Selling cheap does not drive market down

[blissville maples]

I can't wrap my head around how some think selling syrup slightly less than they potentially could drives market down......for instance selling at 40 a gallon, or selling 2.25 bulk to a client when he's paying 2.50 now......in fact it does just the opposite- speeds up consumption.....there is only one reason that the prices are down and that's a flooded market, weather it's due to over production or lack of marketing. These Packers are charging the same per lb to say general Mills cereal or hood ice cream, they have not reduced their price whatever it may be......we producer have had our price lowered because these Packers are drowning in syrup, they dont need anymore and can't jeoporadize having a huge overstock......by one selling 50-150 gallons to a buyer at .25 less than what he's paying now will only speed up his consumption.....pretty unlikely he's going to post on Facebook or go tell everyone that he gets it for .25 less than he was and every bulk buyer of syrup should only pay that and stop buying at the .25 more price.....that's obsurd......ive been in business, not just syrup, for 13 years and certain customers are only going to pay a certain price for what they use or service they need, does not matter if you like it or agree, that's just how it is. In my line of business some pay 1.90 a square foot and other cheapies pay 1.20.....whats funny is the cheap budget spec home builder never pays 1.90 and the high end builder never pays 1.20 a foot.....funny stuff,.......look at Farmers they get 15-20 a hundred for milk they have no other place to sell except a packer like Cabot, they can't sell 600 gallons of milk a day and certainly can't afford a bottling plant- Sugaring is falling into same footprint, and it's due to marketing ability, only the packers and bottlers have large capabilities to market and sell huge quantity

[Parker]

????? If im selling to a restraunt for $50 a gallon and they go on craigslist and see they can buy syrup for $40 a gallon they call me befor the next delivery and say you need to macth the lower price,,,,i think the price has just been driven down.....oversupply drives the price down..(with oversupply and lower bulk prices now more producers are botteling and selling their syrup to consumers,,more syrup on the retail market means more compitition and lower prices.."race to the bottom") ..the restraunt goes thru 2 gallons a week...they are not charging less for the syrup, they are making more money the consumption remains the same.

To solve the problem we need to expand the market beyond what it is now. A fraction of the population consumes syrup,,,imho,,,,the answer is to create more demand,,,not slice your neighbors bag,,,,,i.e. undercutting price......

The packers are not going to want to invest in expanding a market they dont own because it wont directly bennift them...cant blame them,,they are in biz to make all they can,,,,,who would bennifit from more demand? The producer....all of us

So who has to expand demand,,,well,, we can see how great a job the current powers that be are doing...so i would geuss it would be in our best interest to figure it out ourselves.....and what would be a better place to do that than a great fourm like this...

So blissville,,,,how are we going to grow the worldwide market? Why would you want to sell for less when there is a whole world of consumers out there?

[western mainer]

In Maine Most are selling a gal. for $60.00 And sales are good! Must be that good Maine Syrup!:lol:
Brian

[blissville maples]

????? If im selling to a restraunt for $50 a gallon and they go on craigslist and see they can buy syrup for $40 a gallon they call me befor the next delivery and say you need to macth the lower price,,,,i think the price has just been driven down.....oversupply drives the price down..(with oversupply and lower bulk prices now more producers are botteling and selling their syrup to consumers,,more syrup on the retail market means more compitition and lower prices.."race to the bottom") ..the restraunt goes thru 2 gallons a week...they are not charging less for the syrup, they are making more money the consumption remains the same.

To solve the problem we need to expand the market beyond what it is now. A fraction of the population consumes syrup,,,imho,,,,the answer is to create more demand,,,not slice your neighbors bag,,,,,i.e. undercutting price......

The packers are not going to want to invest in expanding a market they dont own because it wont directly bennift them...cant blame them,,they are in biz to make all they can,,,,,who would bennifit from more demand? The producer....all of us

So who has to expand demand,,,well,, we can see how great a job the current powers that be are doing...so i would geuss it would be in our best interest to figure it out ourselves.....and what would be a better place to do that than a great fourm like this...

So blissville,,,,how are we going to grow the worldwide market? Why would you want to sell for less when there is a whole world of consumers out there?

First of off if a restaurant is buying for 50 a gallon and take 2 gallons they are not buying bulk, that's retail, and they should consider a cheaper supply being they, as with their other items, should be buying wholesale.....as far as I see they are being overcharged, causing their prices to potentially be higher driving g business down......

Why wouldn't Packers want to invest in expanding a market? They are the ones holding the market in their hands Making the most profit, they have not reduced their prices likely increase when gas went up. But we are getting less bc they are drowning In syrup....the supply and demand ends at the packers, they cut it off by dropping price like Bascoms did a month ago. You think they lowered price because they can't sell anymore, no not at all they are at 90% capacity..... The guy told me down there if it keeps up they may have to stop taking syrup now do you think that's because they stop selling it not at all they are at capacity it's that simple..... Bascoms already did a huge expansion a few years back, they may be considering another.....

I want to sell my syrup less because I will sell more, especially to some of those who aren't as well off financially​ wouldn't that make sense.....why do you think Mercedes Doesn't sell as much as Ford, because they cost more, but Ford has higher profits than Mercedes.....hmmmm can't understand it

[blissville maples]

Lol, the packers are the market....other than what you sell privately......you have some private buyer only buying from you taking 2000 gals?? I didn't think so Bascoms is the market....state government isn't doing nothing to boost sales nor is anyone else.....what sells syrup is the pricetag and us!!

[blissville maples]

So In other words you feel to create a more vibrant larger market we must charge more and make people hmm and haw about if they can afford it......or are you just tapping a blue and white collar market, looking at a higher price to boost bottom line and not volume of sales to boost bottom line, as Mercedes did??....

[ToadHill]

If I only have x number of trees and I sell my crop for $50 a gallon and somebody comes along and undercuts me for $45 a gallon I have a choice to make. I can maintain my price and try to find new buyers willing to pay $50 or I can lower my price to be competitive. If I can't find new buyers I'm stuck so I lower my price. Guess what, then my competition does it again forcing me to make the same choice again. It only ends when we've all sold our product at a lower price (the bottom). You can only make more money selling at a lower price if you have the ability to expand production. That isn't the case for many, if not most producers.

[spud]

Your spot on Randy. There is not much else we can do unless we travel the country looking for new market. And if we choose to do that then shortly after we find that new market some other sugar maker will come in and sell for less.

Spud

[blissville maples]

Do you understand that your talking about a retail market, not a wholesale one?? Quite a difference. Expand producion is one way, producing more efficiently is another and has bigger payback faster little to no investment.....you either need to go big or stay micro, the 500-2000 tap range is not profitable unless you can market all your own syrup to dedicated loyal customers who like you and don't shop around............it's the packers running the show, and we must take over cut em out....I just grabbed a small whiskey maker, only 100 gals a year for now but he won't be buying from Goodrich anymore!!

[markcasper]

The guy told me down there if it keeps up they may have to stop taking syrup now do you think that's because they stop selling it not at all they are at capacity it's that simple...

Instead of not taking syrup.........? why wouldn't syrup just go down to $1.00, or .50 a pound. per lb.? If we truly have a free market.

[blissville maples]

Not sure how much syrup it would take to make 5 lbs of sugar but if it could be done competivly with white sugar think of the market you would have, wouldn't be no 60$ a gallon but if it were around 20-25$ that would be a huge boost to maple industry....but godforbid a gallon be sold for under 50$ right?? Regardless if it opens up a market......who cares as long as it's profitable, you can't please all

[markcasper]

it's the packers running the show, and we must take over cut em out.! Going to be a game of hard ball when so many are dictating to the state how the inspections will be done.

[blissville maples]

Instead of not taking syrup.........? why wouldn't syrup just go down to $1.00, or .50 a pound. per lb.? If we truly have a free market.
Because they were at 80% capacity a month ago, and the day prior they took in 250 barrels on two tractor trailer..... The guy took me for a walk through their main Warehouse where they keep their syrup and they have literally no room for syrup..... The big producers up north are just starting to have their crops hit the market

[blissville maples]

Going to be a game of hard ball when they are the ones dictating to the state how the inspections will be done, at least "here". they don't dictate the price though or who you sell to do they?? Vermont is pro agriculture or at least up till now but with all these implants moving in that will likely change inspections will come, but I can't see that prohibited you from selling to somebody cutting out a packer

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Not sure how much syrup it would take to make 5 lbs of sugar but if it could be done competivly with white sugar think of the market you would have, wouldn't be no 60$ a gallon but if it were around 20-25$ that would be a huge boost to maple industry....but godforbid a gallon be sold for under 50$ right?? Regardless if it opens up a market......who cares as long as it's profitable, you can't please all

A gallon of maple syrup will make slightly less than 8 lbs of sugar. You can buy white sugar in Walmart currently for 64 cents/lb. That means $5.12 per gallon without considering the cost of making the syrup into sugar. We cannot compete on a cost basis!

[PerryFamily]

Because they were at 80% capacity a month ago, and the day prior they took in 250 barrels on two tractor trailer..... The guy took me for a walk through their main Warehouse where they keep their syrup and they have literally no room for syrup..... The big producers up north are just starting to have their crops hit the market



I was there yesterday and they were still buying syrup. There was myself ( trading for equipment) and another guy and there was zero mention of not buying.

Also retail a couple thousand gallons is a lot different than multiple thousands of gallons large producers make. It's just not feasible at that size

[BAP]

To properly retail thousands of gallons of syrup takes a lot of work. To be truely retail that means only you are selling it to the retail costumer, not selling it to a store, restaurant, or someone using for a flavoring in another product. If you sell to someone else to turn around and resell then you are wholesaling for less than retail because the reseller isn't going to handle your syrup for making zero profit. You would have to have a huge costumer base to sell thousands of gallons all retail. Canning that amount of syrup takes a lot labor and time, not to mention containers.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

one persons price per gallon will be different from another I would think due to costs of production, over head, loans etc. The people out there who have tens of thousands of dollars out there on loans to who ever most likely cant sell at a lower price. People like me who don't have loans out, have very little over head can sell there gallon of syrup for 30, 1/2 for 20, quarts for 10.
Also to some it becomes a matter of principal of, ok I take my syrup to a packer and get 24 dollars a gallon, the packer turns around sells it for 50+ a gallon. I would rather under cut the packers then let them make a sizable profit off my late hours, blood, sweat and tears and then show them the BIG MIDDLE FINGER!!!!!

[blissville maples]

I was there yesterday and they were still buying syrup. There was myself ( trading for equipment) and another guy and there was zero mention of not buying.

Also retail a couple thousand gallons is a lot different than multiple thousands of gallons large producers make. It's just not feasible at that size
I'm just telling you what I heard from the graders, they would know best.......I go down 3-4 times a year

[blissville maples]

They are running out of refrigerated storage.....they were 80% capacity, four weeks ago I'm sure they are closer to 90+ now.....they can only handle so much, again that's what I was told, the darker haired guy, can't remember his name been grading syrup there for years so I don't think it was storytime

[blissville maples]

Flatlander said it all......those with loans can and will suffer, me I've been building my operation for years not overnight no loan and I can sell for 20$ a gallon and live high on the hog!!

[blissville maples]

Does anybody know if maple syrup is sold retail at local grocery stores in the south west usa... I have family in Florida and they don't hear much about it down there I just have to wonder how much of the country even has access to retail maple syrup besides ordering online people impulse buy more than shop

[BAP]

They are running out of refrigerated storage.....they were 80% capacity, four weeks ago I'm sure they are closer to 90+ now.....they can only handle so much, again that's what I was told, the darker haired guy, can't remember his name been grading syrup there for years so I don't think it was storytime
That's not their only storage.

[blissville maples]

What the refrigerator storage? Well other than their other receiving room and room between there and their refrigerator room where barrels go 4 high and they keep their own crop, I don't know.....do they store off site in another area of NH?? I don't think they would store them out in the parking lot--- lol again that's what I was told so, I don't know how you can get any better information they don't seem like liars, I've been going for quite a few years now.

[Parker]

Wow...blissville,,,,you are going to produce syrup, store it, bottel it, market it, and deliever it for $20 a gallon and make a profit? What does your electricity, fuel, repair on equipment, taxes on buildings, tap rent or land taxes ect ect cost? How much did you spend on your equipment? Is your time worth anything? With 2400? Taps say you hit 1200 gallons (being from vt and all) x$20 a gallon minus your expenses......thats making money????hunh...weird....with containers,,if you really figure out your expenses your really making like what...$2 or $3 an hour...if that,,,,,,i really dont think you are making anything......

As far as getting syrup into new markets,,now you are talking,,the question is the best way to do that,,,thats a way better idea than screwing your neighbor out of an account..(GG).why would you want to sell your product for less than you know its worth when with a littel extrawork and brainpower you can sell it for more than most folks are getting around here??? When you screw your fellow producer over (and laugh about it) you are screwing yourself over at the same time.(that might be a tough concept to wrap your brain around)....

Way more money in creating markets.....but to each their own

[amaranth farm]

As far as getting syrup into new markets,,now you are talking,,the question is the best way to do that...?

Years ago that would have fallen to the traveling salesman. Now we seem to be so enamored with electrons that that approach is passe. Probably no single average producer could afford to retain a firm to push their product afar, many might have relations that have relocated for education or employment. I am trying to expand my market, through using a long term friend in the South West to bang on doors, in this case restaurants, with samples and literature. This is only half the battle. The other is the cost to ship. I have compounded the issue by packaging solely in glass. However, glass is my niche and I can utilize it in marketing as well.

Without derailing the thread, I market that to my perception, packaging in plastic effects flavour after a short time. I then make a case where glass will not. How many single malt's are packaged in plastic? It differentiates me, and it sells.

Most new markets, in my mind, are going to be had by sacrifice to the point of breaking even. Shipping 12 litres plus samples UPS is not an economy of scale. However, if over this year and next I can build a relationship with Farm to Table type eateries to the point where I can be assured that 50 to 100 gallons can be expected in orders, I should be able to ship a pallet once a year and get a lower per unit shipping cost. Regardless, I think part of the key to opening markets is having a story to differentiate oneself from the next producer.

For the industry as a whole, that could be as simple as pointing out the domination of foreign product in a domestic market; but judging by the number of foreign makes on the road registered with veteran's vanity plates, that might be asking for too much....

[Parker]

Awsome reply. Createingand holding new markets is going to be key!!

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Does anybody know if maple syrup is sold retail at local grocery stores in the south west usa... I have family in Florida and they don't hear much about it down there I just have to wonder how much of the country even has access to retail maple syrup besides ordering online people impulse buy more than shop
yes Safeway grocery stores, walmarts obviously carry Maple syrup. Its like 18 for pint?. Ill let you know in a couple weeks for exact prices.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

As far as getting syrup into new markets,,now you are talking,,the question is the best way to do that...?

Years ago that would have fallen to the traveling salesman. Now we seem to be so enamored with electrons that that approach is passe. Probably no single average producer could afford to retain a firm to push their product afar, many might have relations that have relocated for education or employment. I am trying to expand my market, through using a long term friend in the South West to bang on doors, in this case restaurants, with samples and literature. This is only half the battle. The other is the cost to ship. I have compounded the issue by packaging solely in glass. However, glass is my niche and I can utilize it in marketing as well.

Without derailing the thread, I market that to my perception, packaging in plastic effects flavour after a short time. I then make a case where glass will not. How many single malt's are packaged in plastic? It differentiates me, and it sells.

Most new markets, in my mind, are going to be had by sacrifice to the point of breaking even. Shipping 12 litres plus samples UPS is not an economy of scale. However, if over this year and next I can build a relationship with Farm to Table type eateries to the point where I can be assured that 50 to 100 gallons can be expected in orders, I should be able to ship a pallet once a year and get a lower per unit shipping cost. Regardless, I think part of the key to opening markets is having a story to differentiate oneself from the next producer.

For the industry as a whole, that could be as simple as pointing out the domination of foreign product in a domestic market; but judging by the number of foreign makes on the road registered with veteran's vanity plates, that might be asking for too much....

to ship a 40 gal barrel to Washington state was close to 500.00 for a ice cream store to make maple flavored ice cream. Barrel of syrup 1232.00, shipping 500.00, 200.00 barrel retainer fee.

[blissville maples]

Wow...blissville,,,,you are going to produce syrup, store it, bottel it, market it, and deliever it for $20 a gallon and make a profit? What does your electricity, fuel, repair on equipment, taxes on buildings, tap rent or land taxes ect ect cost? How much did you spend on your equipment? Is your time worth anything? With 2400? Taps say you hit 1200 gallons (being from vt and all) x$20 a gallon minus your expenses......thats making money????hunh...weird....with containers,,if you really figure out your expenses your really making like what...$2 or $3 an hour...if that,,,,,,i really dont think you are making anything......

As far as getting syrup into new markets,,now you are talking,,the question is the best way to do that,,,thats a way better idea than screwing your neighbor out of an account..(GG).why would you want to sell your product for less than you know its worth when with a littel extrawork and brainpower you can sell it for more than most folks are getting around here??? When you screw your fellow producer over (and laugh about it) you are screwing yourself over at the same time.(that might be a tough concept to wrap your brain around)....

Way more money in creating markets.....but to each their own

I don't run a bottling facility, but yes I produce, bottle or barrel some, sell, do some marketing here and there.....do I market across country no, and never said that. 20 is bulk I get 40 a gallon for about 150 gallons all else is sold at 21 to Bascom.... repair what?? Taxes?? The house is the biggest tax hit, la d maybe 1000 a year if that, electric bill to run RO and 2 pumps -700$...... You people seem to forget that it's not a full-time job from the time you tap till the time you finish there was two weeks off in March and other than tapping and swapping tabs how many hours a day do you actually work sugaring you probably spend more time dubbing off In a day of Sugaring than working.... There's usually only a two to three week period Where it's Balls to the walls. To make 900 gallons I swapped Taps and tapped for six seven days I untappd 4 days 2 days of cleaning I really enjoy Maple sugaring so I'm not paying myself$75 an hour to do something I enjoy I look at it as a nearly $20,000 bonus minus roughly 4000 in costs, leaving me at least$15,000 4 8 weeks worth of work minus the two weeks of freeze up that's over $2,000 a week.

[spud]

I think the Packers would love to see all sugar maker's join together and help educate the world on the benefits of Maple Syrup verses other sweeteners. We will do all the work and spend all the money to promote this and the Packers will just increase their sales. You can go out and spend a lot of time and money putting your syrup on a store shelf but the Packers will eventually take over your shelf space. As the world wide maple sales increase Canada will increase the number of taps they have.

Spud

[blissville maples]

Btw I plow my neighbors driveway and bush hog for them for their taps, other 1000 tap bush costs me about 6 cases of beer, and another I skimmed and painted his ceiling from water damage

[blissville maples]

I think the Packers would love to see all sugar maker's join together and help educate the world on the benefits of Maple Syrup verses other sweeteners. We will do all the work and spend all the money to promote this and the Packers will just increase their sales. You can go out and spend a lot of time and money putting your syrup on a store shelf but the Packers will eventually take over your shelf space. As the world wide maple sales increase Canada will increase the number of taps they have.

Spudno different than dairy, I don't see any independent farms bottling and selling- they can't compete...... Parker don't you bottle store for a short period and sell and deliver your syrup..... You make it sound like I want to open up a processing facility for 4.5 million or something I can't say that would be profitable without being underwater for a couple years

[blissville maples]

Lol, 2 or 3 dollars an hr---- I just re read your post and saw that, I originally missed......all in all I tapped Feb. 10 done April 15 the or so.......that's 8 weeks total, and like I said we had AT LEAST 2-3 weeks off froze up.........but to be on the low side of profit figure the whole 8 weeks( not to mention I went back to work for a week and made 2500 that week at my normal job). 8x70hrs (10hr days X7 days) that's 560 hrs now divide Into 15,000 =26.78 per hr after paying overhead....... someone needs to a. Go back to school or b. Learn what efficient is and follow suit.....get in touch with me I'll show you how to make money in maple, free of charge u just have to listen, which is hard for some

[blissville maples]

And to correct you, I'm.not screwing my neighbor, without competition, which the maple Industry has never experienced until now, prices of everything would be out of control, i.e a gallon of syrup costing 60$.... Ok if the price keeps going up ( because these days it seems we wanna have an entitlement of I make 80$ an HR to brag about) and no one can offer cheaper (wether it be car insurance, agriculture equipment, anything) then people stop using a particular product or service it's common Sense. your telling me that's good, just keep the price at 60 a gallon when it's easier than ever to produce.......I thought you wanted to create a market not disarm one, with greed.........you wanna make more money work harder, instead of tapping 400 trees a day tap 600 run move sweat, in my line of business I make at least double the next guy because I'm paid by how much I do not by simply being existent....I can make 200 a day or 1500 it depends how hard I want to work.....no different anywhere else

[blissville maples]

I think the Packers would love to see all sugar maker's join together and help educate the world on the benefits of Maple Syrup verses other sweeteners. We will do all the work and spend all the money to promote this and the Packers will just increase their sales. You can go out and spend a lot of time and money putting your syrup on a store shelf but the Packers will eventually take over your shelf space. As the world wide maple sales increase Canada will increase the number of taps they have.

Spud
This is where price comes into play...we all sell to packers and they mark up, this mean we all can sell to shaws or Wamart cheaper than a packer, they are a middle man who a grocery chains can go to and get what they want with no issues with supply, insurance, or a tax I'd number.....I'm in business and people pay for reliability and that's what a big packer has, it's not they are cheaper it's the reliability factor and their presence as being established...... Walmart will not buy for 250 a lb when can get it for 225 a lb it's that simple....they just don't have the ability to shop around, there's not alot of sources for them......I'd be curious as to how many large maple syrup Packers there are in the United States I think there's two or three in Vermont I think one in New Hampshire and maybe a few others in other states you can pretty well bet that they are all within a couple cents of each other, this creates no competition and a locked market. However with food processing it's tough, anyone can deliver a load of firewood but processing​ food requires equipment and some money depending on what scale your taking it to. However one could bottle at least a hundred gallons a day on some simple canning equipment......all it would take is a good firm contact to a wall Mart marketing agent or a comparable and be able to put your money where your mouth is and handle a little risk...

[Parker]

Blissville,,,you are too funny,,the more you talk the more of a joke you sound like....are you on drugs or drunk? I have not laughed that hard in a while......smiles

[Super Sapper]

Lol, 2 or 3 dollars an hr---- I just re read your post and saw that, I originally missed......all in all I tapped Feb. 10 done April 15 the or so.......that's 8 weeks total, and like I said we had AT LEAST 2-3 weeks off froze up.........but to be on the low side of profit figure the whole 8 weeks( not to mention I went back to work for a week and made 2500 that week at my normal job). 8x70hrs (10hr days X7 days) that's 560 hrs now divide Into 15,000 =26.78 per hr after paying overhead....... someone needs to a. Go back to school or b. Learn what efficient is and follow suit.....get in touch with me I'll show you how to make money in maple, free of charge u just have to listen, which is hard for some

Your capital costs need to be added into your expenses to be accurate.

[n8hutch]

Your capital costs need to be added into your expenses to be accurate.

People often fail to do this, work for peanuts for a few years , wear their equipment out and can't figure out how/where they went wrong.

I think Blissvilles heart may be in the right place, I just don't think he is focused on the prize, you should be looking to make More money with the same amount of Effort put in, if you work harder to make the same amount of money all you've done is wasted your time. Why would you want to hustle and bust your but to sell 200 Gallons at 40. Dollar average when you could sell 100 gallons at an 80 dollars average and sell the rest bulk, less effort and more money in your pocket, now if you spent half the energy figuring out how to sell more syrup at the same amount or for more money as you do trying to outsmart the rest of us fools here on the Trader you'd probably be buying bulk syrup and selling for retail lIke some of us soo called fools are.

[BAP]

Blissville,,,you are too funny,,the more you talk the more of a joke you sound like....are you on drugs or drunk? I have not laughed that hard in a while......smiles
You Hit the Nail on the head Parker. Just what I was thinking too./.

[blissville maples]

Apparently my words are leading you in the wrong direction, apologize I'm a poor communicator, I'm better at working. Drunk or on drugs- please explain. My equipment and tubing is paid for the first 2 years back in '12 and 13'.....you guys must be stainless steel savvy's....my rig is 25 years old( stainless pans obviously) paid 2500 for arch 7 years ago, and upgraded to some decent new pans for 1000 two years ago, Yea I soldered them a little but my syrup is as good or better than yours!!!☺️. What capital investment, im not starting Microsoft. The RO was used for 6000, and as of this year I own 10k in pumps as my first vp76 I paid 500 and 74 was 750$- they are both replaced and RESOLD for what I paid!!!! The sugarhouse house I built(yep set concrete, framed, roofed one half of roof and rafters we're reused,and wired) for less than 2500 the concrete was 1100....... My capital investment (RO, arch, press, sugarhouse, pumps, and lines tanks release). I would say low side 33k to high side 40 invested.....made yr1 700$ on 1100 taps yr2 1200$ on 1100 taps yr3-8600$ on 1500 taps yr4- 4500$ on 1500 taps yr5- 7500$ on 1500 taps yr 6- 16,000$ on 2200 taps yr 7 19,000$ on 2500 taps..... Comes out to 57,000$ adding in my head on a whim as I'm running late. I've never paid labor, I guess except 2 days in 7 years add 200.00$ really splitting hairs now....my taps cost me nothing but beer labor and some diesel, only 1/4 are on my land

Don't sound like im too drunk there does it. Capital gains are paid back, how many years u wanna figure that in. It's already paid for, haha.....sounds like a case of jealousy, I've dealt with this alot. Jealous that I am profitable and you wish you were.

Hutch, bap....u what have loans out for your 30k evaporator and your fancy stainless holding tanks and draw off vats...lol you won't see me with stainless sap tank- way better places to put money than sap storage, and cleaning? How many hours a year do you save by having stainless- not much in my case.

You ought to know something before you assume
Hope you feel better

[AdirondackSap]

I got into ut once with blissville. If you think 22$ a gallon is profitable you must be dreaming. Ive been marketing my syrup down south. Mostly selling wholesale 40$ a gallon. To me 22$ a gallon is giving it away. Its not just syrup were people are undercutting people the equipment manufacturers are doing the same think. When you can buy a mes or memprotec RO for 8 grand. When i got my cdl RO 3 years ago i paid 11500 and to see that its now worth 7k because these knockoff companies are selling a new machine for 8k. Its getting bad

[blissville maples]

Parker what do you like to pollute the environment or what? you burn 50 chords on 4000 taps or did you add taps? Or just like to cut a bunch of wood on your free time instead of kicking up the feet infront the tube? then act like you need figure that time in

[AdirondackSap]

Then we wonder why syrup is 2$ a lb because they are making it so cheap to get into now everyone is making syrup.

[blissville maples]

I got into ut once with blissville. If you think 22$ a gallon is profitable you must be dreaming. Ive been marketing my syrup down south. Mostly selling wholesale 40$ a gallon. To me 22$ a gallon is giving it away. Its not just syrup were people are undercutting people the equipment manufacturers are doing the same think. When you can buy a mes or memprotec RO for 8 grand. When i got my cdl RO 3 years ago i paid 11500 and to see that its now worth 7k because these knockoff companies are selling a new machine for 8k. Its getting bad

Oh crying cause your new stuff depreciated?? No wonder why you can't make money at 22.00

Whats up with you, do you really think I'm lying or making up the fact I can sell for 22 and make money why would I do this what benefit would I get

[blissville maples]

I dont think 22 is profitable I know it is......it was for me this year, I'd say 15$ for me is the NPO point.....
I guess your just not efficient enough to cut it, maybe the forestry business would better suit you

[blissville maples]

Then we wonder why syrup is 2$ a lb because they are making it so cheap to get into now everyone is making syrup.
Wow you said something intelligent

[blissville maples]

That's because the more people that start doing it these manufacturer use more raw material and get it cheaper then they offer their products cheaper to get business

[blissville maples]

Then we wonder why syrup is 2$ a lb because they are making it so cheap to get into now everyone is making syrup.
This is why the sooner the weak get weeded out the rest of us can get back to making more money, but they keep SPENDING money to play the syrup game

[AdirondackSap]

I made 40k in syrup this year. My expenses were fuel for truck and vac pump. Electricity and some help thats it. Whwn i started 7 years ago i started small. Built it up with the money i made from syrup. Never took out loans or got into debt. If i dont have cash i dont buy it. I. Just smart on how i spend my money going out and buying a fancy 50k evaporator wasnt in the cards. I had a 3x12 sold that for 3500 then turned around and bought my 5x16 for 3500$ . The frugal guys are the onnes you will see still in business 10 years from now

[blissville maples]

I got into ut once with blissville. If you think 22$ a gallon is profitable you must be dreaming. Ive been marketing my syrup down south. Mostly selling wholesale 40$ a gallon. To me 22$ a gallon is giving it away. Its not just syrup were people are undercutting people the equipment manufacturers are doing the same think. When you can buy a mes or memprotec RO for 8 grand. When i got my cdl RO 3 years ago i paid 11500 and to see that its now worth 7k because these knockoff companies are selling a new machine for 8k. Its getting bad
Really got raked over the coals on that one huh? Ouch

[blissville maples]

I made 40k in syrup this year. My expenses were fuel for truck and vac pump. Electricity and some help thats it. Whwn i started 7 years ago i started small. Built it up with the money i made from syrup. Never took out loans or got into debt. If i dont have cash i dont buy it. I. Just smart on how i spend my money going out and buying a fancy 50k evaporator wasnt in the cards. I had a 3x12 sold that for 3500 then turned around and bought my 5x16 for 3500$ . The frugal guys are the onnes you will see still in business 10 years from now
Oh wow
So what In the hell are you complaining about??
Your stuff is paid and you can't make money bulk at 22$????

BTW I am talking bulk here, so keep it apples and apples we all already know the 40+ is profitable

[blissville maples]

And you only made 40k on 8k taps??? How much syrup? I would assume 3-3500 gallons?? That's like 13 a gallon if I'm correct

[AdirondackSap]

Im making it thats for sure and expanding. Going to 8k taps got a bigger evaporator im doing well thank you. ROs are supposed to hold there value.

[AdirondackSap]

No im expandingthid year to 8k taps had 3800 this year

[AdirondackSap]

Yes inly a quart per tap got to gt those numbers up. But remeber yes its paid for 22$ is not profitable because after 5 years your equipment is whooped and will have to use that 22k to buy equipment again so how much have yoi made?

[AdirondackSap]

Im not hurting one bit yea maybe not raked over the coals though id rather have my dodge that i get service with than to have a scion.

[blissville maples]

Yes inly a quart per tap got to gt those numbers up. But remeber yes its paid for 22$ is not profitable because after 5 years your equipment is whooped and will have to use that 22k to buy equipment again so how much have yoi made?
Your extremely rough in your equipment, all I can say

What's only good for 5 years???

I'd love to have u on my shoulder for the last 5 of my sugaring seasons, you'd learn alot

[blissville maples]

Yes inly a quart per tap got to gt those numbers up. But remeber yes its paid for 22$ is not profitable because after 5 years your equipment is whooped and will have to use that 22k to buy equipment again so how much have yoi made?
So you don't wanna believe me and knock on me bc I produce a .4 per tap on 70-75 % of my bush to your .25 and you kill your equipment in 5 years

Like I say some can do it other cant

[blissville maples]

No im expandingthid year to 8k taps had 3800 this year
You have a horrible business ethic, you are spending too much and getting too little..... Why in the world would you double your size when you're first 4000 tabs or 3800 you're only getting a .25. would it not make sense to optimize performance there first

[blissville maples]

[QUOTE=AdirondackSap;334610]Im not hurting one bit yea maybe not raked over the coals though id rather have my dodge that i get service with than to have a scion.[/QUOT

Sounds like you.may be the one drinking

[Moser's Maple]

All I know is rumor in the maple circle is blissville's govt employee daddy set him up with everything. But that's just rumor so who knows if it's true.
Another thing that has me scratching my head is I thought I was not awesome, but decent at market but after reading these and other posts I must be way off.
Last thing I know is it's easy to shoot off your mouth when you're hiding behind a forum handle and not a real name
That's all I know, but had to give my .02.

[AdirondackSap]

Little boy you couldnt keep up with me in the woods. Seems like your the jelous one. If me spending money whwn in can afford it and.not get intondebt it horrible business idk what is good business. Boil on a evaporator for 5 years that was already used to begin with. Grates will be warped your arch will have to be retinned not to.mention if you scorch your pan. Trt taking 1000 degree heat for years you would be whooped to. Lol who has a 5x16. **** gets wore out i trade up. Im not sure what more i can do to increase my.numbers. i run 15 inches of vac but some are 3/16 natural. Got to remember weather plays a role. Want more syrup need more taps. You got alot to.learn little one

[AdirondackSap]

I mean 25 inches.

[blissville maples]

All I know is rumor in the maple circle is blissville's govt employee daddy set him up with everything. But that's just rumor so who knows if it's true.
Another thing that has me scratching my head is I thought I was not awesome, but decent at market but after reading these and other posts I must be way off.
Last thing I know is it's easy to shoot off your mouth when you're hiding behind a forum handle and not a real name
That's all I know, but had to give my .02.

No my father never worked for the government, sorry....no my father never set me up........your inner circle is not that accurate.....I'd be interested In what cockroach if any told you something like that- if so tell their nutless butt to keep it censorable, to come and ask if they would like to know what's real and what's not...

Everybody wants to be the first to know something, lol

Was a good story anyway

[blissville maples]

And to have you know, not to brag, I've worked for myself since I was 22....last year my company cleared 330,000 in invoices and I had a 64,000 payroll nd that includes 30k to me.....my average salary coming from the bottom of my first page tax return not some made up # ( for this business) the last 4 years is close to 55,000....

Why don't you Check your mouth

[AdirondackSap]

This thread has gone to far and my blood pressure is through the roof. Take care not playing this game with immature people

[blissville maples]

I'm not hiding bud I run lakes region drywall and I live on blissville Rd in VT....Google it pal I ain't hiding from noone, bring it if ya got it

[blissville maples]

All I know is rumor in the maple circle is blissville's govt employee daddy set him up with everything. But that's just rumor so who knows if it's true.
Another thing that has me scratching my head is I thought I was not awesome, but decent at market but after reading these and other posts I must be way off.
Last thing I know is it's easy to shoot off your mouth when you're hiding behind a forum handle and not a real name
That's all I know, but had to give my .02.

I don't hide I'm not nutless, I'm.not a half man like most of you

[blissville maples]

Ya hit a little nerve....im at 918 f....g blissville Rd poultney VT to be dam precise
Moser your the one hiding in this forum behind your handle now....

[AdirondackSap]

Blissville grow up your acting childish

[blissville maples]

Dude your not even in this conversation, go somewhere, do something

[blissville maples]

As much as we try we're not all civilized human beings I am not childish as u like to call it, can be a little hot-headed at times and I'm getting there now

[AdirondackSap]

You just dont quit i should come just on principle

[blissville maples]

I'm about done with this one, it's pretty simple we don't need be running our mouths about things we CERTAINLY don't know... Hmm hmm Moser

If I see someone that says they make 100 gallons on50 taps it's pretty obvious they lieng and may say something, but this guy knows absolutely nothing, spreading some rumor he heard or something about my supposed finances or anything of the nature and government father what a bunch of bs

[blissville maples]

You just dont quit i should come just on principle
Your so correct I NEVER quit with ANYTHING so be advised

[AdirondackSap]

Remember its a small industry keep it polite and respectful.

[325abn]

Holy Christmas!! LOL

Internet fisticuffs.

[Michael Greer]

I made 125 gallons this year, and sold every drop that wasn't a gift for $50 per gallon. It's all gone now and if I had 30 or so gallons left, I'd raise the price to $52. It was a short year here in Northern New York in the aftermath of last summer's drought, and I predict next year will be short too as the trees have the smallest leaves I've ever seen this spring. Trees that are making tons of seeds aren't making lots of sugar. A 15% shortfall means that the local market is short of supply, and my logic says raise the price in response. Only a fool would work so hard and sell it all cheap. We're making a premium product. Expansion and equipment are terribly expensive, and the equipment suppliers shouldn't be the only ones making money.

[blissville maples]

10-4 exactly......you and I run different operation, every operation costs them a different amount to produce their gallon....it basically got to a point where some doubt what others say and some can't believe or absorb how they could be this profitable or whatever.....in my situation I have 35k investment spread over 7 years that's only 5k a year- really not talking a whole lot so I'm at fairly profitable
Point until I make an investment which may be this year....


I am sorry if one cannot fathom this, I speak of truth with dignity and integrity and everything I need to back it up.


I started this post to try to get a sense of why people think 22 a gallon is not profitable and drives market down as I think otherwise, and maybe help both sides understand the other......but when people doubt what others say it's a useless discussion

[amaranth farm]

...lol you won't see me with stainless sap tank- way better places to put money than sap storage, and cleaning?

Everyone has a process. Where process is impeded by dogma, businesses suffer. It is all fine and well that we wound up here, more or less, because we happen to have an affinity for working outside in all weather conditions, and want to produce something tangible with our hands. That by itself will not pay for taxes and toilet paper. Money does not flow unless product transfers from producer to consumer. You can be a consummate syrup maker, but if you fail to market any, your effort is ephemeral at best and in realtiy a waste of time.

I guess we should be thankful that you are indeed going to fill a demand in the market with your approach. Your business practices, however, are limiting your markets. Yup, I have about as much stainless as one can in this endeavor. While I do use plastic lines to get from tree to tree, then down the hill, once it arrives, it gets stored in stainless. My tank in the processing room is stainless. My pans are welded. My titration station is stainless as is the canner. From there it goes straight into its final glass container. No holding and repackaging. That sells. It does so because those with the most disposable monies at this point are into detail and purity. It is a market you are ignoring. Meanwhile I can compete in it, and yours.

We are in the business of creating a product that is driven by taste. You know what almost every one of my customers say when asked about their experience with Maple packaged in plastic? It ends up taking on container taste or fridge odors penetrate the container and render the syrup less than palatable. I can market as the lowest plastic syrup because only sap comes in contact with it, and only for a markably short period of time. From there it sits in stainless or glass. All this attention to detail translates to market share. Above that, the share of the market it commands is not fickle and therefore results in a stable demand.

Cast aspersions where you like, but in the long run many of the things you rail against are things that could expand your market.

[blissville maples]

I do not like the plastic jugs, after 2-4 months it does take on flavor and lose maple.....I wish glass was feasible price wise, although it breaks... Metal isn't that great either as it can leach iron etc.....even stainless can leach iron unless extremely high quality, although they mill with steel and this cross contaminate the purity of the stainless to a point....

U just brought me to another conclusion about stainless tanks....the sap sits in them for minimal time and then sits in plastic for the majority....seems counter productive

[blissville maples]

Here's one for you so basically I have everything paid for as of 2 year ago......I spent 700 electric, 500 gas, 1000 on taps and sugarhouse supplies, another 500 on jugs, add a 1k for anything I forget and another 200 for coffee

Your gonna love this

It cost me about 4.70 to produce a gallon of syrup- that's with everything paid for and includes only yearly operation costs

[amaranth farm]

U just brought me to another conclusion about stainless tanks....the sap sits in them for minimal time and then sits in plastic for the majority....seems counter productive

Again, not in the big picture. My being able to show that plastic has been minimised through all parts of the process boosts confidence in the buyer that no plastic taste can ever be found in my product. That can make all the difference in getting someone to purchase a product that, let's be honest, is not neccesary for anyone's survival. Syrup is a hedonistic pleasure. Removing uncertainty in that behaviour creates a repeat customer, which translates to a stable market.

As far as glass being affordable, that is a relative question. Once you make a commitment to packaging all in glass you purchase a pallet. In my case, two pallets, one in litres and one in demi-litres. Front ending your capitalisation is not easy, but in the long run it can be a wise decision.

[blissville maples]

U jug all glass?? That would be worth considering if customers didn't mind glass, breakage issue and all, ha e you had any people say anything about the glass as they were buying? ...what does a single liter in glass cost you by the pallet??? I should seriously consider glass as an option, of course I sell 50-80 of 850 gallons in small retail so......

[BAP]

Creative math, you use the same math with your taxes? Pretty easy to fudge figures to make yourself look well in any business.

[amaranth farm]

It cost me about 4.70 to produce a gallon of syrup- that's with everything paid for and includes only yearly operation costs

A gallon you sell for $22 costs you $4.70 to produce. So right off "your" overhead is 21% of your gross. In a standard brick and mortar enterprise your gross is also supposed to pay for the taxes assessed on the processing facility. In our realm this most often is a part of the property taxes associated with personal residence, so it should be expected that part of sales should go toward them. Add that to your accounting. Are you putting nothing away for inevitable need for new equipment? What about the unforeseen apparatus failure? How about expansion?

Your gross is also supposed to provide you with remuneration for your efforts. That seems missing in your calculations. Are you doing this all alone? Your gross is supposed to provide a payment to those who also labored. Now if memory serves you covered this by saying that a barter here and a barter there covers a lot of your labor costs. Beer and finished syrup has a market value. If you buy beer or give away syrup you should have a line accounting for these expenditures. Given that you have omitted all of these actual costs, there are sure to be a few more lurking; and that all adds up.

Now how much of that $22.00 is really making it into your wallet?

[amaranth farm]

U jug all glass?? That would be worth considering if customers didn't mind glass, breakage issue and all, ha e you had any people say anything about the glass as they were buying? ...what does a single liter in glass cost you by the pallet??? I should seriously consider glass as an option, of course I sell 50-80 of 850 gallons in small retail so......

I have never had anyone look twice at glass and wince about the possibility of breakage. Quite the contrary, they are all excited about being able to see the product and the reality that they can nurse it as much as they want and not have to deal with an expensive product becoming unusable.

With shipping from St. Albans a pallet of 1 litre gallone jugs, 420 in quantity or 110 US gallons total capacity, with lids was $1100.00 USD or $2.60 each.

[spud]

But at the end of the day how much money do all of you make per tap after all expenses? All that equipment in the sugar house and the cost to run it seems crazy to me. The man hours in the sugar house alone eats away at profits big time. I sell sap as most of you know. This year I only spent 120 hours of my time sugaring from start to finish. My overall expense this year was $5100 total. My profit was $6.40 per tap. I had 8500 taps this year. I made $453.00 per hour. I really feel I would have made less if I boiled my own sap. I talk to many sugar makers in my area and they all say I'm better off selling sap. They wish they were doing what I'm doing but now their swamped in debt buying all the shinny stuff. I paid for all my sugaring set-up half way through my second year. The price of bulk syrup could drop to $1.00 LB and I'm still making money for doing almost nothing. What am I not seeing? I also buy bulk syrup and sell it for $20 profit per gallon. Why would I want to make the syrup when I can just buy it? The key to successful business is spend as little as possible and make a ton of profit. My CDL dealer say's I'm so cheap I squeak. And yet after all this my wife say's I could do better. I cannot win. :lol:

Spud

[blissville maples]

Spud is correct there, I've said this....it costs money to make the syrup, not collect sap....that may be the thing to do if bulk price does keep going down, I know a guy that buy it all for 30+/- cents a gallon so some do buy quote a bit

[blissville maples]

That's not too bad, 2.60 apiece for glass that is. Only a dollar or so extra, but the flavor difference and storage properties would be worth it

[blissville maples]

I guess if I do math correctly roughly 5.50-6$ per tap profit

[spud]

I guess if I do math correctly roughly 5.50-6$ per tap profit

Thanks for replying Blissville. I have asked many sugar makers this question and most have no idea. As we do the math together we find that the average profit per tap is around $5-8 dollars. I don't see myself setting up shop anytime soon just to make an extra buck per tap at best.

Spud

[blissville maples]

NP.....It's an interesting viewpoint, I'd be interested to hear others...it would give verification and maybe insight as to why some may potentially be relatively more profitable......the GPT syrup total will greatly influence the GPT profit......

[Sunday Rock Maple]

But at the end of the day ......... What am I not seeing? .....

Spud

I can't answer that for you, but for me what I would not be seeing is resolution. The desire or felt need or whatever name they want to use to describe what we look for when we look. And make no mistake, we never stop looking, at the horizon, at a field, at the woods, at a building, at a machine, at a process, at a person, at a picture or in the mirror. We look for completeness, we look for wholeness, we look for understanding -- we look for resolution. It's why most of us find modern art (and I mean no offense here) disturbing -- as resolution is purposefully missing. I've no argument with your math and you've probably found the best way to fit maple into all the other things we must do to make a living in rural America -- this is in no way a negative thing, in fact it's really really good and I hope others can see it and be encouraged to do the same. I however stepped into my Grandfather's steamy shanty and was enchanted, I have walked in my father's steps, I have taught my children. I am resolved.

[spud]

I can't answer that for you, but for me what I would not be seeing is resolution. The desire or felt need or whatever name they want to use to describe what we look for when we look. And make no mistake, we never stop looking, at the horizon, at a field, at the woods, at a building, at a machine, at a process, at a person, at a picture or in the mirror. We look for completeness, we look for wholeness, we look for understanding -- we look for resolution. It's why most of us find modern art (and I mean no offense here) disturbing -- as resolution is purposefully missing. I've no argument with your math and you've probably found the best way to fit maple into all the other things we must do to make a living in rural America -- this is in no way a negative thing, in fact it's really really good and I hope others can see it and be encouraged to do the same. I however stepped into my Grandfather's steamy shanty and was enchanted, I have walked in my father's steps, I have taught my children. I am resolved.

You certainly could answer the question but you choose not too. I think my questions were more business based and not personal. I think it's great that you took over your GrandFather's steamy shanty and that your following in your dad's footsteps. I was talking to a sugar maker just yesterday that has 9800 taps. Three years ago he built a sugar house and loaded it up with the shinny stuff. He pays a once a year $35,000 on his AG loan. He went down all his expenses while scratching his head. In the end he came up with a $2.10 per tap profit for this last season. He got a .42 GPT this year which is very good. In the end he made $20,000. Four years ago he was selling his sap at .40 per gallon. right now he could sell his sap to the same person for .35 a gallon. He could sell 200,000 most years and get a sap check for $70,000 with a profit of about $64,000. Now why would someone choose to make $20,000 when they could have made $64,000 and worked a fourth of the time doing it? I'm hoping my kids walk in my foot steps and not take one step forward and three steps back.

Spud

[BAP]

What you seem to be forgetting Spud, is that by selling sap you are at the mercy of others. Well it has worked out great for you, and I am happy for you that it has, what happens when your buyer decides they don't want to buy from you anymore? While I understand how you are able to do what you do, there is a limited amount of locations that have the same ability to sell as much sap as they can produce. What happens when everyone decides that they can make money selling sap and not boiling? Who's going to boil it? I suspect that most numbers thrown around here about profits and costs are not truely accurate, because most people tend to only include some of the obvious expenses and gloss over others that should be included.

[spud]

I am well aware of the fact that not everyone can sell sap as easy as I can in my area. Although there are more and more sap buyers now then ever before. Smart sap buyers see that their very expensive equipment gets unused for several hours during the sugaring season. Why not run that RO and Evaporator several more hours per day and increase your profits? Mike Farrell from Cornell has a great write-up on this. You are right in saying I am at the mercy of someone else. I could be dropped at anytime and then I would have to make a business decision. Is it not fare to say that someone that chooses to boil their own sap is at the mercy of others also? If bulk price drops to $1.50 half the sugar makers are done. Seeing the downward trend in bulk prices causes me to use much caution in my business decisions. I watch the trends and analyze every aspect of the sugaring industry before I spend another dollar. Business decisions will always have to be made based on current situations. What works today may not work tomorrow. The price of bulk may go up in time but how many sugar maker's will go under before it goes up. For a sugar maker that wants to maximize their profits they need to see if someone in their area would buy their sap and for how much. It could be better for you to let your shinny equipment sit and collect dust and just sell your sap for a while. I have a 24x60 sugar house just waiting to be filled with shinny equipment. The day I can make more money boiling and increase my hourly earnings and earnings per tap I will do it.

Spud

[blissville maples]

It's a form of supply a d demand-- if people stop boiling from low profits then stop selling sal and boil it that's pretty simple choice.....

My numbers are accurate BAP, there's really not that much hidden....if you wanna try to include future upgrades and future replacement of equipment and call these hidden or uncalculated costs, your closing the door in your face. Because upgrades are not necessarily needed and you can't predict equipment failure......there are always those who will make it look unprofitable, by adding more and more nonsense costs that aren't even in the equation....you can make syrup on any cheap ole equipment- cheaply.....if you want to play the super efficient game i.e gasification evaporator, all hooded up, stainless this and that- that's going to cost ya.....to each their own, but again some don't wanna believe others number because it doesn't for onto their format and they can't see how it's possible- it's really too bad people are this way.......like one of my buddies said he was getting 2000 gals a day on 600 taps- Yea I don't get that out of mine, I didnt wanna believe it, but I know​ ow he's not lying​

[blissville maples]

I can't answer that for you, but for me what I would not be seeing is resolution. The desire or felt need or whatever name they want to use to describe what we look for when we look. And make no mistake, we never stop looking, at the horizon, at a field, at the woods, at a building, at a machine, at a process, at a person, at a picture or in the mirror. We look for completeness, we look for wholeness, we look for understanding -- we look for resolution. It's why most of us find modern art (and I mean no offense here) disturbing -- as resolution is purposefully missing. I've no argument with your math and you've probably found the best way to fit maple into all the other things we must do to make a living in rural America -- this is in no way a negative thing, in fact it's really really good and I hope others can see it and be encouraged to do the same. I however stepped into my Grandfather's steamy shanty and was enchanted, I have walked in my father's steps, I have taught my children. I am resolved.
I guess I missed something?? What problems are you resolving

[southfork]

Good post Spud. Whether we like it or not, there may be too much stainless in the industry. IMO, local and regional processing facilities will become more common over the next twenty years, this is already happening. In my larger bush I have done exactly what you outlined, stopped processing other than RO. Now selling sap, concentrate, or leasing my taps to others if the demand is there. I think this is an option, especially for many mid level producers, mainly those larger than a hobby. I am not saying this model is always more profitable, but in my experience requires much less of a financial investment and time commitment. Just an option for some to consider.

[markcasper]

it's really too bad people are this way.......like one of my buddies said he was getting 2000 gals a day on 600 taps- Yea I don't get that out of mine, I didnt wanna believe it, but I know​ ow he's not lying​

Yes I believe it because I routinely have flow rates like that. When you tap carefully, don't overtap and keep up on the leaks pronto.....3.3 GPD is easy to achieve routinely.

[blissville maples]

Good post Spud. Whether we like it or not, there may be too much stainless in the industry. IMO, local and regional processing facilities will become more common over the next twenty years, this is already happening. In my larger bush I have done exactly what you outlined, stopped processing other than RO. Now selling sap, concentrate, or leasing my taps to others if the demand is there. I think this is an option, especially for many mid level producers, mainly those larger than a hobby. I am not saying this model is always more profitable, but in my experience requires much less of a financial investment and time commitment. Just an option for some to consider.
You sell your sap even if you have all the equipment to make Syrup just sitting there, it's still feasible to sell the syrup with 20k in equipment sitting around...really not too hard standing there watching money pour out of the evaporator......

Maybe I'm missing something

[blissville maples]

Alot of folks talk about blood sweat and tears......I dunno it's really not that hard, fix and tap for a week or two, then drive around pump sap bring it home pump it around from tank to RO to another tank, then feed wood into a fire pit......not hard work just takes time

[markcasper]

Alot of folks talk about blood sweat and tears......I dunno it's really not that hard, fix and tap for a week or two, then drive around pump sap bring it home pump it around from tank to RO to another tank, then feed wood into a fire pit......not hard work just takes time There is only 24 hours in a day though.....and if you have another job, well.............

[spud]

You sell your sap even if you have all the equipment to make Syrup just sitting there, it's still feasible to sell the syrup with 20k in equipment sitting around...really not too hard standing there watching money pour out of the evaporator......

Maybe I'm missing something

In most cases your watching LESS money pour out of the evaporator. You said in a past post that you make $5.50-6.00 per tap and your numbers are accurate. I'm making $6.40 per tap selling sap. If you had someone in your area pay the same as I get for my sap it would have been better to just sell your sap and let your equipment collect dust. You would save a few hundred work hours and make more money. Your savings would be $2000-4000. That was the point I was trying to make. If sugar maker's sat down and crunched the numbers they may find selling their sap is a better route to take. Depending on the size of a persons operation they may find if they spent more time in the woods maintaining 27-28 inches of vacuum they would make more money. Although if they have to boil then in most cases their spending less time in the woods. The money is made in the woods not the sugar house.

Spud

[markcasper]

In most cases your watching LESS money pour out of the evaporator. You said in a past post that you make $5.50-6.00 per tap and your numbers are accurate. I'm making $6.40 per tap selling sap. If you had someone in your area pay the same as I get for my sap it would have been better to just sell your sap and let your equipment collect dust. You would save a few hundred work hours and make more money. Your savings would be $2000-4000. That was the point I was trying to make. If sugar maker's sat down and crunched the numbers they may find selling their sap is a better route to take. Depending on the size of a persons operation they may find if they spent more time in the woods maintaining 27-28 inches of vacuum they would make more money. Although if they have to boil then in most cases their spending less time in the woods. The money is made in the woods not the sugar house.

Spud How confident are you that this kind of deal will continue long term?

[BAP]

Another point to consider on selling sap is that if too many people start doing it, then the market could get flooded and drive the price of sap down.

[Maplewalnut]

Another point to consider on selling sap is that if too many people start doing it, then the market could get flooded and drive the price of sap down.

Ahhh, I was waiting for someone to bring this up. Its all linear to the price per gallon of finished syrup. May take a little bit of time to catch up but what you are getting per gallon of sap now obviously will not be the same in the future if finshed syrup prices continue to drop. And if more producers sell sap in the future, I can pick my price and who I buy sap from...same as how packers do it now with finished syrup

[blissville maples]

In most cases your watching LESS money pour out of the evaporator. You said in a past post that you make $5.50-6.00 per tap and your numbers are accurate. I'm making $6.40 per tap selling sap. If you had someone in your area pay the same as I get for my sap it would have been better to just sell your sap and let your equipment collect dust. You would save a few hundred work hours and make more money. Your savings would be $2000-4000. That was the point I was trying to make. If sugar maker's sat down and crunched the numbers they may find selling their sap is a better route to take. Depending on the size of a persons operation they may find if they spent more time in the woods maintaining 27-28 inches of vacuum they would make more money. Although if they have to boil then in most cases their spending less time in the woods. The money is made in the woods not the sugar house.

Spud

U have apoint about dedicating more time to maintain 27-28"........ sometimes boiling can keep you from that....( I'm investing this year in a rig to take me from 55gph evap to 160, hoping to gain time in woods). I tell.my dad this as he always wants get boiling and sometimes I put it off an HR to go fix a leak, have to have sap to make money!!

[blissville maples]

Little boy you couldnt keep up with me in the woods. Seems like your the jelous one. If me spending money whwn in can afford it and.not get intondebt it horrible business idk what is good business. Boil on a evaporator for 5 years that was already used to begin with. Grates will be warped your arch will have to be retinned not to.mention if you scorch your pan. Trt taking 1000 degree heat for years you would be whooped to. Lol who has a 5x16. **** gets wore out i trade up. Im not sure what more i can do to increase my.numbers. i run 15 inches of vac but some are 3/16 natural. Got to remember weather plays a role. Want more syrup need more taps. You got alot to.learn little one

U will.never keep up with me that's a fact that will never change, I don't know you but I'm a very rare breed- u won't keep up guaranteed, anytime u wanna try lemme know, seriously I'll out work you every step of way, and when your tried and whooped I'll be cranking up my animal instinct and keep going....lol u wish, never met anyone who can keep up with me, wether it be cutting wood, hanging rock, fighting, tapping, roofing......u ain't got it pal....btw your pan never hits 1000 degrees, the firbox yes, but never the metal.....little one..... ur funny u may be carrying alot more weight around than me but pound for pound I'm like a big block V8 to your small block after you strip all the junk off it!!! Talkers I love em

[maple flats]

I've stayed out of this discussion until now but I find too many issues to ignore. blissville, your math is seriously flawed. Having a degree in business and a minor in business accounting you are only scratching the surface on your stated expenses. Look at the income tax form 1040 schedule F, (farm profit/loss). Uncle Sam doesn't allow all of those deductions out of kindness towards farmers. Whether you calculate it or not, depreciation is a real and huge expense. Things wear out, the truck you drive, the roof on the shack, the lights in the shack, the evaporator, the filter, the bottler, the vacuum pumps, and everything you use in production. Yes, you may buy them and pay that cost off over 1-2 or 3 years in your math, but that does not show depreciation which is how you have money at least in theory to replace or repair it when needed. Property taxes, I'll skip because others mentioned them. What about insurance, truck, shack, product? What if a customer sues you? Even if you win, you lose thousands and without insurance you are putting your entire family at risk for some cash in your pocket now. Who does your taxes? If it is you, with all the flaws in your calculations you are paying far too many taxes and if it is all under the table, well, they frown on that.
You said you pay $500 a year for jugs/bottles, you certainly have found a far cheaper source than I've found or you are packing in used containers which if not illegal there it opens a huge liability.
I pack about 90% of my product in retail containers and sell about 80% of that in retail, the rest packed in retail is sold wholesale. Last year I paid well over $1000 in containers, in fact closer to $2000 on sales of less than you claim to sell.
bliss is wonderful but you are dreaming! Keep thinking you are making a big profit, until you run out of cash. Good luck at any rate,

[spud]

How confident are you that this kind of deal will continue long term?

Thats a great question and nobody really has the answer. This is why I'm saying that for some producers it might be better (at this time ) to sell their sap and let the dust collect on their shinny equipment. What I'm not saying is to sell your shinny equipment. If your still making payments on your equipment then profit should be your number one concern. The more profit you have the faster you will pay off your equipment. This is why some have chosen to buy sap. They have a very large investment and they do not want to see their equipment sitting idle for several hours a day during the sugaring season.

BAP- As of now the price of sap is based on the bulk price of syrup. The range is anywhere from 50%-70%. The average being 60-65%. If the vast majority of smaller producers like myself all sold their sap to the few big operations in their area it is possible that those big boys could drop the sap prices. I'm confident that if the big boy's thought of doing that one would step forward and continue paying the causing the others to change their minds. And if that did not happen then people would just start boiling their own sap again.

Spud

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Spud,
You're getting over a $1/lb for raw sap?

[spud]

Spud,
You're getting over a $1/lb for raw sap?

Yes $1.45LB (Organic).

Spud

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Wow, good for you. That's 4x what a sap seller I know was offered around here. He has about 2000 taps, never bothered to even tap in this year. Amazing how much it varies.

[PerryFamily]

I've stayed out of this discussion until now but I find too many issues to ignore. blissville, your math is seriously flawed. Having a degree in business and a minor in business accounting you are only scratching the surface on your stated expenses. Look at the income tax form 1040 schedule F, (farm profit/loss). Uncle Sam doesn't allow all of those deductions out of kindness towards farmers. Whether you calculate it or not, depreciation is a real and huge expense. Things wear out, the truck you drive, the roof on the shack, the lights in the shack, the evaporator, the filter, the bottler, the vacuum pumps, and everything you use in production. Yes, you may buy them and pay that cost off over 1-2 or 3 years in your math, but that does not show depreciation which is how you have money at least in theory to replace or repair it when needed. Property taxes, I'll skip because others mentioned them. What about insurance, truck, shack, product? What if a customer sues you? Even if you win, you lose thousands and without insurance you are putting your entire family at risk for some cash in your pocket now. Who does your taxes? If it is you, with all the flaws in your calculations you are paying far too many taxes and if it is all under the table, well, they frown on that.
You said you pay $500 a year for jugs/bottles, you certainly have found a far cheaper source than I've found or you are packing in used containers which if not illegal there it opens a huge liability.
I pack about 90% of my product in retail containers and sell about 80% of that in retail, the rest packed in retail is sold wholesale. Last year I paid well over $1000 in containers, in fact closer to $2000 on sales of less than you claim to sell.
bliss is wonderful but you are dreaming! Keep thinking you are making a big profit, until you run out of cash. Good luck at any rate,

Thank you Dave. I always look forward to you well thought out , level headed responses. Hope all is well

[spud]

Wow, good for you. That's 4x what a sap seller I know was offered around here. He has about 2000 taps, never bothered to even tap in this year. Amazing how much it varies.

That only figures to .16% bulk price. I do not blame him for not tapping. Maine's sugaring is growing very fast. In short time you will see producers wanting to buy others sap and pay a very fair price.

Spud

[blissville maples]

U can't fix stupid....one point I spent d 500 on jugs-- I sell 750 gals in 40 gal stainless barrel, I don't need to buy 2000$ in jugs. I buy 4 cases sometimes 5....bottler, no I do t use one--- customer Sue's me, lol your crazy and will never make money and if you do you will find a way to make it seem that you have this expense or that expense.... someone like you is looking for a loss on their taxes every year.......I will never run out of cash cause I'm a business man, I make it..... again you'll never understand....btw my account does all my taxes... Feels good to be one of the few actually making money.......so if you work for your business firm, or GE or whatever wherever and drive a 50k automobile, do u depreciate your rig into your 45 per hour pay or whatever you make and chop that down to 20?? Do you figure your clothes in, your matching 401 k, your lunches, the cost of doing your hair and shaving, do you figure in your cologne, and deodorant... Mine as well include tooth paste and brush.....your 45 an hour just dwindled.....and even if I did have to include some of that stuff, I'd still be in the plus, so nice try to all who have tries to not believe it's profitable..... again leave it for the more profitable ones who have it figured out, like how many times should we bail them out, if they can't show a + then give it up why should tax payers who already are overcharged pay to bail out an OVER PAID CEOs and buy overpriced automobile

[blissville maples]

Some producers, smaller than me, have twice as much invested in their operation, as I said I have 35000$ invested over 7 years, I've reaped 55-57k in syrup sales since then.....this next year I'll jump from 822 gals to 1200 for an investment of 4-6 thousand adding 1200 taps(same pump). And I'll make an extra minimum 400 gals at 22.00 that's 8k will pay for the capital investment in a single season

[blissville maples]

My first year ever on my 3x10 I did 1400 taps containers stores that is built the Sugar House for 2500 bought an evaporator used for $2,800, filter press from year prior, and made 360 gals 8000k. It cost me$16,000 to boil my first season my first season on a big rig that is and I recouped half of it that year the following years I've added vacuum and all kinds of goodies relatively cheap and just look at my last post it speaks for itself

[blissville maples]

Containers, storage container that is.......I love autocorrect

[BAP]

Apparently the new owners of this site have no interest in it. Otherwise they would way in about letting threads getting into mud slinging and pure BS. It's a shame, Kim and Chris developed a good site. This particular thread has degraded into one persons vendetta against everyone else on the forum.

[blissville maples]

No it's about you guys, not believing and leaving someone alone and trying to tell them over and over "your forgetting expenses". I'm simply not backing down , believe me or don't but don't keep telling me I'm leaving this out or that or I don't know this or that......u should be looking to others for why they are more profitable.... Adirondack replace equipment every 5 years, maybe instead of be mad at me ask someone why his equipment is shot after 5 years, dont you think that plays a big roll in profitability?

[blissville maples]

So this forum should only be for people who agree in your opinion? Boy wouldn't that make the world easy, segregated into alike groups of people

[n8hutch]

Bliss here's a little math using your #s

57k gross profit
35k investment
22k net not figuring an expenses
1500 taps = 14.00 per tap
7 years ÷ by 14 dollars = 2 Dollars per tap
That's 3k a year, no labor ,no expenses , no nothing, where all the money I'm confused, again I used your #s on these threads.

[markcasper]

Blissville, My job in town keeps paying more every year, why don't we all just quit?

[Clinkis]

Stop feeding the Troll.......this thread has become laughable and, besides good entertainment value, is no longer contributing anything constructive and it's just going to get worse. Save your bandwidth

[DrTimPerkins]

Thread is closed.