Pumping up hill

[tonka]

I'm needing to pump sap up vertical about 30 feet to get the sap over a hill in order to get the sap out of the woods. Is what I'm wanting to know from others who have run into this same scenario, how do you support your line that is hanging 20+ feet up in the air so that the line dose not sag? My thinking is to use a cable tied off to a tree at the desired height next to my tank at the bottom of the hill and the other end of the cable will be tied off at the top of the hill and then use high tinsel wire from the top of the hill to the road where my transfer tank will be at, this way I can get the cable as tight as I can to prevent the line from sagging since I think cable is a bit more solid then wire and is much stronger then wire. I also figure that I would have the cable tied off higher then need be to compensate for any sagging while sap is being pumped through the line. The hill as about 20 to 25 feet above the lowest point(holding tank location) and from the holding tank to the road is just under 1,000 feet, I'm thinking about using 1" mainline since I have a couple roles on hand. This particular woods I could potentially see close to 2,000 taps in.

[wnybassman]

In my new little woods the slope is the wrong way from the road so my collection tank is at the bottom of the hill and I pump it all the way back to the road. I used 3/4" black pipe for a pump out line (probably should of used 1" but didn't) and it is about 325' long with a elevation change of about 80'. I used 3/16" cable and anchored to a locust tree mid way to break it up a little, as well as using a couple trees along the way as additional support. I also used 3/8" x 6" turnbuckles so I can really stretch that cable good. Slight sagging, but nothing that will stop the flow back when it drains back. That reminded of why I choose 3/4" pipe, to keep drain back to a minimum. Even with 3/4" I get 10 gallons draining back.

[Kettle Ridge]

I only wired a 1" mainline on the bottom half of the slope running down to the second tank. The rest of the mainline lay on the ground up and over the hill from the first tank to the wired section. Since the second tank was a couple of feet lower in elevation than the first tank I was hoping that the last sap would get sucked up and over the hill so there would be no drain back. This seemed to work sometimes except I often got airlock and the sap didn't drain either direction and I would have to uncover a drilled hole to release airlock. Of course then it drained in both directions. One time the mainline froze because I didn't drain it properly and that was a real problem. Could be because of small dips on the ground where the mainline was laying. This year I plan to hoist the mainline at the top of the hill to be sure there are no dips and hope everything drains naturally to the second tank with no drain back. We shall see. I wonder if there is such a thing as a gas-powered portable diaphragm pump that could push the sap up the 60' slope and then push air through to ensure it all drains to the second tank.

[wnybassman]

I wonder if there is such a thing as a gas-powered portable diaphragm pump that could push the sap up the 60' slope and then push air through to ensure it all drains to the second tank.

My plan this season with my 10 gallons of drain back sap is to drain it into a 15 gallon container that I can set aside in a shed right next to the tank and keep it separate from the fresh sap coming into the tank. If it is still good when I pump up again, I will add it to the tank while I'm pumping.

I have also thought about metering the exact amount of drain back sap and adding that exact amount of water to the tank just as it empties and having that water push the sap up, then just drain back the water. A couple issues with this though. Not sure how much mixing goes on while fluids are traveling up the pump out line. And second, not sure how I will get water at the bottom of my hill. I have a small stream that usually runs cold and clear that time of year, but.............................that ain't a good idea probably. lol

[tonka]

Thanks for all your guys input. I have 2 ways that I am debating on running the line: 1. elevating the line and pumping vertical as I said in my post but have a ladder stand on the tree I have my line tied off too and use a self priming pump on top the stand as long as the pump can handle lifting the sap 25 to 30 feet, this way one can avoid having a lot of sap back flow from the line and if the pump don't work on top the ladder stand it can be put on the ground. 2. is to avoid the elevated line and use my mainline that will be running straight up the hill and have ball valves on the two 1" lateral lines running into the mainline, I close the valves so the sap dose not get pumped into the lateral lines and have a ball valve at the top end of the mainline to close off the system when done pumping. Downside is: pump will be at the bottom so the 500 ft of mainline sill drain back to the tank once the tank is empty. With 1 1/2" mainline would be about 50 gallons.

[VT_K9]

We move all of our sap to the sugar house. We are in the process of adding a second location. The first is 730' long with a 65' rise. The second is 1200' long with a 60' rise. In the first location we were new to the large SS tanks and did not know enough to spec out a larger drain. We use a 1 1/2" Honda pump for 26 gallons a minute in 1 1/2" line. We have about 75 gallons draining back and split it between two 55 gallon barrels we bring out on the tractor. We learned and know better and have spec'd the new tank to have a 2" outlet and will use a 2" honda pump for about 46 gallons a minute. The first tank is a CDL 588 gal and the second is a CDL 788 gal.

We run our pump lines like the mainlines. We use a wire with about 50' between trees. Some of our pump line is 12 or so feet high. We use high tensile wire and the gripples with a gripple tool. This works fast and is a great way to make repairs. We have used the small wire ratchets and they are very simple to use too. We used to use a come-along with a wire puller, what a pain. Then we stretch the pump line and tie it to the support wire. This has worked well for us and we generally follow the slope of the ground we cover.

With our new run we will have a few hundred feel about 16' feet up so we can pass under it with heavy equipment for trail making and when it comes time to log the area. We have a Q/A adapter plate for the excavator and will use Q/A forks with a man lift cage to achieve the height. You can rent the man lifts too.

Mike
Mike

[maple flats]

Thanks for all your guys input. I have 2 ways that I am debating on running the line: 1. elevating the line and pumping vertical as I said in my post but have a ladder stand on the tree I have my line tied off too and use a self priming pump on top the stand as long as the pump can handle lifting the sap 25 to 30 feet.
Tonka, the theoretical max a pump at sea level with 29.92" mercury air pressure will not lift sap 30', 25 likely yes, but you are not at sea level nor below sea level. Even with a 25' lift if the pump can do it, the GPM will be radically reduced. Many pumps will have a max lift under that. To move sap efficiently you need to push it not suck it for the lift.
I suggest you come up with a way, to run a vent off the high point that you can control from the ground after pumping. It could be a 5/16 line off a saddle at the top, maybe a swing check to prevent the 5/16 from filling with sap and a ball valve on that 5/16 where you can open it at ground level to drain both directions from the high point.

[anchorhd]

In my new little woods the slope is the wrong way from the road so my collection tank is at the bottom of the hill and I pump it all the way back to the road. I used 3/4" black pipe for a pump out line (probably should of used 1" but didn't) and it is about 325' long with a elevation change of about 80'. I used 3/16" cable and anchored to a locust tree mid way to break it up a little, as well as using a couple trees along the way as additional support. I also used 3/8" x 6" turnbuckles so I can really stretch that cable good. Slight sagging, but nothing that will stop the flow back when it drains back. That reminded of why I choose 3/4" pipe, to keep drain back to a minimum. Even with 3/4" I get 10 gallons draining back.

WNYBassman, what pump are you using ?

[wnybassman]

WNYBassman, what pump are you using ?

The Honda WX10T

[jimmygarison]

Now I posted the link :


http://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?t=2196&highlight=solar+pumps

[CTSap4Maple]

How about a check valve at some point mid-slope for the drain back?

[VT_K9]

The concern here would be draining the line at the end of pumping. The line will freeze and create more issues than you want to deal with if it cannot be drained.

[U.P. Sapsucker]

We Run 1800' up hill from pump house to the sugar shack. The rise is about 70'The is a submersable pump in the releaser (25 gal per minute 1 1/2 hp) The line is underground 2 feet. We have approx. 4000 taps on this section. Has works great for the last two years. we get enough snow that it insulates the ground well enough that it rarely freezes. At the end of the year It's hooked into the releaser with a couple of valves, so we can open them up and Vacuum out the line and flush with water from the pump house. Works pretty good for us.

[Ridgeland Farm]

I pump uphill about 100 feet in elevation and 1500ft distance. imposible for me to not have sags in some spots for me. I just run it on 12.5 ga wire. where I can I have it anchored to a tree every 30 or 40 feet but I cross a field about 200 feet wide so no support there. It has always syphoned itself completely out when I drain it. I have about 3000 taps and use a 3/4 hp deep well pump.

[S.S.S]

We are pumping 3000' with elevation rise of 50' on 1300 taps using 1/2 hp deep well pump at 10gpm

[Kettle Ridge]

Do you have electric at the pump or do you use a generator? If a generator, any recommendations?

[U.P. Sapsucker]

Electric pump. You could have a generator hooked up and a VFD on the pump so you would not need much of a generator to drive it because of the amp load with a VFD. It will convert single phase power to 3 phase so you could have a 3 phase pump using very little power. A producer in my area has this setup on a vac pump 5Hp 3 phase and he says it draws less than 10 amps at startup with a generac 7500 generator.

[crashmjsapman]

We pump approx 2500 ft with a 65 -70 vertical lift. At the end of the night we blow the line out with a air compressor. Approx. 100 +/- gallons of sap come from the line after pumping. We have not had a freeze up since we started using the air compressor.

[S.S.S]

Do you have electric at the pump or do you use a generator? If a generator, any recommendations?last year the pump was single phase. We have a Honda 7000 fuel injected generator that runs a 3 phase vacuum pump and the releaser pump. That generator has no issue running both but this year we have a mes releaser with 3phase pump in it. Gonna see how that works