Mainline Question

[wnybassman]

Before next season I will be setting up our new woods to all tubing. Moved the milk tank down there yesterday. The tank will be roughly in the middle, with about a 100 feet of mainline one way, and 150 feet the other way. Each side will service about 75 taps of gravity 3/16ths tubing. Probably going with 3/4" mainline. My question is, will I be able to use a T at the tank and run one line into the tank, or will it be better to have two lines going into the tank?

[Radnagel]

Here's a question since this is going to be gravity why not skip all the mainline and just make each run to the tank. As long as you have drop all the way to the tank let her rip. A foot drop here a foot drop there will all add vacuum to your taps. Plus it's cheaper to. I can run a lot of 3/16's line's to a tank when compared to mainline, wire, and saddles. Just something to think on. Also I personally wouldn't put a T in it. It would cause restriction and when sap would be flowing it would be backing up the line. Better to have both ends dumping into the tank.

[wnybassman]

Here's a question since this is going to be gravity why not skip all the mainline and just make each run to the tank. As long as you have drop all the way to the tank let her rip.

I have thought about that too. I guess I was thinking mainline for a cleaner look all said and done. I figured I would zig zag all the upper trees down to about 20 above the mainline, then run that straight down from there. Then catch all the lower trees on separate lines because they won't have nearly as much vacuum anyway. I could do it all the same way going straight to the tank, but I'll have at least 6 to 8 lines per side coming in, and some traversing at the bottom of the hill without a whole lot of slope to get over to the tank.

[wnybassman]

Here's a question since this is going to be gravity why not skip all the mainline and just make each run to the tank. As long as you have drop all the way to the tank let her rip.

I have thought about that too. I guess I was thinking mainline for a cleaner look all said and done. I figured I would zig zag all the upper trees down to about 20 above the mainline, then run that straight down from there. Then catch all the lower trees on separate lines because they won't have nearly as much vacuum anyway. I could do it all the same way going straight to the tank, but I'll have at least 6 to 8 lines per side coming in, and some traversing at the bottom of the hill without a whole lot of slope to get over to the tank.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Another advantage of using all 3/16 is that you can go right to the tank and know if there are any lines with vacuum leaks and where to go look.

[maple flats]

I bought some sap this season from an Amish man who ran both. He had a 3/4" mainline and then several 3/16 directly to the tank. When I went to pick up early one morning, the 3/16 was running but the 3/4 was still frozen. The 3/16 all ran into a neat bundle with zip ties holding them and that went into an opening on the top of the "milk" tank. It looked quite neat.

[Radnagel]

It's how I am planning on setting up a woods this year. Small woods about 5 acres not a ton of slope. But everything runs to one low point. Then it's going to all come into a manifold built of PVC each line will have it's own ball valve for isolating and detecting leaks. Then the manifold will run into a releaser with a gast 2565 gas powered pump. No mainlines.

[wnybassman]

Well, you guys are making me think about eliminating the mainline idea.

[maple flats]

Based on what you said, you won't regret it at all. You will also save money.

[wnybassman]

Based on what you said, you won't regret it at all. You will also save money.

This evening I went down there to visualize both ways of doing it.

With running all the tubing to the tank, it might be difficult to catch the lower trees furthest away from the tank without a long traversing, hardly any slope, runs across the bottom of the hill to the tank.

With a mainline of some kind, I can zig zag straight down the hill with really good slope right to the mainline.

Hoping Sudzy chimes in here because I think he did the mainline thing with his 3/16ths set-up and was really happy with it.

[Radnagel]

Let put it a different way without the cost of the mainline, wire, tensioners, saddles, and a few other miscellaneous items. Your probably right in the neighborhood of a shurflo and two deep cycle batteries. Just a thought.

[dbeitz1891]

Hi Noel,

Doug Beitz here over in Attica. I have nearly 2,000 3/16ths all of them running into a mainline ranging from 3/4" to 1 1/4". I do have one or two individual 3/16 running into my tank to gather the lower elevation trees in comparison to my tank. You are more than welcome to come check it out any time you'd like. Give me a call if you'd like 813 6623

[Super Sapper]

Let put it a different way without the cost of the mainline, wire, tensioners, saddles, and a few other miscellaneous items. Your probably right in the neighborhood of a shurflo and two deep cycle batteries. Just a thought.

I agree and the added sap will more than pay for the pump and batteries.

[n8hutch]

I Found with minimal slope that the 3/16 is/or can potentially be less productive than 5/16. if you have 20' or more of vertical drop after the last tap to the tank then going the 3/16 route may work well for you, if it's less than that I would go with a 3/4 mainline like you had planned originally. Your not talking about big savings by going with more 3/16 tubing, those rolls of 3/16 tubing add up to a roll of 3/4 in a hurry.

I personally would run 3/16 To the short mains, 25-30 taps per lateral and put a Shurflow on The business end with a recirculation line and watch the sap flow in.

[Super Sapper]

I Found with minimal slope that the 3/16 is/or can potentially be less productive than 5/16. if you have 20' or more of vertical drop after the last tap to the tank then going the 3/16 route may work well for you, if it's less than that I would go with a 3/4 mainline like you had planned originally. Your not talking about big savings by going with more 3/16 tubing, those rolls of 3/16 tubing add up to a roll of 3/4 in a hurry.

I personally would run 3/16 To the short mains, 25-30 taps per lateral and put a Shurflow on The business end with a recirculation line and watch the sap flow in.

I agree with this on gravity but if you have mechanical vacuum 3/16 performs very well with little to no slope.

[maple flats]

As long as you have mechanical vacuum, forget the mainline. When calculation cost it's not only the tubing you count, but with mainline you need a hook connector (or hollow braided rope) to hold each lateral, then you need a saddle to enter the mainline. The price of saddles alone can add up quickly. Then you also need a tool to make an entry hole into the mainline, those can range from $16 to over a hundred depending on what you choose.
With gravity you do want the mainline, but with some mechanical vacuum you are better off running the 3/16 without a mainline all the way to the releaser or to the diaphragm pump.

[n8hutch]

As long as you have mechanical vacuum, forget the mainline. When calculation cost it's not only the tubing you count, but with mainline you need a hook connector (or hollow braided rope) to hold each lateral, then you need a saddle to enter the mainline. The price of saddles alone can add up quickly. Then you also need a tool to make an entry hole into the mainline, those can range from $16 to over a hundred depending on what you choose.
With gravity you do want the mainline, but with some mechanical vacuum you are better off running the 3/16 without a mainline all the way to the releaser or to the diaphragm pump.

That's a fine Point Dave but one must also consider the longevity of 3/16 tubing verse a main line, 3/16 tubing is going to be good for what 5 years at best? How long does a main line last? As I said we are not talking about big savings here you might save 50 dollars on wat vs the other, but it might be a push/or even over time.

This is a relatively small system should be fun to install. I hope you get lots of sap. You won't miss the Buckets I'm sure of that.

[DrTimPerkins]

I Found with minimal slope that the 3/16 is/or can potentially be less productive than 5/16.

3/16" tubing is not (or shouldn't be) recommended in minimal slope applications. Too much friction results in backpressure which reduces sap yields.

[n8hutch]

I agree with you completely Doc, when I first tried it 4 years ago now I was under the impression that it was the total drop and not so much the rate of Drop after the last tap. So what I think happends if you don't have enough drop after the last tap the upper taps at the far end of your line run well because they have the most drop/vacuum and the taps closest to the tank are over powered by the flow and sometimes you might even see the sap appear to be going into the lower trees(back pressure).

I guess a Hybrid system with added vaccum takes care of that.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I agree with you completely Doc, when I first tried it 4 years ago now I was under the impression that it was the total drop and not so much the rate of Drop after the last tap. So what I think happends if you don't have enough drop after the last tap the upper taps at the far end of your line run well because they have the most drop/vacuum and the taps closest to the tank are over powered by the flow and sometimes you might even see the sap appear to be going into the lower trees(back pressure).

I see no issues in that as I run up to 25 taps per lateral line and if the last tree only gets 3' of drop to the mainline, then it goes on the lateral. I run everything that way and with customers also. Will you get more sap running the lateral line along the mainline for several hundred feet to get the 30' drop? Yes, probably but it's the old expression "robbing Peter to pay Paul". You have higher installation cost doing it that way and you also have a lot more lateral line to maintenance and repair. I see really great sap per tap numbers getting it into the mainline as quick as possible. Yes, I run nearly all lateral lines into mainlines. I'm not sure the extra thousands of feet of lateral line tubing will ever pay for itself in more sap, especially if you figure labor into the equation with installation, repairs and maintenance.

[n8hutch]

200 ft of 3/16 tubing is what 13$,5 minutes to walk the extra 200 ft is 2.50$ 1 tap at even today's bulk prices would pay say 40 dollars over 5 years, how would it not pay for itself, retail your talking 150 dollars gross income from that 1 tap . I guess I'm missing something especially if that tap is doing nothing because of pack pressure.

[wnybassman]

Hi Noel,

Doug Beitz here over in Attica. I have nearly 2,000 3/16ths all of them running into a mainline ranging from 3/4" to 1 1/4". I do have one or two individual 3/16 running into my tank to gather the lower elevation trees in comparison to my tank. You are more than welcome to come check it out any time you'd like. Give me a call if you'd like 813 6623

Thanks! I may just do that. I grew up in Alexander so I am pretty familiar with Attica too. I've been pretty busy but I think my schedule will loosen up in a few weeks.

[DrTimPerkins]

I see no issues in that as I run up to 25 taps per lateral line and if the last tree only gets 3' of drop to the mainline, then it goes on the lateral.

As long as you have a good elevation drop and keep the system leak free you'll generate decent vacuum. The issue is related to low slope applications only. A drop line will get you a little vacuum (but not much additional sap yield from it for other reasons), but then you loose it in the lateral lines that run across flat areas.

The easiest analogy is that it is like a kid sledding down a hill. As long as you have good slope, gravity is pulling you down and can overcome any friction so that you're sailing along just fine (this downward movement generates vacuum behind it -- in a tight system). When you hit a flat area, friction slows you down (so you lose the vacuum you had). If the flat area is just a short distance, you can sail through it and continue down the hill behind. However if the flat area is too long, or if you start out on flat ground, you just aren't going to go anywhere (will generate no vacuum, or not enough to overcome friction -- in fact, the weight of the sled -- or sap -- makes it somewhat more difficult to overcome friction and get things moving -- creating backpressure on any sap trying to enter the line from the tree).

We can extend that analogy a bit further if we wish. The kid starting at the top of the hill has the most momentum and will go the furthest at the bottom (has the most vacuum). A kid starting half way up will have about half the momentum (vacuum). A kid starting 3' up the hill won't go real far (little vacuum). A kid starting at the bottom won't go anywhere (no vacuum). In order to get that kid moving, we either need somebody to push them (pressure within the tree) or somebody to pull them (vacuum in the line from a pump). But because the kid at the bottom has some friction (bottom of the sled hitting the snow, or sap moving in a small diameter tubing line), it takes a bit of force to get them going, and you'll have less vacuum differential at the tree, and thus slightly less sap yield since it is the vacuum (pressure) differential that creates sap flow, and sap yield is strongly and linearly related to pressure differential (5% more sap per 1" Hg vacuum).

Hopefully that makes sense.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Dr Tim,

I agree that 30' past last tap is ideal, what I was referring to is that some guys run each lateral lines hundreds of feet along side of mainline to get 30' of drop past last tap. With mainlines mostly 2% to 5% slope, this results in tons of additional lateral line length to get that 30'. I agree there will probably be a little more sap but on a cost analysis, I don't see the benefit. Yes, it sells more tubing but at the end of the day I don't think it's best installation or best for customer.

[DrTimPerkins]

Yes, it sells more tubing but at the end of the day I don't think it's best installation or best for customer.

I agree. The cost benefit ratio can be marginal under those circumstances.

[wnybassman]

As long as you have a good elevation drop and keep the system leak free you'll generate decent vacuum. The issue is related to low slope applications only. A drop line will get you a little vacuum (but not much additional sap yield from it for other reasons), but then you loose it in the lateral lines that run across flat areas.

The easiest analogy is that it is like a kid sledding down a hill. As long as you have good slope, gravity is pulling you down and can overcome any friction so that you're sailing along just fine (this downward movement generates vacuum behind it -- in a tight system). When you hit a flat area, friction slows you down (so you lose the vacuum you had). If the flat area is just a short distance, you can sail through it and continue down the hill behind. However if the flat area is too long, or if you start out on flat ground, you just aren't going to go anywhere (will generate no vacuum, or not enough to overcome friction -- in fact, the weight of the sled -- or sap -- makes it somewhat more difficult to overcome friction and get things moving -- creating backpressure on any sap trying to enter the line from the tree).

We can extend that analogy a bit further if we wish. The kid starting at the top of the hill has the most momentum and will go the furthest at the bottom (has the most vacuum). A kid starting half way up will have about half the momentum (vacuum). A kid starting 3' up the hill won't go real far (little vacuum). A kid starting at the bottom won't go anywhere (no vacuum). In order to get that kid moving, we either need somebody to push them (pressure within the tree) or somebody to pull them (vacuum in the line from a pump). But because the kid at the bottom has some friction (bottom of the sled hitting the snow, or sap moving in a small diameter tubing line), it takes a bit of force to get them going, and you'll have less vacuum differential at the tree, and thus slightly less sap yield since it is the vacuum (pressure) differential that creates sap flow, and sap yield is strongly and linearly related to pressure differential (5% more sap per 1" Hg vacuum).

Hopefully that makes sense.

I think that's what I had going on this season. Because we bought that land so late in the fall, we didn't really have time to do anything drastic, and I tapped the upper half of the trees and ran lines directly into a cage tank halfway down the hill. For the record, this property slopes away from the road so everything has to be pumped up to the road. Out of the 6 lines I had going into it, 4 of them had a long gradual run traversing across the hill to get to the tank, although all of the runs had good slope leading up to that long traverse. There was only one day did I have a gallon per tap run, most times it was a 1/2 gallon or less. I really felt that flat at the end hurt my production. I think a mainline will help prevent that scenario at the bottom of the hill also.

[DrTimPerkins]

I really felt that flat at the end hurt my production. I think a mainline will help prevent that scenario at the bottom of the hill also.

Very likely that did lessen your production, and as long as you can get some amount of slope (even a minimal amount), then I'd switch to mainline for the flat section.

[wnybassman]

I decided to stick with the mainline route.

I have a driveway that can be used during the driest months of the summer that I will need to remove a section of it though. Planning on Banjo cam lock fittings for this section, just wondering if I can get the tension on the pipe with these fittings once things are tightened back up?

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Find the best spot on either side of the drive for than banjo fittings (where you have a good tree to tension to) and leave a couple feet of mainline either side of the fitting untied from the wire so the banjos aren't under too much tension. They seem to always leak some as it is so you definitely don't want them pulling against each other. We wrapped wire around the tree from both directions and connect/disconnect the banjos as needed by having a couple feet to work with either side of the fitting.
That is, until this year when we raised the line up, got the clearance we needed and got rid of the banjo fittings that were both leaking. My first suggestion would be to look at that and see if its possible. if not, banjos work good but they leak over time so keep an eye on them. I'm not sure they seal 100% no matter what you do.

[Maplewalnut]

I see no issues in that as I run up to 25 taps per lateral line and if the last tree only gets 3' of drop to the mainline, then it goes on the lateral. I run everything that way and with customers also. Will you get more sap running the lateral line along the mainline for several hundred feet to get the 30' drop? Yes, probably but it's the old expression "robbing Peter to pay Paul". You have higher installation cost doing it that way and you also have a lot more lateral line to maintenance and repair. I see really great sap per tap numbers getting it into the mainline as quick as possible. Yes, I run nearly all lateral lines into mainlines. I'm not sure the extra thousands of feet of lateral line tubing will ever pay for itself in more sap, especially if you figure labor into the equation with installation, repairs and maintenance.

Good thread in the off season. I'll jump in with another question.... so if back pressure and minimal slope are a concern with the taps closest to the mainline that have little elevation drop on 3/16ths...would it be better to hook up any low elevation trees conventionally with 5/16ths into a separate mainline saddle and whatever you get gravity wise is more than not tapping them at all

thanks
Mike

[wnybassman]

Good thread in the off season. I'll jump in with another question.... so if back pressure and minimal slope are a concern with the taps closest to the mainline that have little elevation drop on 3/16ths...would it be better to hook up any low elevation trees conventionally with 5/16ths into a separate mainline saddle and whatever you get gravity wise is more than not tapping them at all

thanks
Mike

That was actually my first plan, but then decided just to do the lower trees on their own 3/16ths line as well. I will only have a max of 6 or 7 trees on these lower lines, but the top most will still be 10-15 feet or more above the mainline so I guess I will still generate a little vacuum with these trees too.

[wnybassman]

Is there any minimum spacing for saddles on 3/4" mainline? I might have 4 or 5 in the last several feet of one of the ends.

[Maplewalnut]

That was actually my first plan, but then decided just to do the lower trees on their own 3/16ths line as well. I will only have a max of 6 or 7 trees on these lower lines, but the top most will still be 10-15 feet or more above the mainline so I guess I will still generate a little vacuum with these trees too.

I literally have 25 trees or so within arms length of the mainline so they may have only a foot or two drop

[Rockport]

Last year i used 3/16 and 5/16 on a main line and straight in the tank both . I built a manifold using 2" pvc ,drilled holes to let the 3/16 into it and drilled and tapped with pipe threader for the mainline. It worked well and really like being able to see the sap running in,the mainline was black plastic and I am changing over some of it to blue mainline which I should see the sap running in also. Appreciate all the ideas on here !