Liquid Or Solid Defoamer?

[Maple Ridge Tapper]

Does one or the other work better? I will just be manually adding it to the flue pan this season. What's the difference between the liquid and solid and do any of them make any difference to the taste or color of the syrup? Recommendations for favorite brands/sellers of it? I've read I can use organic Sunflower oil too. Any preferences of what you guys think works the best without having a negative affect on the syrup?

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

I use the liquid and the only draw back on it for me is after a cold night it hardens and it has to be warmed up to bring it back to a liquid

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.

[markcasper]

I use the liquid and the only draw back on it for me is after a cold night it hardens and it has to be warmed up to bring it back to a liquid

which has propylene glycol in it and the industry, along with the FDA considers it safe. what a joke!

[n8hutch]

On the farm growing up we used to kosher granulated stuff. Then as a hobby producer my friends and I used evaporated milk it was cheap u poke a hole in the can and one drop took care of the foam. When I went on my own and started selling I went with the Atmos defoamer just because it was FAD approved and readily available, virtually every distributor has it on the shelf. I have however always been kind of concerned about what's in it.

I realize the ppm that would end up in the syrup is very low but as others have said the same is true for Butter fat or animal fat.
I know one guy who uses unsalted butter and I really don't see anything wrong with it. If I have people in the shack and I'm Boiling and they see me adding atmos it always ends up with a long conversation about it depending on the vistor. Seems like if you just had a little butter or something like that it's pretty hard to argue with what it is.

Maybe someone knows exactly what's in the Atmos and why it's FDA approved and could explain it better.

[Mark]

I quit using defoamer 7 years ago when I found out what was in it. The stuff does not appear to evaporate off, take a look at the surface of the syrup in the sunlight and it looks like a rainbow.

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.

[DrTimPerkins]

which has propylene glycol in it and the industry, along with the FDA considers it safe. what a joke!

PG is what the FDA refers to as "GRAS", or "generally recognized as safe. The acute oral toxicity of food-grade PG is quite low. It is not the same as ethylene glycol (antifreeze), although it is used for the same purpose (to modify freezing properties....such as in ice cream).

A thread on Atmos 300k defoamer was active a few years back. http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?22316-Atmos-300K/page2 It is a very effective defoamer, but not allowed in organic maple syrup production. Milk and milk-derived defoamers are frowned upon due to the presence of allergens (proteins) in them, so the amount used is not the important factor, the material itself is. Whether or not these proteins can survive the maple syrup making process has not been well investigated.

The larger issues are that some maple producers:
- use too much defoamer (thinking "a little is good, a lot is better", which can produce off-flavors and lead to scorched pans)
- use defoamer in the wrong location (which can lead to batching, large batches, and scorches)
- may use unapproved defoamers (milk, cream, bacon, other animal fats - which may produce allergic reactions in sensitive individuals or are not Kosher, Halal, or Vegan, or can cause off-flavors)
- that organic certified defoamers have limited effectiveness (leading back to the first issue)

We have some ongoing research that might help alleviate some of these issues (or not).

[DrTimPerkins]

If you follow my link in my first comment, you will find a lengthy discussion of past and present de-foamers, and why I choose to use Heavy Cream. Here it is again: http://amaranthfarmnh.blogspot.com/2017/04/de-foaming-agent-transparency.html

The issue with milk produces is not lactose intolerance, it is an allergic reaction to proteins found in milk. There is a HUGE difference.
Lactose intolerance = stomach upset, gas, and perhaps diarrhea.
Allergic reaction = hives, wheezing, shortness of breath, possible anaphylactic shock and death.

[Brian]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/minn-teen-family-sues-eatery-death-pancakes-article-1.2151905 I hope this wasn't from a sugarmaker that used heavy cream for a defoamer. REMEMBER, the cream/dairy gets concentrated, it doesn't leave the syrup. We have family members that have severe food allergies so when you are doing any kind of cooking in your sugarhouse with nuts or other allergens, be well aware.

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.

[DrTimPerkins]

That number was 0.001491% of the total contents for the spring of 2017.

The amount is not really terrifically important. Even minuscule amounts can trigger a reaction in sensitive individuals.

[amaranth farm]

Radio Silence.

[Maple Ridge Tapper]

Thank you for all the comments. Last season we used unsalted butter. We are just hobby producers selling to friends, family and to individuals on our website etc but after last season I started thinking about those things with the possible dairy alergies etc so now I'm trying to figure out what to use for this season.

Dr Perkins what are you using for a defoamer since you don't think dairy products are a good choice? What do you recommend to use?

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

We use organic canola oil.....it seems to work better in the liquid form than the spray does. We purchase it from our local natural foods store.
Neil

[markcasper]

By me bringing it up was not meant to slam those that use it (including me. But I approach it and use it as a "necessary evil". I do not buy all of these allergic reactions that people seem to have. There is something else involved causing some of these so called allergic reactions other than what we are told in my opinion. Lawyers are one of them!

Why did we not hear of these mass allergies 30 years ago? Some of it is 80% of the food in a supermarket would not have been on the shelf 80 years ago. I belive all of the processing of food making it junk has alot to do with this matter.

[markcasper]

We use organic canola oil.....it seems to work better in the liquid form than the spray does. We purchase it from our local natural foods store.
NeilI have always heard and read that canola (rapeseed) is bad, bad, bad for the body. I have read about people using organic sunflower and safflower oil for organic.

[DrTimPerkins]

Further, the protein only makes up 1.4 % of heavy cream. Therfore, only 1.4% of the 0.001491% is protein.

Cream does have about half the protein content compared to milk. The milk allergen sensitivity threshold starts at about 600 ppb, so your margin of safety is not all that tremendously huge. Your calculations are for the entire season and are valid for your entire crop.....but what about the end of the season syrup when you're using much more defoamer than at the beginning? Do you use twice the normal amount, 3X, 4X, 5X.....at that point you are creeping into the zone of sensitivity for some people.

Let's say instead that you use cream (or milk, or butter) in making maple cream, or candy. At that point, there is almost no dilution factor and you're going to be well over the threshold of some highly sensitive individuals.

It is safer for most people to simply use approved products. You're fine (apparently) assuming the risks, but it clearly is not the best approach for most producers.

[DrTimPerkins]

By me bringing it up was not meant to slam those that use it (including me. But I approach it and use it as a "necessary evil". I do not buy all of these allergic reactions that people seem to have. There is something else involved causing some of these so called allergic reactions other than what we are told in my opinion. Lawyers are one of them!

Why did we not hear of these mass allergies 30 years ago? Some of it is 80% of the food in a supermarket would not have been on the shelf 80 years ago. I belive all of the processing of food making it junk has alot to do with this matter.

A relatively small percentage of the population have true allergies. A good deal more claim to, or believe they are allergic to certain things. Perhaps they got sick once after eating something, and now think they are allergic. Same goes with people with service dogs, or those who park in handicap spaces because their legs hurt (but probably best not to start that conversation). In any case, TRUE allergies are life-threatening and not something that is merely there to annoy the rest of us. Why are there more reports.....better communication. You hear about stuff that happens on the other side of the world 2 hrs ago these days. Secondarily, medicine manages to keep people with various medical issues alive. Centuries ago if you had diabetes....you died. You had bad eyes, you fell off a cliff (or couldn't hunt effectively). Nowadays, medicine, glasses, less hazardous lives....people live, reproduce, and pass on those genes.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

I have always heard and read that canola (rapeseed) is bad, bad, bad for the body. I have read about people using organic sunflower and safflower oil for organic.

I am by no means an expert on defoamers. I do know that there are two ways to extract oil from a plant. One is by expeller extraction(squeezing oil out of plant). The other is by chemical extraction which produces hexane. The canola oil we use is expeller extacted, which does not involve use of chemicals. We started using this type of defoamer because it was recommended by organic certifier.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Perkins what are you using for a defoamer since you don't think dairy products are a good choice? What do you recommend to use?

This is not an endorsement of any type, however before we were certified organic, we used Atmos 300k. Now that we are organic certified we use certified organic safflower oil.

[DrTimPerkins]

The reality of 100% being in the finished product is also debatable.

I agree with you on this point, however there has been insufficient research to establish it as fact.

[n8hutch]

Does safflower oil work good? I tried canola oil last year when I ran out of atmos and it was not effective.

[DrTimPerkins]

Does safflower oil work good? .

Not particularly.

[Tmeeeh]

We're certified organic so can't use Atmos. We used to use organic canola but switched to organic safflower after Henry Marcres commented on the canola flavor in our syrup. The safflower seems to have the least flavor. We use a squirt bottle with the pump handle and add one squirt to the steam away every 5 minutes. We use a timer to be consistent. If we have to add a small amount of oil to the sryup pan to control foam it means we aren't putting too much in the steam away. If we have to add a lot to the syrup pan then we go to one and a half squirts in the steam away. If we don't need to add any to the syrup pan maybe it means we might be putting too much in the steam away.