We go through 2 sets of filters season. 2 Orlon filter and 14 to 16 prefilter. We noticed last year that we had gotten bad prefilters. They looked thinner, but would plug up like nothing. Went to Sunny side and picked up more of what we used to have.

[barnbc76]

I had problems until I went with using 2-4 prefilters in the synthetic cone filter. I still have issues every now and then it seems to get worse the later in the season it gets. I did buy a new synthetic cone filter this year. When it works the syrup is crystal clear, I put it In those maple shaped glass bottles to sell and give as gifts nothing more attractive.

[scottdevine]

What is relatively new? If they were used last season. Get rid of them. Use new every season. Don't wring them out when washing. Just agitate them in hot water and rinse with cold water. Make sure they stay warm and moist before filtering. We go through 2 sets of filters season. 2 Orlon filter and 14 to 16 prefilter. We noticed last year that we had gotten bad prefilters. They looked thinner, but would plug up like nothing. Went to Sunny side and picked up more of what we used to have.
I will go to a local CDL distributor in my area and get new filters today. Regarding keeping them wet/moist before filtering, how are you doing that? currently i am getting the lower third of the cloth filter wet w hot water, and using a rolling pin the squeeze the water out (not wringing the cone). Hanging the cone over the coffee urn while steam coming off never got it moist enough for use. Thanks for the comments, i hope new filters fixes the issue.

[barnbc76]

Perhaps the coffee urn is creating more niter after you filter. Try making the next batch without using it.

[maple flats]

A few using pre-filters and a syrup filter, also blend in some DE before filtering. See if a local larger producer will sell you a few qts. worth to test. Then add about 1/3-1/2 cup/gal of syrup being filtered to see how much it helps. You might just get syrup crystal clear. As long as the syrup filter has never been twisted, the DE will not pass thru, in fact most will be caught in the pre-filters. As a side benefit you will get more production out of a filter change, because the DE will form a filter cake on the surface (a filter cake helps keep the niter far better dispersed so it does not plug the filter.)

[Aa2tn]

Not sure how much syrup you make but if it was me, I would bite the bullet and buy a filter press and never look back! If you get a good deal on a used one you can always get most of your money back if you decide to get out of sugaring. The usual comment from someone that finally got a filter press is "what took me so long! I should have done it years ago"

[scottdevine]

i had thought of that as well, the coffee urn is unplugged before the syrup hits it. i heat water in the coffee urn to get it to temp, then empty the water into a separate pot (for cleaning the filters after the bottling), and filter into the unplugged urn.

[scottdevine]

yes, i know, and agree, and will probably say that. i will look for used ones, as you suggest i will get the $ back.

[scottdevine]

Resolved! after buying a new cloth filter and many pre filters, i unbottled everything, and re warmed to 190 and filtered through the new filters (5 pre filters stacked in the new cloth filter). This time, like last year, i warmed the rinsed bottles to 200 in the oven. I'm back in business with crystal clear syrup. The photo isn't that good, and there are vanilla beans floating in the bottle on the left, but you can see the difference. In person it is outstanding. Thank you Maple Trader once again, you folks make a great hobby, even better.
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[buckeye gold]

scott, now that you have new filters clean them after ever days use and no more rolling squeezing or whatever. I take a 16 qt stock pot and heat the water to at least 140-160 and then I push my filters down into it and let them soak a few minutes. I push them down with the side you poured syrup into up, so that your pushing nitre out the way it went in. I then pull them out and flip them over and rinse under hot running tap water. again pushing nitre out the way it went in. I have a bunch of those clothes hangers with clips, like you get from dept store clothes. I clip the filters on them and hang them on a clothes line to drip dry. I keep my filter setting in the steam column over the evaporator when I'm using them and they stay moist and hot.

[Haynes Forest Products]

If your coffee maker is making a squeaking sound during your reheating process you are getting micro boiling on the bottom of the unit. You wont see boiling on the surface but its doing it on the surface of the heating element.

[to100]

Glad you got it in control.
I made a cone filter tank using galvanized 90 degree stockwith pre-drilled holes. Also a base large enough for a gallon or 2 pot on. I got threaded “I” bolts which I opened to be hooks. I used 12 to make hangers for filters. Fabric filter has straps to put on hooks. I cut holes in pre-filters.
I have a 2nd pot of sap to preheat filters just before it’s syrup.
At the end I dip into sap and use for next boil.
I turn my fabric filter inside out and use kitchen sink sprayer to spray out remaining niter with hot water.
I fold it in half and place in dish drying rack, by morning it is dry.

I had same problem until I did this. I am using fabric filter for several years. I get 5 to 10 gallons syrup a year.
I just got a “The RO Bucket” with shut off. Now a lot less wood and time.

[whity]

I will go to a local CDL distributor in my area and get new filters today. Regarding keeping them wet/moist before filtering, how are you doing that? currently i am getting the lower third of the cloth filter wet w hot water, and using a rolling pin the squeeze the water out (not wringing the cone). Hanging the cone over the coffee urn while steam coming off never got it moist enough for use. Thanks for the comments, i hope new filters fixes the issue.
We clean and rinse them. Then hang the wet filters over the syrup pan. The steam will keep them warm and moist. As for the small amount of water your trying to roll out! I don't think it's necessary. It shouldn't change the density.

[maple flats]

The main filter should last a long time as long as it is kept clean and never packed away damp. Even the prefilters should last 2-3 seasons.

[scottdevine]

Guys, its back! I am now way beside myself. Tonight was a nightmare and I'm very confused. I boiled down a 70 gallon batch last night, and finished off on propane tonight, took about an hour to get it to syrup. Went through the typical routine, heating bottles, stacking 5 pre filters into the BRAND NEW cloth filter (used twice), and filtered into the coffee urn...just like always, tonight, the filtering was awful...after filling 2 jars, and a bottle, my wife stopped, and we dumped the batch back into the propane pot. I cleaned up everything, and reset. Now the filter had a fairly decent amount of water in it, so i reheated the syrup and went to approx 67.5 BRIX and figured the water would compensate, filtered again, and it was still awful. Pre filters not catching much of anything the first or second time. The cloth filter both times had *some* niter in it. I was livid at this point...oh, i forgot during heating it the second time, it overflowed on me and i lost maybe a pint on my deck. Third times a charm right? This time i stacked 10 pre filters (not kidding), and used last years cloth filter, the one that gave me a problem when i started this thread. Still terrible. I have no idea how to proceed this season. I have 1.25 gallons of syrup sitting in a pot on my counter, and i'm going to bed. I picked up some plastic jugs when i got my new filters, and will use those for this batch, and quite possibly the rest of the season? I really am at a loss, it's only my 3rd year, but the filtering thing i had down last year, and after getting the new filter this year, thought i'd be fine.

[to100]

Did coffee urn ever have coffee in it? I had Sophmore problems with cloudy syrup for2 season.
Do you have space between each prefilter. Also the cloth from prefilters. Are they above pot syrup level?
I use black spring paper clips and or roll up prefilter for space at bottoms?
Soak urn in vinegar then baking soda?

You are not going to upper red line on hydrometer 58 brix or 32 Baumé scale
Lower red line is for cold test 60 degrees

[Haynes Forest Products]

I believe your trying to filter and bottle at the same time and keep the syrup up to bottling temp. That seems like an impossible task I will admit that I never was very successful using gravity filters for this very reason. To me stacking 5 prefilters makes no sense. If the prefilter is of a small enough micron how does niter get thru the first one past the second and so forth.
Would a course filter be better and let it dip all night and then reheating and use the small micron single filter and see if it filters faster. I understand your frustration with all the sticky wast ending in a pile of filter mud and syrup:cry:

[Super Sapper]

In my limited experience niter seems to change year to year. I also had a year when some batches stayed clear after bottling and some formed very fine niter afterwards. That was on flat filters, since going to a press I have had no issues. I think some filter aid would help get all of the niter out.

[scottdevine]

Did coffee urn ever have coffee in it? I had Sophmore problems with cloudy syrup for2 season.
Do you have space between each prefilter. Also the cloth from prefilters. Are they above pot syrup level?
I use black spring paper clips and or roll up prefilter for space at bottoms?
Soak urn in vinegar then baking soda?

You are not going to upper red line on hydrometer 58 brix or 32 Baumé scale
Lower red line is for cold test 60 degrees

Hi,
thank you for your comments, this coffee urn is dedicated to syrup, while it probably had coffee in it years ago, for the last 3 years its been syrup only. I have a 5 gallon bucket with a space carved out for the filters to hang below and drip into the coffee urn, there is really no space between the pre filters other than the thickness of what they offer. rolling up a prefilter for space sounds interesting, the would increase height, thus i would decrease prefilters to 3-4, but from what i have seen this season, the pre filters really aren't catching too much (compared to last year). I guess that is my entire frustration is what happened between last year and this year? my process was methodical and flawless, the syrup was beautiful. Maybe its just finer niter from the early runs, as last year the niter was this thick gooey mess, i have not seen that yet from these trees.

[scottdevine]

In my limited experience niter seems to change year to year. I also had a year when some batches stayed clear after bottling and some formed very fine niter afterwards. That was on flat filters, since going to a press I have had no issues. I think some filter aid would help get all of the niter out.

Its interesting you mentioned both of those ideas, as that is what i am researching today. obviously for a home "hobbiest" i want to keep costs down, and don't know what the press costs, but the season basically hasn't started in CT yet, i just tapped really early and caught a few runs, the majority of folks from what i heard at the CT Maple meeting on 1/20, were waiting for warmer weather (after presidents day to tap). I need to get this straightened out (again), before things really get underway. I will look at the additive first, i have another sugarmaker in CT that i can get some from to try i believe. I will keep this thread updated.

[scottdevine]

I believe your trying to filter and bottle at the same time and keep the syrup up to bottling temp. That seems like an impossible task I will admit that I never was very successful using gravity filters for this very reason. To me stacking 5 prefilters makes no sense. If the prefilter is of a small enough micron how does niter get thru the first one past the second and so forth.
Would a course filter be better and let it dip all night and then reheating and use the small micron single filter and see if it filters faster. I understand your frustration with all the sticky wast ending in a pile of filter mud and syrup:cry:

Hi,

yes we are filtering and keeping bottle temp at appropriate temp to fill. We have had great success, warming the urn, while syrup gets to proper BRIX, and also heating bottles in a 200 degree oven. My syrup has always been crystal clear, and at the correct BRIX (digital refractometer). The stacking of the prefulters proved to be very beneficial last season as it would catch 80% of the niter, and when one got plugged up, i would empty the unfiltered syrup into the next and so on until they were removed and i was left with the cloth, again, very effective for me. THis year however that method is not working at all. As you point out, i have no idea how anything is getting through, especially with a bran new (used twice so far) olean filter. I was actually thinking of using both of my olean filters last night, but knew i would have to reheat to 190, and bottle the next day, and then "lose" a lot of syrup in the filters, i know i can rinse in boiling sap, but then add to the niter mess. Im jsut in a bad place right now, and am looking for a quick fix (hand press I know...but $$ is turning me off). It just irks me that this worked so well all of last season, and twice this year after the cloth filter was replaced. ugh!

[n8hutch]

Are you using cone filters or flats? I think there are 2 kinds of cone prefilters, one of them has much larger pores and was either designed to catch large particles in sap or they are just plain cheap garbage, when you have both kinds in your hands there is an obvious difference.

We ran into this problem a few years back I draw off into milk pails and clip a cone prefilters around the top just to catch what I can. Well one season I wasn't catching anything in the cone prefilters so I took a closer look and grabed an old one and there was a huge difference in the material.. same size , same shape different filter media.

[scottdevine]

Are you using cone filters or flats? I think there are 2 kinds of cone prefilters, one of them has much larger pores and was either designed to catch large particles in sap or they are just plain cheap garbage, when you have both kinds in your hands there is an obvious difference.

We ran into this problem a few years back I draw off into milk pails and clip a cone prefilters around the top just to catch what I can. Well one season I wasn't catching anything in the cone prefilters so I took a closer look and grabed an old one and there was a huge difference in the material.. same size , same shape different filter media.

We are using cone filters, and i know exactly what you mean regarding the different materials...i am not happy with this years filters from the company i bought them from (not leader, or bascom)...not comfortable saying the company for whatever reasons, but i don't think the prefilter is the entire problem, but definitely a contributor. Where are you getting the "better" pre filters from?

[n8hutch]

No where in particular really, I just check the quality out first hand before i purchase them, I think the last set I bought was from Dave Fuller, but I'm sure you can get good quality ones at Bascoms or your local dealer, I think the ones that I believe are for sap are just given out bye mistake sometimes.

[scottdevine]

i have arranged to get some DE tonight to try..will post back with results through gravity.

[maple flats]

If the pre-filters are not catching the niter, I think that shows they are not the right ones. In that case, I might even wonder if they will catch the DE to form a filter cake. Get some good pre-filters. Then when you clean them never wring them nor the final filter.
Once you have a good prefilter (up to 5 stacked) the DE (filter aid) will be a big help. Try about 1/3-1/2 cup per gal of hot syrup (200+ is best)

[Super Sapper]

The prefilters should not matter in the finished product as they have a larger pore size than your finish filter. They can affect how fast your finish filter plugs up though. The prefilters catch the larger particles so they do not take up space on your final filter.

[to100]

I read you post again and I miss understood thinking it was first filtering of new batch, so my brix was wrong. Sorry I got confused myself when I was having same problem.

[buckeye gold]

As super sapper said, Nitre is different every year. This year mine is extremely fine and I am struggling to get it all out. I am now triple filtering. I usually filter very hot (210 or greater), but now I am letting my second filtering cool and reheating to 180 and filtering through a prefilter and final filter and That is doing pretty good. Most years I don't have filtering problems until the last week or 10 days of season. I am still getting a very small amount of very fine sugar sand in my bottles, but people are just gonna have to live with it. when it settles you can barely notice it on the bottom. Most years I would not accept any, but I can't get this stuff out it seems to make it past DE even. I have my bottling down pat, I know it's not coming from that.

[scottdevine]

As super sapper said, Nitre is different every year. This year mine is extremely fine and I am struggling to get it all out. I am now triple filtering. I usually filter very hot (210 or greater), but now I am letting my second filtering cool and reheating to 180 and filtering through a prefilter and final filter and That is doing pretty good. Most years I don't have filtering problems until the last week or 10 days of season. I am still getting a very small amount of very fine sugar sand in my bottles, but people are just gonna have to live with it. when it settles you can barely notice it on the bottom. Most years I would not accept any, but I can't get this stuff out it seems to make it past DE even. I have my bottling down pat, I know it's not coming from that.
its somewhat refreshing to hear all this. I have literally been losing my mind. I bottled it tonight in plastic jugs as its still not right. i didn't get the DE but will have it for the next batch when this CT cold passes over. very frustrating, i am ordering 2 more orlon filters and will look at changin out my pre-filters again. i really wanted to use glass this year, clean maple syrup is really beautiful.

[scottdevine]

If the pre-filters are not catching the niter, I think that shows they are not the right ones. In that case, I might even wonder if they will catch the DE to form a filter cake. Get some good pre-filters. Then when you clean them never wring them nor the final filter.
Once you have a good prefilter (up to 5 stacked) the DE (filter aid) will be a big help. Try about 1/3-1/2 cup per gal of hot syrup (200+ is best)

Great advice! thank you, just another demonstration of how great this community is! Looking at new pre-filters now.

[maple flats]

Thinking back, I had sugarsand back in 2008, maybe 2007 that was super fine and there was an extreme amount. That year I tried a trick that seemed to work. I set up a little pump with a hose on inlet and outlet. I set it up to use each day just before lighting the fire. The hoses were about 5/8" or 3/4" ID/ One the outlet side I tied a cone prefilter on. Then I ran the little pump to "vacuum" the sugarsand, pulling from and returning to the same channel. While it helped a lot, it did not catch all but after about 4-5 minutes the cone prefilter was rather heavy with sugarsand. I then tossed the sugarsand and resumed boiling. This seemed to help with the final filtering considerably. That spring I ordered my filter press which was on a super sale, at first a 3 bank 7", then as I got bigger, I added 2 more sets of plates.

[scottdevine]

So tonight i finished a 1.75 gallon batch and got some DE from another local producer. I finish on propane, so after taking the last hydrometer reading, i turned off the gas, dropped in 1/2C and whisked it around until dissolved, then poured the batch through the 5 stacked pre filters and through cloth into the coffee urn, and bottled. Long story short, syrup is clear, and i will use it again in the next batch. Having said that, the most inner filter clogged relatively quickly, but nothing i haven't seen before when heavy niter is present, filter 1 and 2 basically welded themselves together, which made for a challenging pour into pre filter 3. filters 4 and 5 were essentially fine, however the cloth ended up holding almost a pint of syrup that would not drain. I found that disappointing, but rinsed that into the next batch of sap. Moving forward i will use the DE again, i realize it's ultimately made for presses, but i'm a small producer, and for right now, its not worth the cost. Sure i'd love to have one, but for now, i'll make this work. At least i'm comfortable staying with glass bottles, and am proud of my syrup once again. It was tough tossing an additive into the batch. No impact to taste that we could detect. This photo isn't the best, but i'm very pleased with the results.
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[Haynes Forest Products]

No disrespect intended but calling DE an additive is misleading. It does not leave any part of itself or take anything away from the pure syrup. I would say your more likely to get something from the man made filters.

[maple flats]

Glad it worked. While I never heard of using it before I had my filter press, I've read accounts where several have used with good results.
Next comes your method, are you sure the syrup is still at 180 or more, if you filter it into the Coffee Urn with the heat turned off? Be careful to keep it hot enough or your nice perfectly filtered syrup might develop some mold.
For those questioning the need for stacking filters, that is so as one pre-filter starts to plug up, you can carefully dump the contents of the top one into the remaining stack and continue filtering. It's entirely possible, once you get some experience with adding the DE in you might not need 5, then try 4, then maybe 3 and possibly then just 2. Only time will tell. If you keep not needing to pour off from the top pre-filter because the flow gets too slow, maybe only one pre-filter will work. Just experiment.
The stacking was just to give you a fresh pre-filter as you needed to remove the top one because it plugged too much.

[MapleMark753]

I don't like DE, so there's the bias right out front. I KNOW its used and accepted and produces great results, just do not like the idea of it. So, I do believe that you can get excellent results from a cone filter and pre-filters. We have kept stuff in glass just for posterity for several years now and its real clear still, just using the felt and pre-filters set up. We do, like others above suggest, use newer, cleaner, filters in good repair, and don't twist or wring them out. And if you can or bottle at 185-195 little to no new niter should form and that temp is plenty hot for filtering (well, for us anyway). And others have also said that if you choose to bottle at boiling or right near boiling temp, its sort of asking for new niter to form (yeah, I did that a coupla times too in the first couple years).
Anyway, good luck with your filtering, and as always "your mileage may vary!" :)

[Sugarmaker]

Filtering small batches is always a challenge. Good felt cone filters and good prefilters (2) should be all you need to filter your syrup. If you have enough volume of syrup you may have to set up two stations. Yes sugarsand can vary from light to heavy from tan to purple kin color. The darker it is the harder it filters too! I have never used a electric coffee urn but I know many have done that before Just check the temp of the syrup being canned as mentioned it should be in the 180 F range.
Good luck. Dont give up. My guess would be that the cone filter is not up to par. Years ago we never had prefilters, just good clean cone filter should really do the job.
Regards,
Chris

[scottdevine]

No disrespect intended but calling DE an additive is misleading. It does not leave any part of itself or take anything away from the pure syrup. I would say your more likely to get something from the man made filters.

good point! thank you for the correction.