Weather question vs sap run

[Plutoman15]

Hello all,

This is my first year tapping in south central PA. I know the sweet spot is low 20’s at night and 40 during the day. Do you see much run if it is 28 low and 34 high or does it need to get warmer, bigger spread? How soon after the “perfect” swing of temps do you see sap and how long does it run if it fails to go below freezing for a few days.

This is the only chart I can find that shows sap run and temp swings.
17264

Thanks everyone,

Joe

[maple flats]

On gravity you generally will not get much if any flow at 34F. On the other end, 28 works but anything 27 or under gets better in my experience. The main thing at this point is that if you have had nearly as much cold as we have, those trees will need time to thaw. Some old timers used to go by the bare ring that develops around a tree, the sap won't flow good until those "donuts" appear. You might get some but it won't flow good yet. Of course that won't work if there is no snow cover to go by.

[DrTimPerkins]

Some old timers used to go by the bare ring that develops around a tree, the sap won't flow good until those "donuts" appear.

Weird fact....the inuit (Eskimo) word for the snow "donut" around the base of trees is qamaniq

You are correct, hard packed snow around the base of trees will keep the truck frozen, and not allow water to flow up and recharge the tree during the "freeze" phase, so no sap flow. Keep in mind that trees are big and full of moisture, so they are fairly highly buffered to changes in air temperature. It is the TREE temperature that is important in sap flow, not the air temperature. That is why trees may not flow even if the air temp gets to 38 deg F (if they've been deeply frozen for days before) or why tree may keep flowing even if the air temp falls to 30 deg F in the night (as long as the tubing doesn't freeze up). Tree temperature doesn't always equal air temperature, there is very frequently a large lag.

[GeneralStark]

Yes the old timers said something about snow around the trees but I have seen my woods run well with lots of snow around the trees....there is no hard fast rule and the same goes with temperature. Clouds vs. sun can have a huge impact... I have seen it run well when the air temp was below freezing but the trees were warmed in the sun...I have also seen it run poorly at 40 degrees under clouds.

This why I have adopted the strategy of just tapping the trees, turning the vac. pump on, not turning it off, and seeing what happens. Trying to remember all the old timer sayings and intuit what may happen just gets tiring.

[DrTimPerkins]

This why I have adopted the strategy of just tapping the trees, turning the vac. pump on, not turning it off, and seeing what happens. Trying to remember all the old timer sayings and intuit what may happen just gets tiring.

Sounds like a good plan to me. :)

[Evets]

Welcome to the obsession, Joe. I'm here in Lancaster county and I just finished tapping yesterday. Just a small backyard operation with 15 taps. The ones I put in yesterday were all trickling pretty good even though it was only just above freezing. Looking forward to a good run starting today!

[berkshires]

I only have a couple of years under my belt, so take this with a grain of salt, but... For a really good flow you want to see temps in the mid 40s at least, to get it going. Sun helps too. Then as long as it stays above freezing the sap will continue to flow (even overnight). However in my experience if it gets and stays really warm, after a day or two the sugar levels in the sap really drop off.

To recharge the trees, yeah, you need a good freeze. Dr Tim has told us that the slower the freeze, the better the next sap run is. So I think if it just drops in a few hours from above freezing to -20 and is windy, I think no matter how warm the next warmup is, the trees just don't have as much sap stored in the trunk and branches, so you'll have a smaller flow.

Hope that helps!

[Plutoman15]

Thank you everyone, I love the discussion.
I starting keeping bees a few years ago and this hobby feels like it has the same addictive potential.

I am about to go out and check my buckets. i am hoping the 45 degree day got things cranking. I would like to boil tomorrow but need sap. I think yesterday never got warm enough at 34f. Only got a dribble yesterday.

Update: not great. Maybe a pint or 2 from 7 taps. It is deep woods and most are on a north facing slope so maybe they need thawd more. The one was dripping decent.

[Plutoman15]

My trees don’t seem to be flowing well. The ones that get the most sun seem to do better dispit it being
56F today. From 7 taps I got 3/4 gallon of sap. From 2 walnut trees I got 1/2 gallon of sap. The walnuts are almost open trees. The Maples are in the middle of the wood.

So is a quick warm up better than a slow?

[BAP]

What direction is the wind? Is it blowing hard?

[Plutoman15]

Not much wind today. Light breeze at best. Sunny the first half and cloudy the second. High of 56F. Still 53 this evening.

[Plutoman15]

Wow, I tapped 2 walnut trees today and the one is cranking. Probably got 2-3 quarts from it in less than 12 hours. That is what I was hoping the maples would do but aren’t even close.

Is the weather more conducive for walnut flow as oppose to Maple? Or do I have defective Maples?

[maple flats]

The maples are likely not "defective". A defective maple is a dead or dying one.
Just remember, mother nature is in charge and at times she's a tough lady to figure out.

[psparr]

Think of your trees as women. They all look pretty much the same, but they can act wildly different.

[johnallin]

Think of your trees as women. They all look pretty much the same, but they can act wildly different.
But if they can both cook...may as well marry the pretty one!

[Evets]

Good news and bad news for me. I checked a few of my 15 buckets this morning. The good news is that every bucket I checked was at least 3/4 full! The bad news is I'm sick. I came down with a bad head cold 2 days ago and feel like crap! Oh well, I guess I gotta suck it up and go gather my sap.

[Sugarmaker]

Sometimes its just the trees! Not all maples are created equal. May try some different trees in different locations. Getting good runs= good healthy trees, warms temps, sun or rain helps too. Then to reset them after a day or two of wam and good hard frost will allow them to start up again. Expect 10 -20 of these event in a normal season. Remember that is no such thing as a normal season!:) You mileage may vary!
Regards,
Chris

[Plutoman15]

I have a big old Norway that is completely open that i plan to tap soon and test and see if the sugar content is different from the tight woods ones. After doing some more reading, I suspect my low sugar (.75-1%) may be because I am too early in the season. At least I am hoping that is the case. I have another dozen Norway's I can tap and have enough slope (20 feet or so) to string them together and get some natural vacuum. Also thinking that I will get better flow in a few weeks. Even though I am in south central PA I think most of the maples just aren't getting that "Spring" fling yet since they sit deep in the woods and are hidden on the north side of a hill.

Maybe you sugar maple guys can get a away with tapping early but I am thinking my Norway's need to be close to peak for proper sugar content.

[Sugarmaker]

Plutoman15,
Have you tapped the Norway maples with good results before? Maybe others on here have some experience? My gut feel is that your low sugar content is because they are Norway maples??? But if you have gathered 2% sap from them in the past then maybe they are protesting?
Our sugar maples are producing 2% sap. But the weather is not very warm and the sap quantities have been reduced.
Regards,
Chris

[Plutoman15]

This is my first year tapping so this is the learning year, both in knowledge and what my tree inventory can produce. I have read that lots of people see decent sugar levels in Norway's but I am guessing it is all over the map. My visual hydrometer comes on Monday so I will wait until then to tap and test the big open Norway versus my deep and hidden woods Norway's. It is probably 2-3 feet in diameter and sits completely alone on a hill. Fingers crossed otherwise I may have to wait 7-10 years for the sweet silvers and the super sweet sugar maples (RPM) that I will be planting this Spring.

[Sugarmaker]

Ahhhh you may have to wait 40 years to tap those newly planted maples! I would look to the neighbors for trees if you want to expand your operation. Good luck.
Regards,
Chris

[Plutoman15]

You might be right but they claim with the RPM root system that the super sweet sugars are able to be tapped as soon as 8-10 years and the sweet Silvers in 7-10. I am sure even then things need to be optimal. They will be planted where they get full sun and zero tree competition. They will be in a straight row with some nice fall so someday I can string them together and pull some natural vacuum...at least that is the plan :rolleyes:. Let's see how many birthdays I see between now and then.

There is another thread that started in like 2011 that some planted some of these trees. I am hoping someone updates on how these trees have grown. Sweet Silvers claim 3-5% and the super sweet sugar claim 6-7%.

"Cornell University’s College of Agriculture and Life Sciences recently worked with the RPM process to develop the Super Sweet Sugar Maple. The new Super Sweet grows three times as fast as an average maple, and provides sap that could be boiled down into syrup, say Cornell scientists. The RPM system produced significantly larger Super Sweets in a short amount of time. Currently, Cornell’s College of Agriculture and Life Sciences is conducting a study on the benefits of the Super Sweet in regards to syrup production and quality." http://www.scijourner.org/2012/11/17/rooted-in-science-grounded-in-nature/

[Etown Maple Syrup]

Hey Joe, welcome aboard. I'm in Elizabethtown. I have not tapped yet. I am waiting for the sun to warm the trees and hit 40 for a few days. That would put tapping usually around Feb 10. I have tapped in the January thaw before but ended up with more ice in the lines and buckets. I always said I should just wait until the second Saturday in Feb. I tap Reds and Sugar Maples. As others have sais, the temps are not an exact indicator. Conditions very. When the trees are ready, they will flow. In this area, it is not a lengthy run. Three to four weeks, then they shut off from warmer daily temps and no overnight freeze.
Ross

[Plutoman15]

Thanks Ross. Weather is pretty close to mine in Marion, PA. a 3-4 week season is fine with me since it is all for personal use.

I have some more equipment coming Monday and time so middle of next week through the weekend I plan on making some more taps and testing every tree to see what I get. The little sap (.75-1% sugar) I got last week had an off green flavor.

Joe

[sticknstring]

17392



Hopefully the screenshot posted.... A couple questions regarding that forecast....A) this forecast looks favorable to get some sap flowing, am i correct?

B) if so, is it too early still to tap? Ive read a couple places that the early sap can be very low sugar content, do u throw the furst little bit out, or just wing it(if u dont have a way to measure the sugar percentage in sap)

C) if i do tap a couple trees, can i leave the bucket there and gather it mid week or will it over flow a 5 gallon bucket or possibly go bad in those temps left outside?

I plan to tap a couple trees at our ground which is a 35 minute drive, and i will definitely be back up next saturday. Was thinking thats way too long a time period, so i'd like to maybe just plan to go up wednesday after work. Versus having to get up two or three times. With the schedule, thats just really tough. If 4 days is too long, i will just wait to tap until wednesday and then itll only be a couple days til i get up to collect. Thanks for helpin with info

[Etown Maple Syrup]

sticknstring, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the early sap flow is a higher sugar content and it diminishes as the season advances. A simple sap hydrometer would answer those questions. I have had buckets overflow with sap and was overjoyed at first then mad that I did not have a larger collection bucket. You collect when you can. Sap sitting in a bucket for a week at this time of year is not going to spoil. It may freeze/thaw. Keep the rain out or you will boil longer. Like storing it in your refrigerator. Sap in a bucket later in the season when the daily temps are warmer and the sun is beating on it, will spoil or turn milky faster. Either way, it sounds like you will have a fun time making syrup!
Ross

[berkshires]

17392



Hopefully the screenshot posted.... A couple questions regarding that forecast....A) this forecast looks favorable to get some sap flowing, am i correct?

Yeah, maybe a little Tuesday, some more Weds, and Sunday.


B) if so, is it too early still to tap?

That's a complicated question. It depends on too many factors for anyone to be able to say for you.


Ive read a couple places that the early sap can be very low sugar content, do u throw the furst little bit out, or just wing it(if u dont have a way to measure the sugar percentage in sap)

Never heard of anyone who throws out early sap because it's low sugar. Earlier sap tends (on average) to make lighter colored syrup. That's not the same as low sugar.



C) if i do tap a couple trees, can i leave the bucket there and gather it mid week or will it over flow a 5 gallon bucket or possibly go bad in those temps left outside?


If the forecast comes true, I doubt you'll overflow a 5 gallon bucket in a few days. Maybe if you had three or four days in the fifties, with overnight lows in the 20s. And no, with highs 35-40, it should not go bad in a few days unless your buckets are really dirty to start with.


I plan to tap a couple trees at our ground which is a 35 minute drive, and i will definitely be back up next saturday. Was thinking thats way too long a time period, so i'd like to maybe just plan to go up wednesday after work. Versus having to get up two or three times. With the schedule, thats just really tough. If 4 days is too long, i will just wait to tap until wednesday and then itll only be a couple days til i get up to collect. Thanks for helpin with info

Again, if your forecast comes true, I doubt you'll get a crazy amount of sap. I drive 2 hours each way to get to my sugarbush, so believe me, I understand the difficulties around scheduling.

[Plutoman15]

So the Norway on the open hill I meantioned earlier just tested 3.5% sugar! Very excited about that and way higher than the 1.25% some of the woods Norways are showing. Hopefully it produces a lot of sap as well.

Also tested buckets last night that were 90% ice. The remaining liquid sap tested as high as 8% or higher.

Weather looks good the next week or so.

Update: i tested one of my woods norways and it is now testing 2.5%. I am wondering if Jan was just too early when it tested 1% or less or maybe I somehow got a bunch of rain water in my buckets.

Joe