2018 Bulk Price

[WestfordSugarworks]

I apologize if this is already an active thread, but I couldn't find one with a few quick searches.

I am curious about the anticipated drop in bulk pricing for the 2018 season. I've heard widely that the price is expected to drop. I guess I'll find out more at this Saturday's maple conference in Hyde Park.

I don't think the Federal Reserve up in Quebec have posted their 2018 prices yet, but last year they were paying 2.95 a pound and 2.94 a pound for the top two grades. I don't imagine they will drop their price a whole lot, but maybe they will, I don't know. Their prices last year were the same as the previous year.

Some other factors I think of

-Canadian dollar is about 4 cents higher than it was this time last year (so this should result in a more favorable price paid to American producers)

-Quebec dominates the market and controls pricing to a strong degree through their reserve

-The reserve is meant to stabalize prices and it seems to work overall for Quebec producers, but our prices our dropping

Here is my question- Why do our syrup prices continue to drop despite the relatively steady price that Quebec has set over the last few years? In my unexperienced and unknowing mind, our bulk payment should be whatever it costs to buy imported Quebec syrup (taking into account exchange rate, obviously).

I feel I understand the recent oversupply issues that we have been facing, but given the stable existence of the reserve, why are American bulk prices dropping? Shouldn't the reserve temper that? What allows packers to pay American producers less than what they would have to pay syrup that comes from Quebec?

Thanks for any insight into this and good luck in the 2018 season.

[markcasper]

What allows packers to pay American producers less than what they would have to pay syrup that comes from Quebec?




Because you and I will haul it in to them is the simple answer. Law of supply and demand at work. The dollar has not dropped enough yet to measure as these things take time to work through. I was told just a few weeks ago by a major buyer in Wisconsin that even if it was a disastrous season world wide in 2018, there is still enough reserve syrup sitting around to last close to the 2019 season without prices moving upwards at all. He mentioned prices dropping another .20 cents per lb., but that drop was not confirmed from any "reliable" sources. They won't get much commercial syrup @$1.00 lb. I know that. And then one day once again someone will realize there is a shortage, and then the equipment catalogs will once more state on the back cover to "hang on at the evaporator just a few more days". As Bruce Bascom once stated.

[Mark]

I had a buyer tell me that most producers live hand to mouth and they have to accept what I am offering. Why sell when it is low? You can buy used stainless shipping containers that are insulated and easy to cool.

[GeneralStark]

"Why do our syrup prices continue to drop despite the relatively steady price that Quebec has set over the last few years?"

Several factors, some of which you mention. First is exchange rate....second is two record years in a row in the US and Canada...and the third is that the federation essentially acts like a cartel. We have more a free market system so supply and demand affects pricing more dramatically affects our bulk pricing. The federation can set the price because they have the largest supply of maple syrup and they control how it is apportioned into the market. There is obviously more nuance but these are the major factors.

SO what can US producers do about it? Several things likely but a couple ideas would be to set quotas on expansion here in the US as they do in Quebec. Wait for a bad season or two. Or given that we have a federal administration apparently happy to slap tariffs on imported goods (solar panels most recently), producers could advocate for a tariff on canadian syrup....

[BAP]

As long as people keep expanding production without finding BRAND NEW Markets, and warehouses are full with Maple Syrup, the bulk price is going to stay the same or continue to plummet. Everyone complains about the low price of bulk, but then turn around add more taps. If you strictly rely on bulk sales and don’t try to market your syrup retail, then you lose and really don’t have anyone to blame but yourself.

[Atgreene]

^ What he said. If you're wholesaling your syrup you're helping to drive the price down. It's supply and demand, everyone keeps adding more taps to make up for the lower price. Blame Canada all you want, but more taps without more market doesn't help bring the price up.

Here's a thought, everyone tap less trees this year.

[maple flats]

Here's a far more profitable suggestion, tap more trees, but retail all of the grade A you make. Develop markets and sell it all at retail. Also, convert some into value added products.
I have not sold any bulk except Commercial in 2 years and the year before that I had graded one barrel as Com. but they bought it as Very Dark.

[markcasper]

Here's a far more profitable suggestion, tap more trees, but retail all of the grade A you make. Develop markets and sell it all at retail. Also, convert some into value added products.


I don't dispute your way of thinking, but what you say is easier said than done. Why? Because all your neighbors and their added taps are direct competition against you. Your neighboring sugarmaker is your worst enemy. We are in a difficult time in this part of history no doubt. It takes a vast amount of time to "add value" and develop new markets and that time most likely is better utilized else where in terms of making money. Depends on everyones situation of course.

I have noticed several producers trying to sell syrup at $60-$65 a gallon and $18-$20 a quart. Sorry, but that is highway robbery for a product that people do not need. If your able to sell all of your syrup at that price great! If your selling at those prices and still have to sell bulk at $22 a gallon, maybe you should lower your retail price and not complain about why bulk prices are so low and going lower!

The RO's and vacuum tubing of today have ultimately brought us to this point.

[Parker]

Hunh...with a major packer in vt saying they are only going to buy 90% of what they bought from their steady suppliers and there already being oversupply in the market (i was at bascoms a week ago and bruce told me he had enough syrup on site to meet his packing needs until this comming august) plus the price now at 2.10 for fancy (but call first cause they dont really want too much more........).......and major taps added this year. (Lots and lots)....i dont think price will stay where it is...and i dont think you will be rolling tractor trailer loads of barrels anywhere without some negotiation.....
But all it would take is 2 bad years in a row.......really?....in the past sure,,but when you are serious about vacuum and you maintain 28.5 inches you can make a whole lot of syrup in 5 or 6 days........plus lots of taps have been added this year....more than the demand has grown...and the crown added how many taps?
The folks who depend on industry expansion and real low bulk prices will say all kinds of things to keep you adding taps because it bennifits them,,,cant blame them...
I know a bunch of folks that retail their syrup and need more supply to meet markets....but...if you are shipping bbls why would you add taps now???
The demand and the price will be dropping for bulk.....
Quotas...come on man....if you want to roll the dice and add 10k taps now you know the risk,,,,why should you be rewarded with a quota? Its a free market...
I really think the market will be pretty brutal in 3 to 4 months
Value added and retail market share are critical.....now more than ever
I do wish everyone the best of luck mabey some huge market will open up,,but,,im not banking on it

[Parker]

The syrup that comes from qubec costs something to get it here...when you truck it to the packer they save a little money.....im not sure but i think that if you buy from the federation you have so much a year you have to buy...if the packer is committed to buy a certin ammount and they only need so much from the u.s and there is an oversupply here......Im betting 2 a pound once the season starts and dropping from there .....

In the past how many taps were set in january in the u.s........and how many taps are ready to go today in the u.s.,,,,,,,,,,,i dont think a bad year is a real possibility

[wdchuck]

......all of it and then some. This is whats known as the race to the bottom. I've been predicting it for 2 years now. Maple producers mostly sell in bulk, at the prevailing price, set by the packers, and higher up the chain ,the Quebec federation......Keep adding taps, and we're headed in the direction of dairy!
Parker, if you're over my way, give me a holler, I'll buy you a beer and we can talk economics.

[Wannabe]

The RO's and vacuum tubing of today have ultimately brought us to this point.

True story.

[maple flats]

While I'm a small producer it is not because that is all I can sell, it is because I have slowed down due to my age. I do not try to scalp the customer, but I sell at what I feel is the fairest compromise in price for the customer and me. If you want to see my prices, the link is at the bottom of my signature at the bottom of this post.
My sales gain strength every year as more and more of my customers tell their friends and associates about my syrup. I do not buy the comment that modern tubing systems and vacuum have created an over supply. I think we all just need to add to our customer base. Since about 75% of my sales are online and shipped, my neighbor is also not my enemy either. We are all in this together, but not all of us are doing enough to expand our markets. Many don't even try to retail and sell everything or at least the lion's share of their production to bulk buyers. That, coupled with the Canadian exchange rate have cut the bulk prices.
Bruce Bascom says in his catalog that world wide syrup use is growing by 7% every year, what are you doing to make your retail sales grow by 7% or more? There lies the issue.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

TARIFF CANADIAN SYRUP 65% and any packing company they buy here in the US!!

[Scm]

..........

[Atgreene]

We've never wholesaled, retail it all at $60 / gallon. We've been building a customer base for over 100 years and only making what we need. I'd be foolish to invest more money to be able to sell wholesale. My time is better spent working other parts of my farm that generate more profit than $2/lb syrup.

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.

[markcasper]

Which is why it would seem many producers are crying poor, when they slit their own throats by financing expansions during a market that has a discernible downward trend in price per unit. Your analysis is spot on. I nominate you for a Nobel prize in Maple Economics. Producers should be holding fast, if not reducing production ever so slightly and trying to expand markets, which would put pressure on correcting the chase to the bottom. How can we expand a market for something that no-one needs for survival, or is essentially a luxury item?

Glass, glass baby.

There are those hereabouts that will proselytize up and down that the buying public has no use for glass and that 99 and 44/100ths of their production flies off the shelf in plastic. The public doesn't buy glass because they are not given the choice, not because they will not purchase it.

The food industry has waged jihad on glass for decades, for no more than trying to maximize profits through reduced shipping costs. Who cares if plastic is measurably worse for the environment, leaches compounds heretofore un-consumed by humans, or that it imparts of flavors into the profile of the product contained after a time. This inculcation and dumbing down of the consumer has also filtered into producers. Why?

Although I am still shooting for the 100 gallon season, I package in 100% glass. I charge $25 for a litre and $15 for 1/2 litres. Not once last season did a customer say, "geesze it looks great and what not, but can you match the price of that guy who packages in plastic?" Rather the response was, more often than naught, "W0w! you can see the product and it looks beautiful." I sold out my entire production, and ended up having to buy syrup for my own consumption.

This is a low hanging fruit and I am quite surprised more producers are not trying this as a strategy to increase direct sales.

I realize what you are saying! I have not sold one gallon in plastic this past year. I bottle all glass, though I have a few plastic for "just in case". My customers do not want plastic. I have noticed over the years that the New England states push alot of plastic, while here in Wisconsin it is primarily glass, and especially for quart and pint sizes. I have never seen a bush from Vermont advertise a quart glass decanter, while in WI the mainstay is a quart glass decanter. Not anything scientific with my findings other than its the truth.

[markcasper]

I cannot believe that you don't think vacuum tubing and RO's have not contributed to an oversupply!? Since purchasing an RO I have double/tripled my production with vacuum pipeline, cut my hours in the sugarhouse by 2/3rd's, along with getting rid of any hired help (actually can't find any.) This kind of production before was simply unattainable. There wasn't enough hours in a day, no way! Kind of baffles me that you wouldn't agree?
As for your neighbor, I guess I should have rephrased it by saying your neighbor is your competition, maybe not for you, but the majority of us would fall into this category. So Bascom says world sales are increasing 7% per year. Depending on the source, production has increased 10 - 15% per year. That is a problem. I do agree with others, there should be something of a tariff put on all this Canadian syrup flooding our markets. Its time to start putting the U.S. first again instead of being a dumping ground for the rest of the world! I guess in the end, supply and demand will iron everything out and there will certainly be many losers, especially in the U.S.

[spud]

I was told prices are dropping another .20cents this year. Butternut has 18,000 barrels of syrup in warehouses right now. As the world market for syrup increases 7% a year, the bulk price of syrup decreases 10%. It's still a good time to get into sugaring but hold off on those big AG loans. I know a handful of people that have these Ag loans and their in a panic every year just to make the yearly payment. When your day job has to help pay for your Ag loan payment you know your in trouble.

Spud

[n8hutch]

No offense fellas but if everyone put their syrup in glass bottles this over supply issue would still be the same , syrup consumers are not going to start using more syrup just because it's in a glass bottle. Sure it looks good and yes I do bottle maybe 10-15% in glass but it's just not a driver of change.

More time needs to be spent on expanding your markets and sampling syrup, most people think there's only a few ways to use maple syrup. Educating the public on the health benefits of maple syrup vs corn syrup, and the many ways it can be used are the only way to increase demand in my opinion. I don't sell any bulk syrup, in fact I bought over a 100 gallons last year over and above what I made, I only want to make syrup that I can retail.

The bulk price will not recover in my opinion until the U.S. dollar and the Canadian dollar at at Par. And I don't see that happening until the next recession.

[DrTimPerkins]

At current prices (Canadian bulk price at $2.95/lb, U.S. bulk price at $2.00/lb), then approximately 59% of the reason U.S. prices are low is attributable to the Canadian $ to U.S. $ exchange rate, and 41% is attributable to oversupply. Currently, oversupply is driving the continued downward price trend in the U.S. Without any oversupply, U.S. bulk prices would be around $2.39, which most producers would probably be satisfied with.

[Parker]

I have hust finished reading bruce's book....a real eye opener in terms of the bulk market........
Its not like the bulk situation is a big surprise....and its not like the bulk price is ever going to go up all too much...common sense....but....what gets me is the add more taps cheerleaders....if you read bruces book you see canadian syrup is more expensive that current u.s. syrup...packers make their living on the margin (thats their job, and packers work hard to develop and keep their markets) the more syrup is made in the u.s. the less they have to pay and the more they make (good biz).....
The more efficiant you are the lower the bulk price has to be to make it, but you still need to be able to move product to make money..and with a saturated market for bulk it does not seem like a great time to add a bunch of taps to me, but, to each their own
I stopped at a sugarhouse in marshfield vt this fall that was being built,,,a palace,,millions of dollars,,like 70,000 taps,,i asked the manager where they were planning to sell the syrup,,he said "we will figure it out"
I think there is a fair ammount of expansion going on where folks dont need to make a profit (maple guild in island pond for example) showing a loss on paper can be helpful in some situations
We are in interesting times in the industry and it will be interesting to see what the market looks like in june

[Parker]

And, i think, the federation is not happy about losing market share to u.s producers and i believe they will lower their price going forward to squeeze out all the u.s producers that they can (why are they adding so many taps when they have an oversupply allready?
Invest in retailing your syrup...its a pajn and alot of work but bulk prices are not going up anytime soon

[Louie]

I was told prices are dropping another .20cents this year. Butternut has 18,000 barrels of syrup in warehouses right now. As the world market for syrup increases 7% a year, the bulk price of syrup decreases 10%. It's still a good time to get into sugaring but hold off on those big AG loans. I know a handful of people that have these Ag loans and their in a panic every year just to make the yearly payment. When your day job has to help pay for your Ag loan payment you know your in trouble.

Spud I was told if you can't make your ag loan they will write it down for you. The Department of AG can't go lower than what they would get at an auction. One guy told me it was just government money anyway. How hard do they try to get the money out of you up your way?

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.

[GeneralStark]

I sell lots of syrup in glass and I do find that many customers prefer it for a number of reasons. But, I do find that packing exclusively in glass would limit my sales, especially for people traveling...I also find it difficult to force some philosophical presumption onto people, and while my preference is glass, I'm not going to try to convince someone it should be theirs. But to each their own...

In the syrup in plastic jugs race to the bottom, it still appears that Craigs List is the choice for producers looking to compensate for low bulk prices. I see Thad's gallon prices are still the lowest in VT for big jugs, but the kid selling pints for $6 and half pints for $3.50 has him beat....

[maple flats]

While I sell all of my grade A syrup at retail, and I offer both glass and plastic in all but my bourbon barrel aged maple syrup (that is only packed in glass) I sell very little in glass. Most of my customers buy plastic because it saves them money.
Maybe I'm too much of a realist, but my glass prices reflect my cost of the container. In any given size I take the comparable plastic jug, subtract the jug cost, find the syrup /oz and then get add the glass price , do the math, and that's then my in glass price. My customers vote with their pocket books.
I even had a nice display at a boutique, with several choices in glass, showing 2 and 3 faces on the shelf with only 1 face each size in plastic. I only sold 2 containers in glass adding sales for both Nov and Dec., aside from the Bourbon Barrel aged syrup, in that I had 2 faces in glass and sold 56 bottles during that time at that location. My syrup in glass does look crystal clear too, it is not the least bit cloudy.
I do not try to force my customers to buy one over the other, I simply pack and sell what they want.

[Super Sapper]

When people say that glass is more expensive than plastic are they talking just fancy glass? I can get glass quart decanter bottles for just over a buck a piece but plastic is around $1.50. For me glass is cheaper than plastic unless you go with fancy glass.

[WestfordSugarworks]

At current prices (Canadian bulk price at $2.95/lb, U.S. bulk price at $2.00/lb), then approximately 59% of the reason U.S. prices are low is attributable to the Canadian $ to U.S. $ exchange rate, and 41% is attributable to oversupply. Currently, oversupply is driving the continued downward price trend in the U.S. Without any oversupply, U.S. bulk prices would be around $2.39, which most producers would probably be satisfied with.


Thanks Dr. Tim.

[GeneralStark]

At current prices (Canadian bulk price at $2.95/lb, U.S. bulk price at $2.00/lb), then approximately 59% of the reason U.S. prices are low is attributable to the Canadian $ to U.S. $ exchange rate, and 41% is attributable to oversupply. Currently, oversupply is driving the continued downward price trend in the U.S. Without any oversupply, U.S. bulk prices would be around $2.39, which most producers would probably be satisfied with.

So in other words, the best thing US bulk producers could do if they want prices to go up $.39 would be to collectively limit their production for a season. Perhaps everyone can agree to only set 3/4 of their taps this year. Who's in?

[gbeneke]

I'm just a 40 gallon maple addict who sells a little for $9/12 ozs. and gives away a lot of syrup to my friends and my church so I have no stake in maple prices. I have noticed 4 things on the maple forums:
1. Almost every one on these forums starts small and within 5 years they are 5x, 10x or 100x their beginning production, which is affecting prices.
2.Maple syrup is getting easier to do than it was 10 years or even 5 years ago, so the drudgery of collecting buckets is not helping to keep down prices.
3. Shiny stainless steel attracts new maple farmers. Like the dairy price fiasco, equipment dealers do better sometimes than the producers.
4. Big money gets into agriculture when something is easier to produce and they do things in a big way. There are 50,000 cow farms that have put a lot of 50 cow farms out of business.
This is not meant to pee anyone off but is just what I have seen in my 60 years around dairy farms. Thank God, maple sugaring is still fun and a great family venture. I doubt that you will be able to cooperatively tap less to control prices.

[markcasper]

2.Maple syrup is getting easier to do than it was 10 years or even 5 years ago, so the drudgery of collecting buckets is not helping to keep down prices.

Exactly a true statement! Some on here do not see it this way. I'll go even further and say that most of the commercial syrup, industrial syrup, processing grade, or whatever XYZ grade it will be called tomorrow glut can be attributed to the checkvalves, new drop/spout every year, not shutting the vacuum off til the leafs are on the trees technology. The equipment people were highly responsible for this as well and encouraged the production of lower quality syrup and to "hang on at the evaporator a few more days", Bruce Bascom, Bascom Maple Farms catalogs. Saying that RO's and vacuum tubing do not contribute to an oversupply is like saying you didn't get more and faster milk from a Surge bucket than when cows were milked by hand.



4. Big money gets into agriculture when something is easier to produce and they do things in a big way. There are 50,000 cow farms that have put a lot of 50 cow farms out of business.

Easier to produce when their allowed to use unchecked illegal aliens that get paid peanuts. The farmer that doesn't use them cannot compete and gets pushed out.

[markcasper]

At current prices (Canadian bulk price at $2.95/lb, U.S. bulk price at $2.00/lb), then approximately 59% of the reason U.S. prices are low is attributable to the Canadian $ to U.S. $ exchange rate, and 41% is attributable to oversupply. Currently, oversupply is driving the continued downward price trend in the U.S. Without any oversupply, U.S. bulk prices would be around $2.39, which most producers would probably be satisfied with.

Actually by checking out the dollar chart (US/Canadian chart almost identical) https://www.barchart.com/stocks/quotes/$DXY/technical-chart?plot=BAR&volume=0&data=WO&density=X&pricesOn=1&asPctChange=0&logscale=0&sym=$DXY&grid=1&height=500&studyheight=100

I got $2.60/lb for bulk syrup the end of 2015, the chart shows the dollar was high for practically an entire year before this in 2014, yet it did not seem to affect the price paid until after the 2016 crop was made. So I am not entirely believeing the whole story about the exchange rate being the biggest reason for the depressed prices. Yes, using todays exchange value, US syrup should have a value to a US packer of at least $2.40/ lb. The dollar has been losing steam now for awhile and the gap is getting closer, so packers are going to have to come up with new excuses pretty soon!

[Scm]

..........

[n8hutch]

I got $2.60/lb for bulk syrup the end of 2015, the chart shows the dollar was high for practically an entire year before this in 2014, yet it did not seem to affect the price paid until after the 2016 crop was made. So I am not entirely believeing the whole story about the exchange rate being the biggest reason for the depressed prices. Yes, using todays exchange value, US syrup should have a value to a US packer of at least $2.40/ lb. The dollar has been losing steam now for awhile and the gap is getting closer, so packers are going to have to come up with new excuses pretty soon![/QUOTE]

I do think that the Packers might be taking advantage of the over supply by increasing their Margins over what they had in years past. Albeit they really need to if they are going to sit on it longer. And it is a good deal for them that they can get the syrup delivered to their door.

I'm sure there is some cost savings if a packer can have a bulk trailer load of syrup delivered from Canada vs, handling 100 barrels of syrup produced by smaller operations. Im sure they have these expenses figured out and that more than likely effects how much they are willing to pay.

[berkshires]

I'm just a hobby producer, but to me the whole approach to the issue here is laughable. As long as you keep thinking in these narrow ways, the price will just keep dropping. All of you seem think the only solution is curbing oversupply, or by marketing your own retail product better. It's just my opinion, but from what I've seen of the world that's nonsense.

The solution is marketing, branding, advertising, whatever you want to call it. If in ten years every crappy product on the shelves said "now with real maple syrup" there would be no oversupply - the bulk syrup would go out the door faster than you could make it. The trouble is all of y'all seem way too individualistic to ever work together and part with any of your hard-earned cash to some sleazy advertising firm. Well if you can ever get over yourselves, I can tell you that you could sell the worst tasting bulk that's got squirrel fur floating in it with the right marketing campaign. There's a reason why marketing firms make so much money - because they work.

Just throwing in my (bulk-priced) $.02

Gabe

[berkshires]

And just to clarify, I mean the kind of branding campaign that would require a national maple organization. Not something that individual retailers could likely pull off. I dunno, maybe you could do something at the state or regional level? But as long as it's dog-eat-dog, it's just going to continue to be a race to the bottom.

[Parker]

Read the book "a sugar season" it goes into some detail on costs associated with getting syrup out of the federation,,,,it is not cheap with many requirments,,but,,spread out over thousands of bbls its less of a factor,,but still a factor to be ADDED to that $2.40 price....that being said i totaly understand the packers reasons and respect them...they are in it to make money and work hard to get and maintain in a cut throat market....no one ever told me i would get $3.00 a pound for all the syrup i made forever....packers only have so big a market and can borrow so much money (and why would they want to pay interest on money they dont need to spend especialy when they know during a bumper crop the longer they wait to buy the less they have to pay as producer loans come due),,,, and they can only store so much syrup....its not their job to bail you out if you morgatged the farm on your maple dream during these times...they want to make a profit and the less they have to pay the more of their dreams they can fund......
If you think its a good time to expand go to someone who buys syrup and sells equipmentt,,tell them you want all the stuff for 10k taps and you will pay them in syrup at the current price at the end of the season......
At the same time this represents an oppertunity to export syrup into canada ...wouldent that frost the federations pancakes....
There is oppertunity in every market if you look in the right spot,,,but,,you have to look my friends..retail is the low haning fruite,,,but i think of the guys i know with 50k taps and thats alot of retailing......
Good luck

[GeneralStark]

And just to clarify, I mean the kind of branding campaign that would require a national maple organization. Not something that individual retailers could likely pull off. I dunno, maybe you could do something at the state or regional level? But as long as it's dog-eat-dog, it's just going to continue to be a race to the bottom.

State associations are doing a great deal..why do many think of Vermont when they think of maple syrup? VT has been marketing maple longer than anyone...but I know many producers that don't join the state associations...

You do raise an interesting philosophical point however...why would most of the producers of Quebec come together to agree to form the federation and essentially regulate their production in a cooperative fashion? And what are the chances of this ever happening in the US?

Our free market system certainly has its advantages, but Quebec certainly has an advantage in terms of pricing right now with their regulated market approach...

And not all of us in this forum are bulk producers complaining about the prices...many of us have built our operations through the sale of products we produce and expand our tap counts accordingly.

[maple flats]

While a national campaign could help a lot, I see no advantage to bundling the syrup into one pool. It is well documented that each area produces a syrup taste unique to that region. I feel that is why I do so well selling all of my syrup at retail.
That was not always the case, in my early years I retailed it all, but then my production grew faster than my market, I then sold bulk for about 8 seasons. Then after 2015 I cut back and have only grown to meet my retail demand (from 1320 in 2015, to 725 in 2016 to 750 in 2017 and then 850 this season.
I far prefer keeping marketing on a local level, thus I think local co-op's could be helpful but not state wide or even worse, regional. I realize that some producers might not be able to market all they make for various reasons, but I feel most should try to market more. This might be a place for even without a formal co-op or other arrangement, the local producers in each are might well benefit from keeping a list of what syrup other local producers have on hand that might be for sale. That way, as one runs low, they could buy from a local producer. This way there could easily be a price arrived at somewhere in between what bulk buyers pay and what bulk sellers sell for, making it a win/win for both parties. That would also help keep the regional flavors protected.
I see part of the bulk price issue as being caused by too many needing their cash NOW , rather than waiting and I understand how that is, but the more producers are able to hold their bulk until a more local producer needs some, the better things will get.
I know a single check looks good, but when you can make more by spreading it over a whole year just makes more sense (and more $). I'm just glad I can afford to wait and don't need the cash to pay debts right after the season because I borrow nothing to need to repay. The worst I have is on rare occasion I need to split a credit card and only pay a bill over 2 months, but 95% of the CC bills are paid in full each time. I also, have no other farm bills, even my home has no mortgage, my truck was bought cash, my tractor I paid cash and I realize in that respect I'm above the curve where most would not be able to do this.
My advise towards that means, is accelerate your debt payments, and force yourself to pay them first, starting with the highest interest rate one and working back towards the lowest one. Then as you finish paying one debt off, put that amount towards the next. Do not think of it as a time to celebrate until the last one is paid in full. Then celebrate by paying yourself in a savings or investment. This worked wonders for me, however to get there we lived a little close to the belt until we were set.

[BAP]

While a national campaign could help a lot, I see no advantage to bundling the syrup into one pool. It is well documented that each area produces a syrup taste unique to that region. I feel that is why I do so well selling all of my syrup at retail.
That was not always the case, in my early years I retailed it all, but then my production grew faster than my market, I then sold bulk for about 8 seasons. Then after 2015 I cut back and have only grown to meet my retail demand (from 1320 in 2015, to 725 in 2016 to 750 in 2017 and then 850 this season.
I far prefer keeping marketing on a local level, thus I think local co-op's could be helpful but not state wide or even worse, regional. I realize that some producers might not be able to market all they make for various reasons, but I feel most should try to market more. This might be a place for even without a formal co-op or other arrangement, the local producers in each are might well benefit from keeping a list of what syrup other local producers have on hand that might be for sale. That way, as one runs low, they could buy from a local producer. This way there could easily be a price arrived at somewhere in between what bulk buyers pay and what bulk sellers sell for, making it a win/win for both parties. That would also help keep the regional flavors protected.
I see part of the bulk price issue as being caused by too many needing their cash NOW , rather than waiting and I understand how that is, but the more producers are able to hold their bulk until a more local producer needs some, the better things will get.
I know a single check looks good, but when you can make more by spreading it over a whole year just makes more sense (and more $). I'm just glad I can afford to wait and don't need the cash to pay debts right after the season because I borrow nothing to need to repay. The worst I have is on rare occasion I need to split a credit card and only pay a bill over 2 months, but 95% of the CC bills are paid in full each time. I also, have no other farm bills, even my home has no mortgage, my truck was bought cash, my tractor I paid cash and I realize in that respect I'm above the curve where most would not be able to do this.
My advise towards that means, is accelerate your debt payments, and force yourself to pay them first, starting with the highest interest rate one and working back towards the lowest one. Then as you finish paying one debt off, put that amount towards the next. Do not think of it as a time to celebrate until the last one is paid in full. Then celebrate by paying yourself in a savings or investment. This worked wonders for me, however to get there we lived a little close to the belt until we were set.
Well said Dave. You are right on about regional flavors. Joining into one big group would make us a Cartel like Quebec. I think everyone wants more local control than that.

[DaveB]

Well said Dave. You are right on about regional flavors. Joining into one big group would make us a Cartel like Quebec. I think everyone wants more local control than that.

I agree but I don't think there is any reason why you couldn't have a campaign about maple syrup in general, particularly American syrup. 2/3's of the country doesn't know the difference between the fake stuff and the real stuff. Plus, they probably just think of Canada. I can't tell you the number of restaurants that will tell you that they serve "real" maple syrup only to find out that it is the fake stuff. I sell at a lot of markets across the country and there's a lot of education when you leave "maple country" but the sale is easy after that.

We could open up a lot of markets if there was a campaign simply about maple syrup in general. In particular, you bring up the regional flavors. I don't think many people know about that because outside of maple country they only get blended syrup (blends of different farms) and rarely from a single farm/region. If people knew that, I think it would be like wine where people would seek out different flavors which would lead to more sales in general. I think there's lots of ways that the market for syrup sales could be increased. We have the product, we just need the new markets and each of us alone can't do all that work!

[DrTimPerkins]

My advise towards that means, is accelerate your debt payments, and force yourself to pay them first, starting with the highest interest rate one and working back towards the lowest one. Then as you finish paying one debt off, put that amount towards the next. Do not think of it as a time to celebrate until the last one is paid in full. Then celebrate by paying yourself in a savings or investment. This worked wonders for me, however to get there we lived a little close to the belt until we were set.

Well that's just darn anti-American! :lol: JOKE JOKE JOKE

More seriously, I agree. My philosophy has always been, it's not how much you make, it's how much you spend, and more importantly, how much you save. The goal is to work hard now, retire comfortably (and early) later.

[Robert K]

Well I guess it’s my turn. Look I don’t make too much syrup, 20 gallon or so most years. However it really made me stop and think one day when a local kid said he had never had maple syrup. Since then I send 2-3 gallons to the local schools every year for breakfast programs or special pancake days. I just couldn’t get that kids voice outa my head, it just didn’t seem right. If we want to make a change let’s start one litre or gallon at a time. That’s my 2 cents.

[maple flats]

Well that's just darn anti-American! :lol: JOKE JOKE JOKE

More seriously, I agree. My philosophy has always been, it's not how much you make, it's how much you spend, and more importantly, how much you save. The goal is to work hard now, retire comfortably (and early) later.
Yea, I retired at 51 but after 2-3 weeks I got bored. I then started driving school bus and still had too much free time, so 4 years later I started making maple syrup. I drove for 19 years and finally retired at 69. I was then ready to retire, but I still do a little subbing driving bus, just not in maple season.

[DaveB]

Yea, I retired at 51 but after 2-3 weeks I got bored. I then started driving school bus and still had too much free time, so 4 years later I started making maple syrup. I drove for 19 years and finally retired at 69. I was then ready to retire, but I still do a little subbing driving bus, just not in maple season.

Couldn't you fit a tank in the back of the school bus? Just remove a few seats - I think it would make an excellent sap hauler! :lol:

[wdchuck]

but i think of the guys i know with 50k taps and thats alot of retailing......

Retailing for the small guy is no doubt part of the answer. However, be careful what you wish for! Once the bigger guy does the same thing, he can compete on price, and he will. Don't believe me? Look at those Craigslist ads for $35/gal syrup.

[markcasper]

Retailing for the small guy is no doubt part of the answer. However, be careful what you wish for! Once the bigger guy does the same thing, he can compete on price, and he will. Don't believe me? Look at those Craigslist ads for $35/gal syrup.

Wait.....we will soon see $25/gallon. Like you say, "race to the bottom."

[sapman]

Well I guess it’s my turn. Look I don’t make too much syrup, 20 gallon or so most years. However it really made me stop and think one day when a local kid said he had never had maple syrup. Since then I send 2-3 gallons to the local schools every year for breakfast programs or special pancake days. I just couldn’t get that kids voice outa my head, it just didn’t seem right. If we want to make a change let’s start one litre or gallon at a time. That’s my 2 cents.

I've been thinking the same way. Getting children the opportunity to have syrup seems like a huge deal to me. I'm planning to provide our church's summer camp in the Adirondacks with syrup for the summer. The director is very excited about it.

[Parker]

Woodchuck,,,i was talking about the smaller producer like most of us here...the big guys are not geared to retailing and establishing a market for 25k gal ,,,thats real tough work and very time consuming,,and really you have to be a very special person to pull that stunt off and maintain your shelf space.....(agine i have the highest respect for packers as they have worked very hard to get what they have,,read bruces book,,,the dude works nonstop and took and takes huge risks constantly risking all he has worked HARD for...a 15 million dollar line of credit does not come without real collateral)
Take the maple guild in island pond for example...with all their money,,with all the resourses availabel to them,,with going to food trade shows that are EXPENSIVE to attend how much of their crop have they been able to move? (Of course the way their syrup tastes might have something to do with it,,yes i have tasted it)...
My brother bought me a small nip bottel of syrup at the king arthour flour shop in vt...the syrup was fancy in color but literaly made me gag,,i suppose the packer thought it was a good way to geg rid of nasty late season shemegma...not a good market building idea...(dont know who packed it)
In reality its easier for a guy with 1000 gallons to sling his product retail than someone with 50 k taps.....imho.......and its eaiser to move product when it tastes good

That being said i do wish everyone the best of luck

[markcasper]

Woodchuck,,,i was talking about the smaller producer like most of us here...the big guys are not geared to retailing and establishing a market for 25k gal ,,,thats real tough work and very time consuming,,and really you have to be a very special person to pull that stunt off and maintain your shelf space.....(agine i have the highest respect for packers as they have worked very hard to get what they have,,read bruces book,,,the dude works nonstop and took and takes huge risks constantly risking all he has worked HARD for...a 15 million dollar line of credit does not come without real collateral)
Take the maple guild in island pond for example...with all their money,,with all the resourses availabel to them,,with going to food trade shows that are EXPENSIVE to attend how much of their crop have they been able to move? (Of course the way their syrup tastes might have something to do with it,,yes i have tasted it)...
My brother bought me a small nip bottel of syrup at the king arthour flour shop in vt...the syrup was fancy in color but literaly made me gag,,i suppose the packer thought it was a good way to geg rid of nasty late season shemegma...not a good market building idea...(dont know who packed it)
In reality its easier for a guy with 1000 gallons to sling his product retail than someone with 50 k taps.....imho.......and its eaiser to move product when it tastes good

That being said i do wish everyone the best of luck

It seems there is alot of yucky tasting syrup around which certainly won't grow the industry. We were at the Leader open house today and there was a bottle opened next to the coffee maker (apparently to put in coffee?) That syrup should not be on the table!!!!

[Greenwich Maple Man]

I believe the supply and demand right now is a huge problem. Big installs all over . That syrup has to be sold someplace. On the flip side marketing is I think a bigger problem. If you look at the geographical region of the world that syrup can be produced in we should all be running out. Education is going to be key. The industry is following suit to dairy and logging. Bigger better faster equipment and to much product. But I believe do to the small region of the world syrup can be produced in we may have some light at what seems like a long dark tunnel right now.

[Parker]

If you bottle your own syrup and it tastes gòod you have a real advantage over a large packer who blends lots of syrup together,,some good and some late season nasty when seĺling to customers where taste matters........plus you are going to have a better story to sell the syrup with as to where the syrup came from and how it was produced....therd are oppertunities in every market if you look for them
Which syrup would you rather buy :" we made this syrup from our small familey farm where we carfuly tend our 4000 taps and boil on a traditional wood fired evaporator, come on by and check the sugarhouse out sometime
Or
"We buy syrup from many producers and mix it all together and we have a low price"
The story you tell when you sell can make a differance

[Scm]

..........

[wdchuck]

Woodchuck,,,i was talking about the smaller producer like most of us here...the big guys are not geared to retailing and establishing a market for 25k gal ,,,thats real tough work and very time consuming,,and really you have to be a very special person to pull that stunt off and maintain your shelf space.....


Although we agree on most points, re-consider Crown Maple and The Maple Guild (Island Pond). The primary function of each is to not make money. They are both now in the mass distribution channels (I saw one of them in WalMart). In my opinion, its the mass distribution and sudden availability of maple at a low price that will keep prices low. I wholesale all of our syrup, 1000 gals+ every year, and the one trend I'm noticing is that there is hardly a spot on the map that cant get maple syrup from their distributor. Once the scarcity and uniqueness is gone, all we've got left to sell is our own individual story, and if we're all doing that and cant/won't compete on price, it'll be some tough sleddin! ....If you're up this way, look me up,....

[S.S.S]

It seems there is alot of yucky tasting syrup around which certainly won't grow the industry. We were at the Leader open house today and there was a bottle opened next to the coffee maker (apparently to put in coffee?) That syrup should not be on the table!!!!Mark I was there yesterday also and seen that syrup. Did you taste it?

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.

[markcasper]

Mark I was there yesterday also and seen that syrup. Did you taste it?

Yes we got there before 1. The first thing I did was take a spoon and sample that 1/2 pint. It made your mouth pucker thats for sure. I guess there was a reason it was obviously destined for coffee. Really though, syrup that taste like that should not be on anyones table! When Phil was making cream he was using his own syrup. Their syrup was top notch, very good tasting!

[S.S.S]

Yes we got there before 1. The first thing I did was take a spoon and sample that 1/2 pint. It made your mouth pucker thats for sure. I guess there was a reason it was obviously destined for coffee. Really though, syrup that taste like that should not be on anyones table! When Phil was making cream he was using his own syrup. Their syrup was top notch, very good tasting!I didn’t taste it I should of thou. Where you the guy with short hair and overalls on?

[markcasper]

I didn’t taste it I should of thou. Where you the guy with short hair and overalls on?

Yes I had bibs on. Were you the guy with the wife that was near the candy machine?

[spud]

Although we agree on most points, re-consider Crown Maple and The Maple Guild (Island Pond). The primary function of each is to not make money. They are both now in the mass distribution channels (I saw one of them in WalMart). In my opinion, its the mass distribution and sudden availability of maple at a low price that will keep prices low. I wholesale all of our syrup, 1000 gals+ every year, and the one trend I'm noticing is that there is hardly a spot on the map that cant get maple syrup from their distributor. Once the scarcity and uniqueness is gone, all we've got left to sell is our own individual story, and if we're all doing that and cant/won't compete on price, it'll be some tough sleddin! ....If you're up this way, look me up,....

Spot on my friend.

Spud

[S.S.S]

Yes I had bibs on. Were you the guy with the wife that was near the candy machine?Yep that was us

[Parker]

I agree with you guys that with more players in the market marketing will be more difficult,,,but,,,i woyld argue that there will be many who wont make the effort and if yoy have a better story and are reliabel (especialy if you have a unique product, angle and plenty of hustle) there is oppertunity....
As far as the bulk price,,,,its going way down,,,,imho......the packers only have so much money, storage, production ability, and, markets to supply

[GeneralStark]

It's the producers in Maine and Massachusetts that have the largest opportunity knocking on their door for diversifying into a new market....

[Scm]

..........

[minehart gap]

Now your thinking. But how do you infuse the two? Butters and oils have the fat that the molecule need to stick too. I don’t think it sticks to sugars.

Steam maybe?? I know that everything that I wear in the sugar shack while boiling is infused with maple smell, probably taste as well.:cool:

Nuts! The munchies need to be satisfied.

[markcasper]

I agree with you guys that with more players in the market marketing will be more difficult,,,but,,,i woyld argue that there will be many who wont make the effort and if yoy have a better story and are reliabel (especialy if you have a unique product, angle and plenty of hustle) there is oppertunity....
As far as the bulk price,,,,its going way down,,,,imho......the packers only have so much money, storage, production ability, and, markets to supply

It depends, when I was at the Leader open house I was talking with the older Gillian fella from Leader. He said he had a talk with Bascom and that he told him he can't lie to these producers, referring to the exchange rate. The exchange rate has narrowed substantially over the past year. He said that Bruce has quite a nice profit sitting there in terms of what the exchange was when he bought the syrup compared to what it is now, he mentioned a 2 million dollar profit just because of "buy low, sell high". He also told Bascom that he will be forced to pay up if the exchange rate keeps narrowing or he simply won't get the syrup. You can interpret it for what its worth, but this is what he told us.

I also became aware that Andersons is looking for syrup which is a good thing, running low. I was told by a key player that there is syrup out there, but people are sitting on it and won't let go. I think anything below $2 a pound will reach a barrier for many producers. Their going to start to ask themseleves, (including myself), why are we doing this? Not sure about you's out east, but Anderson has gotten to be a very large player in syrup packing. They have got to be in the top 10 in North America, if not more in terms of volume.

I also noted at the open house....very few people at the maple cream show, but hoards at the tubing installation seminar. So that simple observation tells where people want to spend their time, and could be intrepeted to tell you their is room for growth in value added. The problem is the time it takes to make and market it does not match or come close to a job in town.

[S.S.S]

Pete from Roth sugar bush was talking at maple institute in Wausau and was saying if there's so much syrup out there then why can't you get any when you call out east to buy some. He said they tell you don't have any available to sell.

[markcasper]

Pete from Roth sugar bush was talking at maple institute in Wausau and was saying if there's so much syrup out there then why can't you get any when you call out east to buy some. He said they tell you don't have any available to sell.
I am sure there could be some found....at the right price. When it jumps to $3/ pound, then I'll be a believer. Do you really think that ANY equipment salesman will want you to think there is a surplus?

[BAP]

Pete from Roth sugar bush was talking at maple institute in Wausau and was saying if there's so much syrup out there then why can't you get any when you call out east to buy some. He said they tell you don't have any available to sell.
I doubt that they can’t find Syrup to buy, I suspect they just don’t want to pay anything for it. There is a mountain of syrup in storage around here.

[DrTimPerkins]

..very few people at the maple cream show, but hoards at the tubing installation seminar.

That is our experience as well. We are asked frequently to talk on a wide range of subjects. Production talks we give are usually well attended. Others are rather hit and miss. Some we have been told are really important to the maple industry so we need to do education on the subject, and end up with 2-3 people. Although we do them, it is much more satisfying to have a room full.

[GeneralStark]

Now your thinking. But how do you infuse the two? Butters and oils have the fat that the molecule need to stick too. I don’t think it sticks to sugars.

I'm afraid that is a trade secret....;)

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.

[GeneralStark]

Some of the search terms I used to look at this subject online included THC, attach, molecule and sugar. The basic answer is that it does not readily bind with sugar. Fats and alcohol are the standard bearers. However, that never deters science when there is a profit motive.



Now, a little further research shows that this may not be the answer we are looking for. Seems that how TCH gets into the blood system attached to another molecule is very important. The gist is that sugar permeates the stomach walls in a different manner than fats or alcohol. That process can actually lead to the body dumping THC into a waste stream instead of making its way to the receptors that give you the altered state. That would mean that alcohol and fat are still a superior delivery method over sugar.

To date, sugar is added as a means to alter the flavour profile of the raw ingredient. Now, many producers are well into their exploration of bourbon flavoured syrup. Some, like me, have wondered aloud why age it in a barrel if the regulations allow us to sell product that could contain up to 2% alcohol; without having to get certified as a producer/distributer of alcohol. See where this is headed?

Soak source THC in bourbon. Titrate with maple syrup to just under 2%. Probably not going to get the urban hippy as a customer, but the urban hipster is a shoe in.

As I said...huge market here. As for combining THC with sugar, I would encourage you to take a trip to CO, WA, or OR to see the variety of products that are available that do just that.

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.

[Parker]

"Binders" are useful in this process.....l

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.

[Scm]

..........

[tcross]

THC can be infused into sugar... it's more difficult to do than other methods, but it can be done with good flavor. it would be tricky to do it with maple sugar and keep the maple flavor... but it probably can be done. the quick version... cook/dry out and grind up the weed, put it in alcohol, stir in the sugar, let it set for a while, strain out the weed, then let the water/booze evaporate leaving you with THC infused sugar... that's the gist of it.
Generally it has to attach to fats... butter or dairy products, oils etc... then that "fat" is used in the cooking process to infuse the THC fat into whatever your cooking. oil being the easiest way to mask the weed taste. with all the states starting to legalize... it could be something to try.

[tcross]

this bulk price thread is starting to take an odd turn in direction...

[S.S.S]

Talked to guy in Vermont that talked to Bruce bascom himself and Bruce told him the price will be same as last year.

[markcasper]

Talked to guy in Vermont that talked to Bruce bascom himself and Bruce told him the price will be same as last year.

I don't know, I think it really depends on the season this year. Mr. Bascom and Mr. Roth can say all they want, we could have a 2012 season and what would people say? Roth is a buyer to resell syrup, why would he be calling out east looking for tractor trailer loads?

[S.S.S]

I don't know, I think it really depends on the season this year. Mr. Bascom and Mr. Roth can say all they want, we could have a 2012 season and what would people say? Roth is a buyer to resell syrup, why would he be calling out east looking for tractor trailer loads?Roth buys syrup and sells to companies that manufacture food products that put maple syrup in there stuff.

[markcasper]

The Leader rep also told me that you'd be amazed of the number of tractor trailer loads of syrup that go from the midwest, to the northeast and back or vice versa that either are looking for a home, or don't have a home.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Talked to guy in Vermont that talked to Bruce bascom himself and Bruce told him the price will be same as last year.

Price is not the same as last year. Call Bascoms yourself. 603-835-6361

[markcasper]

Price is not the same as last year. Call Bascoms yourself. 603-835-6361

So is it currently higher or lower? Mostly, this time of the year, the price is stable until the upcoming season is finished.

[Scm]

..........

[markcasper]

Maybe maple producers SHOULD flood the market. Bring the price down to compete with the actual competition.... fake syrup.

Please bring me some popcorn!

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Price is not the same as last year. Call Bascoms yourself. 603-835-6361
He's alive! First post in.......maybe two years? I see you tried calling a few days ago. I'll catch up this week. Almost done tapping now so I'll have time.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I'm thinking its all based on SUPPLY and DEMAND. I will admit I come from a different perspective than most producers. If I was in it JUST for the money I would have quit long ago. I keep upgrading my equipment to meet industry standards and for my own satisfaction. I'm just a small drop in the bucket of this massive FUNGIBLE ocean of syrup. But every year I wake up in the spring with great enthusiasm hoping for a great season with all my upgrades in place. I make as much syrup that mother nature and my high performance upgrades will allow. I also hope I have a market for what I make and that it will lesson the burden on my investment.

Now ain't that a hoot I keep using the word investment. I made the mistake of pointing out to my wife that I INVESTED in new counter tops Stainless Steel appliances and a top of the line stove but her cooking hasn't improved one bit. Guy's did I say something wrong because she sure is acting funny.

[Scm]

..........

[PerryFamily]

Price is not the same as last year. Call Bascoms yourself. 603-835-6361

I did and that is what I was told from the horse himself. Maybe we are talking to different people.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Price is down a dime per pound across the board from what it ended up last year.

[Parker]

It wont stay there for long....try this for fun...tell them you have 75 bbls and see what the price is.....makes a difference if you have more than a couple of bbls.....but from what i hear its a great time to expand,,,add some tech.get more efficant and all that....ha ha

[Louie]

I like it when the equipment dealer says "buy your equipment from me and I will buy your syrup first". It works until he gets a new best friend.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I would think that would be counter productive for a dealer that is also a syrup wholesaler. Now if they only have room for only so much syrup then yea it would be a problem.

[220 maple]

Just the other day I watched a video on YouTube of a interview of a guy named Glenn Goodrich, he is over seeing a install in Eden, Vermont, 200 thousand taps by 2022, making 150 barrels of syrup a day when trees are running full tilt! IMHO that should go along ways toward solving the world wide shortage of maple syrup plus stabilize the price of BULK Syrup at the same time! Maybe he can retail every gallon at the local farmers market, of coarse he will make a half a gallon syrup per tap or be considered a failure by his fellow syrup makers. Just think 100000 gallons of syrup!

Mark 220 Maple

[Brian]

Those are his. He leased the land for 30 years. He will have 4 evaporators running at once when done. They got about 50,000 done in Eden for this year. that makes about 80,000 for him this year.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

He's alive! First post in.......maybe two years? I see you tried calling a few days ago. I'll catch up this week. Almost done tapping now so I'll have time.
he is alive, he is finally getting around to the HE injection.
talked to him yesterday, he sold 10 more gallons at 30 each. 7 dollars more a gallon than bulk price GO THAD GO! He said he doesn't care whose customers he steals as long as the money ends up in his pocket!

[earl dakers]

I have a 2x6 inferno with a 30 ft stack. its airtight with a fan and am getting way too much draft. any suggestions?

[BAP]

he is alive, he is finally getting around to the HE injection.
talked to him yesterday, he sold 10 more gallons at 30 each. 7 dollars more a gallon than bulk price GO THAD GO! He said he doesn't care whose customers he steals as long as the money ends up in his pocket!
And that is exactly why it is “The Great Race to The Bottom.”

[BAP]

I have a 2x6 inferno with a 30 ft stack. its airtight with a fan and am getting way too much draft. any suggestions?
You should post this in the evaporator forum and make your on post with your question and not steal a thread.

[Atgreene]

Yesterday I took a ride to a local dealer to pick up a few supplies. They have a store selling maple syrup and bakery items as part of their maple supply business. Amongst all the syrup was your typical array of maple whoopee pies, maple candies, maple confections etc..... Almost all the confections and home baked items contained artificial maple flavoring. How in heck are we supposed to expand our industry, promote an all natural product and promote real maple syrup if we don't use it in our own products?! It's hypocritical at best, deceitful at the least.

We run a small farm store selling beef, pork, eggs and homemade items. We refuse to sell anything that isn't "real" anything. My wife makes and sells maple salsa, whoopee pies, candy, cream, cookies etc...etc.... All of which is made with real syrup, no artificial.

The buying public isn't going to trust nor believe us that real maple syrup is best if we're selling products made with fake syrup. We cut our own throats by not walking the walk.

[Scm]

..........

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

he is alive, he is finally getting around to the HE injection.
talked to him yesterday, he sold 10 more gallons at 30 each. 7 dollars more a gallon than bulk price GO THAD GO! He said he doesn't care whose customers he steals as long as the money ends up in his pocket!
I talked to him the other day. He told me about the helium injection. I think hes on to something. Or maybe he's on something?! Haha.
Stop trying to get everyone riled up with the $30/ gallon thing. You like to start trouble. It's in your nature:lol:

[ScottP]

It wasn't that many years ago that bulk syrup was selling for far less money than it is today. We sure liked seeing it in the upper $2 a pound range but i can remember when it was in the low $1 to under that. I remember when I got $1.30 a pound and was happy and now $2 - $2.10 a pound and people are complaining.

[maple flats]

Part of the problem there is that the cost of making syrup has climbed so much faster than the price. Likely when you got $1.30 a pound the cost to make it was less than half what it is today. To be relatively equal we'd need to get $2.60 today.
I still believe retailing far more of your own syrup is the answer, and don't do that by cutting the price you sell it for to be below everyone else, that will not help anyone except the consumer who pays less than the cost to make the syrup. That's a recipe for bankruptcy.

[markcasper]

It wasn't that many years ago that bulk syrup was selling for far less money than it is today. We sure liked seeing it in the upper $2 a pound range but i can remember when it was in the low $1 to under that. I remember when I got $1.30 a pound and was happy and now $2 - $2.10 a pound and people are complaining.

$1.35 / lb. for light amber in 1990, unfiltered. I recall 1991 (below dark amber, good or bad taste was .50 / lb., unfiltered, the following year that grade was .60 / lb. Nothing was ever filtered, they scraped the sediment out of the milkcans, wanted it all! Now its a .30/lb dockage. Figuring this in, the price we are getting is way worse now when taking inflation into account. Year 1996 had LA-$1.50, MA-$1.40, DA-1.30, below DA-$1.10 all per lb, all unfiltered prices. I have the slips to prove.

Figuring amber rich, MA current price at $1.70 / lb. unfiltered, that has only been an anemic .30/lb increase in 22 years.

[hand drill]

Part of the problem there is that the cost of making syrup has climbed so much faster than the price. Likely when you got $1.30 a pound the cost to make it was less than half what it is today. To be relatively equal we'd need to get $2.60 today.
I still believe retailing far more of your own syrup is the answer, and don't do that by cutting the price you sell it for to be below everyone else, that will not help anyone except the consumer who pays less than the cost to make the syrup. That's a recipe for bankruptcy.

you make syrup for the bulk price weather you like it or not. selling syrup is something else, you do not need to make syrup to retail it in jugs.

[spud]

you make syrup for the bulk price weather you like it or not. selling syrup is something else, you do not need to make syrup to retail it in jugs.

Very Very True. Something I think many people just do not understand. Maple Flats I would have to disagree with your (recipe for bankruptcy) comment. If a person sells his syrup for bulk price and makes 4000 Gallons per season he makes (around) $2.10LB for a total of $92,400. If he sells his syrup for $30.00 a gallon even after the jug cost of $2.10 he still makes $4.80 more per gallon. 4000x4.80= $19,200. I would say that making that extra $19,200 will save him from getting into bankruptcy.

The real reason people don't like seeing someone lower their prices is because they don't want to lose sales of their own. smaller operations spend way more money per tap to get set up. If they don't get their $40-70 per gallon they could be filling for bankruptcy. The big operations will always have and always will have the upper hand on the little guys. The little guys selling syrup make up about 1-2% of the overall syrup sales worldwide. the syrup prices have already dropped to $9.99 a quart in places like Cosco. If the packers see those sales going up then they could drop the price we see in our grocery stores. Right now we are seeing $17.99-$22.00 a quart. As soon as we start seeing syrup sell for $9.99 a quart in the grocery store the little guy will be forced out of the sugaring business. I would hate to see this happen but things like this happen in farming and all businesses every year. So the guy selling for $30.00 a gallon just gave himself a raise. That raise could be giving him and his family a vacation to Hawaii or maybe pay for college. He may be hurting the guy trying to sell for $45 but he is not doing anything wrong. In my eyes he is doing everything right ( for his family ).

Spud

[markcasper]

Very Very True. Something I think many people just do not understand. Maple Flats I would have to disagree with your (recipe for bankruptcy) comment. If a person sells his syrup for bulk price and makes 4000 Gallons per season he makes (around) $2.10LB for a total of $92,400. If he sells his syrup for $30.00 a gallon even after the jug cost of $2.10 he still makes $4.80 more per gallon. 4000x4.80= $19,200. I would say that making that extra $19,200 will save him from getting into bankruptcy.

The real reason people don't like seeing someone lower their prices is because they don't want to lose sales of their own. smaller operations spend way more money per tap to get set up. If they don't get their $40-70 per gallon they could be filling for bankruptcy. The big operations will always have and always will have the upper hand on the little guys. The little guys selling syrup make up about 1-2% of the overall syrup sales worldwide. the syrup prices have already dropped to $9.99 a quart in places like Cosco. If the packers see those sales going up then they could drop the price we see in our grocery stores. Right now we are seeing $17.99-$22.00 a quart. As soon as we start seeing syrup sell for $9.99 a quart in the grocery store the little guy will be forced out of the sugaring business. I would hate to see this happen but things like this happen in farming and all businesses every year. So the guy selling for $30.00 a gallon just gave himself a raise. That raise could be giving him and his family a vacation to Hawaii or maybe pay for college. He may be hurting the guy trying to sell for $45 but he is not doing anything wrong. In my eyes he is doing everything right ( for his family ).

Spud

Well said spud! Price is ultimately the biggest factor in whether your going to sell syrup or not and how much. If you have a quality syrup and a low price, that is even better. In the end, an added benefit to lower prices should be increased demand and sales. What continues to baffle me is the number of people that have gotten into the business the past 10-15 years. It just astounds me! Its hard work, you work with and in rough weather frequently, the inspection requirements are escalating upwards every year, trying to keep a full time job and sugar is beyond not easy! I don't get it? Maybe these lower bulk prices will start thinning the herd?

[southfork]

Although no producer likes margin erosion, it is important to remember the main competition for consumer wallet is not simply other maple products, it is the cheaper sweetener alternatives. That has been the case since the sugarcane boom. Lower maple syrup shelf prices will help sell product against cheaper, and readily available alternatives.

[markcasper]

Although no producer likes margin erosion, it is important to remember the main competition for consumer wallet is not simply other maple products, it is the cheaper sweetener alternatives. In the pure maple world your producer neighbor(s) down the road trying to sell to the same target audience IS your immediate competition! In a broad scope, yes the competition is cheaper sweetener alternatives. Since the prices of maple will realistically never get as low as alternatives, its unfair to assume this into every equation.

[southfork]

I agree, there are microcosms of competition, that is true in any niche. I was referring to those mentioning Walmart and Costco as their reference.

[Scm]

..........

[southfork]

Like I said, for right or wrong, the consumer has plenty of cheaper alternatives to use as a sweetener. Sugarcane is a mighty business, Belglade, Florida is alive and well, was there last month. The maple industry has it's work cut out for it. It is always difficult to market against alternatives, especially when they are offered much cheaper, and by companies able to penetrate large markets.

I am in no way saying this is good for maple, in fact it is bad. But, the realities remain that there are sweetener alternatives to maple which are cheaper and more readily available........... and that is our main obstacle to market penetration.

[Atgreene]

Anyone who is buying their syrup at Cosco or Walmart is not my customer. The folks that buy our syrup also buy our eggs, beef, salsa, pork, honey, etc. We don't compete on price, we compete on quality and local.

[lew]

Just a thought. Why would some one add on 200,000 taps with a 30 year lease if they didn't think they could move it at a profit. Obviously there are economies of scale working with those numbers. But, no market is guaranteed, especially for 30 years.

[spud]

Anyone who is buying their syrup at Cosco or Walmart is not my customer. The folks that buy our syrup also buy our eggs, beef, salsa, pork, honey, etc. We don't compete on price, we compete on quality and local.

If the price drops to $9.99 a quart in ALL the local stores then even your customers ( might ) make the switch. That is if your charging more then the $9.99. There will always be some loyal customers that will buy your syrup no matter the price difference. But that kind of market only makes up about 1% of the overall maple sales worldwide.

Spud

[Parker]

Well you might have always had a dream of having 200000 taps.(some folks get off on building massive things)...if sugaring has been your lifes work,,you have the oppertunity to build an opperation where that many taps come into the sugarhouse without trucking,,and you have a customer lined up to buy you syrup......and with strong interest from people with money to get into the sugaring game you might think that once built you could sell the opperation....i can think of many reasons

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

recipe for bankruptcy.

The sugar maker(s) who went out on a very small limb with debt of 250K to start sugar operations when bulk was 2.80 and now bulk is 2.10 LB. You still have those payments to make.
PM me for fire sale of equipment please before you give back to bank.
Thank You
Flatlander

[doocat]

I’m with you flat but from what I can gather the people putting up those huge places don’t mind the loss and use it for a tax write off. We (the smaller producer) would have to sell everything we own to cover the loss.

[maple maniac65]

The sugar maker(s) who went out on a very small limb with debt of 250K to start sugar operations when bulk was 2.80 and now bulk is 2.10 LB. You still have those payments to make.
PM me for fire sale of equipment please before you give back to bank.
Thank You
Flatlander

I will sell you all my maple equipment for 250k. The fire sale is on. Remember I notified you first.

[Louie]

With the low bulk prices you might see a boost in production to try and make up for the lower price. If some don't go out of business the price is going much lower.

[n8hutch]

I will sell you all my maple equipment for 250k. The fire sale is on. Remember I notified you first.

I think this thread is getting kinda off topic and I admit it is humorous. I have noticed that I do think a few people are Hanging it up this year and selling out. Is it above average I can't say but there has been a fair amount of newer stuff out there for sale where it appears people are raising the white flag . I doubt it will have any effect on the bulk price but it is a trend perhaps?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

looking for a good 600 expandable to 1200 H2O or CDL for around 4K, 2.5X8 vortec with revolution pans and steam away for 3.5K.
will pay cash.

I did not say I would pay 250K, i was saying the people who went in 250K plus are going to be hurting, looking for fire sale

[wiam]

looking for a good 600 expandable to 1200 H2O or CDL for around 4K, 2.5X8 vortec with revolution pans and steam away for 3.5K.
will pay cash.

I did not say I would pay 250K, i was saying the people who went in 250K plus are going to be hurting, looking for fire sale

If you find two of those RO’s please call me. Thad has my number if you need it. :lol:

[GeneralStark]

A word from our sponsor: https://www.themaplenews.com/story/syrup-demand-continues-at-an-all-time-high/188/

[WestfordSugarworks]

https://www.themaplenews.com/story/season-update-5-midwest-awakens;-zero-carryover-of-syrup-from-last-year/197/

Check this out.

“I don’t have a barrel in the house,” said Peter Roth of Roth Sugar Bush in Cadott, Wisc. on Monday. Roth is one of the biggest syrup buyers in the state and was trying to dispel the notion that there is a glut of carryover syrup on the market from last season.

“The supply of syrup in the Midwest is non-existent,” Roth said. “I don’t see the surplus that everybody talks about.”

Roth told The Maple News that he came up short on filling some contracts last fall because he could not source enough syrup.

“I couldn’t fill all of my contracts from last year,” he said on Monday. “I could’ve sold more.”

“I challenge anyone to put together a trailerload of syrup,” he said. “It cant be done. It just isn’t out there.”



Uh.. anyone know what they're paying out there? I know sugarmakers who would definitely move their syrup out there if they could get a better price for it. Or the sugarmakers who can't get in with bulk buyers around here. I just don't get it. You would think if he can't fill contracts he would be able to pay a bit better and get the syrup to fill contracts. Or maybe just unwilling to pay a higher rate to get those contracts because the margins aren't there. I don't know.

[Louie]

Now is a good time to invest in new equipment. Later the talk will be about the glut of syrup and why the price is so low.

[Parker]

Just went to Roths web site...they are a CDL dealer.....i left him my contact info and i will call him later....this should be fun.......

[upsmapleman]

maybe he doesn't pay and that is why no one will sell syrup.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

We sold Roth syrup back in 2008.....the transaction went smooth.
Neil

[Mark]

As of yesterday they did not have any prices set yet for this year so not buying yet. The truck drivers are the ones that really know what is going on and who is buying. Some of the syrup out of here is shipped to the east and the packers are buying from the east and it comes right back.

[Louie]

What a picture, I will leave it at that.

[maplenutter butter]

I buy syrup from Roths and they have been nothing short of amazing to work with. I bought 3 barrels from them in November and at that time I counted less then 75 barrels. I expanded my operation this year and hope to not buy any or very little this year. Everyone seems to be crying about the bulk price being low but I'm sitting here selling everything and then some at full retail cost. Lots of opportunity to sell at full retail cost if your willing to put the effort in.....

[S.S.S]

maybe he doesn't pay and that is why no one will sell syrup.Sold them many barrels over last 4 years and checks always cashed!

[S.S.S]

At there open house he was saying that he was having hard time finding syrup. But on other hand also said price was probably gonna go down! I didn't pay any attention to what he had sitting there for syrup. He also never reached out to any of his customers to see if had more syrup they would like to sell him.

[Louie]

They are very well connected and been in the business a very long time. If they wanted syrup bad enough they would get it from the NE, local syrup is cheap.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Roth has been my best friend/supplier/buyer I have never gone out to dinner with them or exchanged baby pictures with them. They would be fools to sell equipment to someone and as you go out the door they say I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU WILL SELL YOUR SYRUP. They have taken every call and always answered every question I had. I grew and they grew things went up and things went down.

Look what has happened to the transportation industry mainly Cab and limo's Do you think the major cab company's are happy with Lift and Uber no but in a way they caused some of the growth of these company's. This is life quit blaming the big guy and get better or get out but quit with the sky is falling and finding someone else to blame.

[Ontario Ian]

There is a lot of friction on the Quebec quota, however many don't know that it caps producers as well, they can only ship the quota they have ( in some cases of people i know about half of production) so with out that hold, Quebec could produce as much as they want (like the rest of us) and that would bring bulk prices to an all time low possibly never seen before

[Clinkis]

So tell me if my math is correct as I’ve never sold bulk before. There is approximately 11lbs in a gallon of syrup. So at $2/lbs you get $22/gallon?

[Haynes Forest Products]

YES about $1250.00 per drum depending on weight.

[doocat]

Anyone know the going rate for dark robust?

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Anyone know the going rate for dark robust?
less than 2 a gallon

[blissville maples]

Av- 2.00. Dv- 1.90. Vv- 1.75

[WestfordSugarworks]

So tell me if my math is correct as I’ve never sold bulk before. There is approximately 11lbs in a gallon of syrup. So at $2/lbs you get $22/gallon?

11.3 pounds per gallon if you are going to 66.9 brix (VT standard)

[markcasper]

Just went to Roths web site...they are a CDL dealer.....i left him my contact info and i will call him later....this should be fun.......

So how did it go??

[southfork]

I have never bought or sold syrup to Roth Maple Supplies in Wisconsin, but I will say their customer service and support is excellent. Both Jim Adamski and Kellen O'Donnell have been very responsive in meeting our long distance CDL equipment needs and questions.

Race Foster, in Michigan

[Parker]

I left a voice mail and an e mail..pete returned my call But i missed that,,got his cell number,,have left 3 voice mails on his cell phone,,no return call....im guessing they are pretty busy,,,,but,,,they dont seem desperate for syrup......
I will keep trying
Im not saying that they are not great folks,,i have no idea......i am saying the statement that there is not an oversupply of syrup is false.....

Im looking forward to speaking to the man....

[Parker]

Funny,,,still no return phone call from mister roth.....seem like if the wanted syrup they would respond????
Just trying to hype the market, sell supplies and blow smoke i think
Mr roth if you want bulk syrup i can put you together a couple loads right off if you want to pay the rate......your challange has been answered....your response??
Agine my cell number is 603 491 0082,,,,,,,,

[DaveB]

Have there been any changes to the bulk price for dark syrup? This thread has gotten hard to find that and I went back several pages and couldn't find a price. Is it still around $2? I'm looking to buy some from a producer and I want to give a fair deal before he sells it to a packer.

[lmathews]

Bascom via phone last week stated
$1.90 for dark robust.
$1.75 extra dark strong.
$.90-$1.10 off,ropy,non filtered.
Hope this helps.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Dark currently at $1.90

[Haynes Forest Products]

Parker I think its a little more complicated than just simply posting to a forum taunting a man about how and why he runs his business a certain way. I see you buy syrup what is your price your willing to pay TODAY for bulk. Now I will give you this disclaimer I buy all my supplies from Roth because I believe that having a good relationship with your buyer and supplier is a good decision on my part. I also don't and have ever felt that I had to sell my syrup to them at their price. I own my drums and can play the market as I see fit.

I also know that right now the season is really bad in the north west part of the state and there is a big bottler up there so everyone is playing the wait and see game. Now maybe Pete will give you a call buy your syrup at $2.00 a pound and have someone in Vermont come pick it up and he will resell for $2.60 per pound and make a nice tidy $375.00 a drum for your sweat and labor.

I would also bet Pete doesn't come on this or any other forum.

[BAP]

Big article on the front page of the April issue of The Maple News quoting Peter Roth as saying there is no surplus, no supply of maple syrup. Read the article. Said he couldn’t fill his contracts because he couldn’t find any syrup to buy.
https://www.themaplenews.com/story/season-update-5-midwest-awakens;-zero-carryover-of-syrup-from-last-year/197/

[GeneralStark]

Big article on the front page of the April issue of The Maple News quoting Peter Roth as saying there is no surplus, no supply of maple syrup. Read the article. Said he couldn’t fill his contracts because he couldn’t find any syrup to buy.
https://www.themaplenews.com/story/season-update-5-midwest-awakens;-zero-carryover-of-syrup-from-last-year/197/

The article states there was no carryover syrup from 2017 in his warehouse. It also says this: "Roth who has a 16,000-tap operation of his own was collecting sap for the first time on Monday and expecting to make the first new barrels of the season to fill his warehouse."

It doesn't say anywhere in the article that Roth is looking for syrup to buy...

I took it as, unlike Bascom's and other buyers/packers that claim they have carryover supply from 2017, Roth does not.

[Parker]

I read the artical on line earlier,,,,im not taunting anyone...he challenged anyone to find him loads,,,i can.and i would be happy to connect buyers with sellers..if you want to pay a fair price
I was able to speak with Mr. Roth this morning, nice guy to talk to..he might have difficulty finding syrup in the northeast with what he is willing to pay and his barrel policy. (Mabey you can get a better deal than what i was offered,,b
Dont know)
But as the crop is totaled things might change..time will tell



And im really happy with who i sell my syrup to.

[Louie]

Roth is a big buyer. It would be like saying Bascom is going to fill his warehouse with the syrup he makes.

[Mark]

There are only a couple big bulk buyers over here that I know of, not much for competition.

[billyinvt]

For a while now those who have been around the business side of this have been saying that maple SUGAR is the future and that the market for it will be Asia and Europe first. I guess that's why we see big guys going in for 200k plus taps.

[BAP]

The article states there was no carryover syrup from 2017 in his warehouse. It also says this: "Roth who has a 16,000-tap operation of his own was collecting sap for the first time on Monday and expecting to make the first new barrels of the season to fill his warehouse."

It doesn't say anywhere in the article that Roth is looking for syrup to buy...

I took it as, unlike Bascom's and other buyers/packers that claim they have carryover supply from 2017, Roth does not.
Did read the part where he challenged people to put together a trailer load of Syrup because it couldn’t be done? That’s not true if you need the syrup bad enough because there is a lot in storage by people hoping that the price will go up.

[GeneralStark]

Did read the part where he challenged people to put together a trailer load of Syrup because it couldn’t be done? That’s not true if you need the syrup bad enough because there is a lot in storage by people hoping that the price will go up.

The article is about the Midwest.... “The supply of syrup in the Midwest is non-existent,” Roth said. “I don’t see the surplus that everybody talks about.”

I took the whole article as referring to the season in the Midwest, which is where I assume Roth primarily purchases syrup from. I also took it as Wisconsin and the Midwest are having a late season so the supply of syrup is limited, hence the challenge of putting together a load of syrup...

[Louie]

From the Maple News April page 31 "Roth went as far as to say the U.S. market was completely dry, even in the Northeast. In the U.S. there is no surplus."

[GeneralStark]

From the Maple News April page 31 "Roth went as far as to say the U.S. market was completely dry, even in the Northeast. In the U.S. there is no surplus."

I'm not sure if you're referring to the article BAP shared or a different Maple News article.... If he does think there is no available syrup in the northeast, he is crazy...

[Mark]

I just checked the Maple News that came today and that is what it said.

[bobbyjake]

for quite some time, it has been clear that the bulk prices are controlled by a select group of people, including the Federation of Quebec Maple Syrup Producers, (FQMSP for short) aka: Fédération des producteurs acéricoles du Québec, FPAQ. Obviously, controlling 60+% of the syrup in the world has its perks, but a handful south of the border as well. To explore this thoroughly, one would have to be willing to go down the rabbit hole and discuss certain quality control and regulatory elements that are missing north of the border, but alas - another post for sure.

I would have to grow more hands (and feet) to count the number of times that a certain NH packer proclaimed that the prices would be depressed - only those may not always be the exact words used...you do have to be able to read between the lines....Surplus, banner year, stable... All code for: we are not raising the price.

While I would be disingenuous to not acknowledge that the FQMSP has absolutely contributed to the stabilization of global syrup marketing/prices and assisted to level the price through good years and bad, but similarly to the current Canadian Dairy scene, where USA farmers are going out of business and Canadian ones are "thriving", there is a cost to releasing the control to a few.

The surest way to raise the bulk prices, is for every producer that runs right to the packers in April to offload their "surplus" to not do so. Not only would this immediately trigger a supply and demand cycle, but it would disallow the packers the luxury of gauging the total available production and would raise prices.

Off my soapbox.

[maple flats]

bobbyjake, well said.
Sell at retail and make the money yourself is my plan. I'm glad I'm not in the position that I can't hold my syrup and retail it all. Those who put them selves in the position that the need the lump sum check ASAP contribute to the low bulk prices and I agree, many bulk buyers may spread the surplus supply thought to keep prices low(er).
I can recall, the first year I ever sold bulk syrup was in 2008, that year it was a seller's market. I negotiated with Bruce Bascom and got $3.00/lb regardless of grade. Even after that I saw the benefit of selling retail and expanded my retail efforts. I now retail every drop and even buy some bulk to meet my needs. I only sell bulk if I make any Commercial grade.
Do not contact me to buy more, I have already made all of my purchases or made my commitment to buy, besides, my scale is still only a drop in the bucket compared to what you larger producers are making.
The large producers will do well to put effort into retail, either yourself or an employee, either part time or full time depending on the amount you need to move at retail.

[Atgreene]

We just shipped a pallet of quarts and pints to Wyoming for my brother to sell. We're having a record year so we've opted to find more markets. We've never bulk wholesaled, never will. We will add another 3-500 taps next year if this works out. We keep expanding our retail market opportunities, I'll be ****ed if I'm giving it away.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Selling retail in small mom and pop stores is a whole different animal. Selling to your local 2 to 3 store operation is fine as long as you keep him fed with syrup. Now go down to the larger retailer grocery store that has a buyer and see how they operate. Now approach the multi state grocery and fork over $25,000.00 just to keep your product.......then miss a delivery and see what happens. Its a whole different roller coaster your riding.

I bulk mine because I don't have the time or desire to sell it that way. I have a real job that pays the bills and in a good year without big mistakes I do well.

[maple flats]

I sell all of mine retail and I only have 1 retail outlet I use, most of mine is thru my website, the rest is from my house or the sugarhouse. While I no longer have 1300+ taps, but I sold it all retail then too, but had 1 more retail outlet. My current outlet sends me an email when I need to restock, otherwise I just go in once a month to collect my check and restock. The beauty of that one is that my space only costs $8.50 a month and no percentage of sales. While the slowest 4 months look very poor, the other 8 more than make up for it. Last Nov and Dec. I got an email for more bourbon barrel aged syrup weekly and I put 48 out each time minus the 2 or 3 that were left from my last filling. That was filling my space for the BB syrup, I also had a facing or 2 of about 10-12 other syrup containers.
Until I retired June 17, 2016 I also had a day job, plus a blueberry farm to work, and re-stocking the shelves never got old. Still have that for now.

[blissville maples]

Holy smokes first time in 6 years the price went up .10 for the top three grades at bascoms.....they may just have saved me from going somewhere else because I feel they tend to grade darker than what's in front of them contributing to .10 less per lb.........

[spud]

yea organic went up .10 also. The funny thing is the packers have to wait for Canada to be about done before they can set the price for VERMONT ORGANIC. You know the whole pricing thing is a scam.

Spud

[lew]

Spud, are you saying organic premium is now .20 instead of .10?

[Haynes Forest Products]

You can not have a rational discussion if all you do is spout crazy talk. I will agree I say some goofy things but to throw mud against the wall doesn't show much intelligence. Show me some facts to back up what you say and Ill listen.

[spud]

Spud, are you saying organic premium is now .20 instead of .10?

No I'm saying the price went up .10 from last season on organic. It appear the price went up the same .10 for non organic also. Vermont packers should not need to wait till Canada is done their season to set the organic price of VERMONT organic. Vermont organic or any states organic should be priced differently. In my opinion the price of organic should be .50 above non organic. Much paperwork and aggravation goes into being organic. We are inspected from top to bottom in order to be organic and there are fees to pay for this cirtificate. Most non organic operations are not inspected here in Vermont. I'm not saying organic is a better syrup I'm just saying that it's a safer choice because their operations meet all health/safety standards. As of now almost anyone can sell bulk non organic syrup to a packer without having any inspections to their operations. Most non organic syrup is of top quality made with pride. I think it's safe to say some nasty makes it to the packers. That nasty May look and taste ok but the operation that made it could be less then par.

Spud

[markcasper]

Most non organic operations are not inspected here in Vermont. I'm not saying organic is a better syrup I'm just saying that it's a safer choice because their operations meet all health/safety standards. As of now almost anyone can sell bulk non organic syrup to a packer without having any inspections to their operations. Most non organic syrup is of top quality made with pride. I think it's safe to say some nasty makes it to the packers. That nasty May look and taste ok but the operation that made it could be less then par.

Spud

This is what I have always said, could never figure out how Vermont could build such a image and not have to be inspected?? We must be inspected to sell to a packer in Wisconsin. I think its just a matter of time and vermont will have to toe the line as well. We vacationed in Vermont in 2003 and fully one half of the sugarhouses were dives IMO. Sure changed the way I viewed things from there on out.

[DaveB]

No I'm saying the price went up .10 from last season on organic. It appear the price went up the same .10 for non organic also. Vermont packers should not need to wait till Canada is done their season to set the organic price of VERMONT organic. Vermont organic or any states organic should be priced differently. In my opinion the price of organic should be .50 above non organic. Much paperwork and aggravation goes into being organic. We are inspected from top to bottom in order to be organic and there are fees to pay for this cirtificate. Most non organic operations are not inspected here in Vermont. I'm not saying organic is a better syrup I'm just saying that it's a safer choice because their operations meet all health/safety standards. As of now almost anyone can sell bulk non organic syrup to a packer without having any inspections to their operations. Most non organic syrup is of top quality made with pride. I think it's safe to say some nasty makes it to the packers. That nasty May look and taste ok but the operation that made it could be less then par.

Spud

I can't speak to your other points of being organic as it would deviate from the topic but a premium does not exist to reimburse someone for their extra paperwork. The premium exists because there is a market for organic syrup. It's all about supply and demand. If there was a shortage of organic syrup, the price would go up. There seems to be a fair balance between what is needed and what is being supplied so packers give the slight premium so that level continues. If they needed more and couldn't find it, the price would go up to encourage producers to go through the certification process so there would be more on the market.

I think the reason that you have to wait until the Quebec season ends to set the Vermont organic price is that they produce 70% of the maple syrup. I think the market has a certain need for organic syrup and if Vermont had a bad season and Quebec had a good season, packers would just use the Quebec organic because consumers are shopping based on price for the most part.

[Russell Lampron]

Holy smokes first time in 6 years the price went up .10 for the top three grades at bascoms.....they may just have saved me from going somewhere else because I feel they tend to grade darker than what's in front of them contributing to .10 less per lb.........

I've had it go both ways at Bascoms, it depends on who they have looking into the Lovibond.

One time I brought in all Golden and Amber syrup because that is all that I make and it was all graded Amber or Dark. The guy had the nerve to say that it didn't have much flavor. I tasted the jug that he said didn't have much flavor and he was wrong, it had an excellent Amber flavor. I looked at my slip and found that he had graded it as Dark and it wasn't even close. When I questioned him about it he said that if I didn't like it I could sell it somewhere else. If I thought it was dark I would have kept it to sell to my customers.

The last two times that I brought syrup in it went the other way. The time before last I brought in a mix of Golden and Amber and it was graded as such with more of it being graded as Golden than what I had brought in. The last time that I brought syrup in which was about a month ago all of it graded Amber except for one 5 gallon jug which was right on 75% with my Hanna grader. The guy that did the testing must have looked at that one first. He graded it as Golden and then went through the rest of my twelve 5 gallon jugs using just the turkey baster and not the Lovibond and graded it all as Golden.

Bascom's always goes by the price that Canada sets and gives us the lowest price that they can going by the dollar exchange rate. Bruce has told me that he won't pay US producers more than what he can buy syrup from Canada for.

It's good that the price went up a little and it could go up again in the fall. Bruce says that he has enough syrup on hand to last until October.

[n8hutch]

At our Local Hannaford you can buy quarts of Organic Syrup in the Organic foods section cheaper than some of the non Organic syrup in the syrup/cereal isle. So I Don't see the price of Organic going up too much until people stop selling syrup to these big stores for 9-10 dollars per qt.

I think Being Organic gives you a slight edge as far as being able to move your Syrup in a Market that is Saturated but over all i think it's not worth the Aggravation.

[spud]

At our Local Hannaford you can buy quarts of Organic Syrup in the Organic foods section cheaper than some of the non Organic syrup in the syrup/cereal isle. So I Don't see the price of Organic going up too much until people stop selling syrup to these big stores for 9-10 dollars per qt.

I think Being Organic gives you a slight edge as far as being able to move your Syrup in a Market that is Saturated but over all i think it's not worth the Aggravation.

With 1000 taps it might not be worth going organic as you say. Organic does pay $2.20 more per gallon of syrup. For those who have a lot of taps it does pay off. For me it gives me $5-8000 more per season. Organic can be sold as non organic if needed. Non organic cannot be sold as organic. Going organic is something that every sugar maker has to decide for themselves.

Spud

[n8hutch]

I can see where it makes sense for Bulk producers to be Organic .bulk producers need ever cent they can get I suppose, and since this is a thread on Bulk prices I guess it makes sense if you can get 10% more for your syrup.

For me in my area I feel like I would be spending say 5% more to produce the syrup to make the same Margin on the Retail end, only place I may gain would be with the very very few that would perceive that there is a difference between Maple Syrup produced "Organically" and maple Syrup that is not certified Organic.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

This is what I have always said, could never figure out how Vermont could build such a image and not have to be inspected?? We must be inspected to sell to a packer in Wisconsin. I think its just a matter of time and vermont will have to toe the line as well. We vacationed in Vermont in 2003 and fully one half of the sugarhouses were dives IMO. Sure changed the way I viewed things from there on out.

I know what you are saying, I feel inspection are coming.

[spud]

I can't speak to your other points of being organic as it would deviate from the topic but a premium does not exist to reimburse someone for their extra paperwork. The premium exists because there is a market for organic syrup. It's all about supply and demand. If there was a shortage of organic syrup, the price would go up. There seems to be a fair balance between what is needed and what is being supplied so packers give the slight premium so that level continues. If they needed more and couldn't find it, the price would go up to encourage producers to go through the certification process so there would be more on the market.

I think the reason that you have to wait until the Quebec season ends to set the Vermont organic price is that they produce 70% of the maple syrup. I think the market has a certain need for organic syrup and if Vermont had a bad season and Quebec had a good season, packers would just use the Quebec organic because consumers are shopping based on price for the most part.

I would have to somewhat disagree on your first point. If a Vermonter wants to be Organic there is not only paperwork to do but also they have to pay a fee and comply with the Organic standards. We also have to pass yearly inspections. My point was the Vermonters that do not sell organic do not have to comply with much of any standards. They can run a filthy operation and answer to nobody. If they want to sell to a packer all they have to do is bring their syrup in stainless barrels. If they want to sell their syrup at a flee market or in a store they still do not need to be inspected. A person could make their syrup in a lead soldered turkey fryer and cook hotdogs in the sap while boiling it and then bottle it up and sell it at the flee market. Their evaporator could run on Nuclear Power and still it's ok to sell in stores. There are some stores that would require inspections to take place but thats up to them. In VERMONT organic syrup is the safest syrup to buy. Most non Organic producers make a quality syrup but how can the consumer be sure? The answer is they cannot. This is why I feel the Organic price should be a minimum of .50 more per pound. On your second point I do understand supply and demand. Although the packer said they have to wait on the Canada season to be over to set the Vermont Organic price. The Canada season has nothing to do with Vermont Organic. If there was a surplus of Vermont Organic then I could see the packer say they would have to wait to see how the VERMONT ORGANIC season goes before setting the price on Vermont organic syrup. As of now the packers feel just giving .21 cents more a pound is good enough.

Spud

[DaveB]

Although the packer said they have to wait on the Canada season to be over to set the Vermont Organic price. The Canada season has nothing to do with Vermont Organic. If there was a surplus of Vermont Organic then I could see the packer say they would have to wait to see how the VERMONT ORGANIC season goes before setting the price on Vermont organic syrup. As of now the packers feel just giving .21 cents more a pound is good enough.

Spud

I respectfully disagree that the Vermont organic market has nothing to do with Canadian season. The two are connected because if the Vermont organic price is high, the packers just won't buy it because they have a ready source of other organic syrup to replace it.

Let's say Vermont sets it's organic syrup price at $3/lb. Then the Canadian season ends and they set their price at $2/lb. The packer could buy the Vermont syrup but then needs to offer it to his customer at the higher price. The customer has a choice - do I buy the higher priced Vermont organic or this other syrup that is also organic? The consumer is mostly going to buy based on price and buy the Canadian organic syrup.

Now, there is a segment of the market that is going to say I want Vermont organic syrup but depending on how big that is, you might have unsold product. Unsold product is worthless because there is no willing buying so the price comes down. Where they settle is premium.

Unfortunately, the packer can't set the premium until he know what the entire market is and since Canada produces 70% of the syrup, they have to wait until that price is set and adjust accordingly.

[spud]

Thanks DaveB. That does make sense to me now. In your state does non organic producers need to be inspected before selling to a packer? Wondering about other states also.

Spud

[DaveB]

Thanks DaveB. That does make sense to me now. In your state does non organic producers need to be inspected before selling to a packer? Wondering about other states also.

Spud

There are inspections for being organic but Connecticut does not require inspections of maple syrup producers.

My understanding is that if you do sell syrup to a packer that you have to be registered with the FDA and that by registering you open yourself up to inspection.

[markcasper]

If there was a surplus of Vermont Organic then I could see the packer say they would have to wait to see how the VERMONT ORGANIC season goes before setting the price on Vermont organic syrup. As of now the packers feel just giving .21 cents more a pound is good enough.

Spud

So help me understand.....Vermont has their own "organic" syrup classification? I thought the new grading system was meant to standardize everyone, and do away with individuality if you will? What is stopping a Vermont packer from covering their needs with less expensive Canada organic and still call it vermont? Sounds like what Wisco. does with cheese, as long as 30% of the product is from Wisco. the rest can be from wherever, whenever and still be labeled "Wisconsin" cheese. What a scam!!

We have had to be inspected to sell to a packer for at least 8 years now, maybe 10! We have always needed to be inspected (besides bulk), for any sales other than sales direct to the consumer (i.e., farm stand, farmers market, craft show, etc....). Wisconsin I believe is the strictest of any state or province as far as inspections are concerned. I have noticed many Wisco producers using it in their advertising, unlike Vermonters who are unable to b/c there is no standard for inspections there.

[markcasper]

There are inspections for being organic but Connecticut does not require inspections of maple syrup producers.

My understanding is that if you do sell syrup to a packer that you have to be registered with the FDA and that by registering you open yourself up to inspection.

If your state does not require and carry out inspections (the state is the ones carrying out the FDA inspections in most cases), then the odds of you getting inspected are next to nil! I cannot believe the states that do not require inspections of maple operations??!

[BAP]

Well, us New Englander's don't need the government holding our hands for everything we do like the rest of the country wants. They don't call us "****ed Yankees" nothing. I come from the "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of all Evils" state.

[DrTimPerkins]

So help me understand.....Vermont has their own "organic" syrup classification?

No, but Vermont NOFA is one of the primary certifying agencies in the area, so does the lion's share of the ORGANIC certification. There is currently no national level certification for organic maple syrup, but there are basic guidelines. You may find small variations in the rules from one certifier to another, but in general they are all quite similar.


I thought the new grading system was meant to standardize everyone, and do away with individuality if you will?

It does on many aspects of maple syrup grading....light transmission, density, clarity, grade names.


What is stopping a Vermont packer from covering their needs with less expensive Canada organic and still call it vermont?

That is against Vermont Maple Law. Only syrup made in Vermont from sap originating in Vermont can qualify as "Vermont" Maple Syrup.


We have had to be inspected to sell to a packer for at least 8 years now, maybe 10! We have always needed to be inspected (besides bulk), for any sales other than sales direct to the consumer (i.e., farm stand, farmers market, craft show, etc....). Wisconsin I believe is the strictest of any state or province as far as inspections are concerned. I have noticed many Wisco producers using it in their advertising, unlike Vermonters who are unable to b/c there is no standard for inspections there.

While there is no formal inspection program in Vermont, there are several other things. Until a few years ago there was a random shelf-inspection of maple syrup for quality. VT Agr employees could pull stock from store shelves to open and test, and pull it off sale if it didn't meet the quality control criteria. Currently there is only a "by complaint" inspection. There is a voluntary VMSMA Sugarhouse Certification Program (UVM PMRC was the very first sugarhouse inspected and certified). In addition, since many sugarmakers here are bulk producers, if you have a relationship with a packer, they will pop by at some point during the season and visit. While this is seemingly just a courtesy visit, it is also intended to have them look over your operation and see that it complies with good practices and lead reduction requirements.

[Tmeeeh]

In New Hampshire The Dept. of Ag requests that all sugar makers register with the state. This is not required. Inspections by the state happen if you voluntarily enroll in the NH Seal of Quality program. The rules are here start reading at the bottom of page 5. https://www.agriculture.nh.gov/publications-forms/documents/seal-of-quality-rules.pdf.

The US National Organic Program (NOP) allows certified producers to use the USDA Certified Organic Seal. NOP does not do the inspections or issue certificates. The NOP allows certain entities to do the inspections and issue certificates. In NH the department of agriculture markets and food does the inspections. The NOP has minimum requirements for a producer to be certified. The NOP also allows the inspecting entity to add requirements above and beyond the NOP minimum requirements.

IN NH we are only required to meet the NOP minimum. I understand NOFA in VT and MOFGA in Maine are the certifying entities and that they do add additional requirements.

We are inspected for organic and again for the seal of quality.

We have a specialty store in Denmark that is buying our certified organic syrup. Denmark in part of the European Union. The EU is very strict about importing organic products from outside the EU. A electronically generated certificate of inspection from a certifying entity must accompany the shipment. The only acceptable electronic certificate is one generated by the EU agency TRACES NT. In addition Denmark requires additional paperwork and inspections from the store in Denmark if the product is organic. It is easy to import non organic un-inspected syrup into the EU!

[bobbyjake]

[QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;356814]That is against Vermont Maple Law. Only syrup made in Vermont from sap originating in Vermont can qualify as "Vermont" Maple Syrup.


Is this true or a "recent" change? Years ago, the sap could be non-Vermont as long as the syrup was made in Vermont to Vermont density and graded according to Vermont grade standards. The current definitions of "Product of Vermont" does not indicate the sap has to originate in/from Vermont either.

[DrTimPerkins]

Is this true or a "recent" change? Years ago, the sap could be non-Vermont as long as the syrup was made in Vermont to Vermont density and graded according to Vermont grade standards. The current definitions of "Product of Vermont" does not indicate the sap has to originate in/from Vermont either.

I believe it has been that way for quite some time. Unless I am mistake (which is possible), the only exception is sap from trees outside Vermont if a sugarbush is contiguous with (border) the state and some of the trees are on pipeline crosses the border. I don't think you can truck in sap (or you definitely can't truck in concentrate or syrup) from outside and process/pack it here and make it "Vermont" syrup, although some people have that common misconception.

[PCFarms]

I heard that Quebec made 110m pounds of syrup this year, compared to last year when they made 152m pounds and 148m lbs in 2016. Sales by the federation were about 118m pounds last year and 101m in 2016 - they should start to use up some of the reserve this year, keeping bulk prices stable. There will still be a lot in reserve though...

[DrTimPerkins]

There will still be a lot in reserve though...

The interesting question is...how much of that reserve is table-grade syrup (not commercial, buddy, damaged, etc.). Given the growth in syrup sales over the past 5 yrs, the level of "good" reserves could take quite a hit. Production during the 2019 season could become very important.

There is no question that 2018 is definitely going to prove the incredible importance of the Quebec strategic reserve in maintaining stable prices. As much as producers would like to see prices go up...I can tell you from experience, a spike in prices is far worse than low bulk prices for most people. Large-scale ingredient markets demand stable prices. If prices shoot up, those uses are reformulated to other sugars and they take maple syrup out, meaning that markets dry up, followed by a drop in bulk prices. Everybody loses in that scenario.

[markcasper]

I can tell you from experience, a spike in prices is far worse than low bulk prices for most people. Large-scale ingredient markets demand stable prices. If prices shoot up, those uses are reformulated to other sugars and they take maple syrup out, meaning that markets dry up, followed by a drop in bulk prices. Everybody loses in that scenario.

Very much truth to that, but the packers made out pretty well the past 3-4 years by acquiring syrup much cheaper and not dropping their prices accordingly.

[Haynes Forest Products]

What do you think the tipping point is. I'm thinking around $2.20-40 per lbs for grade A wholesale

[DrTimPerkins]

Very much truth to that, but the packers made out pretty well the past 3-4 years by acquiring syrup much cheaper and not dropping their prices accordingly.

It is hard to say precisely, because packers aren't marketing the syrup directly in many cases. They sell to wholesalers and retailers, so any margin is split between those parties. What I hear from packers is that the retailers (especially the big markets like Costco and Walmart) are squeezing them to lower their prices, but the stores are not dropping the retail price. So while having big reserves (in Quebec) is probably good for ingredient markets to keep prices stable, having an oversupply that retailers can see acts to drop the wholesale price they will pay to packers.

Then again, we have the U.S. $ to Canadian $ that still factors into it as well. It's all a bit murky at those levels....and the packers are obviously reluctant to discuss it because they don't want other packers to know their prices or customers.

[markcasper]

It is hard to say precisely, because packers aren't marketing the syrup directly in many cases. They sell to wholesalers and retailers, so any margin is split between those parties. What I hear from packers is that the retailers (especially the big markets like Costco and Walmart) are squeezing them to lower their prices, but the stores are not dropping the retail price. So while having big reserves (in Quebec) is probably good for ingredient markets to keep prices stable, having an oversupply that retailers can see acts to drop the wholesale price they will pay to packers.

Then again, we have the U.S. $ to Canadian $ that still factors into it as well. It's all a bit murky at those levels....and the packers are obviously reluctant to discuss it because they don't want other packers to know their prices or customers.

Yes, after I wrote the previous......it dawned on me about what the big box stores are doing behind the scenes. With that being said, there was another post earlier in the year about the exchange rate and its relation to prices. At least a few months ago, most on here were at the consensus that US syrup should be worth $2.30 - $2.40 /lb. based solely on the exchange rate, NOT $2.00 /lb. for grade A.

[mellondome]

When I sold my first bulk syrup i got 3.20/lb for it. Just like any other ag segment, going down while the cost of everything else climbs.

So what do the packers and big box stores do when the exchange rate goes the other way and price goes back over $3?

[Haggard]

Keep in mind, there are tariff movements between the US and Canada now. Looks like there is going to be a proposed 10% tax on maple syrup/maple sugar imported from Canada (https://www.fin.gc.ca/activty/consult/cacsap-cmpcaa-eng.asp, table 2) -- provided it is not just posturing, this could push estimates up for U.S. bulk sales prices. I'm crossing my fingers, but I am hoping this holds for the next couple of years before getting straightened out.

[DrTimPerkins]

I believe that tariff on maple syrup is for U.S. syrup imported INTO Canada, not the other way around.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thank you for the clarification I know it a tit for tat issue that wont really work but get people thinking.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

then lets tariff them 40%, we don't need their syrup A.

[Louie]

then lets tariff them 40%, we don't need their syrup A.

Why not 50% and then have a special team that grades the syrup.

[OneLegJohn]

I believe that tariff on maple syrup is for U.S. syrup imported INTO Canada, not the other way around.

Is the tariff for bulk and/or packed syrup?