RO process tanks

[Pete S]

First off I would like to thank all of you that responded to my "gasoline or electric" question regarding my RO purchase.

Well we "pulled the proverbial trigger" on a Deer Run 125 electric model, should arrive in November.

Would any of you have photos/diagrams/schematics of a piping layout and what I should have for a set of tanks for this process?

As our shack is heated solely with a wood cook stove and the heat from the evaporator and you can see daylight through may of the boards, I will be constructing a small enclosure we can keep warm with a bulb'r two as recommended.

Thanks in advance!

Pete

[maple flats]

A small RO room is fine. It can be heated with 2 light bulbs @ 100 watts each, but I suggest 3. I started with 1, then added one more both at 100 watts each incandescent, when I found that 100 watts was not enough. Then one day I checked and one bulb had blown, that was when I added a third. I put them on a low temperature range line voltage thermostat. I kept it set at about 40F. I still have that in place as insurance but I added a wall mount 8000 BTU propane heater which is on a low temp t-stat too. My propane runs off a bulk tank that runs all propane items in the sugarhouse. I keep the propane set at 42F and in case that fails the 3 light bulbs are still at 40F. If that's all you will have in there, 3'x5.5' x6' high will do, but it would be tight. The 125 from deer run will come on a frame with large casters on it. There will be a mounted wash tank, 1 membrane @ 4x40", a low pressure feed pump and a high pressure pump. You will need a 3/4" concentrate hose to run to the head tank, that can be 3/4" braid reinforced flexible pipe. then you need a 1" supply hose to supply the feed pump from your sap tank and a potable water garden hose to run permeate to the permeate tank. For permeate storage you want at least 250 gal storage, any excess can just be run to drain. The head tank depends on how much concentrate you want max. On my 250 RO I originally had a 415 gal milk tank for concentrate on the north side of the sugarhouse on a platform to feed the evaporator. I later got a 200 gal and set that up there and moved the 415 to the ground for sap storage. then 2 years ago, I got a 150 gal tank and moved the 200 to ground for sap too. Those hoses or pipes can be PVC or milk line hose. If the sap in hose or pipe is where it could freeze, design it to drain completely so when yo get the next batch of sap you aren't faced with frozen lines. The concentrate line and the supply line will both have a cam lock fitting on the RO, the permeate is just garden hose thread. Then you will need a 15A 240V circuit to run it, wait for the RO to add the receptacle so you get it right.
That RO will be able to add 1 more membrane when you grow because it has the same motor and pumps as the 250 RO's, just but another membrane, canister and the high pressure lines and you can double the flow. A 125 or a 250 are numbered to indicate the sap flow in gal./hr at about 37-38F. As the temp rises or falls the flow is going to change a little. You made a good choice for a first RO with up to maybe 400 taps or so.
I have my plumbing set up so I run concentrate into the head tank, if that runs over, an overflow line goes back to the sap tank (but that has never happened. Then between the head tank and the evaporator, I have a Tee and one leg goes back and tee's into the sap supply line to the RO. Each line has a valve except the concentrate line. When I want to RO a second pass, I just close the sap supply valve and open the recirculate valve and instantly I an running concentrate from the head tank thru the RO and removing more permeate. With 2% sap I usually get to 7-8% concentrate, then if I recirculate it can go to 10-12 or even 14% sugar. The Deer run RO's will not go over 15% without plugging the membrane necessitating a permeate rinse, higher priced RO's that run at higher pressures can get higher concentrations.
Send me a PM with your email address and I'll email you back a copy of the RO manual to help you get familiar with it.

[christopherh]

My feed tank to the RO sits outside and is slightly above the RO feed connection. I use 1 inch black water pipe for plumbing with camloc connections. From the feed tank to the RO is where I have a meter installed to keep track of sap processed.
The permeate tank is built on a shelf slightly heigher than the RO unit so it can gravity drain back to the RO when flushing the unit.
The concentrate tank is installed on another shelf near the peak of my building to feed the evaporator.

I roll mine out of the closet when using and all my hook ups are with flexible line and cam locks. I heat the insulated RO closet with a sealed oil electric heater. Keeps it at 40 to 45 degrees.
I'm sure you'll enjoy the new RO! Good luck!

[Super Sapper]

I just sent my deposit on an electric 250 and am planning to run it the same as Dave described. Does anyone use a low pressure feed pump on the Deer Run RO?

[maple flats]

The Deer Run RO has it's own low pressure feed pump, but if you have lots of line between the sap tank and the RO an aux. pump helps especially if you have several fittings for possible leaks. This is what I use http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200311411_200311411?cm_mmc=Bing-pla&utm_source=Bing_PLA&utm_medium=Water%20Pumps%20%3E%20Booster%20%2B%20S prinkler%20Pumps&utm_campaign=Wayne&utm_content=109258
I have it connected in the feed line between the sap tanks and the RO. I just open the valves and if I hear sap flowing into the pump I then turn it on, if no flow, I open the priming port and fill it with permeate. The pump is self priming as long as the pump head is full of water or sap. Once I've been running the RO a few minutes I just shut off the switch on the pump and let the RO feed pump do it all. If I have lots of sap to process I often leave this pump on because it helps get a few gallons more processed per hour but not by much. Electricity at my sugarhouse is from 2 sources, 1 is the grid and the other is from 6,320 watts of solar. Most of the year I make more power than I use and the excess goes to my home account, during maple season I get bills like $2.35 and $4.41 for those months. I don't thus pay much for the power that pump may use. The pump has 1" in and out fittings, I put 1" SS cam lock fittings there and at the top one I have a tee facing up with a removable cap for priming if needed. Since the pump sets lower than the sap tanks I rarely need to prime it, but I do need to loosen the top cap to let air out to get the pump full, then I just close that cap and turn the switch on. It gives me about 80 PSI on my inlet gauge on the RO. I did run without this pump for about 3 years before adding it. It just makes start up faster and easier.
I also use this pump to wash my tanks using permeate. I have a 1.5" line feeding from the sap tanks to the pump, but just before the pump it reduces to 1". In the line feeding the pump I have tees , one for sap, one for recirculate (from the head tank) and one for permeate, each source has a ball valve. When I use the pump to wash a tank, I put a reducer fitting in the outlet fitting on the pump, and it reduces to a 5/16 line with a valve. that cleans a SS tank very well if done when still wet, if it dries out I then use a pressure washer. A pressure washer is seldom needed. I use a milk tank cleaning broom and the 5/16 spray and it comes clean quickly.
The pump regular price is $199 but it goes on sale for $179 or $169 a couple of times each year, just wait til a sale.

[Super Sapper]

I have the same pump and use it to unload the sap from my truck. I also used it to fill my head tank. My tank is right outside the wall but the RO will probably be on the other side of the sugar house so I will probably use it to pump up and around evaporator instead of having a hose on the floor that gets in the way. I plan on getting a gas pump to load sap at the bush and unload to decrease that time as well so this pump will have a use now.

[SeanD]

I have mine set up similar to christopherh. Tanks are outside above the level of the RO and that provides plenty of pressure to feed the RO right to empty. All my lines are flexible 1" lines with cam locks. This way I can quickly move things around and wash the lines out easily.

I made an insulated closet space for the RO in the sugar house and made the door big enough that I can operate the RO without needing to pull it out of the enclosure. I also use an oil-filled radiator to heat the closet. It's more energy efficient and reliable than light bulbs if you are on the grid.

I strongly recommend that you spend $20-$30 for a wireless outdoor thermometer to keep in the heated space. Then keep the receiver where you will see it before going to bed and when you wake up. During a cold snap you will need to go out and adjust the radiator to maintain a temp above 35. Later in the season, you'll want to go turn it down so it is not warming up to 60 in there.

christopherh, awesome avatar. Did you take that with a drone?

[christopherh]

Sean, yes that was taken with my brothers drone. Pretty fun machines. Good point on the thermometer. I have a wired one and the display sits outside the closet.

[VT_K9]

We currently pump from the woods to a 260 gallon SS tank, which will be upgraded to a 787 gallon tank with our planned expansion. Then we draw from the 260 and run it through the RO. We send the concentrate to a 160 gallon SS tank and the permeate to a 275 gallon cube. The 160 will always hold the half of the 260 tank, therefore never having a concern about over flowing. Then we draw from the 160 gallon tank. The Concentrate goes to a 100 gallon tank (again no over flow) which is mounted above the evaporator for a gravity feed. The permeate goes to the permeate tank. With 260 gallons we would have about 75 gallons concentrate and 185 gallons permeate, not enough to clean the RO (we have a 250 gph RO), but we usually end up with about 350 per day. That is just enough, especially when we save our permeate left over from previous boils. Early in the season we may wait two days when it is cooler before we boil. For use, now, 700 gallons can be process in about 7 hours total and that includes clean up at the end of the day.

Mike

If you want some pics send me your e-mail and I will get them off to you.

[Pete S]

Mike,
That would be great, and thank you to all for your responses. This whole thing has me in a bit of a tizzy as I am more visual and it will be a great help when ours arrives mid November.

I THOUGHT I had subscribed to this but apparently not. Went in and did my best to subscribe but we'll see.

Again thanks! Can't wait to get the feel for this and make some syrup w/o all the hours and firewood.

[VT_K9]

1671416715

Here are two photos of our system.

The photo on the right shows the receiving tank from the woods. It is the tank one the right and holds 260 gallons. The RO draws from this tank and puts the concentrate into the tank the RO is sitting on. This tank is 160 gallons. The permeate is going into the fitting just above the RO on the left wall. In the other room we have two 275 tote tanks for permeate. In this case the concentrate is being put into the fitting on the right wall. This is a PVC pipe leading to an elevated 100 gallon tank which feeds the evaporator.

The second photo shows the evaporator with the feed tank behind and above it. In the upper right portion you can see the white PVC pipe which feeds the tank from the RO.

This system allows us to run many combinations of concentrate. Normally we run the sap through the RO and into the tank below it. Then we run it a second time to the feed tank. As the sugar content drops we can recirculate it in the tank below the RO before pushing it up to the feed tank.

If you need and thing specific for images or measurements let me know. This year we are going to knock out the wall being the two tanks and install a 788 gallon tank in place of the 260 gallon tank. This is in preparation for our expanded taps, adding 400 to have 800 taps.

Mike