Mes 4”

[neil2fish]

Is anybody currently running MES 4” membranes? Are you able to get 50% permeate with 40 degree sap and if so at what pressure?

Thanks

[Greg MacWilliam]

Ran 2 of these last year, Each processed 100 gal per hr giving 25 gal of 8 percent. ran around 250 psi and would run 5 hrs before needing to be cleaned. I am very pleased with their performance

[nymapleguy607]

I have 3 4" MES membranes in my machine, at 250psi I was getting 150gph of permeate through the 3 membranes.

[neil2fish]

Jeff, what is your wash routine? Ive got a homebuilt with two in parallel feeding a third in series. If I can get 50% reject at each stage Ill be very pleased. A full run for us will be 800 gals of sap and i plan to wash after every run I got sodium hydroxide soap from MES and i don't know if its buffered or not.

[nymapleguy607]

I start with a rinse for about 5 minutes to get the remaining sugar from the membranes, I then take a 5 gallon bucket and mix 1/2 permeate and 1/2 hot water from my steamaway. This is just to get the temp up. Then I will add the soap until I get a ph of 11 then I will start the RO washing. I will usually top off my wash bucket with hot water and then recheck PH and adjust if needed. I have a bucket heater from TSC that I plug in and then let the wash cycle go until the RO shuts down on its own. The next morning I start the rinse cycle and rinse with about 275 gallons of water.

[bowhunter]

I would caution everyone during the cleaning cycle to keep the temperature of the wash or rinse below 113F. This is generally the maximum temperature limit posted by most membrane manufacturers.

[neil2fish]

Do I understand correctly that the wash water will warm on its own to exceed 113F if allowed to? I
was planning on using a temperature switch in my wash tank wired into the control loop of my VFD to shut down the machine when it hits 112. How warm should I start with?

[Bricklayer]

I don't think all pumps will warm the wash water. Multi stage pumps definitely do.
I start my wash water around 105 in the wash tank. Then cycle it through the RO for a couple minutes. The cold permeate that's in the machine will cool the wash water down. A couple degrees.
I let the wash cycle run till it hits 114 then RO shuts off automatically. 1 degree above max temp. My reason behind that is it's washing at the max temp
Usually takes around 40 minutes to an hour of cycling wash ( soap or acid) to get to temp and shut off

[nymapleguy607]

Do I understand correctly that the wash water will warm on its own to exceed 113F if allowed to? I
was planning on using a temperature switch in my wash tank wired into the control loop of my VFD to shut down the machine when it hits 112. How warm should I start with?

The amount of warming is something that is pump dependent. Like Bricklayer said, multistage pumps will heat the wash water as it runs. A procon pump does very little to heat the water, that is why I use a bucket heater. Using this method still lets the RO wash for at least 1 hour. If your going to go this route make sure you have a high temp cut off built into the system.

[neil2fish]

I do have a multi stage pump and I am installing a Ranco programmable high temp cut off in my wash tank. Thanks fellas.

[Bricklayer]

I installed the probe for the high temp shutoff in the line from my feed pump to my prefilter. Since the controller has a digital display it's nice to see the temp of the sap running through the RO also.
I had to get a 3/16 compression fitting to fit the probe in. Not a common size. Had to order it at plumbing supply store.

[Clinkis]

Bricklayer, you mentioned in another post that you had problems getting your pressure down during your wash/rinse with needle valve wide open. Did you find this to be an issue and was your washing and rinsing still effective? Just built a new RO with 2 mes membranes in series and having similar problem. Can’t get pressure below 60-70 psi. My old RO could get it down to pretty much 0. Considering installing a bypass after membranes to bypass controls and hopefully create less back pressure.

[Bricklayer]

I increased the size of all my lines and went with full 1/2" ID lines. Originally my RO had 3/8 ID lines so it made a difference. I also changed my membrane feed line to 3/4" from the hp pump to the membrane. If you have your membranes is series then changing your feed to the first membrane to 3/4 will allow more flow. You could change them all to 3/4 if you want. Won't hurt anything.
I took a lot of my 90 degree fittings out also and made it for free flowing. Less restriction.
Even taking one out will make a difference.

[Clinkis]

My HP pump is a Procon with 1/2 ports and only about 6” from membrane inlet so don’t think I can convert it to 3/4 but think I can change a lot of the rest to 3/4. This RO was originally used for commercial water purification. I’ve heavily modified it to work with sap and still trying to utilize a lot of the original controls and flowmeters. Unfortunately there is a lot of twists and turns to make this happen. As mentioned I may also install a bypass valve right at my membrane output for flushing and washing.

[Bricklayer]

60-70 psi is not bad for a wash cycle. That's basically what I have mine down to. I wouldn't worry too much about that pressure. Is that with your procon running or just your feed pump?
With your recirc valve closed what flow rating are your getting?

[Clinkis]

with HP pump running I get around 6 GPM total flow. 1 GPM of which is permeate flow. That is with reject valve wide open and recirc valve closed.

[Bricklayer]

That's pretty good for washing. I wouldn't be worried about that. When your doing a soap or acid wash you can open up the recirc valve to reduce pressure. But when your rinsing it's best to leave it closed. Then your not pushing dirty water back through membranes.
If you wanted to do a bypass it would have to be straight from the feed pump. So a tee or Y at the feed pump with a valve then a 3/4" line directly to the membrane. Best case scenario your membrane has a 3/4 threaded hole for the inlet on the concentrate in side. Some canisters do some don't.
I've thought of doing this but I like to keep things simple. And adding valves and such to an already complex array of tubing and valves seems like a recipe for disaster for me.
I think that the deer run RO's have a bypass valve plumbed in them. He might have it plumbed in easier then my idea. Maybe someone can post a picture of the deer run bypass.

[maple flats]

I don't have a picture, but the Deer Run bypass on mine is a smaller needle valve just before the main needle valve abs it channels some flow directly back to the high pressure pump inlet via a 1/4" bypass hose. I don't know if this is still how he builds them, my RO is serial #35. However it works good. Anytime you adjust the bypass in use, the main needle valve needs to be adjusted to keep the pressure you want.
When I wash I turn the main needle valve to the point where both flow meters are roughly equal. As the membranes get cleaner the main needle valve needs adjusting a few times.

[Bricklayer]

So it is basically a recirc line?
Does it direct the flow from the concentrate side or the feed inlet to the first membrane?
I know if I open my concentrate recirc valve it drops the pressure.