number of taps on 3/16 with steep slope

[lewichuk19]

Was watching a youtube video on 3/16 tubing setup, (the Krueger Norton sugarhouse video). In the comments on the video, someone states, and i quote.." when using more than 13% gravity, 3/16 sap line can have a maximum of 45 taps per lines instead of 25 and this find came from a study that was made at Cornell university." ....I assume he means 13% slope, not 13% gravity.

My question is:

Does anyone know if this info is correct ???....Going to be setting up a very steep bush in the near future, it would be nice to have less lines with more taps if it is....

[Ultimatetreehugger]

Following this post. I'm in the same situation. I've decided I'm not putting more than 7 trees on a 3/16 sap line giving me 7 to 14 taps on each line.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Most of the 3/16 I run is on steep slopes and I don't think it is good to go over 25 taps. On heavy sap flow days there is a lot of sap coming through the lines. To me the biggest reason would be leak issues. If you have 3 lines with 15 taps and get a chew on one of the 3 lines, you are affecting vacuum to 15 taps. If you have all your eggs in one basket aka 45 taps on one line and get a leak or damage, you are affecting all 45 taps. With the amount of sap coming through a 3/16 line with 45 taps on it also, I would have to believe you are going to hurt production to the last 10 to 20 taps on the bottom part of the line on heavy flow days due to lack of room for sap entry in a high volume line.

[BAP]

I have 5 lines of 3/16” on fairly steep slopes. They have between 20-24 taps each. On a good sap day there is a lot of sap coming out of those lines. I feel if there was more than 25-28 taps on the lines, then on a good sap day I would lose some production from the line not being able to carry enough.

[Sugarbush Ridge]

Was watching a youtube video on 3/16 tubing setup, (the Krueger Norton sugarhouse video). In the comments on the video, someone states, and i quote.." when using more than 13% gravity, 3/16 sap line can have a maximum of 45 taps per lines instead of 25 and this find came from a study that was made at Cornell university." ....I assume he means 13% slope, not 13% gravity.

My question is:

Does anyone know if this info is correct ???....Going to be setting up a very steep bush in the near future, it would be nice to have less lines with more taps if it is....
Please share if anyone finds this study.

[maple flats]

Following this post. I'm in the same situation. I've decided I'm not putting more than 7 trees on a 3/16 sap line giving me 7 to 14 taps on each line.
I believe I read about a study that found it is not good to have too few taps on 3/16 either, 7 is likely too few to get good gravity generated vacuum, 14 might be near the lower suggested limit and somewhere around 30 is considered maximum. When you have too few you don't get enough sap in the line many times to generate the desired vacuum.

[buckeye gold]

Is this the one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQX9L1KnBh8

[lewichuk19]

that is the video yes. the first comment in the comment section is what im talking about.

[BAP]

You are better off to follow the recommendations of the people that researched and developed the 3/16" than a comment on a YouTube video. Here is the link to an article written by Tim Wilmot. Lots of good information from someone who knows.
http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/3-16%20Tubing%20-%20Wilmot%20-%20Maple%20News%20Dec%202014a.pdf

[maple flats]

I read Tim Wilmot's piece, linked from The Maple News above. Well, I guess I've been corrected, 7 taps should be fine.

[Ultimatetreehugger]

We are all learning every day. Thanks everyone.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I would agree that I would go with what the research says. I'm not the expert but spend a lot of time dealing with it and have a lot of customers that use it. Tim Wilmot and I talk from time to time and he is in agreement with 25 taps is the best max per line. We continue experimenting with different things and there will be a grant funded research project with 3/16 this coming season in WV along with different field things.

I know there has been concern about blockage but I have a bunch that has been 3 seasons of production and the last 2 seasons with WAY ABOVE average temps and tubing looks about as good as when it was installed over 3 years ago.

[dbeitz1891]

There have been multiple studies done on how many "inferences" and flow a 3/16ths line can handle. One study was done at a 12% slope and the flow vs T's maximum came up around 48. Other studies suggest 52. That would be on a maximum flow day, how many runs do you have like that a year? Maybe 3?

I have nearly 2,000 on 3/16ths and some of my lateral are 1000-1200 feet long with as many as 55 taps on them. I somewhat justify that with my slope being much greater than 12%.

[BAP]

There have been multiple studies done on how many "inferences" and flow a 3/16ths line can handle. One study was done at a 12% slope and the flow vs T's maximum came up around 48. Other studies suggest 52. That would be on a maximum flow day, how many runs do you have like that a year? Maybe 3?

I have nearly 2,000 on 3/16ths and some of my lateral are 1000-1200 feet long with as many as 55 taps on them. I somewhat justify that with my slope being much greater than 12%.
Where are you getting your “multiple studies “ showing 50+/- taps on 3/16”?

[n8hutch]

One Important thing to consider with a 3/16 tubing setup is how many years you are going to use the tubing. The first year is great no arguments here, but the second year you reall ought to cut out any sections that appears to have heavy growth in the line because I can guarantee that the first hard freeze and subsequent thaw that bacterial growth will plug at the first tee.

I've got some 3/16 that has been used 3 seasons and it's going on it's 4th it definitely has more maintenance related issues than 5/16. So I think it's a good practice as others have suggested to have more lateral lines with 20 taps per , rather than laterals with 45 to 50 taps.

[Bucket Head]

I have not read or viewed any of the above mentioned links so this may have been seen or read by now, but Tim Wilmot did a presentation at the V.V.S. Maple Conference a year or two ago and he said he had a maximum of 37 taps on a 3/16 line with no adverse effects. He only deterred folks from that high of number because of the time it took to walk that line checking for leaks.

It probably goes without saying but a line like that would have to be on a pretty good slope and it would absolutely have to have the required amount of drop after the last tap.

[DrTimPerkins]

The first year is great no arguments here, but the second year you reall ought to cut out any sections that appears to have heavy growth in the line because I can guarantee that the first hard freeze and subsequent thaw that bacterial growth will plug at the first tee.

With 3/16" tubing it is also recommended that lines be flushed with a sanitizing solution at the end of the sap flow season, and then rinsed or a small amount of sap allowed to run on the ground (to flush out the sanitizer) to reduce microbial build-up. How best to manage age/sanitation-related losses in yield in 3/16" tubing (which appears to be more severe than in 5/16" tubing) is certainly a topic we anticipate doing more research on.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

There are 5 ways of doing things in the maple industry, so many times someone is not wrong it's just how they choose to do things:

1. Won't work
2. Will work
3. Works good
4. Works better
5. Works best

I think most strive to number 5 and most of the research is also, but there are others in each category.

[DrTimPerkins]

There are 5 ways of doing things in the maple industry, so many times someone is not wrong it's just how they choose to do things:

Nice. :D

I can't tell you how many times we've explained #1 (won't work) to folks....often repeatedly (oftentimes year-after-year to the same folks) or they go ahead and do it anyway and find out that it doesn't work and call to ask us why and how to make it work (can't). Worse still is when they contact each of us here at UVM PMRC separately, then, not hearing the answer they want, move on to our colleagues in UVM Maple Extension or other institutions to try to get the answer they want (we call it "answer fishing"). Rather annoying. The last is...."How do I do it the best/right way without spending any money?"

There's at least one other way of doing things to add to the list..... Plan it to death (or talk it to death), but never actually do it.

[Ultimatetreehugger]

What is the most recommended taps on 3/16, good slope, and added vacuum?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I think 5 taps would be minimum and shoot for 25 taps as a maximum.

[Maplewalnut]

I think 5 taps would be minimum and shoot for 25 taps as a maximum.

New to the 3/16ths game...basic question unless I am overthinking it...wouldn't the minimum number of taps directly correspond with the length of the lateral? For optimal vacuum doesn't the line have to be full of sap? so a shorter lateral will fill faster with more taps and achieve vacuum sooner than say a lateral with half the taps and the same distance. Theoretically the minimum taps for a 500ft line may be different than a 250ft line.

[DrTimPerkins]

New to the 3/16ths game...basic question unless I am overthinking it...wouldn't the minimum number of taps directly correspond with the length of the lateral?

Natural vacuum in a 3/16" line is generated by the WEIGHT of the sap pulling on air/liquid in the tubing to create a vacuum. This is created by a difference in height (elevation) between the bottom of the line (where it empties into a tank or a mainline) and the top of the line (at the taps). Length is not critical except for the need to achieve maximum amount of drop. A 30' tubing line straight down will generate the same vacuum as a 500' length of tubing on a slope that has the bottom 30' lower than the top. Actually, the 500' line might be a tad less vacuum due to line friction, but that is typically ignored. This only happens because of the cohesive (stickiness) of water molecules and the capillarity of the tubing (attraction of water to tubing) at small diameters. Those are necessary conditions for the phenomenon to happen, but aren't the real driving force.

[dbeitz1891]

Where are you getting your “multiple studies “ showing 50+/- taps on 3/16”?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.nysmaple.com/files/The%2520Pipeline/PipelineSummer2015-FINAL.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwitl6v-n__WAhXG4IMKHcfrBJ0QFggvMAE&usg=AOvVaw3jZeYUyg4dsaL0Ak8fc2hp

Having trouble getting the link because it's a PDF but it's on pages 1 and 4. I've had several conversations with Steve on the subject. Notice it says 35 foot of drop at a 13% slope, and that if you have more slope or drop than the numbers are subject to change. One could infer if you had a steeper slope and more drop it would accept more flow. My apologies for the number 52, the number reported is 45. This is also at a .2 gph flow from each tap.

I'm not saying to run above on every single lateral but if you can grab a few more taps with running another 1,000 foot lateral I would go ahead. The amount of sap gained throughout the year, I would think, out weighs the amount possibly lost on maximum flow days.

Note: We walk our lines daily for leaks and maintenance.

[Road's End]

We had 320 taps last year on gravity, 3/16" line. I think 35 was the highest tap count for one line? (+/-1) Later this fall we are expanding to around 600 taps and we are also planning to split the lines with more than 20-25 taps. We can continue expanding uphill on most of the lines so we will end the first run at about 20ish taps then run a new line to hook the upper half to the mainline. We feel we could get a better flow if we stayed closer to 20-25 taps per line rather than 30-35+. Just personal opinion though, I guess next spring will be the test.

[WhistlePig]

It probably goes without saying but a line like that would have to be on a pretty good slope and it would absolutely have to have the required amount of drop after the last tap.

I have wondered about this a lot. Does it hurt the overall performance of a line of taps, to tap a tree right above or next to the collection line? I can understand that the tree right next to the line wont have great vacuum, but what about the rest of the line? I don't want to ignore that band of trees right above the collection line. In my case, I have several roughly parallel collection lines running at an upwards slope across the face of the mountain. What I have started doing is extending the 3/16" lines from a lower parallel up over the next collection line up, to tap the first 50'-75' of trees above the next collection line up. It makes it even a bit more fun to traverse the collection lines on those steep slopes!

[ender]

Just quick question what would happen if you were to pump your tubing full of permeate and cap it till fall frost when done with your spring season?

[WhistlePig]

Hello, another quick question, How do I estimate the elevation above the collection line. What is a simple in the field method for finding out when i am a certain feet of elevation higher than the line.