So why not boil/clean/sterilize adapters and reuse them?

[Woodsrover]

So all my tubing is on 3/16" and I've been using seasonal spouts and replacing them each year. Considering switching to Leader stub spouts and Leader clear check valve adapters.

As I understand it the stubs stay attached to the tubing each year and the adapters are removed and discarded. At $.42 a piece its not a cheap proposition, especially when the seasonal spouts are only $.18 a piece.

So why can't these $.42 check valve adapters be cleaned and reused? A little soap and hot water and I don't see why the bacteria can't be killed and/or removed.

What am I missing?

[psparr]

The microbes on the spouts can’t be removed even by boiling, and it has been shown that the additional sap yield from a new tap outweighs the savings from reuse.

[82cabby]

I have heard the same thing, but just by word of mouth. Does anyone have a link to a study? I have tried both cleaning and replacing my tubing taps. Its hard to tell from season to season if it makes a difference. I don't replace the metal taps i use for buckets so cleaning those must work....

[Woodsrover]

The microbes on the spouts can’t be removed even by boiling....

I just find that hard to believe.


....I don't replace the metal taps i use for buckets so cleaning those must work.

This too. I soak mine in a little soapy hot water and call it good.

I can really see the benefit of using these two-piece spouts and adapters for a cost-saving point of view and for not having to press new spiles onto the dropper every season, but at $.42 a piece replacing the adapters will add up pretty quickly.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

You can't see microbes but they are there. Perhaps someone has a link to PMRC studies that were done. If cleaning works for you then do it. There are always new technologies being pushed by suppliers and while they may work you need to decide if it works for you. I haven't bought into this check valve setup myself. Connect the cv to the cv2 to the stubby.....blah blah blah. At 250 taps save some money and replace your spouts every year at half the price and your drops every 3-4 years. My $0.02.

[buckeye gold]

Sanitizing is more difficult than what most people think. I dealt with it a lot in my career as a Fish Hatchery Manager and i can tell you it is a task. Bacteria can hide in so many ways. As far as just boiling taps in water, I think may be one of the least efficient sanitation attempts. First some effort needs to be made to clean and remove that sugar the bugs like. Then your water needs a little help, use something to acidify (vinegar) or a sanitizing agent. The next problem is drying thoroughly, inside and out. Dry heat is far better than air drying. Perhaps a tray under a heat lamp with some air moving over them. Still you aren't sure all your heat has heated into all the pores of the plastic, yes plastic is porous. We used to power clean all tanks and use Quaternary ammonia compounds then dry all our tanks. It was a hard job. As for equipment it was soaked in quats and if possible heat dried.

I'm perfectly fine with spending a few bucks on new taps that have never been exposed to sugar and bacteria. Taps are the cheapest piece of equipment we buy, yet I see a lot people gripe about spending a few bucks.

I'll tell you a story that relates my feelings. Myself and a couple buddies went on an out of state hunting trip and when we got out in the field one hunter misjudged the distance on a big gobbler and only wounded him. My buddy was all over him when he saw he had bought cheap shells, and made this point. Buddy, you just spent $1,000.00 to take this trip and defeated the goal of it to save $10.00 on a box of shells, do you realize how little sense that makes. Why wouldn't you protect your investment on success and spend $10.00 more for the best chance to succeed?

Here's a link to an article on food sanitizing: https://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/food-technology/food-processing-entrepreneurs/microbiology-of-food/

[tbear]

There was a good thread on this a few years back. If I remember right, the bacteria leaves a "footprint" that makes it easier for new bacteria to grow on. Sanitizing kills the bacteria but does not remove the "footprint" so the bacteria growth the second year occurs at a faster pace. Scrubbing, without scratching, will remove the "footprint". Scrubbing the inside of a spout is tedious and time consuming. If the scrubbing results in even minut scratches, the scratches give the bacteria a new place to grow that is even harder to clean (scrub) thoroughly. That's as far as my memory will take me. Ted

[maple flats]

There are studies on both PMRC in VT. and by Steve Childs, of Cornell showing that sap yield increase far out weighs the cost of new spouts. If you want to clean them, use SS spouts, or other metal spouts, they can be cleaned if done properly.
Why would you reuse a 42 cent spout so you could lose $2-3 or more worth of syrup. Penny wise and pound foolish.

[82cabby]

Found this study which is related: http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/How%20often%20should%20you%20replace%20droplines.p df

Good info. Im going to have to go through that site much more carefully. Thanks maple flats for the reference!

[Woodsrover]

Okay, okay, I get it....Don't try to clean adapters....It can't be done.

So if this bacteria is so tenacious that it can't be killed with boiling water, one has to assume its still present in our finished syrup product.....

:rolleyes:

[Moser's Maple]

Here's another good read.
https://blogs.cornell.edu/cornellmaple/files/2016/06/2014-15-Maple-Tubing-Research-Report-2cp3xos.docx

Just on another note, many times when trying to sanitize cv's the ball inside us either stuck or falls out.

[DrTimPerkins]

Okay, okay, I get it....Don't try to clean adapters....It can't be done.

So if this bacteria is so tenacious that it can't be killed with boiling water, one has to assume its still present in our finished syrup product.....

:rolleyes:

Since you still seem to be skeptical (although others have generously offered reasonable answers to your questions), I'll try to give a bit more in depth answer.

Many types of microbes we deal with in the maple world are not simple, single organisms that live alone. They tend to clump into clusters of organisms, and in doing so, form microfilms, which are exudations of saccharides and other gel-like substances that form a semi-solid matrix in which the microbes are protected and can proliferate. Getting these biofilms off the surface of materials is extremely difficult, and generally requires scrubbing or sonication AND chemical sanitizers. Good cleaning in most cases requires two steps, dislodging particles of "dirt" and sanitizing. Boiling, and even chemical cleaning alone, will kill many, if not most (or in some cases, all) of the microbes. Even when it does kill all of them, unless dislodged somehow, the biofilm itself remains. This is basically a house where a once a few microbes get back in, they will proliferate rapidly. So unless you both kill the microbes, and remove the biofilms, recolonization with microbes will be fairly quick. With something like a spout, if you scrub it out, you're likely to make small scratches in the surface of the plastic, which provide nice spots for microbes to "grab" onto and begin the colonization process. With a device like the CV, any imperfections in the ball itself due to these films could make the ball seat improperly, thus rendering it ineffective.

[Woodsrover]

Thanks, Dr. Perkins and I appreciate the reply as well as all the great help and information you provide for all on this forum.

My last post was more tongue-in-cheek than anything and I understand what everyone is saying and the reasons for replacing these adapters. That said, my wife is a PhD. and a Professor of Biology and I ran this question by her yesterday. She couldn't see any reason why these things couldn't be cleaned well enough and reused, but obviously she (and me too!) doesn't have the experience and research on just this question that you do so of course I'll take your advice. (But the cheap New Englander in me has a hard time throwing them out after just one use!)

Thanks again for all you do!

[johnpma]

So does this mean that everyone should be replacing their tubing with new tubing each season? I just want to understand the replacing a new spout into multi season used tubing???

On another note what do people use to clean their holding tanks/totes that are plastic?

[lewichuk19]

I'm curious how the tree is able to out pull the vac that is being created in a 3/16 system and suck the sap back. In theory the vac in 3/16 never shuts off once it starts unless it freezes. Or do I have that wrong??

[Super Sapper]

You want to keep the microbes from coming in contact with the exposed surface of the tree where you drilled the hole. You will not keep all the microbes out of the sap as there are too many places for them to colonize. The sap coming out of the tree has no microbes in it but once contaminated from contact with the taps or tubing you do not want that sap coming into contact with the tree.

[tbear]

Since you still seem to be skeptical (although others have generously offered reasonable answers to your questions), I'll try to give a bit more in depth answer.

Many types of microbes we deal with in the maple world are not simple, single organisms that live alone. They tend to clump into clusters of organisms, and in doing so, form microfilms, which are exudations of saccharides and other gel-like substances that form a semi-solid matrix in which the microbes are protected and can proliferate. Getting these biofilms off the surface of materials is extremely difficult, and generally requires scrubbing or sonication AND chemical sanitizers. Good cleaning in most cases requires two steps, dislodging particles of "dirt" and sanitizing. Boiling, and even chemical cleaning alone, will kill many, if not most (or in some cases, all) of the microbes. Even when it does kill all of them, unless dislodged somehow, the biofilm itself remains. This is basically a house where a once a few microbes get back in, they will proliferate rapidly. So unless you both kill the microbes, and remove the biofilms, recolonization with microbes will be fairly quick. With something like a spout, if you scrub it out, you're likely to make small scratches in the surface of the plastic, which provide nice spots for microbes to "grab" onto and begin the colonization process. With a device like the CV, any imperfections in the ball itself due to these films could make the ball seat improperly, thus rendering it ineffective.

Or, carefully scrub the "footprint". :lol: Thanks Dr.Tim! I looked for the original discussion with no luck and I appreciate you taking the time to rewrite the explanation. Ted

[DrTimPerkins]

(But the cheap New Englander in me has a hard time throwing them out after just one use!)

You are welcome to reuse them if you wish, but you simply will not get the same yield. You might get reasonably close though, and if your time is not worth anything, then cleaning might be a possibility if you are willing to accept reduced yield. If you're going to try it, I would use a mild-Clorox solution and some type of agitation (ultrasonic if possible), followed by a thorough 3X rinsing in very clean water, followed by very good drying and storage in clean plastic (only when completely dry). Even then, you will likely experience somewhat reduced yield for the reasons given earlier. You are not the first to try.

[maple flats]

The worst place to harbor those microbes is the tap, thus change every year, second worst is thew drop, thus replace it every 2-3 seasons. The lateral line does not seem to be the issue a drop is, that should be good for the life of the tubing.
When the sap is flowing the tree can't pull any sap back, on 3/16, until lines begin to freeze. At that time, the tree still has vacuum in the tree and some sap from the line that is still liquid having just left the tree that takes far longer to freeze can and does flow back into the tap hole.
Because of these facts, I use new taps every year and replace the drops every 2-3 years.
To be the absolute safest and thus get the maximum flow from a tap, the drop would be replaced every year, however studies have shown that the cost to replace every year costs more than the loss of sap from not changing. That relationship shifts at 2-3 years.

[DrTimPerkins]

I'm curious how the tree is able to out pull the vac that is being created in a 3/16 system and suck the sap back. In theory the vac in 3/16 never shuts off once it starts unless it freezes. Or do I have that wrong??

Unless you have a leak somewhere on the line. After a period of time on vacuum, vacuum is transferred into the vessels of the wood in the tree. So let's say you have 29" Hg vacuum in the line, and get a squirrel chew about 10' down the line or a fitting pops off somewhere. Under those conditions, the driving force of the vacuum is lost at that point in the line, and the vacuum in the line at that point is 0" Hg. You still have 29" Hg of vacuum IN THE TREE. Which way do you think sap will run? Hint....it isn't down. Nope...it'll run right back into the taphole, where the wood fibers around the inner part of taphole form a nice filter for all the microbes coming back from the tubing, leaving a nice coating of microbes all around the inner surface of the taphole. The tree senses these microbes, and to stave off infection, starts the wound-response process of closing off (walling off) the taphole, which happens far more quickly than most people think....a matter of weeks it becomes noticeable if carefully measured. Unfortunately, the reality is that due to the diameter of the tubing, sap in a 3/16" tubing system will run back WAY further than in a 5/16" system...on the order of tens of feet rather than a few feet. What is more common on 5/16" systems is pulses of backflow (on the order of inches) due to the introduction of air when a mechanical releaser dumps. You can see this happening at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__9xGeunEK8 An electric releaser avoids this (mostly), but is still susceptible to leak-induced backflow.

[lewichuk19]

Thank you Dave and Tim, that makes sense.

[DrTimPerkins]

The worst place to harbor those microbes is the tap, thus change every year, second worst is thew drop, thus replace it every 2-3 seasons. The lateral line does not seem to be the issue a drop is, that should be good for the life of the tubing.

If you want more information on it, that is exactly the subject of the papers at http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/aging.pdf and http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/tubing_age.pdf The story is slightly different (more exaggerated) with 3/16" tubing due to the increased susceptibility (in some ways) to backflow-related sanitation issues.

In essence, the spout is the most important component to keep clean, the dropline next (unless you are using CV spouts/adapters), and the lateral line and mainline are really not at all important in terms of sanitation-related yield concerns. What it all boils down to is that the cleanliness of the spout is of primary importance because most of the contamination of the taphole is related to the spout due to very small perturbations in vacuum causing periodic movement of sap backward from the spout/tubing into the taphole (backflow). Of secondary importance is the dropline, because, more rarely, larger leaks or system shutdowns can result in sap moving from a few feet away back into the taphole. This is less frequent though, so the dropline sanitation level is less critical, but still important. It is very rare for sap to flow from the lateral line (or mainline) all the way back into the taphole, so sanitation level there is not really important (in terms of sap yield reductions). Thus changing spouts annually and droplines periodically (every 2-3 yrs), or using CV spouts/adapters (which negates the need to change droplines as often) will result in the highest yields.

With 3/16" systems, the problem does extend a bit further along, so lateral line sanitation is somewhat more important.

It's a bit funny to me, but fulfilling as well, to hear people talk about this so much like it is common knowledge. Ten years ago it was not the case. It took quite a number of years of research and quite a bit of grant funding, and a lot of papers and presentations to get to where we are. I've spent a good deal of my career looking at this stuff, but have seen the industry go from talking about good yields being 0.3 gal syrup/tap to now over 0.5 gal/tap or higher (the UVM PMRC average from 2004-2017 is 0.59 gal/tap).

More on the subject of sanitation at http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/?Page=checkvalves.htm and others under "Recent Publications" at http://www.uvm.edu/pmrc

[Biz]

I assume for us with battery powered pumps that get turned off every night, the problem is worse? If so then CV spouts may be essential after the first year then, if good sanitation is even possible with this type of pump.

On my short runs of 3/16 tubing with 20-40 taps on a diaphragm pump, I'm planning on CV spouts and 5/16 drops to the adaptor tees. The pump will get turned off after the sap has stopped flowing and vacuum drops. These all seem like they should help but wondering if this type of setup has any chance of getting high yields per tap?

Dave

[markcasper]

If you want more information on it, that is exactly the subject of the papers at http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/aging.pdf and http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/tubing_age.pdf The story is slightly different (more exaggerated) with 3/16" tubing due to the increased susceptibility (in some ways) to backflow-related sanitation issues.

In essence, the spout is the most important component to keep clean, the dropline next (unless you are using CV spouts/adapters), and the lateral line and mainline are really not at all important in terms of sanitation-related yield concerns. What it all boils down to is that the cleanliness of the spout is of primary importance because most of the contamination of the taphole is related to the spout due to very small perturbations in vacuum causing periodic movement of sap backward from the spout/tubing into the taphole (backflow). Of secondary importance is the dropline, because, more rarely, larger leaks or system shutdowns can result in sap moving from a few feet away back into the taphole. This is less frequent though, so the dropline sanitation level is less critical, but still important. It is very rare for sap to flow from the lateral line (or mainline) all the way back into the taphole, so sanitation level there is not really important (in terms of sap yield reductions). Thus changing spouts annually and droplines periodically (every 2-3 yrs), or using CV spouts/adapters (which negates the need to change droplines as often) will result in the highest yields.

With 3/16" systems, the problem does extend a bit further along, so lateral line sanitation is somewhat more important.

It's a bit funny to me, but fulfilling as well, to hear people talk about this so much like it is common knowledge. Ten years ago it was not the case. It took quite a number of years of research and quite a bit of grant funding, and a lot of papers and presentations to get to where we are. I've spent a good deal of my career looking at this stuff, but have seen the industry go from talking about good yields being 0.3 gal syrup/tap to now over 0.5 gal/tap or higher (the UVM PMRC average from 2004-2017 is 0.59 gal/tap).

More on the subject of sanitation at http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/?Page=checkvalves.htm and others under "Recent Publications" at http://www.uvm.edu/pmrc

Tim, you brought up a thing that has refreshed my memory yet again. That being, at least once or twice per season, if not up to 1/2 dozen times, I have had the mainline fill up. freeze, and the whole system backs up to the point where many drops fill up all the way back to the tap. In one of my bushes especially, most of the large mainline is located in the coolest part of the woods, in the valley, while the tress and lats are on southerly slopes, up higher. For example. Last spring....I was tapping during a heavy run day (and lost it all), by 2 oclock in the morning when I finished tapping, the weather had turned below freezing, the trees ran solid until freeze up, I witnessed the sap backing up into the laterals, then the drops, and eventually running right out around the spout. The trees were warmer and wanted to keep running. So, the question is, isn't the use of a new checkvalve or tap already compromised and the whole contaminated? I have had this happen in all of my woods before and it is not because it does not have enough slope. You could have 10% slope and with the trees running as hard as they do sometimes, then you get a very sudden freeze up, the sap will not ever be able to drain fast enough.

[Mark]

Tim, you brought up a thing that has refreshed my memory yet again. That being, at least once or twice per season, if not up to 1/2 dozen times, I have had the mainline fill up. freeze, and the whole system backs up to the point where many drops fill up all the way back to the tap. In one of my bushes especially, most of the large mainline is located in the coolest part of the woods, in the valley, while the tress and lats are on southerly slopes, up higher. For example. Last spring....I was tapping during a heavy run day (and lost it all), by 2 oclock in the morning when I finished tapping, the weather had turned below freezing, the trees ran solid until freeze up, I witnessed the sap backing up into the laterals, then the drops, and eventually running right out around the spout. The trees were warmer and wanted to keep running. So, the question is, isn't the use of a new checkvalve or tap already compromised and the whole contaminated? I have had this happen in all of my woods before and it is not because it does not have enough slope. You could have 10% slope and with the trees running as hard as they do sometimes, then you get a very sudden freeze up, the sap will not ever be able to drain fast enough.

I have seen that happen when there is a leak at a multi fitting and it freezes the main up. When I put in the Smartrek system I was shocked to see what goes on in the bush. Before freeze up lines start going to zero vacuum and sometimes even pressurize. I keep track of which ones and the next day you can usually find the problem.

[DrTimPerkins]

...I witnessed the sap backing up into the laterals, then the drops, and eventually running right out around the spout. The trees were warmer and wanted to keep running. So, the question is, isn't the use of a new checkvalve or tap already compromised and the whole contaminated?

Although that could happen, it seems like a fairly unusual (at least not common) type of thing. Seems like perhaps your mainline either runs through a really cold spot or maybe has a high spot somewhere that doesn't allow it to drain properly. Either way, yes, it could result in backflow. However, keep in mind that if the trees are still thawed and sap is running then it means that there is PRESSURE within the tree for a good period of time as the lines freeze up, thus there should not be much of any sap moving backward at this time.

[markcasper]

Although that could happen, it seems like a fairly unusual (at least not common) type of thing. Seems like perhaps your mainline either runs through a really cold spot or maybe has a high spot somewhere that doesn't allow it to drain properly. Either way, yes, it could result in backflow. However, keep in mind that if the trees are still thawed and sap is running then it means that there is PRESSURE within the tree for a good period of time as the lines freeze up, thus there should not be much of any sap moving backward at this time.

Yes, there is some cold spots, BUT its not b/c the line has a dip in it. Doesn't help that there is only 2% slope in some areas. I have seen my other woods with a 500 ft. section of mainline, north side @ 2% slope with icicles hanging off practically EVERY saddle, and red maple taps that were untapped and capped off (end of season 2016) at the T blown off in the morning up to 50 ft from the mainline. Conditions prior to this were a HEAVY run day which continued right into the night when it froze up hard and fast. No possible way those lines will drain under these conditions. And like most of us, the releaser and tanks are located in the area of the bush that will freeze up first.

[WestfordSugarworks]

Unless you have a leak somewhere on the line. After a period of time on vacuum, vacuum is transferred into the vessels of the wood in the tree. So let's say you have 29" Hg vacuum in the line, and get a squirrel chew about 10' down the line or a fitting pops off somewhere. Under those conditions, the driving force of the vacuum is lost at that point in the line, and the vacuum in the line at that point is 0" Hg. You still have 29" Hg of vacuum IN THE TREE. Which way do you think sap will run? Hint....it isn't down. Nope...it'll run right back into the taphole, where the wood fibers around the inner part of taphole form a nice filter for all the microbes coming back from the tubing, leaving a nice coating of microbes all around the inner surface of the taphole. The tree senses these microbes, and to stave off infection, starts the wound-response process of closing off (walling off) the taphole, which happens far more quickly than most people think....a matter of weeks it becomes noticeable if carefully measured. Unfortunately, the reality is that due to the diameter of the tubing, sap in a 3/16" tubing system will run back WAY further than in a 5/16" system...on the order of tens of feet rather than a few feet. What is more common on 5/16" systems is pulses of backflow (on the order of inches) due to the introduction of air when a mechanical releaser dumps. You can see this happening at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__9xGeunEK8 An electric releaser avoids this (mostly), but is still susceptible to leak-induced backflow.

Dr. Tim, thanks for sharing this post. I had no idea that vacuum actually exists within the tree after sustained high vacuum from the tubing system. If I find a tree that is leaking during the season (tapped by someone without a good eye for what good shavings should look like) and can't find any good wood when I try to redrill, I will pull the dropline off and put in a 5/16" connector. When I do this there is a vacuum leak for a few seconds while I add in the fitting. Maybe I would do better to wire tie the dropline closed (kink it and wire tie) so that it can no longer leak and then remove it while pulling spouts, to prevent the issues you mention in your post.

Thanks for all you share with us.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Dr. Tim, thanks for sharing this post. I had no idea that vacuum actually exists within the tree after sustained high vacuum from the tubing system. If I find a tree that is leaking during the season (tapped by someone without a good eye for what good shavings should look like) and can't find any good wood when I try to redrill, I will pull the dropline off and put in a 5/16" connector. When I do this there is a vacuum leak for a few seconds while I add in the fitting. Maybe I would do better to wire tie the dropline closed (kink it and wire tie) so that it can no longer leak and then remove it while pulling spouts, to prevent the issues you mention in your post.

Thanks for all you share with us.
I carry a few pairs of needle noses vice grips in my "fix bag" when I am looking for leaks. When I find one, I clamp tubing on every side of leak before I fix it. This keeps the vacuum from being disrupted. Slide some pieces of 5/16" tubing over ends of vice grips so it doesn't damage tubing.
Neil

[berkshires]

Dr Tim, how much of this holds true for taps into buckets, without drop lines? Is it safe to assume that open taps will allow the tree to get infected pretty quickly? In other words, I would think that (unless it's really bad) the condition of the spile is not going to be the primary issue in infecting the tree.

So if I just clean my spiles with soapy water and then sterilize with bleach each year, I can probably keep using the same taps for several years without seeing a noticeable change in how quickly holes dry up?

Gabe

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Tim, how much of this holds true for taps into buckets, without drop lines? Is it safe to assume that open taps will allow the tree to get infected pretty quickly? In other words, I would think that (unless it's really bad) the condition of the spile is not going to be the primary issue in infecting the tree.

So if I just clean my spiles with soapy water and then sterilize with bleach each year, I can probably keep using the same taps for several years without seeing a noticeable change in how quickly holes dry up?

Gabe

Clean them as well as possible and only tap just before good weather. With open spouts on buckets/bags, tapholes will dry out considerably faster than on vacuum tubing systems.

[WestfordSugarworks]

I carry a few pairs of needle noses vice grips in my "fix bag" when I am looking for leaks. When I find one, I clamp tubing on every side of leak before I fix it. This keeps the vacuum from being disrupted. Slide some pieces of 5/16" tubing over ends of vice grips so it doesn't damage tubing.
Neil

That makes sense. Maybe i'll start doing that too. Fixed a few squirrel chews today and definitely was more hesistant about cutting the lateral and leaving it open for a few seconds than I used to. Sap coming in pretty good today.

[rhwells2003]

This will probably be frowned upon in this thread but just my personal experience. I soak my taps for a month prior to the season in a chlorine solution, mix them in the solution a couple times a week, and then rinse rinse rinse rinse before using them. Every year I replace probably a 1/5th of them b/c I know the chlorine breaks down the plastic after a while and weakens them. I've been doing this for 4 years and every year get 20-24gal/tap on 500 trees under 23-25" of vac. My father does the samething on 4000 taps and 25-27" of vac. Take that for what its worth. I guarantee there is a decent amount of research out there that shows "dirty" taps will help seal taps early and hurt your yield. I also guarantee the majority of people you hear out in the real world saying you NEED to change your taps every year work for a supplier . . . . . .

[DrTimPerkins]

I regularly say that it is possible to get used spouts back to a condition "close" to the performance (in terms of yield) of a new spout. However doing so does require some time and effort. We (and other researchers) have done this work and basically agree -- sanitizing is possible, but in order to be effective, it must be done correctly. When you calculate the amount of time it takes, and material cost, it can (not always), if you consider that your labor to be worth something, add up to be more than the cost of a new spout.

The important thing, at least in my mind, is generating a net profit for maple producers. If you clean/sanitize spouts cheaply, but the result is lower yield and thus lower profit, then you're leaving money on the table. If what you're doing costs a lot, but isn't increasing your yield, then you're reducing your net profit. It is important to find the "sweet spot" for your own operation and your own way of doing things that fit best within your operation and meet your goals.

[upsmapleman]

I'm going to try it this year and will let you know how I make out. What I do is put them in the washer and run them thru a cycle which I put on the sanitize cycle. Next I take them out and put in a sink with steramine which is used in food service to kill any harmful bugs. I then let them dry and about the only real time I have is I shake each one to make sure the ball is loose. I throw out any which don't which is about 10%. I figure I can due about 500 a hour.

[KJamesJR]

Maybe I missed something here?

Are we replacing the taps for the sake of the tree, the hole getting clogged or the final product? How is re-using old taps detrimental to sap yield?

I'm assuming we're talking about all these nasty critters being on the outside of a tap and not the inside? Theoretically if bacteria is present on the inside of the tap, then it's going to be in your tubing and in the final product so why aren't those being replaced as well?

[Cjadamec]

Bacterial contamination in a used tap quickens the trees wound response and will cause the tap hole in the tree to be less productive over the course of the season.

Thru research it has been learned that is technically possible to sterilize a tap, but the cost and effort to bring a tap back to like new condition more often than not far outweighs the cost of simply replacing taps.

[KJamesJR]

Bacterial contamination in a used tap quickens the trees wound response and will cause the tap hole in the tree to be less productive over the course of the season.

Thru research it has been learned that is technically possible to sterilize a tap, but the cost and effort to bring a tap back to like new condition more often than not far outweighs the cost of simply replacing taps.

Ahh... so having sterile taps is essential tricking the trees immune response system. This is why the seasons for tube users is longer than bucket users, because the holes don't scab over as quickly.

[blissville maples]

So with this pressure you speak of is this in a gravity or vacuum system? There wouldn't be pressure if the vacuum pump has created a 25+ inch vac inside tree, there would be vacuum? So when the line freezes wouldn't the tree pull back not push out?

QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;339058]Although that could happen, it seems like a fairly unusual (at least not common) type of thing. Seems like perhaps your mainline either runs through a really cold spot or maybe has a high spot somewhere that doesn't allow it to drain properly. Either way, yes, it could result in backflow. However, keep in mind that if the trees are still thawed and sap is running then it means that there is PRESSURE within the tree for a good period of time as the lines freeze up, thus there should not be much of any sap moving backward at this time.[/QUOTE]

[blissville maples]

At what length of time after initially tapping do we see a reduction in sap yield? Could we say that after 4 weeks your yield is half of what it would be? This would be directly related to temperature I assume. For instance tapping in January for early runs even though cold is likely less productive than waiting til March 1st?

Has anyone used colloidal silver to sanitize spouts? I think it takes 7 mins exposed to silver for bacteria to die.......

[GeneralStark]

So with this pressure you speak of is this in a gravity or vacuum system? There wouldn't be pressure if the vacuum pump has created a 25+ inch vac inside tree, there would be vacuum? So when the line freezes wouldn't the tree pull back not push out?

QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;339058]Although that could happen, it seems like a fairly unusual (at least not common) type of thing. Seems like perhaps your mainline either runs through a really cold spot or maybe has a high spot somewhere that doesn't allow it to drain properly. Either way, yes, it could result in backflow. However, keep in mind that if the trees are still thawed and sap is running then it means that there is PRESSURE within the tree for a good period of time as the lines freeze up, thus there should not be much of any sap moving backward at this time.[/QUOTE]

As Dr. Tim stated, if the tree is thawed, it is under pressure from the column of liquid above the taphole pushing down under gravity. When the tree freezes an internal vacuum is created. The situation he was referring to is when the tubing will often freeze before the tree does.

Under freeze/thaw sap flow conditions, sap is flowing from the taphole under pressure, even with vacuum tubing. Without a freeze, then sap then begins to be extracted from the tree under vacuum.

[blissville maples]

Yes the tree will build pressure, I guess what I meant is after 3 days of vacuum pump wouldn't that reduce the pressure in the tree to minimal or a vacuum(as was previously stated in this forum) and when this happens the tree will tend to pull sap back in and not push it out- so when an ice jam forms in the lateral or mainline the tree(behind the ice jam) will at some point have more vac in it than the line......I have been told to leave pumps on to reduce sap back flow but in the above situation leaving the pump on wouldn't necessarily reduce backflow, or itleast that's how it would seem to me......

[markcasper]

I have been told to leave pumps on to reduce sap back flow but in the above situation leaving the pump on wouldn't necessarily reduce backflow, or itleast that's how it would seem to me......

"Don't waste money on checkvalves, leave the pump run, does the same thing". has been cropping up more and more by non-Leader salesmen.

[DrTimPerkins]

"Don't waste money on checkvalves, leave the pump run, does the same thing". has been cropping up more and more by non-Leader salesmen.

I've had quite a few interesting lessons on the way business works in the last 7-10 years. It basically comes down to "all is fair in love and sales." :rolleyes: What else are they going to tell you....go shop at Leader Evaporator?

The reality is that different people with a range of operations, equipment, and pump/leak management styles will have different experiences and a range in the amount of benefit they will experience. What is telling (I think) is that all three major maple research organizations have done studies showing that they do work.

[DrTimPerkins]

... and when this happens the tree will tend to pull sap back in and not push it out- so when an ice jam forms in the lateral or mainline the tree(behind the ice jam) will at some point have more vac in it than the line......I have been told to leave pumps on to reduce sap back flow but in the above situation leaving the pump on wouldn't necessarily reduce backflow, or itleast that's how it would seem to me......

You are exactly right. That is one of the reasons why putting a check-valve in the lateral line near the mainline (as some have recently suggested) might help a bit under certain circumstances, but doesn't solve the problem entirely. The only way to ensure sap won't flow back into a tree is to put the valve as close as possible to each individual tree. All the things people have suggested (leaving pumps on all the time, use an electric releaser, use new spouts each year, replace droplines periodically) will HELP to reduce backflow or the consequences of backflow, but none of them eliminate (at least to a substantial degree) backflow into the tree like the CV does. Power going off and squirrels chewing lines are pretty common things....leaving your pump on if the power goes off doesn't do much for you. Unless you've got extra nice squirrels who only chew the laterals before the inline check-valve, then you'll have backflow. Maybe branches only fall on your mainlines...but never your lateral lines and pull fittings off.

The CV system is insurance...some people like the extra protection (and higher sap yields that come with it), some don't, but for vacuum users, I don't ever recall a scenario where the CV system didn't pay off in terms of extra yield and extra net profit to the producer beyond that of replacing spouts alone. The one exception might be gravity producers (I'm not talking about natural vacuum here....backflow occurs in 3/16" systems too...even more so than 5/16" systems). In some years the sap yields on gravity are just too low to justify the added cost, so the net economic benefit is close to zero or even slightly negative occasionally), but there is no way to predict when that'll happen ahead of time. It is more a simple matter of low yield in that case than the CV (which was designed for vacuum use) not doing its job.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

"Don't waste money on checkvalves, leave the pump run, does the same thing". has been cropping up more and more by non-Leader salesmen.

Leaving the pump on continuous and having an electric releaser will work most of the time. There are however, situations throughout the season that backflow will still occur. I have seen it. What happens when a fitting pulls apart and you instantly lose a few inches of vacuum really fast? Where is that sap in the lateral lines going then? Definitely not toward the releaser. When a manifold or fitting freezes because of a leak before it reaches freezing. When you lose power when the sap is running and the pump is off for some time. Releaser freeze ups and malfunctions. Pump breakdown. These are the times when check valves do their job. I use them. They work. Not only do you gain at the end of the season, but the small gains start somewhere about midway through the season and grow bigger with each run. It's pretty much the same every year. The first half of the season (early), you get small to medium runs, then somewhere around halfway through the season the trees get totally thawed and you get a major temp swing and a blowout run. After this run, cvs keep going strong, while traditional spouts slowly start losing yield. It's almost unnoticeable at first, but with each run the difference is greater and greater. Our best run last year was on Mar 30 and we started tapping on Dec 30. I know that would not have been the case without using cvs.
I just wish quality control would get better with them. Each year I find an issue. I'm not done tapping yet, but I already have over 600 out of 7,000 that are not going in the tree. They are going back to leader. The balls do not move freely in them. They stick. I inspect and shake every one before it gets put on the dropline. I feel for the price of them, you should be able to pull them out of the bag and use them without a thorough inspection.
Neil

[GeneralStark]

You are exactly right. That is one of the reasons why putting a check-valve in the lateral line near the mainline (as some have recently suggested) might help a bit under certain circumstances, but doesn't solve the problem entirely. The only way to ensure sap won't flow back into a tree is to put the valve as close as possible to each individual tree. All the things people have suggested (leaving pumps on all the time, use an electric releaser, use new spouts each year, replace droplines periodically) will HELP to reduce backflow or the consequences of backflow, but none of them eliminate (at least to a substantial degree) backflow into the tree like the CV does. Power going off and squirrels chewing lines are pretty common things....leaving your pump on if the power goes off doesn't do much for you. Unless you've got extra nice squirrels who only chew the laterals before the inline check-valve, then you'll have backflow. Maybe branches only fall on your mainlines...but never your lateral lines and pull fittings off.

The CV system is insurance...some people like the extra protection (and higher sap yields that come with it), some don't, but for vacuum users, I don't ever recall a scenario where the CV system didn't pay off in terms of extra yield and extra net profit to the producer beyond that of replacing spouts alone. The one exception might be gravity producers (I'm not talking about natural vacuum here....backflow occurs in 3/16" systems too...even more so than 5/16" systems). In some years the sap yields on gravity are just too low to justify the added cost, so the net economic benefit is close to zero or even slightly negative occasionally), but there is no way to predict when that'll happen ahead of time. It is more a simple matter of low yield in that case than the CV (which was designed for vacuum use) not doing its job.

Ok so during freeze/thaw sap flow, there is an internal vacuum in the trees tissue when it freezes, and when it then thaws, pressure builds in the trees tissue under gravity as the tree thaws. I'm sure there is nuance to this, but that is my general understanding of the mechanism. When a tree is freezing can it overcome the mechanical vacuum induced at the taphole? And if a tree is thawed for several days and one is still getting sap flow under mechanical vacuum, at this point is the vacuum level in the tree equivalent to that in the tubing?

It seems that some of this discussion is more related to mechanics occurring in the tubing system as it freezes, but I know you have a better understanding now of what is going on in the tree during sap flow and how it is affected by vacuum.

[spud]

I've had quite a few interesting lessons on the way business works in the last 7-10 years. It basically comes down to "all is fair in love and sales." :rolleyes: What else are they going to tell you....go shop at Leader Evaporator?

The reality is that different people with a range of operations, equipment, and pump/leak management styles will have different experiences and a range in the amount of benefit they will experience. What is telling (I think) is that all three major maple research organizations have done studies showing that they do work.

I have had dealers from non Leader outlets say they know the CV2 spouts are best but they have to push their product instead. I have dealer friends that would love to use the CV2 spout but they want to keep their jobs. We tease each other about it. When a dealer or sugar maker tells you that leaving the pump on is just as good as using a check valve then you know they have little understanding in the sap extracting process.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

It seems that some of this discussion is more related to mechanics occurring in the tubing system as it freezes, but I know you have a better understanding now of what is going on in the tree during sap flow and how it is affected by vacuum.

Both the mechanics of the tubing/vacuum system and the mechanics (physiology) of the tree are involved, and there are so many different permutations that it is difficult to generalize enough to cover all of them, however there are certainly times when a freeze-up can result in backflow of sap. Leaving the pump on will minimize it to some degree...but probably never eliminate it.

Essentially, all the different things that people do have some effect in term of minimizing backflow. Not shutting off pumps helps. Using an electric releaser compared to a mechanical releaser helps. Using new spouts helps. Cleaning (chemical sanitizing) helps. Periodic replacement of drops helps. Use of CV helps. In all cases, the goal is to have a very clean taphole and to keep it clean by minimizing (or eliminating to a high degree) the entry of microbes from the tubing system (primarily the dropline in 5/16" tubing, both dropline and lateral line in 3/16" tubing) back into the taphole where they will collect and grow, inducing a wound-response in the wood tissues which will physically and chemically "wall off" the surrounding tissues (resulting in the "stain" or brown wood we see around the taphole). This renders that area non-conductive of sap, starts to happen fairly quickly, and is progressive during the season. The reason trees do this is to prevent infection from spreading throughout the wood tissue. By "walling off" or compartmentalizing the affected tissues, the tree prevents the infection. The result that is more important to the maple producer is that this zone of affected tissue is less, and eventually, non-conductive to sap. In effect, the taphole has "dried out."

Some (most) of the backflow occurrences are very small/short, only a matter of an inch or two max. That is why simply replacing spouts has a sizeable effect. Most other backflow events are a bit larger, such as when the tree freezes up, or you have a small leak, or any of a number of other things. In those cases, backflow can be from several inches to a foot...but usually not more than 15" (5/16" tubing) or several feet (3/16" tubing). This is why changing the dropline helps so much. In some cases, if you get a major leak or the pump shuts off or your releaser fails, you can have sap flow back tens of feet, although this is quite rare, and should be avoided as much as possible. In all these cases though, no matter the source, the CV and its position as close to the taphole as possible, largely prevents backwards sap movement, thus providing some level of protection to the taphole.

With all of these approaches, there is a range of cost and benefit (both in terms of sap yield and net profit) in any strategy or combination of strategies. Some of it due to material cost, some of it due to labor costs. CV adapters/spouts cost more up front for the material. The other approaches (cleaning, drop replacement) cost some for the material, but generally cost quite a bit more on the labor side.

I can say that while our early studies were mostly done with a mechanical releaser, we've used an electric releaser for the past several years, and for a long time we have hardly ever shut off a pump during the season unless we get a good freeze that is forecast to last several days. Most of the time it gets turned after we tap, and shut off after we pull spouts. We still see a positive benefit to using CV in that setting...and we don't tend to make much of any commercial syrup. We stop before getting to that point. About the only time we use non-CV spouts is if the study calls for that, or if we want something to compare CV to, or if the tubing system is new. In a good chunk of our woods, we have drops that are 5-8+ yrs old now that produce as well as 2 yr old drops. We don't see much need to change them out unless the fittings start to fail.

HOPEFULLY we will have the final report of the joint UVM/Cornell sanitation study out shortly after the 2018 sugaring season. It will include a spreadsheet tool to allow producers to plug in their own values and play around with the different approaches and see what the estimated effect is on sap yield and net profit. Stay tuned.

[Robert K]

Thank you Dr. Perkins for your explanation. I have trialled the CV spouts since they were available and continue to see benefits when the system is on its second year or more. My experiments have always been small in nature due to the small amount of taps I have. The CV spouts continue to amaze me, they run longer and the difference can be seen in the tap hole when you pull the spout. I look forward to the report.

[markcasper]

With all of these approaches, there is a range of cost and benefit (both in terms of sap yield and net profit) in any strategy or combination of strategies. Some of it due to material cost, some of it due to labor costs. CV adapters/spouts cost more up front for the material. The other approaches (cleaning, drop replacement) cost some for the material, but generally cost quite a bit more on the labor side.



With that being said, I always ask myself, think to myself, why is there not an easier way/cheaper way/faster way to replace drops? I dream of inventing a better way. Is there any kind of new technology on the horizon to replace just the drop without having to replace the T as well? Wouldn't it be great if you could just pull the old drop off, keep the T, and slide a new drop on without having to use tubing tools and cutters.

[DrTimPerkins]

Wouldn't it be great if you could just pull the old drop off, keep the T, and slide a new drop on without having to use tubing tools and cutters.

At least one maple equipment company developed the fittings to make that possible. It didn't really catch on (in my opinion) due to high cost of implementation (you need two fittings, a length of dropline, and a new spout annually), and the perceived possibility of adding another leak point. That was when syrup was $2.90/lb bulk. Would be even less competitive now. It would have been profitable for the equipment company....not so much for the producer.

[GeneralStark]

The poly seasonal spouts I use including CV2s don't have barbs and they seal very well. I'm not sure why the drop side of the T could not have a similar style connection for the drop so it could be easily removed. I do occasionally have drops come off spouts when it freezes hard, so I guess that may be the drawback of not having a barb.

I know some folks that just cut off the drop right above the T and just use a straight connector to splice on a new piece of tubing instead of replacing the whole T and drop. That has been discussed here as well. It still requires tools, but is certainly easier and faster than replacing the whole drop.

[markcasper]

I know some folks that just cut off the drop right above the T and just use a straight connector to splice on a new piece of tubing instead of replacing the whole T and drop. That has been discussed here as well. It still requires tools, but is certainly easier and faster than replacing the whole drop.

Didn't you just double your prospects for leaks and more bacterial growth?

[GeneralStark]

Didn't you just double your prospects for leaks and more bacterial growth?

I didn't do anything as I don't use the practice I mentioned. Just mentioning it as an idea... I personally don't have issues with leaks at connectors but yes with any additional fitting I suppose that is a potential leak.

Here is one discussion of this that I quickly found: http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?26159-drop-extensions&highlight=drop