Teeing into 3/16 Tubing

[turnerburner]

I’ve been planning my 3/16 tubing run and need some advice. I have a group of trees located away from my main run I’d like to put on tubing. Would I be better off teeing into my main run or just running a separate line to my storage tank. I would be adding about 8 taps to the 20 on my main run. I want to make the most of the natural vacuum produced from the slope my trees are on.

[BSD]

I would keep it on one run if you have good elevation drop unless it's prohibitedly far away. 25-30 taps per 3/16 is my rule of thumb

[DrTimPerkins]

Don’t tee two lateral lines together. Results are generally never as good as one line going to each tree or running two separate lines.

[Super Sapper]

Either run a line to the tank or if it works you could tie into the either end of your other line as long as it is one continuous line.

[sbedilion]

Similar question here. I'm running lines for the first time. I have a small patch of maples near the top of a big hill. Obtaining drop isn't an issue. My issue is the trees aren't placed where I can hit them all (roughly 20 trees). The most I could hit is 4-5 trees at a time. I was planning on making 4-5 small runs with each run hitting a few trees, then teeing into 1 line that runs down the hill...all on 3/16th. Is this how I should handle it?

16992

[DrTimPerkins]

I was planning on making 4-5 small runs with each run hitting a few trees, then teeing into 1 line that runs down the hill...all on 3/16th. Is this how I should handle it?

Assuming you are not planning using any mainline, and will only be using 3/16" line, then NO, that is not a good plan. Think of tees as junctions in the road, without road signs. Everywhere you have these junctions, sap on one line has to slow down as the sap in another line runs past. This causes the sap in the one leg to back up, and sometimes (especially when the sap is otherwise running well) it'll be a real traffic jam and the sap will just sit there and not move. It is like a single-lane highway with lots of intersections with too many cars on it.

Plenty of research and plenty of producer experience has shown that this approach is not a good idea.

[sbedilion]

5/16 then? Spider web together my patch of trees then run them down hill? I understand I won't get the vacuum but I'm ok with it. I'm a backyard producer...100 taps this season.

[sbedilion]

5/16 then? Spider web together my patch of trees then run them down hill? I understand I won't get the vacuum but I'm ok with it. I'm a backyard producer...100 taps this season.

or 3/16 several 4-5 tree runs and drop them into a 1/2in mainline? Thanks for any advice!

[Super Sapper]

Why can't you weave the 3/16 through the 20 trees and then head down the hill?

[ronintank]

Why can't you weave the 3/16 through the 20 trees and then head down the hill?
Thats what you need to do.

[maple flats]

Just start at the highest, farthest away tree and weave back and forth to tap all the trees, then head down hill. On a flat at the top, it does not matter that you have some ups and downs, you just want as much down as possible in the home stretch.
Most of my 3/16 starts a few hundred feet across a rather flat plane, but then I have 30-50' of drop towards the bottom. This works perfectly with 3/16 but would not with 5/16. Do not go to 5/16 anywhere along the route (except 5/16 drops work well). As soon as you tie to 5/16 you lose all the benefits you gained with 3/16 before that point.

[sbedilion]

will do. i'm just a newbie at tubing. thanks!

[buckeye gold]

Don’t tee two lateral lines together. Results are generally never as good as one line going to each tree or running two separate lines.

Hmmm, although I been sugaring for about 10 years this is my first experience with tubing. Your reply has me thinking, Dr. Tim. I have 5 runs of all 3/16th and 4 of them are continuous line from tree to tree with 14-25 taps per line and at least 25' fall on all 5. However, on one run i had 5 taps off to the side across my main woods rd and I did not want to cross it. They were high enough and adjacent to another run that I ran a line from those five taps and teed into the other run. There are 8 taps above this tee, but all 13 of these taps are pretty much within 5-6 feet of each other in elevation. I have ~300 feet of run with another 8 taps below these and 30+ feet of drop to the collection point. Did I make a mistake? I could run the line for those 5 down to an end tree on another run and simply make it an extension of that line, I'd just have to cross my road and put removable couple there. Should i redo this or just let the 5 extra taps go. They are historically strong producers and I hate to miss them.

[DrTimPerkins]

Why can't you weave the 3/16 through the 20 trees and then head down the hill?

This would be the most favorable approach.

[buckeye gold]

I guess I left out that the five trees are below the others by 5-6 feet in elevation and probably 40 feet in length....I'm not going to be able to pull sap back up hill that far am I? Assuming I won't I don't see it being feasible to weave them into the run. I have kept everything on slope so far, and figured a tee was less of a block than an up hill climb.

[cjf12]

This is all a little new to me. Didn't realize teeing in was a problem. When I tapped last year I tried to put 25 to 30 taps on a run to fill the line quicker to get vacuum. I teed like crazy. 5 trees here 10 there. What is the minimum amount you would want on a run. I have some redo work to get on it seems. 0 degrees or not Saturday, I guess I know where I will be.

[Snowmad]

Since Dr. Tim is following this, I have a question that relates to this subject for him. I understand that you can't "T" in different lines and you explained that very well. I'm sure we've all got this ONE outlier tree that isn't near the line for whatever reason. My question is, how long, realistically, can you have a "drop" when using all 3/16"? If one tree is say 10' from your line and is up the hill from it, can you run 10' of line to the tree for one tap and treat it as a "drop"? Or is 3' or 40" the maximum for a drop? If 10' would work, would 20'? Just wondering as I had this with one tree last year and didn't know if I could run an extra long drop to it or not. Thank you in advance. I hope I was clear enough in my question you can answer.

[maple flats]

I guess I left out that the five trees are below the others by 5-6 feet in elevation and probably 40 feet in length....I'm not going to be able to pull sap back up hill that far am I? Assuming I won't I don't see it being feasible to weave them into the run. I have kept everything on slope so far, and figured a tee was less of a block than an up hill climb.
As long as you have good fall after the taps on the lower section and enough taps to generate good vacuum, yes, you can pull sap up 5-6' from a lower section. Think of it as a sap ladder, but on 3/16 you need no infused air to help it up.
That being said, the taps in that lower area will get a reduced vacuum, if the air (gas) bubbles take up 50% of the tubing you will lose roughly 3 or 4", if it fills less than 50% of the tubing, you will lose even more, but you will still get vacuum in that portion. In season, watch all taps for leaks but pay even more attention to those taps in the lower area. When the lines freeze those will be slightly more apt to have ice push those taps out a little. If the leak, gently reseat.

[DrTimPerkins]

Since Dr. Tim is following this, I have a question that relates to this subject for him. I understand that you can't "T" in different lines and you explained that very well. I'm sure we've all got this ONE outlier tree that isn't near the line for whatever reason. My question is, how long, realistically, can you have a "drop" when using all 3/16"? If one tree is say 10' from your line and is up the hill from it, can you run 10' of line to the tree for one tap and treat it as a "drop"? Or is 3' or 40" the maximum for a drop? If 10' would work, would 20'? Just wondering as I had this with one tree last year and didn't know if I could run an extra long drop to it or not. Thank you in advance. I hope I was clear enough in my question you can answer.

There is no clear-cut answer for this. In this case, if the alternative was running another line and spending a good amount of $ to do that, I'd probably go with one "long" drop, but with the realization that this is not "best practice" and you will likely get some reduction in yield because of it. In general though, this practice should be avoided, and you definitely don't want to put tees or wyes into the system all over the place and expect them to produce well. Again, going back to the road analogy, we've all seen those intersections on a busy road where another road comes in, and traffic backs up on the side road due to the difficulty (resistance) in merging. In terms of tubing, except for drops, all merging (tees or wyes) should be done in a mainline OR the road (tubing) should lead directly to the destination (a tank).

[buckeye gold]

I been following and participating in this thread and it is one of the things that make this forum "Wonderful". It would take most of us years of compromised production to figure many of these mistakes out, being able to glean so much great information is like being able to transport to our future for those learning new skills.

With that said I think one perspective that we all may want to consider in these tubing scenarios is the operational level of the producer and whether the operation really requires peak performance. I know for myself, and I suspect several others asking questions in this thread, I don't need absolute optimum production, I just want less labor intensive good production. I have worked buckets and bags for 10 years and I imagine even my less than perfect 3/16th tubing set up will far out produce what I used to get on buckets and bags. I respect that the best practices should always be the goal, but if you are a hobbyist and peak production is not going to matter a lot why not just do what is simpler.

[DrTimPerkins]

With that said I think one perspective that we all may want to consider in these tubing scenarios is the operational level of the producer and whether the operation really requires peak performance. I know for myself, and I suspect several others asking questions in this thread, I don't need absolute optimum production, I just want less labor.

I completely agree, however, it is important to know what proper practice is, and what the trade-offs are for deviating from those in order to make informed decisions. This is especially true if it impacts the economics of the situation.

[buckeye gold]

I agree Dr Tim, we should know what proper practice is and the +/- of deviations. That is how we make informed decisions and decide what is best for each application. It makes us all better.

[markcasper]

I agree Dr Tim, we should know what proper practice is and the +/- of deviations. That is how we make informed decisions and decide what is best for each application. It makes us all better.

In all honesty and in respect of everyones opinions, including mine, I think we all have more to learn about 3/16". In fact, I don't think the surface has been scratched yet. I don't know about everyone else or maybe its just me, but I don't really "trust" even the recommendations on the number of taps per line yet. I don't think anyone can say with 100% proof yet what the optimum number of taps should be. It took 40-50 years for the 5/16" system to get perfected. I mean when they first started all the drops were to be 5 feet long, vented spouts and the lats laying on the ground. I look back at some of that old literature I have and just shake my head thinking how silly they were, yet they thought they were ahead of times. And gravity 3/16" seems to be more ahead based on the scientific, non- artificial way of achieving vacuum. If I were to put in a new woods, I'm really not fully confident at this point to go all 3/16" with pumped vacuum. Just saying.

[sugarsand]

There is no clear-cut answer for this. In this case, if the alternative was running another line and spending a good amount of $ to do that, I'd probably go with one "long" drop, but with the realization that this is not "best practice" and you will likely get some reduction in yield because of it. In general though, this practice should be avoided, and you definitely don't want to put tees or wyes into the system all over the place and expect them to produce well. Again, going back to the road analogy, we've all seen those intersections on a busy road where another road comes in, and traffic backs up on the side road due to the difficulty (resistance) in merging. In terms of tubing, except for drops, all merging (tees or wyes) should be done in a mainline OR the road (tubing) should lead directly to the destination (a tank).
Dr Tim, using roads as an anology was interesting, but something popped into the back of my head after reading it and sitting here picturing a road with sap running down it. Wouldnt a road without entrances just be a empty road?
Sorry, not trying to be sarcastic just trying to keep my mind off the -33 degrees this morning.

[wnybassman]

Last year I had four trees that didn't fit in with any other run so I linked those together and came into the nearest lateral a good three feet high and dropped straight down into it like a drop would. During times of sap flow there was always a foot or so of sap above the T waiting for its turn into the lateral. Not sure how much loss there was, but I figured whatever I gained was better than not tapping those four trees at all. This year I rerouted lines further down the hill and was able to eliminate that situation.

[BSD]

getting back to the negative elevation and siphoning up hill. it does work. extremely well if you have no leaks and a good amount of sap in the lines and elevation drop to draw it over the rise.

last year was my first year using 3/16 and had to create a lift to get over an access road. I dug through some of my old posts and I had 8' of lift on natural vacuum. Most of my lines maintained 24-26" vac with no pump. Old thread here ->http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?29482-3-16-Natural-Vacuum-Questions-for-Layout/page2