New to tubing with some questions

[SSS2017]

Hi all and thank you in advance... and sorry in advance for the long post.

So I read nearly every thread over 15 pages so far that somewhat relates to me but like everybody else I still have unanswered newbie questions.

So as a background I'm definitely a hobbyist with a full time job, a wife and 2 kids (9&11). I have 7.5 acres of land and about 3 acres of woods with minimal slope and some low lying wetlands in the woods. Last year I tapped 50 trees with 5/16th and buckets (mostly all reds). I had some success averaging about 30 gallons of sap a week. So going into this coming season I wanted to get better and try to get more sap (hoping for around 75-100 a week). I added onto my Shack to make room for a 275 oil tank arch that will accommodate a 2x4 flat pan (an upgrade from my 20"x20" flat pan on my 55 gallon burner). I've also cleared my woods of all overgrowth barberries and vines for the last week and a half 😳. The last few days I've spent out there with a transit planning my runs.

Here are my problems/questions:

I've found on my 1st run of 150 feet I have 12' of elevation change. I'd have 16 trees on that run. On my 2nd run with 9 trees I have 3' elevation change over 130' coming in the direction of run #1. Both of those runs would be collection point number one.

Run #3 I have 7' of elevation change over 140' and I'd have 16 trees on that run dumping into collection point number two.

On the other side of my property I have run number 4 with 14 trees and 3' of elevation change over 145'. North of that I have run #5 with 8 trees and 3' of elevation change Over 90'. Both of these runs would be collection point number 3.

This is the absolute best case scenario I could come up with after surveying for 2 days. With the land that I have, where there are several low lying areas and no better elevation than what I have unless I tap higher in the trees, this is best case scenario. I figured worst case scenario I have only 3 collection point vs. 50+.

What would be recommendations for lines, 3/16th or 5/16 based on all of the info above? I had the idea in my head of 3/16th zig zagging from tree to tree(just a hobbyist), but I'm not sure 3/16 will be counterproductive or not based on my elevation issues?

Any help or ideas would be so helpful... my wife has been on my back about being on my phone for hours and days. She doesn't believe me when I tell her I'm on a maple forum reading about collecting sap😂

I'm not sure pumps would be a possibility because they'd have to be run on a 12v in the elements with solar because I don't have power back in my woods.

Again, I appreciate any feedback... I'd take calls 4846958381 or visitors to 18038 👍🏼 for some hot dogs, burgers and beer, haha.

In all seriousness though, I really appreciate this place and how much information I have gathered over the past year reading!

Thank you so much!

Mick

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

With the limited fall you have available, you need to stick to 5/16. Slope will be a big issue for you and keeping lines tight with no sag will be your only option.

[maple flats]

I agree, 5/16 is called for when the slope is that limited. However, I would suggest you try tapping a foot or 2 higher on the far end.
Another approach that could gain a nice increase is to put in some 12V vacuum (or even run a cord out to run 120V) if you can fit it in your budget. A diaphragm pump can increase the flow, some people get close to double the sap if you keep the leaks in check. A diaphragm pump needs no releaser and it can both pull sap/air and push both. Study threads on those neat little pumps. You might even be able to combine 2 collection points utilizing one pump and push the sap to your sugarhouse or to another collection point. Those pumps however do not do well for sap ladders.

[Ultimatetreehugger]

I ran 50 taps on a 12v shurflo pump ($80) last year and 3/16 tubing. On my best run i collected close to 150 gallons after my pump ran all night. My average was 50 to 75 gallons a day, less on slow days. Hope this is helpful.

[SSS2017]

So I guess I'm going 5-16 then. How much difference can I expect on 5/16 vs buckets, say if I averaged 30 gallons a week on buckets?

Before I start thinking about 12v batteries and pumps and trickle chargers or solar($$$) I'd like to have an idea what I can expect on 5-/16 gravity lines vs. buckets.

Thanks for the responses guys!

[SSS2017]

Running an extension cord is out of question because I have about 800' to go from the house and I'd need a pump on the far left and on the far right of the woods because of my terrain if I were to do pumps.

[DrTimPerkins]

How much difference can I expect on 5/16 vs buckets, say if I averaged 30 gallons a week on buckets?

Assuming you were using good sanitation practices, you'd expect to get about the same with buckets and 5/16" gravity tubing assuming your layout was good and you did have some minimal amount of slope to allow drainage. DO NOT VENT THE LINES. In this case (low/no slope), you'd end up with less sap with 3/16" tubing due to backpressure in the lines.

[SSS2017]

Assuming you were using good sanitation practices, you'd expect to get about the same with buckets and 5/16" gravity tubing assuming your layout was good and you did have some minimal amount of slope to allow drainage. DO NOT VENT THE LINES. In this case (low/no slope), you'd end up with less sap with 3/16" tubing due to backpressure in the lines.

Thanks Dr. Tim. So going to 5/16 lines will net me the same amount of sap as last year as I did on buckets unless I add pumps?

When you say DO NOT VENT THE LINES I'm assuming you mean don't leave the high end of the lines open? Add a gauge or cap the end lines?

Thank you again

[maple flats]

Correct, never let air into the lines to drain sap. That contaminates inside the tubing and gets micro organisms growing faster, which then reduce the sap flow from the tap hole.

[SSS2017]

Correct, never let air into the lines to drain sap. That contaminates inside the tubing and gets micro organisms growing faster, which then reduce the sap flow from the tap hole.

Thanks Dave. That's what I figured in all my reading this far.

I really wanted to avoid pumps but now... 😳

How many taps can go on a 5/16 line with a pump?

[SSS2017]

So I'm thinking here about my situation and I may be able to run all the trees on the left side of my property right to a collection point by my house. I'd have a long run through the yard with nothing on it but I can do some temporary wood supports in the yard. I may even have enough for gravity. How much elevation change should there be to run 3/16th gravity?

I'll go out in a bit with a transit and measuring wheel but I'm thinking I'll have at least 600' of line and maybe 19-25' of elevation change from the back of my woods to the back corner of my house. I could have approximately 40 trees on that line.

In the picture behind the playset, approximately 50' in that corner of the woods would be my last tree. I can also see the grade change going up from the house to the woods.

Ahhh, that maple poem is ringing in my head right now😂16636

[maple flats]

Ideally 30' drop after your last tap on 3/16 BUT even 10' gives you natural vacuum. What is the drop across the yard from last tree to your collection point? Remember, now a diaphragm pump can help too.
With 5/16 you are best (with vacuum) to have 5 taps /line, never more than 10 AND the laterals should not be over 100' long, less is even better. With 3/16 the numbers change radically. As long as the part after the last tap has a drop, you can run lines 1200-1500' or even more (I'm not sure, as long as you have drop that there is a maximum, but there might be, and you can put easily 25 taps on a line, in fact at one time 37 was the stated max, however I had one this past season that had 41 taps and was 1450' long. At the top my slope was minimal, but after it started down hill, I had a 60' drop, but with taps on the way down. I think on that particular line I had about 12' drop below the lowest tap. I also had 18-19" vacuum on the lines that the 3/16 tied into. I had 2 vacuum gauges on that line, the end tree (uphill) had 28-29" depending on the barometric pressure, the lowest tap had 26-27" vacuum. This being said, I plan to split that line in 2 for 2018, I think I'll get more sap.
Looking at the yard picture, if you come down that slope, then run the 3/16 into a manifold going into a diaphragm pump you should do well. Now you could run a 120V pump rather than a 12V. If you go that plan, run the 3/16 all the way down, do not tie into a mainline at the top (unless you have a good vacuum pump and a releaser). The long slope will generate vacuum.
In the woods, if you are going to finish with a long slope downhill, you can even get away with some ups and downs in the woods. While not ideal, it still works well, with 5/16 you really hurt flow big time if you have a low spot.
In my first year with 3/16 I had a big limb fall on my 3/16 line, when I discovered it I just had to watch the flow for several minutes, I stood there watching the sap/gas/sap/gas etc (gas is really carbon dioxide) flow from above, then down in a small depression (maybe 7-8' drop), then under the branch and then the marching column flowed back up to the next tap past that low spot and then proceeded down hill. Of course, my drop after that next tap had good drop, at least 40'.

[SSS2017]

Ok so I'm done measuring and surveying everything on that left side of my property and woods. From the back of the woods at my starter tree, to the front of my woods at my end tree it is 350' long and I have 6' 6" of elevation change. I have 35 trees for sure I can tap and I can add 5 more that are in the visinity that are right at 10" in diameter. I can maintain proper pitch if I keep the lines tight from tree to tree and if I tap my first tree at 58".

From there, I'd have 370' of line with no taps on it running downhill with 7'10" of pitch to my collection point on the north side of my house. I'd also have power there as well if I'd still need to run a pump. I am an absolute needy to pumps and lines so I'd have to read up on them.

[SSS2017]

I should have mentioned in the total run of 720' I have a total of 14'4" of drop/elevation change in my favor

[n8hutch]

Mick you are going to want to commit to either 5/16 or 3/16, I can all but guarantee you that the 3/16 will not work well in your situation w/o a vacuum pump of some sort. So if you don't want to run a vacuum pump this year you are probably best going with the 5/16 , then if you decide to add vaccum you can and it will still work for you.

But if you start with the 3/16 you are going to need a pump, it will not work like you hoped with only 7' of Drop after the last tap w/of a pump.

I have read that the 110 volt surflo pumps are not as reliable as the 12 volt version's so if you go the shurflo route you may be better off to go with a 12 volt and buy or use a battery you have kicking around and a trickle charger. Good luck hope you get lots of sap.

[SSS2017]

Mick you are going to want to commit to either 5/16 or 3/16, I can all but guarantee you that the 3/16 will not work well in your situation w/o a vacuum pump of some sort. So if you don't want to run a vacuum pump this year you are probably best going with the 5/16 , then if you decide to add vaccum you can and it will still work for you.

But if you start with the 3/16 you are going to need a pump, it will not work like you hoped with only 7' of Drop after the last tap w/of a pump.

I have read that the 110 volt surflo pumps are not as reliable as the 12 volt version's so if you go the shurflo route you may be better off to go with a 12 volt and buy or use a battery you have kicking around and a trickle charger. Good luck hope you get lots of sap.

The more I think about it, I'm pretty certain I'm going with a pump. What kind do I need... good question? I'll take any suggestions for my layout. Up till yesterday all the research I've done is on gravity, so I've got to start more research.

On that note, if I'm going with a pump do you guys think 5/16 over 3/16? Any specific brand over the other for running tree to tree and keeping it taunt? I still havn't decided if I run 800' of line to my house with power at the porch or just run it to the end of the woods on 12v. It would be more convenient though to be able to walk out my back door though and check on the sap so I'm kinda leaning running it to my house.

Thank you again, this place is awesome.

[Mitchell tapper.]

I use 3/16 on 30 taps. The taps are divided between 2 runs with about 15' drop from the last tap all feeding into one diaphragm pump. One run has to climb over a small hill with no problem. The pump is a small diaphragm pump like they use in soda machines. Look up lunch box releaser. The pump runs off air. Fairly low press about 30psi I feed the air to the pump which is about 80 feet from my compressor in the garage using 3/16 sap line. I suspect you could go any distance you wanted. I adjust the pressure so the pump cycles to keep up with sap flow and have 25 plus on the vacuum gage. In southern Indiana with only 30 taps the pump is a must I feel. I have never compared 3/16 to 5/16 so I can't say which is best for you.

[Super Sapper]

If you are going with a pump I highly recommend using 3/16. I have found that you do not need to be as concerned with slope as you do with 5/16. I have 95 taps on one pump and 150 on the other in the same woods with some 3/4" main and now all 3/16 lats. I have some 3/16 lines with about 20 taps on level areas and only lose 1 to 2 psi at the end. I just run the 3/16 from tree to tree and it goes up and down appr. 3 feet through the run. I have three 12 volt 2088 shurflo pumps with 3 years of use and have not had any problems so far with them. During runs last year I was getting 24 to 25 inches of vacuum with them. On one of my better runs last year I got 2.3 gallons of sap on the pumps and 1 gallon per tap on the bags in that same woods.

[maple flats]

58" tap height? You're over thinking this way too much. 5' tap height is ok, higher than typical but certainly ok. I'm not up on which diaphragm pumps are best, but I have a 3.3 GPM 120V one to run my tankless hot water heater in the sugarhouse (and my bourbon barrel aged maple syrup barrel misting system). It however only runs when I open the hot water valve or 2x a day for 1 minute to run that misting system to keep the barrels damp (cold water/evaporative cooling). My only other diaphragm pumps are on my filter press (air powered) and in my 2 campers (12v).

[Biz]

I concur with Super Sapper. 3/16" tubing is more tolerant of sags. I have a run of 3/16" tubing (no mainline) in a remote section of woods on a Shurflo 4008 12 volt diaphragm pump with battery and solar charger. It is about 600' long, the first half has not much drop and a lot of sags, second half has maybe 15' of drop. About 35 taps. Had a small run 6-8 taps tee'd in too. Ran extremely well and I consistently got 27+" of vacuum everywhere. I could have gotten away with gravity but would have probably gotten half the sap.

Dave


If you are going with a pump I highly recommend using 3/16. I have found that you do not need to be as concerned with slope as you do with 5/16. I have 95 taps on one pump and 150 on the other in the same woods with some 3/4" main and now all 3/16 lats. I have some 3/16 lines with about 20 taps on level areas and only lose 1 to 2 psi at the end. I just run the 3/16 from tree to tree and it goes up and down appr. 3 feet through the run. I have three 12 volt 2088 shurflo pumps with 3 years of use and have not had any problems so far with them. During runs last year I was getting 24 to 25 inches of vacuum with them. On one of my better runs last year I got 2.3 gallons of sap on the pumps and 1 gallon per tap on the bags in that same woods.

[SSS2017]

Thanks guys. That's some great information! I just have to do a lot of research on pumps to wrap my head around it better.

For now from what I gather is I'm going 3/16th lines with 5/16th drops? I think 5/16th drops is what I used for my buckets last year.

Then I need to figure out if I'm going to run the extra 350' to my back porch to pump from there with power, or if I'm just going to run in my woods and go 12v with a solar panel or bring the battery in every night and put it on a trickle charger.

I can't believe how overwhelming this hobby has become in such a short amount of time. Like anything though, once you get your feet wet it's easier after that.

[whity]

Maybe I lost it in reading. Are you going to run over 700' of 5/16 tubing? Is there a main line involved? If it was up to me, I would skip the last 370' of tubing and make a collection area there. Use the $$ you would spend on Main line/tubing and tension wire and supports for an extra battery. I would use a Shurflo 4048. We have one with 120 taps on it. We built ours with a thermostat and mechanical ball valve all on 12v

[SSS2017]

Maybe I lost it in reading. Are you going to run over 700' of 5/16 tubing? Is there a main line involved? If it was up to me, I would skip the last 370' of tubing and make a collection area there. Use the $$ you would spend on Main line/tubing and tension wire and supports for an extra battery. I would use a Shurflo 4048. We have one with 120 taps on it. We built ours with a thermostat and mechanical ball valve all on 12v

My plan now is to run from the back to the front one 3/16 line zig zagged from tree to tree down grade on vacuum with the with the vacuum on my porch to the collection point just a few feet past that off my porch. By running that extra 375' to the porch I get another 7' of elevation change in my favor.

I just measured everything from tree to tree and it would be 1175' of line. 1000' lengths you can get for $60.

[lewichuk19]

Just curious if anyone in this situation (limited elevation drop) has tried digging a hole and placing your collection tank in it. Best case would be to construct a small 'bunker' below ground, but even an open hole should work. I have this problem in part of my bush. My plan is to borrow my buddies mini excavator and dig a good 10' deep hole. Its only gonna cost me a 12 pack of beer to gain 10' in drop...Anyone see a problem with this???

[Maple Man 85]

Just curious if anyone in this situation (limited elevation drop) has tried digging a hole and placing your collection tank in it. Best case would be to construct a small 'bunker' below ground, but even an open hole should work. I have this problem in part of my bush. My plan is to borrow my buddies mini excavator and dig a good 10' deep hole. Its only gonna cost me a 12 pack of beer to gain 10' in drop...Anyone see a problem with this???
Nope, as long as you can pump it out of the tank and still have the ability to clean it.

[SSS2017]

So I should not have a problem running 1000' of 3/16 and 35 taps with a pump correct? I really like mountain maples sap sucker for my application!

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Just curious if anyone in this situation (limited elevation drop) has tried digging a hole and placing your collection tank in it. Best case would be to construct a small 'bunker' below ground, but even an open hole should work. I have this problem in part of my bush. My plan is to borrow my buddies mini excavator and dig a good 10' deep hole. Its only gonna cost me a 12 pack of beer to gain 10' in drop...Anyone see a problem with this???

I have dug out holes for my tanks to increase the drop. How is the drainage from the area? A hole full of water will float your tank.

[maple flats]

While I have one line with 41 taps, I suspect on the best flow days I may be losing some potential. Rather than 35 taps, I'd suggest you go 2 lines rather than 1. I'm going to split my one with 41, I think my next highest is only 31 or 32 taps. I had a few with over 35 2 seasons ago, I got all but that one split for this past season.

[SSS2017]

While I have one line with 41 taps, I suspect on the best flow days I may be losing some potential. Rather than 35 taps, I'd suggest you go 2 lines rather than 1. I'm going to split my one with 41, I think my next highest is only 31 or 32 taps. I had a few with over 35 2 seasons ago, I got all but that one split for this past season.

That may actually work better for me. More tubing but I can add the 4 or 5 extra trees I was thinking about adding.

[maple flats]

There you go, 4 extra taps on vacuum will yield 1.5-2 gal. more syrup. Sell it by the qt and you more than pay for the extra 3/16 tubing to split it.

[SSS2017]

There you go, 4 extra taps on vacuum will yield 1.5-2 gal. more syrup. Sell it by the qt and you more than pay for the extra 3/16 tubing to split it.

No doubt! I'm going to walk it again tomorrow to see if I can squeeze in a couple more too on that side. If I'm going to be running 2 lines I may as well try and get all I can get on them.

I want to start looking and planning everything I'll need soon too... you guys think I'll be ok on 3/16 with 5/16 drop lines?

[SSS2017]

No doubt! I'm going to walk it again tomorrow to see if I can squeeze in a couple more too on that side. If I'm going to be running 2 lines I may as well try and get all I can get on them.

I want to start looking and planning everything I'll need soon too... you guys think I'll be ok on 3/16 with 5/16 drop lines?

On vacuum of course. I'm really leaning towards going with Mountain Maples Sap Sucker since it kinda takes care of itself and I won't be able to be out there 24/7 as a hobbyist with a full time job.

[maple flats]

I've seen some reports (or was it theory?) that 5/16 drops on 3/16 laterals is preferred. First, the drop is not long enough to generate much vacuum and second, if sap gets pulled back into the tap hole, it pulls in less contamination from the lateral because the 5/16 drop holds much more sap in itself. The majority of my drops are all 5/16 and about 70% of my laterals are 3/16. The ones in 5/16 are on areas with less total slope to the mainline. All of my mains are on vacuum.

[sugarsand]

I can see more problems than benefit from the hole idea. There was mentioned one time about digging wells and putting a pump at the bottom, but dont recall anybody trying it.

[DrTimPerkins]

I've seen some reports (or was it theory?) that 5/16 drops on 3/16 laterals is preferred. First, the drop is not long enough to generate much vacuum and second, if sap gets pulled back into the tap hole, it pulls in less contamination from the lateral because the 5/16 drop holds much more sap in itself.

You are correct.

[SSS2017]

Thank you all for your replies and help me understanding more!!!

Maybe in the future I'll go with mainlines but for this season my plan(s) are:

2 lines of 3/16 tubing from tree to tree with 5/16 drops(24-30"). One line will have 25 taps and will run 1000', and the other will have 18 taps running 800'. Both lines will drop approximately 14' from last tree to porch.

I'm going with mountain maples sapsucker to vacuum both lines with a 12v battery and charger and a shurflo 4008 diaphragm pump.

Hopefully it all works out and we have a great season!

Just gotta find some food grade storage drums and figure out the 25 plus trees on the right side of my property now. That side only has 4' elevation change, so I either do buckets like last year, or dive in and do another pump on a battery with solar.

Thank you all again! If there's anything glaring that I missed in these 4 pages please chime in!

[Super Sapper]

I would suggest 200 gallons of storage as you can get 100+ gallons of sap on a good run and cut more wood. Most of all have fun.

[Biz]

I'm doing 5/16" drops on 3/16" mainlines next year as well. I had a 3/16" line with 3/16" drops using standard taps that has been a great producer in the past, but this past spring it completely stopped producing a week or two before other lines stopped, for no apparent reason. I blame on several things: lines are 4 years old and ready for replacement; I didn't flush them out well enough last year (black globs in the lines); lack of checkvalve taps; possible increased backflow from the smaller diameter drops; and pump turns off at night before lines freeze which allows backflow into the taphole. Just theories at this point. So my experiment for next year is to use 5/16" drops with checkvalve taps, to hopefully prevent backflow in 2 ways. And possibly programming my diaphragm pump controller to turn off at a lower temperature, after the lines have frozen. I also get the advantage of new tubing. Hope to be flooded in sap next year!

Dave

[SSS2017]

I would suggest 200 gallons of storage as you can get 100+ gallons of sap on a good run and cut more wood. Most of all have fun.

Thanks! I am hoping for 75-100 gallons a week.

Last year on 45 buckets I averaged around 30 gallons over 7 weeks. My best run was 65 gallons in 5 days.

Any suggestions for 55 gallon drums at a decent price? I've been checking craigslist in my area to no avail so far.

[SSS2017]

I'm doing 5/16" drops on 3/16" mainlines next year as well. I had a 3/16" line with 3/16" drops using standard taps that has been a great producer in the past, but this past spring it completely stopped producing a week or two before other lines stopped, for no apparent reason. I blame on several things: lines are 4 years old and ready for replacement; I didn't flush them out well enough last year (black globs in the lines); lack of checkvalve taps; possible increased backflow from the smaller diameter drops; and pump turns off at night before lines freeze which allows backflow into the taphole. Just theories at this point. So my experiment for next year is to use 5/16" drops with checkvalve taps, to hopefully prevent backflow in 2 ways. And possibly programming my diaphragm pump controller to turn off at a lower temperature, after the lines have frozen. I also get the advantage of new tubing. Hope to be flooded in sap next year!

Dave

I thought about doing the check valve taps myself

[WVKeith]

On good clean tubing and full gravity vacuumn, I have had good days of 2+ gallons per day, and normal days of 1.4 gallons per day.

[SSS2017]

On good clean tubing and full gravity vacuumn, I have had good days of 2+ gallons per day, and normal days of 1.4 gallons per day.

Those are some great numbers! I'd be happy with half of that. I averaged around 30 gallons of sap a week last year on 45 buckets last season(my first). We'll see what this year brings with my new setup.

[SSS2017]

I picked up my tote and drums today! I found a food grade ibc 275 gallon tote that had corn syrup in it. Got that for $60. I also got 2- 55 gallon food grade plastic drums with lids for $20 each. They had cherries in them sealed bags. Pretty happy with the $100 purchase even though I had to drive 2 hours for them.

Now I'm looking into my solar options for the right side of my property, and then 3/16 lines, 5/16 drops and all the fittings. Can't wait to start watching the weather and for the upcoming season!

[Walbur1588]

Ok so what tee fitting is everyone using to connect your 5/16 dropline into the 3/16 mainline?

[maple flats]

I use a D&G but most manufacturers now carry a 3/16 x 3/16 x 5/16 T

[SSS2017]

Just want to give a big shout out to Dave at Mountain Maple for his Smart Sap Sucker! This thing is awesome. After running all my lines, tapping Friday, and plugging in the unit Friday night this thing has been running phenomenal! From 9:30 am when it turned on this morning until now (9:30 pm) the unit has been running non stop drawing over 45 gallons of sap on my 41 trees ranging from 16-26” in diameter. It has been ranging from 20-25 inches of vacuum.

So far this has well exceeded my expectations from my bucket operation last year! Thank you Dave!!!