Initial membrane rinse

[Windy Acres]

So we are going to be using our RO for the first time this weekend, I'm wondering what we rinse the membrane with for the first time not having permeate

[GeneralStark]

What water do you have access to? Many claim that spring water is the best to use to rinse the ro. Many, including myself, use well water because that is what we have available. If using well water and it is mineral heavy it is a good idea to use some type of filter. I use an RV water filter to remove as much iron as possible from my hard water...

I know some that use the first sap run to rinse with as well and then make permeate with the sap...

[Windy Acres]

How much would you say it takes to rinse the membrane before you would start saving concentrate?

[VT_K9]

We used our well water because it was good. I think I ran about 250-300 gallons through our 250 gph RO. Most will probably recommend running atleast the capacity of your RO. More rinse is a good thing from what I am told.

Mike

[JoeJ]

I was told by a membrane expert that you should rinse each 8" membranes with 600 gallons of water with low hardness and a low amount of iron and manganese. He told me "DO NOT RINSE WITH SAP!!" He said that if you rinse with sap, you will foul your membranes before you even get to use them. I tested the water in my deep well at my sugar house and at my house 3 miles away. The sugar house water was quite hard and had a lot of iron in it (of course) but my water at home is both low hardness and low in iron and manganese content. So I just haul 1,400 gallons (I have 2- 8" membranes) of my house water to the sugar house and rinse with that good water.

Joe

[sugarsand]

We rinsed ours in the fall with permeate that we saved. Our ro has 2- 8 incn membranes that were flushed with about 350 gal permeate, would that be enough, or should we run some well water thru still?

[JoeJ]

Sugarsand,

No offense ment here, but, why were you rinsing the membranes in the fall? If you only rinsed with 350 gal, that was not enough, IMO.

Did you have the membranes washed at Maple dealer or did you put preservative in the membranes?

Joe

[KReinisch]

I was told two things on rinsing RO before you fire up. One person told me just use 300 gallons of well water. The other told me to use my back up membranes and purify well water first and then rinse with that water. BTW... i have a lapierre turbo 250 and this will be the first year running it.

[GeneralStark]

How much would you say it takes to rinse the membrane before you would start saving concentrate?

That depends upon the machine and size and # of membranes. Some use the rule of half the capacity of the machine so if it is a 600 GPH machine, 300 gal. is adequate. I'm personally of the mindset that more is better when it some to rinsing pre-season.... I also run a wash cycle and then rinse again as this is what is recommended for my machine.

Do you have a manual for your machine as it should specify the pre-season rinse and wash procedure that should be used. If it is a new machine, it should still be rinsed and washed...

To clarify, I don't recommend using sap to rinse, but was merely stating that some do this...

[Russell Lampron]

I have a 125 RO and fill one of my 275 gallon permeate tanks with well water for the initial rinse. I also use a new pre filter to catch anything larger than 5 microns.

[markcasper]

You should not run hard well water through membrane, whether the dealer tells you its ok or not. You should run close to the number of gallons per hour through your machine to get the preservative out. I keep a tank of permeate over every year just for this purpose.
I will run it through at startup, then start concentrating and run both permeate and concentrate on the ground for a few minutes to clear the lines.

I also have an old membrane I can use on the first batch to make permeate, but then you have to doink around and switch membranes when there is 75 other things that need your attention. You can run hard water, but your membrane s days are numbered if you do.....maybe you could find somebody with water softner, or get some permeate from a neighboring farmer.

[Windy Acres]

ok thank you, ill try to find someone with a water softener, and ill check our well water for hardness

[Waynehere]

So I just bought a 250 Deere Run last spring after the season, used. I pulled the membranes, which was supposed to be soaking in the preservative, and put them in pvc containers, along with the preservative, for the summer since I can't 'heat the RO room all winter. I just put them back in and found them with some spoilage, like them were not rinsed very well at the end of the season last spring. I rinsed, soaped and rinsed again with the recommended amount of water. Is the spoilage normal when pulling them out of storage like that? They also had an offensive smell too. I have not pulled them back out of their vessels after all the washing and rinsing. Should I take a look/smell again?

[Haynes Forest Products]

I start every year with my CDL600 by rinsing with 275 gallons of soft water. Like Casper I then concentrate down the drain for a few minuets. I also have 1000 gallon permeate storage and Im always rinsing between uses. I also wash it every day after I concentrate.

End of year I do a soap clean and then into the storage vessel with preservative and off to be cleaned Buy Roth my dealer for a good cleaning. My membrane is 6-7 years old and I get a report back saying its running like new.

My RO is the heart of my operation and without it I would quit making syrup. Spending $225.00 at the end of every year to keep it happy (plus they store it for me) is the best investment you could make.

[neil2fish]

we're going to be putting a homebuilt 200 into service for the first time. When I unwrap my new membranes and put them in the vessel for the first time do they need to be rinsed right away and how much? we have softened well water at the sugarhouse...

[Windy Acres]

Yes they need to be rinsed with however much the manufacturer recommends, then leave the vessels full of rinse water until you concentrate, they must always be kept wet and not allowed to freeze

[GeneralStark]

With new membranes it is also a good idea to wash after rinsing and then rinse again with new membranes. There is a sulfur based preservative used in the membrane that if not removed through washing will end up in your syrup.

[GeneralStark]

So I just bought a 250 Deere Run last spring after the season, used. I pulled the membranes, which was supposed to be soaking in the preservative, and put them in pvc containers, along with the preservative, for the summer since I can't 'heat the RO room all winter. I just put them back in and found them with some spoilage, like them were not rinsed very well at the end of the season last spring. I rinsed, soaped and rinsed again with the recommended amount of water. Is the spoilage normal when pulling them out of storage like that? They also had an offensive smell too. I have not pulled them back out of their vessels after all the washing and rinsing. Should I take a look/smell again?

The sulfur based preservative used in membranes has an offensive smell. Kind of like rotten eggs or septic. It is possible that this is what you were noticing. You should be fine by rinsing then washing and rinsing again before concentrating sap.

[maple flats]

I rinse with city water. Since it's chlorinated I fill 2 totes of 275 gal each and wait 3 days for the chlorine to evaporate. Then I run it thru my 250 GPH RO using about 400 gal of that. The rest is used to clean tanks.
I've only had my membranes professionally cleaned once, after I'd used the RO 3 seasons. The report came back as 100%. I'll send them in again after this season, which will be 3 seasons of use since I sent them in last time.
Because the first time I sent them in for cleaning came back with a good report, I felt that my methods were good.
At the end of each RO session I run a 5 minute cold permeate flush, pushing sugar into the head tank. Then I run 15-20 minutes hot permeate wash (no soap). When doing that as soon as the wash tank temp starts to fall because the hot is pushing cold from the membranes back into the wash tank, I turn the permeate component of the flush and send it thru my tankless hot water heater, until the temp gets back to 110-112F but not over 115F. and all thru that reheating the hot water wash is continuing. (The manual said 10 minutes, I like extra). Then I follow that with a cold rinse using permeate for 7-10 minutes (the manual says 5 minutes).
I only do a soap wash 2 or 3x during the season, but I always do a very long one after the season , a 400-500 gal permeate rinse (mine is a 250 GPH). Then I do an acid wash. Let it set 2-3 weeks, then another full sequence soap wash, rinse and finally a preservative rinse. After the preservative is in the membranes, I drain the wash tank and rinse that using a hose and hot water, drain and let it dry.
My feeling and practice has said that if the instructions that came with the RO say to do one part for X minutes, I'll do it for 1x5-2X minutes.
Just remember too, to change the prefilter after every step that the instructions tell you to, or you will contaminate the membranes with some gunk still in the pre-filter from the previous step. That is why I keep lots of pre-filters in stock. Buy them in bulk, they are far cheaper that way.
For those on well water, try to find someone on city water that does NOT come from a well and let it set at least 3 days. Membranes do not like chlorine.

[Waynehere]

The sulfur based preservative used in membranes has an offensive smell. Kind of like rotten eggs or septic. It is possible that this is what you were noticing. You should be fine by rinsing then washing and rinsing again before concentrating sap.

Well, there also some gunk in there as well. Rotten sap I am pretty sure. What does the acid rinse do? I was thinking I would wash them again, acid rinse, then rinse again.

[bowhunter]

The acid cleaning removes primarily mineral deposits. Caustic or soap is for organic fouling. It sounds like it needs a soap or caustic wash, but first I would rinse with warm water (113F max) until most of this material is dissolved. As others have stated make sure you use water that does not contain chlorine since it will damage the membrane. If the membrane smells like rotten eggs it may be the preservative which will flush out easily with clean water. Fermented sap smells like vinegar unless it has already started to spoil.

The best way to test the membrane performance is using permeate at about 100 psi. After cleaning you can run the system to generate enough permeate to do a performance test. Since performance is very sensitive to temperature the permeate should be between 60-75 F. My membrane has been through two seasons and I just tested it last week on permeate. I cleaned it thoroughly with lye(caustic) at the end of the season and stored it in preservative solution. My membrane flowed 860 gallons per day of permeate (850 gallons per day rated capacity) at 100 psi and 60 F which is about 5% better than the rated performance. If the membrane performs at 80% or less after cleaning it may be damaged.

[Waynehere]

The acid cleaning removes primarily mineral deposits. Caustic or soap is for organic fouling. It sounds like it needs a soap or caustic wash, but first I would rinse with warm water (113F max) until most of this material is dissolved. As others have stated make sure you use water that does not contain chlorine since it will damage the membrane. If the membrane smells like rotten eggs it may be the preservative which will flush out easily with clean water. Fermented sap smells like vinegar unless it has already started to spoil.

The best way to test the membrane performance is using permeate at about 100 psi. After cleaning you can run the system to generate enough permeate to do a performance test. Since performance is very sensitive to temperature the permeate should be between 60-75 F. My membrane has been through two seasons and I just tested it last week on permeate. I cleaned it thoroughly with lye(caustic) at the end of the season and stored it in preservative solution. My membrane flowed 860 gallons per day of permeate (850 gallons per day rated capacity) at 100 psi and 60 F which is about 5% better than the rated performance. If the membrane performs at 80% or less after cleaning it may be damaged.

Thanks. I was getting my rated flow rate, about 270 gph. I was more worried about the spoiled sap leaving a taste. I will check it out tonight and see if there is any smell left after my wash and rinses.

[marylandlinemaple]

What do you all think about rinsing with rainwater? this is my first year with an RO, and I’m on city water with no well. Thinking about rigging up a rainbarrell. should get plenty of water when the six inches of snow on the tin garage roof melts.

[Waynehere]

Just pulled the membranes out and no smell. There is still some gunk at the far ends of the membranes that get the last of the flow, so I flipped them end for end and will rinse with warm water, wash and rinse again. Thanks guys for all of your advice...

Sorry, I guess I hijacked this thread. :(

[maple flats]

What do you all think about rinsing with rainwater? this is my first year with an RO, and I’m on city water with no well. Thinking about rigging up a rainbarrell. should get plenty of water when the six inches of snow on the tin garage roof melts.It would likely be OK but dirt and debris on the roof and in the gutters might really tax the pre-filter. Also, bird droppings and other undesirables.

[Shaun]

Putting my membrane in this weekend I ruined a couple o rings. If taking the membrane in and out you may want to have a few extra around. I figured this out the hard way... not related to water but a real snag when time is limited.

[SeanD]

I have the same issue with only having hard water on tap at the start of the season. So, I used this RV water filter with a food-grade hose.
https://www.thriftyapplianceparts.com/wsrv-8-inline-rv-water-filter/

The rest of the conversation and background are in this thread:
http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?29032-Water-to-Flush-RO&highlight=ro+water+filter