CV spouts or CV spout adapters?

[whity]

We have sureflo vacuum systems in our 4 bushes. We will be putting new drops and spouts this season. Should we consider CV spouts or the CV spout adapter?

[n8hutch]

Provided that you have 3 feet or longer Drops I don't think there is much benefit to using a CV spout with a new drop line. I would just use a disposable seasonal spout. If your going to go the 2 piece route, check valve / stubby adapter. Then you may want to go with a stubby and a non cv spout for the first year. Unless of course you don't care about the money saved.

[DrTimPerkins]

Nate is correct. With brand new drops there is little to be gained by using CV spouts or adapters. They will provide a very slight benefit in sap yield the first year which is likely to be not worth the added cost. In subsequent years the difference in yield (and net economic benefit) increases.

[S.S.S]

Definitely use the stubbys either way you go. You will thank yourself later.

[Biz]

I think it can be a different situation when using the small Shurflo pumps, depending on how they are controlled, and the CV's may help. These small battery operated pumps usually get turned off at night. When the pump stops and there is non-frozen sap in the line there is an amazing amount of sudden backflow, which will contaminate the top hole. The CV taps should reduce the effect.
The other thing that can be done is to wait until the lines have frozen before turning off the pump to eliminate backflow, but this is tough to do in reality. And it needlessly discharges the battery, if keeping it charged is a concern. I know last season I had a line on a Shurflo pump which got turned off every night. The drops were not fresh, I didn't use CVs, and the line completely stopped running a week before a gravity line right across the road, 30 ft away. I blame it on the back flow but the 3 year old drops may have had an effect too.
This coming season I will be using CVs with new drops, and my new controller will wait for sap flow and vacuum level to drop before turning off the pump, which should all help. Will be interesting to see how it works out.

Dave

[Super Sapper]

I use a temp. controller on my lines with shurflo pumps to turn them off just after the line freezes. I have been swamped the last couple of years at the end so my lines sit with sap in them for a couple of weeks at the end with no freeze and stuff does start to grow. New drops with seasonal spouts actually are cleaner than the CV spouts when I get around to pulling taps. The CV spouts do help on 2 plus year drops but I have not seen any problems with seasonal spouts on new drops. I have gone to all 3/16 lines as the ones on a slope get the added natural gravity but the ones on flat ground just seem to run better than the 5/16 if you have a pump on the line.

[Sapmanandrobbin]

Where can I find CV spouts for 3/16 drops? Thanks

[DrTimPerkins]

New drops with seasonal spouts actually are cleaner than the CV spouts when I get around to pulling taps.

That is normal. CVs were designed to reduce movement of contaminated sap from used droplines back into the taphole (backflow). They do not protect the dropline from contamination or keep them clean. In general, the majority of backflow is on the order of a few inches (which is why new spouts work fairly well). With some regularity, backflow can also originate from a foot or two away (which is why new drops with new spouts work well). On rare occasions (hopefully), backflow can result in sap moving from 10' or more away (which is why a totally new lateral line system works best).

3/16" lines are a bit different. Because of the small diameter, the same amount of vacuum differential (due to a leak, releaser dump, shutting off pump, etc.) will move sap MUCH further back into the system toward the taphole. New spouts don't seem to be nearly as effective. Droplines help for most occurances of backflow, but not quite as well as with 5/16" lines. We'll be running more experiments this coming spring to see which sanitation strategies are most beneficial (both in terms of sap yield and net profit).

To answer another question, Leader Evaporator now makes a stubby with 3/16" tubing connection to use with CV adapters - either the original or the newer clear polycarb versions.

[n8hutch]

Currently most guys are using a 3/16 tee fitting that has a 5/16 barb on the side that would lead to your drop, a 5/16 drop line and a 5/16 cv spout.

I have been told that a 3/16 cv spout is coming. I think that they would be available from Leader first because I believe they have a patent and or the rights to the patent.

I am going to convert all of my 3/16 Drops this season to 5/16 and I will use a clear polycarbonate seasonal spout, next year I will try the CVs

[Biz]

Forgot to mention, my lines and drops were all 3/16" last year so backflow was more of an issue, as Dr. Tim suggests. I am going with the 3/16 tees with 5/16" drops and CV's next season like Nate mentioned. Tackling the problem from all angles! Will be interested in seeing that the sanitation strategy testing shows.

[DrTimPerkins]

I am going with the 3/16 tees with 5/16" drops and CV's next season like Nate mentioned.

That approach (3/16" tubing with 5/16" drops) should experience reduced sanitation-related taphole drying than 3/16" tubing alone, especially when combined with a CV spout after the first year.

[DocsMapleSyrup]

I'm dredging up this thread because a lot of the information in here is useful and a good place to ask a few related question. I have 3/16 drops on 3/16 natural vac tubing on 50 trees with good slope. I am adding a shurflo 4008 12v pump to this to make it a hybrid system

My tubing and drops are coming up on the 3rd year and look clean. I have changed spouts yearly. This year, I'd like to use a CV to prevent back flow into the tap hole. Is there any benefit of using a CV adapter and stubby? At the end of the year, do you discard these CV spouts adapters or sanitize them? If you sanitize them, how do you do it with the check valve preventing back flushing the lines and drops?

[DrTimPerkins]

Is there any benefit of using a CV adapter and stubby?

The benefit is mainly convenience. Some people prefer to use a CV/stubby combination, others prefer to replace the entire spout. After many years of research, we can see a very very small "stubby" effect (reduction in sap yield), but it is so minor as to be negligible. Historically, people may have chosen one over the other due to the fact that the original CV was black nylon and the original CV spout was clear polycarbonate. Now the CV adapter is available in clear polycarbonate, so that difference is gone.



At the end of the year, do you discard these CV spouts adapters or sanitize them? If you sanitize them, how do you do it with the check valve preventing back flushing the lines and drops?

They are made to be replaced new each year. There has been some work done trying to sanitize them, but generally you can't get them to perform quite as well as new. While you can get them sanitized, small amounts of microbial residue left inside the assembly of used spouts seems to prevent proper seating of the ball during backflow events. rendering them somewhat less effective over time.

[PCFarms]

This year, we installed a new section of bush (a few thousand taps) with 5/16 laterals, and with 3/16th drops (using 5/16 x 3/16th tees on the laterals). The idea is that over the 3 feet of the drop line (we have run the laterals/mains as low as possible, and will tap as high as possible), you might build another inch or two of vacuum to supplement the vacuum from the pump house. I did not consider the issue of backflow from the laterals into the tree due to the reduced diameter of the drop line - this is good point and I will need to carefully consider this in the future. In the first year, there is no bacterial in laterals or in the drops, so we should be ok. In the future, we need to make sure that we use the check valves as our 3/16th drop-lines will be particularly susceptible to the back-flow into the tap.

Are there other reasons to reconsider going with 3/16th drops on 5/16th laterals in the future? Are others out there trying this out as well?

[Mark]

[QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;338523]The benefit is mainly convenience. Some people prefer to use a CV/stubby combination, others prefer to replace the entire spout. After many years of research, we can see a very very small "stubby" effect (reduction in sap yield), but it is so minor as to be negligible. Historically, people may have chosen one over the other due to the fact that the original CV was black nylon and the original CV spout was clear polycarbonate. Now the CV adapter is available in clear polycarbonate, so that difference is gone.

Is it hard to get the polycarbonate off the stubby?

[Russell Lampron]

I starting using the CV adapter with stubby combo and then switched to the CV spout. I don't have the leaks and micro leaks with the spouts than I did with the CV adapter and stubby combo. On a hard freeze the stubby would sometimes get pushed off of the adapter, that can't happen with the spouts.

[markcasper]

After many years of research, we can see a very very small "stubby" effect (reduction in sap yield), but it is so minor as to be negligible. Historically, people may have chosen one over the other due to the fact that the original CV was black nylon and the original CV spout was clear polycarbonate. Now the CV adapter is available in clear polycarbonate, so that difference is gone.




So Tim, are you saying that if you use clear stubby's AND clear CV's you don't get any "stubby" effect as you say? Do they even make clear stubby's? Either I am too dumb, but I don't think I have ever seen any? Leader? Too my knowledge I didn't know they made clear stubby's. Please share if thats not so. Thanks.

[SeanD]

I also switched from the combo to the single, seasonal CV. There are too many factors in my woods to accurately determine if one performance is better than another, but another consideration is the amount of time you are spending at each tree. In years 2 and 3, once the stub is on then you are just going into your woods with a bag of taps, a drill, and a hammer. It's very quick work. With the single-piece CV, you have to carry a tubing tool with you, install it first then you can tap.

It doesn't sound like much, but it does add up - easily doubling my tapping time. Not a deal breaker, but something to plan on. Lastly, a handful of the single-piece CVs break and stay in the tree when I'm pulling them at the end of the season. Again, not a deal breaker. Just something to be aware of.

[DrTimPerkins]

So Tim, are you saying that if you use clear stubby's AND clear CV's you don't get any "stubby" effect as you say? Do they even make clear stubby's? Either I am too dumb, but I don't think I have ever seen any? Leader? Too my knowledge I didn't know they made clear stubby's. Please share if thats not so. Thanks.

Sorry for being unclear -- I will try to clarify.

I don't believe that Leader Evaporator makes a clear polycarbonate stubby, but it's been a few months since I chatted with them, so I can't say for sure. They do now make a CV adapter in polycarbonate along with the original black nylon CV adapter (and the polycarbonate CV spout). To clarify that, since not everyone knows or uses the same terminology, a spout is a single piece with an end that goes into the tree and an end that connects to tubing. An spout adapter or adapterhas an end that goes into the tree, and needs to be paired with a stubby to connect to tubing in order to function. A stubby (or stub spoutconnects to the tubing and a spout adapter to form a complete spout assembly. Typically spouts or spout adapters and other fittings come in polycarbonate (usually clear or lightly-tinted translucent) or nylon (solid black or some other solid color). Some newer style spouts are also being made of a different material. Note that not all stubby and adapter combinations will work together.

After several years of sanitation research at UVM PMRC, we determined that with a black stubby and a black (original) CV adapter, that we could see a very small "used stubby" effect, in that after reusing a stubby for several years, it could cause a very slight reduction in sap yield compared to using a new stubby/CV adapter annually (which is something most people wouldn't do anyway). Again....it was very small, on the order of 1-2%, but it was there. We think it is because the small fingers of the CV adapter are in very close contact with the used stubby, and picking up microbes. Since the CV ball rolls around some during normal use, it was picking up some contamination from the stubby and transferring it back into the taphole. Please don't misunderstand....there was still a HUGE benefit to using the CV adapter in this case, just that it was very slightly less than using a totally new stubby/CV adapter.

[Mark]

The ball in the CV polycarbonate adapter is farther away from the stubby. The black adapter had the ball right in the back that goes into the adapter and is in close contact.

I asked Leader a few years ago if they were going to make a polycarbonate adapter. I was told definitely no because polycarbonate holds so well you would not get it off the adapter.

Then a year later Leader is selling them.

My question is were they full of it or are they hard to get off the stubby?

[BAP]

I used 25 of the polycarbonate CV adapters and 200 of the black CV adapters last year. Previous, I had just used the black CV adapters. I found that the polycarbonate stayed in the trees better after a long period of bitter cold weather but did come off the black stubby a little harder.

[ennismaple]

The ball in the CV polycarbonate adapter is farther away from the stubby. The black adapter had the ball right in the back that goes into the adapter and is in close contact.

I asked Leader a few years ago if they were going to make a polycarbonate adapter. I was told definitely no because polycarbonate holds so well you would not get it off the adapter.

Then a year later Leader is selling them.

My question is were they full of it or are they hard to get off the stubby?

We've used clear polycarbonate adapters on stubbies for about 3 years now when the tubing is less than 2 years old. They are definitely harder to get off the stubby than the black CV's. Maybe 1 in 20 you need to use pliers to get the adapter off the stubby. If your hammer guy has a really heavy hand you sometimes need to cut the stubby off because you can't get them apart - but those are maybe 1 or 2 out of a 1,000 until you get the new guy trained!

The clear poly adapters do seal very well in the taphole. We've trying 350 of the clear CV adapters in one section of woods this spring to see if the extra $0.05 each is worthwhile.

[DrTimPerkins]

The ball in the CV polycarbonate adapter is farther away from the stubby. The black adapter had the ball right in the back that goes into the adapter and is in close contact.

Correct, so any "stubby" effect with a clear polycarbonate CV adapter is probably insignificant. We've not tested it.


I asked Leader a few years ago if they were going to make a polycarbonate adapter. I was told definitely no because polycarbonate holds so well you would not get it off the adapter.

Then a year later Leader is selling them.

Apparently enough people asked for them that they felt they should do it.


My question is were they full of it or are they hard to get off the stubby?

They are more difficult to get apart.

[Snowmad]

I put in a few stubbys with the CV spouts this year on some 2 year old line. I haven't actually tapped yet but I installed some of the stubbys and spouts. I found the stubby difficult to install with my normal spout installation tool. They are too fat to really work well. I don't know if someone has modified a single hand tool to install stubbies but if I were to use them more in the future I would want a better tool. I can see the labor savings in the future though and I like the idea of not loosing an inch or two of drop every year when cutting off the old spout. That being said, I am excited to try the new CV spouts Leader has come out with this year. I was at a meeting this fall and the rep said they have $30,000 invested in making the new CV spout in 3/16. They wanted to see if 3/16 would catch on first before making the tooling. Apparently, it has.

[meadster02]

Has anyone noticed at the end of the year when removing the cv adapter from the stubby how gummed up they seem to be. When I take them off the vacuum seems to increase a lot almost like it was stopping vacuum from getting to the tap hole. I have thought about just using the 7/16 to 5/16 adapter to see if it would stop that. has anyone else tried this and do you think it would decrease sap production

[DrTimPerkins]

Has anyone noticed at the end of the year when removing the cv adapter from the stubby how gummed up they seem to be.

At the end of the season ANY type of spout gums up, and you aren't going to get any sap from those tapholes regardless. By that point you've already gotten the benefit they were designed for. The CV adapter/spout was developed to lessen backflow of sap, thus delaying the natural tree wound response and resultant taphole drying. We can delay the response, but it can't be entirely stopped (and we wouldn't want to).

[markcasper]

At the end of the season ANY type of spout gums up, and you aren't going to get any sap from those tapholes regardless.

Actually Dr., I am not in agreement with "any" spout "gumming" up. On the contrary, I see many cv2's running well after the season has ended. It is amazing to see them running 2 weeks after the season has ended and they are breaking bud. I have used Lappierre clear spouts,( non checkvalve), and would rarely see any of those running even with new drops! So if seeing what i witness is not proof, I don't know what is??? I have never really seen one of those gummed up where it would stop the flow. I'm thinking the clear poly ones to fit the stubbies will have the same effect.

[markcasper]

Sorry for being unclear -- I will try to clarify.

I don't believe that Leader Evaporator makes a clear polycarbonate stubby, but it's been a few months since I chatted with them, so I can't say for sure. They do now make a CV adapter in polycarbonate along with the original black nylon CV adapter (and the polycarbonate CV spout). To clarify that, since not everyone knows or uses the same terminology, a spout is a single piece with an end that goes into the tree and an end that connects to tubing. An spout adapter or adapterhas an end that goes into the tree, and needs to be paired with a stubby to connect to tubing in order to function. A stubby (or stub spoutconnects to the tubing and a spout adapter to form a complete spout assembly. Typically spouts or spout adapters and other fittings come in polycarbonate (usually clear or lightly-tinted translucent) or nylon (solid black or some other solid color). Some newer style spouts are also being made of a different material. Note that not all stubby and adapter combinations will work together.

After several years of sanitation research at UVM PMRC, we determined that with a black stubby and a black (original) CV adapter, that we could see a very small "used stubby" effect, in that after reusing a stubby for several years, it could cause a very slight reduction in sap yield compared to using a new stubby/CV adapter annually (which is something most people wouldn't do anyway). Again....it was very small, on the order of 1-2%, but it was there. We think it is because the small fingers of the CV adapter are in very close contact with the used stubby, and picking up microbes. Since the CV ball rolls around some during normal use, it was picking up some contamination from the stubby and transferring it back into the taphole. Please don't misunderstand....there was still a HUGE benefit to using the CV adapter in this case, just that it was very slightly less than using a totally new stubby/CV adapter.

I have always thought the same thing......where do you draw the line as far as considering bacterial infection? I mean say you have a cv2 and or a clear cv spout with stubby. Since the cv2 is getting sap further down the line and further away from the hole without hitting old plastic, it is my opinion (also what i have witnessed) that these will still keep running the longest and offer the best bacterial protection. The cv new clear spout is still going to be closer to contamination by a stubby (going off the top of my head, may be as much as 2"). So what I am trying to say is the clear straight cv will probably not perform as well as a cv2, regardless of whether the ball got moved closer or farther away from the stubby.

I'm wondering how much the black versus clear difference there is? My strategy is to use the clear ones on the south sides of trees, and the black ones on the north. As well, any ultra early taps will all be clear regardless. It sucked last year, I wanted to use them, Leader advertised them and then was told they were out of stock, not in yet, blah, blah, blah. Disappointed that they were heavily advertised, and at least in Wisconsin, were not here for the season!

[markcasper]

The clear poly adapters do seal very well in the taphole. We've trying 350 of the clear CV adapters in one section of woods this spring to see if the extra $0.05 each is worthwhile.

Actually there is only a .3 cents difference. And your now going to pay .2 cents more for either.

Sucks they figure they can raise them in price, while we producers are lowering the price for our product. If this kind of price gouging keeps up, it will not be good for anyone!!!

[DrTimPerkins]

I wanted to use them, Leader advertised them and then was told they were out of stock, not in yet, blah, blah, blah. Disappointed that they were heavily advertised, and at least in Wisconsin, were not here for the season!

I think they expected them earlier, but for some reason (unknown to me), they didn’t get them out until later. We too got them late. Only were able to get a hundred or so out to test as we had already tapped our woods.

[DocsMapleSyrup]

Thanks for the answered questions, now I have probably a very stupid question. What is a cv2 spout vs a cv1?

[DrTimPerkins]

Thanks for the answered questions, now I have probably a very stupid question. What is a cv2 spout vs a cv1?

CV1 = CV Spout Adapter (requires a stub spout), black, nylon....the original CV
CV2 = CV Spout, one-piece, clear, polycarbonate (no stub spout needed)
CV3 = CV Spout Adapter (requires a stub spout), clear, polycarbonate

[markcasper]

CV1 = CV Spout Adapter (requires a stub spout), black, nylon....the original CV
CV2 = CV Spout, one-piece, clear, polycarbonate (no stub spout needed)
CV3 = CV Spout Adapter (requires a stub spout), clear, polycarbonate

Since the subject is alive.....is there anything happening with the check valve connectors at the mainline entrance? I heard it mentioned a year or two ago and can't seem to find any info. on it. It basically was a built in check valve within a 5/16 connecter designed to aid in stopping sap from flowing backwards in a lateral from the mainline, since that is where the "energy" comes from. I thought when I first heard it, why someone hadn't thought of it sooner? How many times have we all seen sap traveling backwards because of a releaser malfunction, frozen spot in the line, etc.? I believe reading how this one checkvalve at a mainline entrance would cut down on the need for a checkvalve on every spout.

[sapmaple]

I was able to try both clear adapters one with ball and ones without and found you do not want to pound them in the tree to far and their is a circular line on the adapter, tap the stubby up to that line then they come apart decent but further in and they do come apart hard also if the tree is running sap when your tapping they really go together easy so have to be even more careful I'm putting in over 9000 this year so hope I don't regret it when comes time to take apart. That being said Wish Leader would make a polycarbonate stubby
I think they expected them earlier, but for some reason (unknown to me), they didn’t get them out until later. We too got them late. Only were able to get a hundred or so out to test as we had already tapped our woods.

[DocsMapleSyrup]

Thanks for the clarification Dr. Tim! Much appreciated.

[DrTimPerkins]

Grabbed a sample of each of the various types of Leader CV spouts and adapters at the NY Maple Conference yesterday.
17011
Clockwise from top left,
Original CV Spout Adapter = CV1 (requires stub spout), black, nylon, ball near stub connection
Clear CV Spout Adapter = CV3 (requires stub spout), clear, polycarbonate, ball in tip
CV Spout = CV4, clear, polycarbonate with 3/16" tubing fitting, ball in tip
CV Spout = CV2, clear, polycarbonate with 5/16" tubing fitting, ball in tip

Hope that helps to clear up any confusion about what the various styles are.

[DrTimPerkins]

Since the subject is alive.....is there anything happening with the check valve connectors at the mainline entrance?

I think Steve Childs has done some research on this, both back early on when the CV first came out, and then a bit more recently. I did quite a lot of testing of various types of commercial check-valves in-line during the development and testing of the CV spout concept. Most of them created some amount of back-pressure which resulted in some loss of yield. That is why the CV spout/spout adapter incorporates a very lightweight ball for operation rather than something spring-loaded or of a diaphragm-type. Steve may have found something different. There is no question that a properly designed and incorporated CV would reduce back-flow of sap on that lateral line. We actually considered that approach, however you would still get backflow to any trees on that line if you had a leak AFTER the CV, and you would have some small amount of backflow occurring with each freeze cycle, thus the thought was to get them as close to the taphole as possible to prevent both those possibilities. I'd have to go back and look at the patent as granted to be sure, but I believe we tried to incorporate the concept of using of a CV to reduce backflow anywhere in the lateral line/dropline/spout system in the filing. So basically any existing commercial check-valve existing that was not specifically made for maple tubing could be used in that way, but anything specifically developed for the maple industry would fall under our patent.

[markcasper]

Thank-you for the update, Tim! Your a maple News on the net.

[BlueberryHill]

Great info in this thread, thank you! I have drops that are a few years old and there are CV2's still on them that I used last year. I see that Lapierre makes a clear adapter that is 5/16 on both ends. Would these CV2's plug right into that adapter? This seems like a good way to save money (1/2 price) vs buying new CV2's and will also be easier to install since I wont have to cut off the old spouts and crimp on new ones.

The main questions being 1) Will the CV2's fit these adapters and 2) Will this "system" give me similar sap yields? If it's the 1-2% "stubby effect" that was discussed above then that would be worth it. But if I will be missing out on a lot of sap then I'll just do new CV2's again. What do you guys think?

[BlueberryHill]

bumping this to the top to see if anyone knows if this would work??

[ennismaple]

My thought is the balls in the CV2's are probably gummed up a fair bit after 1 season and the loss in sap from not getting good vacuum into the tree would counteract the potential increase. The extra long adapter-to-CV2 would also be prone to separating and losing vacuum, even if it does seal tight.

[BlueberryHill]

Makes sense. Thanks for your reply. I sucked it up and bought some new CV2s instead of going the cheapskate/experimental route.