Retapping Reaearch Results 2017

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

This was referred to recently in a post in the WV Annual Association Meeting. I had 5 producers participate in a retapping research experiment during the 2017 season. I was able to roll up all of this info into a PowerPoint presentation and presented it during the annual meeting two weeks ago. We saw some incredible results from this and it was producers with anywhere from 440 taps to 4,000+ taps. I know Dr Perkins and I will disagree on retapping but with the results we seen I think this will be huge going forward. Without presenting all the info I will put results from one producer on here. No one hit it out of the park down south due to one of the warmest seasons on record but retapping sure made a big difference. See results below:

Producer with 2,900 taps on vacuum pump 24 to 25 inches and using all CV1(check valve adapters). Tapped 20th to 22nd January and tapped had almost completely stopped by March 7th. During this time he produced about 720 gallons of syrup. He retapped from March 10th to 13th and from March 19th to 26th he made approximately 330 more gallons. By the time he started retapping the sap had completely stopped. It was frozen up from March 14 to 18th and there was no sap flow.

Each of the producers tapped about .5" deeper in the existing taphole and DID NOT drill a new Hole. One interesting note about this producer his check valves stopped running when the control woods which was my woods had all the taps still running with all non check valve clear poly carbonate signature spouts. He did tap about 10 days earlier and is 5 to 10 degrees colder than my control woods. The 10 days earlier he tapped most of these days were cold and there would have been little to promote taphole closure. All of the control woods was on 3/16 natural vacuum on 5 different properties.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

We will continue to work more on this in the future as we look for ways to maximize production while maintaining tree health. Due to the warm weather one of the huge benefits we found from this is a lot of the spouts and/or tap holes had a large chunk of white or pink yeast in them. During retapping this removes all of this out of the taphole and you can snap whip the spout against the tree and remove it out of the spout also. So this was a big improvement for sap quality because the sap was not instantly contaminated with this.

Some of the conclusions we found from this experiment is that the producers running check valves didn't seem to gain very little if any benefit from them. During initial tapping the taphole should be 3/4 to 1 inch on smaller trees and 1.25 to 1.5 inches on larger trees. This will allow producers to obtain the best benefit from retapping.

As with move forward I will be working with Dr. Mike Reichlan who has taught Maple syrup classes and done a lot of research over the years. He is now retired and continues to be involved in the maple industry. I know some may disagree but with tapping shallower initially I don't think there will be any harm to the trees if you are using conservative tapping guidelines to start with.

[DrTimPerkins]

Interesting. I'll have a longer reply next week when I am back at my computer. Tough to write a complete response on a phone.

[BAP]

The one thing that comes to my mind is that maybe the holes weren't drilled deep enough to begin with? 3/4"-1" is a little shallow.

[spud]

Been there done that. If you start the season drilling that extra 1/2 inch and run 28 inches of vac instead of 24 you would have made 275 more gallons of syrup. That would have put you at a .45 GPT. The first half of the sugaring season gives you the most sugar so why wait till the second half to go a 1/2 inch deeper? You and I could re-tap our trees till the bit comes out the other side and we are still not going to beat Dr. Tim at PMRC. Keep in mind if Dr. Tim re-tapped their woods and drilled 1/2 inch deeper they would be at .80+ GPT. PMRC worst year in the last 15 is still over .5 GPT and they don't re-tap.

Spud

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

The one thing that comes to my mind is that maybe the holes weren't drilled deep enough to begin with? 3/4"-1" is a little shallow.

1" tapping depth would be a 9 to 12 inch tree to allow for deeper tapping if a producer chooses to re-tap and 1.5" on a larger tree. One a year where the weather stays cool the entire season, retapping may not be necessary and May Not provide much benefit. On the CONTROL WOODS, we had 27 of the 52 day season the temperatures were higher than 50 degrees with many days in the 60's and 70's. It is the warmest season I can ever remember with the third week in February we had 8 days with no freezing and high temperatures(50's, 60's & 70's). We will continue to do more research on this in the future to get a better handle on how large the benefit will be.

One thing to remember, is that the one producer's numbers I listed above his check valves had completely stopped at .248 gpt. After going 1/2" deeper, he was able to get to .362 gpt which is a large increase in syrup considering he basically retails all of his syrup, that was approximately another $ 20,000 in retail syrup which is quite a bit for a 2,900 tap producer.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

One reason for this research is that the weather has not been kind for 3 years in a row now with lots of excessive high temperatures during the season in the southern part of the maple region. I think there is a need for this kind of research to maximize production. At the CONTROL WOODS, we made about 27% of an average crop after retapping. Would we have made some syrup, yes the taps were still flowing some but it would haven't been anywhere near the amount we produced. Would it have been table grade syrup, not likely due to the large amount of spouts and tapholes with large chunks of pink and white yeast in them contaminating the sap the instant it came out of the tree.

I'm not saying that everyone should start doing this every year, just presenting information that could have been helpful with producers in the lower 50% of the the maple region this year and other years. This is why we are where we are today because with every project, someone takes the lead. There were other producers in other states that experimented with this also this year and seen good results, but since I couldn't roll up accurate numbers, I did not include them in the results.

I realize this kind of information will generate some criticism, but so has a lot of other research. This is intended to help others if they would chose to use it to maximize production.

[buckeye gold]

This weather trend is exactly why I went to splitting my woods and fall/early winter tapping and then tapping another set in regular season. I think this is a strategy that best fits those of us in the more southern maple range, as we see more impact from wild warm spells. Some years we see very little if any frozen ground and minimal snow cover. Our woods are different creatures. In my area those who have insisted on staying with traditional tapping seasons have suffered some pretty poor production in recent years. For three years running at least half of my syrup has come from early taps, if I could stay with them and not abandon them in mid January I would definitely make more syrup. I could run my regulars woods taps and keep the early ones as supplement and boost overall production. what I generally see is these early taps get subjected to way more high temperatures and close. So I find the premise very interesting if it would extend the life of those early taps.

[spud]

I love to read about experiments and I'm not criticizing you for doing it. I have done re-tapping, Reaming and Fall tapping experiments in the past. Some have done good and some not so good. I just think that if you started out drilling the extra 1/2 inch and running higher vacuum you would reach max production for any giving season. Weather will always be a factor where some years are just going to be better then others. I have found that re-tapping is not the way to go. Shorter lateral lines with three taps max and vacuum at 27-28 with properly sized mainline will give you max production. There was one thing that seemed a bit odd to me. You said you started tapping in on January 22nd and that seems way late for your area. I tap earlier than that to get some early runs and to beat the deep snow that tends to come in February and March. I live on the border of Canada and you are 700 miles South of me. It seems that if you tapped the first week of December you too could catch some early runs that would increase your GPT for the season. Could you explain why you tap so late? No tap holes dry up in six weeks unless you tap way late.A CV2 spout will out last every other spout in the woods and I think PMRC and Cornell have proven that.

Spud

[markcasper]

Reaming tapholes has been tried and written about numerous times over the years. The overall consensus in everything that I have ever read was that it simply wasn't worth it in more ways than one. Not trying to be critical! I honestly cannot believe that there was pink and white mold, bacterial growth in the holes and spouts, and by simply reaming the crap turned back to gold. The syrup after this most likely had some kind of off flavor to it? You are now a cdl dealer and of course will be critical of the checkvalves! I had a prominent person once tell me I was wasting my money with checkvalves and to buy their brand. Now, this person does not sell that kind and sells a different kind, well what in haides happened there??

The checks have always worked for me, and in fact the clear checks are always the only ones going yet when I am pulling taps. Explain that to me please.

Think at this point in time, more efforts and time needs to be spent on marketing product, not making more of a surplus.

[markcasper]

One interesting note about this producer his check valves stopped running when the control woods which was my woods had all the taps still running with all non check valve clear poly carbonate signature spouts. All of the control woods was on 3/16 natural vacuum on 5 different properties.

Was the tubing brand new?

Droplines?

North facing? South facing?

Was all the drilling of holes done by yourself?

And the same questions would be for your 2900 tap participant as well. All the things listed above can make a day and night differnece in determing how long it'll run.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Spud I tapped 2nd to 4th of February this year. Most years it's too cold here to make syrup in December and January. The producer above I referred to tapped in January 20th to 22nd.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

As far as check valves it did not say they were a bad idea I stated that the 2 producers that used them seen little if any benefit from them. The one referred to above that tapped last 10 days of January has taps quit running before 10th of March with all check valves.

Yes the syrup was good syrup after retapping, not off flavored or commercial.

That is why this was a RETAPPING not reaming. I don't think reaming will provide very little benefit.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

As far as tubing probably 95% of experimental properties of it wasn't new or new drops.

[markcasper]

Each of the producers tapped about .5" deeper in the existing taphole and DID NOT drill a new Hole. .

Ok Brandon, now if they did not drill a new hole then I don't consider that a retap. It was a 1/2" reamed out hole is what you guys did.

You are correct, you did not say the checks were a bad idea, my apology. However, I picked up an awful strong hint of "signature" clear spouts.
I buy some of everything.....I had black cv'1's, staright clear seaonal spouts, and CV2's, and as spud said, these outperform and last longer than anything i have ever used, and i have seen it happen year after year.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I think what has been referred to in past as "reaming" was simply "wallowing" out Taphole or running bit in out 2 to 3 times to clean out Hole without going any deeper. Signature spouts was simply referred to as what was used in control woods. 2 of the 5 properties had check valves was reason these were mentioned. This is in no way an endorsement of any one company's product or a slander another company's product. Just simply presenting what spouts were used in 3 if the 5 properties.

I think the key is going 1/2" deeper and I'll post some more results here later this afternoon when I get back on computer as I don't have all of the exact info on my phone.

[BAP]

Another thing to consider in analyzing data, the only real way to have a "control woods " is split up a section of the same woods. Using one persons woods as control and another persons woods as a test isn't a good test. You also need to use the exact same equipment to eliminate any difference in equipment as being a variable.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

One of the test woods produced 22.27 GPT from 02/05 until 03/08. Due to the extreme hot weather the tapholes dried up and no sap ran FOR THE NEXT 13 DAYS. 200 holes were retapped on 03/21 and from 03/22 until 03/25(4 days) the producer got another 7.55 GPT. This was from holes that hadn't ran in 13 days.

Obviously I nor anyone else can duplicate the detailed research that Cornell or Proctor does and I make not claim to even pretend to come close. This was some of the very interesting results we seen and I felt it was something that would benefit others. This is in no way intended to create controversy, just some information I spent quite a while working on.

Maybe in the future we can get Dr Abby van den Berg back down here close to her home area and have the kind of detailed research that Proctor has, but until then we will look for ways to help others on a much smaller and less detailed scale.

[spud]

Spud I tapped 2nd to 4th of February this year. Most years it's too cold here to make syrup in December and January. The producer above I referred to tapped in January 20th to 22nd.

Brandon- I am struggling to believe that you cannot get some sap runs in December and January. I have gotten sap in mid January several times. I have to believe that a person living 700 miles South of me is getting a few sunny days with highs in the 40s-50s both in December and January. Is your woods North facing and sees no sun? I am willing to bet you could have gotten 4-7 GPT more had you tapped December 1st. That would have been top quality sap testing 2% or better.

Spud

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Yes, some years we could. This year we had close to 10 days in row too hot for syrup in January and guys who tapped before it paid dearly with a disaster season. About the warmest winter on record, most years it's too cold.

[DrTimPerkins]

Hi Brandon,

Sorry it took a few days to get back to you. I was away and only had my phone to check email and MapleTrader, so didn't feel like responding in that way.

First I'd like to say that the original question is very important and interesting. Sugarmakers know that there are two seasons....fall and spring. But only the spring season has been utilized. As the climate warms (regardless of why), the season is getting compressed at the ends, with the two season peaks moving closer together. Whether it is possible to tap in the fall and have a viable taphole in the spring is a question that I've pondered and mentioned to many people for several years now, but just haven't yet had the time or funding to do (there are always more projects to do than time or resources allow). I would be very interested in doing this study across a geographical gradient that included southern sites. I'm really only interested in doing research if it is done properly and can answer questions with some degree of certainty....and if it can be completed before I retire.

In terms of the original message you conveyed, several posters have noted the same issues that I had. Chief among these is that there was really no adequate control (for comparison purposes). When we do research, the first thing we do is to make sure we have strong controls. This not only allows us to detect smaller changes, but also allows us to isolate the single variable causing the response. In addition, it allows us to say statistically (within a certain degree of confidence) whether what we observe is likely to be real and caused by the variable in question, occurred simply due to chance, or was within the error of the observation. It doesn't seem like those factors were included in your "research." Please don't misunderstand me....I think the goal of your project was interesting and worthy of study, and that the results are interesting, but I object to calling this work "research" and don't place a lot of value on it for decision-making purposes.

When doing "research", having a good and examinable question is the first thing. In your case, I think you probably had a good question (does "retapping" or "reaming") help? However, there are some questions of definitions and semantics. Reaming usually refers to tapping with a wider bit, and may or may not include drilling deeper. Retapping is putting a new hole in the tree. What you seem to have done is "reaming" with a deeper taphole, not "retapping."

Why is having a good control important? First, you need to have something to compare to. Comparing one sugarbush to another isn't a decent control. Perhaps if you have 15 of one type and 15 of another type it would work, but what you've done is more like comparing apples and shoe brushes. Why? First, the sites were tapped at different times. They were also tapped with different spouts in terms of color and in terms of composition -- one seems to have been a black nylon and one is a clear or light-colored polycarbonate. Black spouts will always outperform light-colored spouts in cold years and perform much worse in hot sunny seasons. Polycarbonate tends to stick better in the tree and thus hold vacuum better. Either of those factors could contribute somewhat to the differences you observed and seemed to ascribe solely to the fact that one was a CV and the other was not. Were they all tapped in the same orientation? Were the droplines all the same age and composition and had been cleaned in the same way by the same people? Were all the taps made at the same height? Same tappers doing the work? Same tapping bit at the same depth? Same vacuum? Same releasers? Same diameter trees? As you know, 1" Hg difference in vacuum means 5-7% difference in sap yield. Similarly, 1" difference in diameter means about 2 gal difference in sap production, and does also affect sugar content? Sounds like you had some producers on pumped vacuum and some on natural vacuum? Was vacuum continuously measured so you know what it was? Was leak checking at each of the sites EXACTLY the same? When we do research, we ensure that as many things as we can possibly control are all identical. Otherwise it is quite easy to see a 25% difference in sap yield, but have it NOT be statistically significant due to the high number of factors affecting sap yield and the degree of variability we find. Unfortunately doing GOOD research is neither easy, nor cheap.

You also don't have good control even within the site that used CVs. You changed the parameters in the entire site halfway through. How much more would those taps have run if you hadn't reamed? You might think they'd stopped, but you will never really know since it wasn't measured. Was it just poor weather that caused the reduced flow, or was it clogging? You cannot tell. The better approach would have been to have two (or better yet, a bunch of) separate lines at that site and reamed half of them and not reamed the other half. Then you'd have a good idea of how that one factor (reaming vs not reaming) affected sap yield. Unfortunately, doing that might have meant a loss in sap for the producer. That is why dedicated research centers are important -- we can do things that might cost us sap production because the value for us in in the research, so we don't need to make those sorts of compromises and jeopardize doing good research.

There are undoubtedly MANY possible factors that contributed to the results you found. I don't think you can really subscribe them to any one thing. Moreover, you suggest that this was an unusually warm season (warmest winter on record). That is why GOOD research also takes time. We typically don't like to talk about one year worth of results....and especially don't like to talk about them or more firm conclusions if it is an unusual year until we get some replication. Replication is another important facet of GOOD research. This is both replication in terms of experimental units (number of trees or number of study sites depending upon how the experiment is set up) and replication in terms of whether or not we observe the same results from one season to the next (we all know that each maple season is a little different from prior years). It appears to me that you have neither type of replication....again, why I don't really consider your project to be "research."

Finally, as others have pointed out, you are a dealer for a company that doesn't sell CVs. I have no problem with that, but it is worth mentioning that all the actual studies that have been done by actual researchers have shown that CVs do what it is claimed they do. CDL sponsored two studies by Centre Acer. The first found no difference in yield, but the study had serious design flaws. When repeated correctly, they did find a significant positive effect of CVs. Admittedly, there hasn't been any research done in the southern fringe of maple production, so the inference may not extend to that area completely for unknown reasons. There's no reason to believe that is true, but we cannot discount it since it hasn't been actually studied there (limitations of inference is another important factor in scientific research).

Getting more sap is really not the important question. We know some things that could be done that would get HUGE amounts of sap....but they aren't practical or economical to do in the real world. What is most important to most producers is getting the highest net profit. If you repeat your project, it might be interesting to also factor in the time and cost of "reaming" into the equation.

So again, your results are interesting....just not what I consider "research" and certainly don't definitively answer any question. Don't take that as an insult....not at all my intention. GOOD science isn't cheap or easy and understanding all the things involved in doing GOOD field research takes a lot of training and experience to accomplish. I would be very happy to chat with you about how to do a more appropriate study and perhaps in cooperating with Dr. Mike Rechlin (note spelling of his name) to do some research if we can find funding to do so.

Cheers.

[mountainvan]

I retapped/reamed for many years before invention of antimicrobial spouts and cv spouts. I did ream 100 trees the end of March and it did increase the sapflow.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Dr Tim,

I take no offense to what you say and I totally understand and always enjoy reading your research and appreciate everything you have done. I do have a degree but it is in math, not in science and I don't have but a small percentage of the maple knowledge you have. I understand fully what you said and reason the term "retapping" was used instead of reaming is because of most have tried reaming which is just making hole larger without going deeper with hardly any success over the years. Yes, it may improve flow for a day or two, but not long term. The one sugarbush I referred to at the start of this thread with CV1s wasn't getting hardly any sap with 24 to 25 inches of vacuum after a freeze, thus I assume it was safe to say the holes weren't going to run anymore as he ran the vacuum pump for a couple of days. Going forward, I will refer to this as "redrilling" instead of retapping.

Obviously, we didn't have anywhere near the controls you had in place nor can me take the procedures you do, but we got the ball rolling in the right direction. Will this work every year, we intend to find out as we pursue this more into the future. We will likely try tapping even earlier next year with some and may try to "redrill" holes deeper about 70% of the way through the season on some of the areas. Obviously I think this would help play into hands of the ones who want to do some fall tapping to tap in late fall and "redrill" deeper in the spring. Will this be the best way to maximize production above all other methods, we don't know but we will continue to try different things.

I apologize for the mis-spelling on the title of the post as I posted all of it from my Iphone sitting on my deck, thus I can understand why you didn't want to respond. As far as check valves, I have read probably everything that has been posted on them and my point was that I was surprised that they stopped running as quickly as they did and I didn't say they don't provide benefit, but they didn't seem to show it this year. Keep in mind the temperatures we seen this year dried up holes quickly. I do agree with you that poly carbonate spouts are the best for leak prevention and maintaining seal throughout the season. We don't make any claims to be "experts" like Proctor or Cornell but I always enjoy talking the experts from each place. I felt this was useful information that others may want to try and see some of the results since it was referred on the forum a couple weeks before I started this thread.

[DrTimPerkins]

I retapped/reamed for many years before invention of antimicrobial spouts and cv spouts. I did ream 100 trees the end of March and it did increase the sapflow.

I recall your saying that. There is no question it can increase sapflow to some extent. The question is what is the best approach (reaming larger or drilling deeper) is the best, and whether it is economical to do so. I do think it is something worthy of further research....just haven't yet had the time or funding to do so.

[spud]

I guess the question I have is what is better. Tap full depth right from the start or add an extra 1/2 inch to the tap hole mid way through the season. What really interest me is that PMRC has experimented with over sized tubing and fittings ( kinda eliminating lateral lines ) and had gotten 40+ GPT. I was told this by a salesman at Leader a few years back. It is said that the cost is way to much to set a woods up this way making it more profitable. I would love to hear more on this.

WestVirginiamaple It is fun to read about your experiment and I would enjoy reading more about it in the years to come. It just took me by surprise that your area is so cold in Dec-Jan. You must be way up in the hills. Whats your elevation? What way is your woods facing? I have learned from this Thread so thank you for starting it.

Spud

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Spud,

Thanks for the kind words as I spend a lot of time helping others and really enjoy it a lot and I think this is the kind of information we can benefit from. I have tried "reaming" holes a couple times in the past 28 years and it was a complete waste of time. I'm referring to running a bit in and out of the hole without going any deeper. I think the key is to go least 1/2" deeper, it's almost like a new 1/2" fresh taphole.

My elevation is 2400' to 2900' and I about half of the trees are north facing and most of the rest are East facing and some south facing.

We have producers in the state with trees anywhere from 700' to 4,600', yes that is NOT a typo. We have such a vast difference in terrain and elevation across the state that this kind of research can be a big benefit to producers when we had the warmest maple season in the last 30 years.

[buckeye gold]

I have to defend WestViriniamapler here a bit, Dr. Tim. I offer up too that I'm not trying to demean or offend you or anyone. I believe he did do research, but you are correct he did not design a scientific study. I know it's splitting hairs, but he wanted to investigate if he could find better methods to get better sap flows. On a personal scale he was researching what he could by the means available to him. Even if all he done was read your published works he was researching. This is kind of a pet peeve of mine as I got dug at for years by University research designers. I done a lot of my own research or maybe I should say trial and error and although it did not meet the standards of scientific design I was able to develop techniques that completely changed the approach of production for my line of work and I was recognized nationally by my peers, although; my work was never accepted well by the University level researchers, but they sure liked using me for ideas. They would design studies around what I was doing and ask for huge grants to "research" what I was already applying to production. I for one say he can call it research.

[DrTimPerkins]

I believe he did do research, but you are correct he did not design a scientific study. I know it's splitting hairs, but he wanted to investigate if he could find better methods to get better sap flows. On a personal scale he was researching what he could by the means available to him.

I understand and can accept your definition (and take no offense), however the original post characterized this as a "research experiment" which was then presented to others as a PowerPoint and then in this forum. Generally with scientific research there are a lot of caveats described when presenting results and the methods are clearly spelled out. We got very little of that until several posts later. In addition, in my opinion, the early statements are not really supported well by either the methods or the results.

Again, not criticizing the idea itself....but simply saying that I do not consider the results to be indicative of anything unless and until the "experiment" is done properly. The way it was done there is simply no way to attribute any particular result to anything with any degree of certainty.

As for your situation Buckeye....the maple industry is less like that than many others. The vast majority of improvements and ideas have come from equipment manufacturers and producers over the years. I guess we are fortunate in that way.

[DrTimPerkins]

I guess the question I have is what is better. Tap full depth right from the start or add an extra 1/2 inch to the tap hole mid way through the season.

Yes, that is a good question. Now the problem becomes how to answer it properly to achieve an answer you can have some confidence in. I'd be happy to help designing an experiment to answer that question if you like Brandon.


What really interest me is that PMRC has experimented with over sized tubing and fittings ( kinda eliminating lateral lines ) and had gotten 40+ GPT. I was told this by a salesman at Leader a few years back. It is said that the cost is way to much to set a woods up this way making it more profitable. I would love to hear more on this.

In smaller scale studies we've founds lots of interesting ways to get very high sap yields. The problems arise in 1) scaling them up to sugarbush size experiments, 2) making them cost effective, and 3) ensuring that these yields are sustainable in the long-term. Large diameter tubing worked well in small trials, but in scaling up, the issues became that the tubing was too heavy to be self-supporting (the larger lateral lines sag) so you end up with low spots that collect sap and freeze up and prohibit good vacuum transfer and 2) leak-checking is nearly impossible since there is little liquid in the line to create bubbles. The thing that worked best was dual-lateral/dual-droplines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI4mhesDuj0 however the cost was prohibitive at current sap prices. Some information on various vacuum studies at PMRC can be found at:

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Summary%20of%20Research%20to%20Improve%20Vacuum%20 in%20Maple%20Tubing%20Systems.pdf

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I don't take offense to any of the statements and will continue to pursue this in the future. One producer mentioned above went for 13 days without any sap and one 5 day freeze during the 13 days where temps got into the single digits and the tap holes still never ran until 4 days after the freeze end and he "redrilled" deeper and got 7.55 gpt in 4 days. Yes, it is safe to say these holes were never going to run anymore unless he had redrilled.

At the 5 properties I referred to as the control bush, these taps were still running 2 weeks after redrilling and although I can't prove this due to the freezing stopped 5 days before we quit making syrup, as strong as these taps ran I believe we would have gotten sap for another couple of weeks if we had the freezing nights. Why do I say this, because we got the biggest one run I we had ever seen. We boiled 7.3 gpt in 6.5 days and we didn't measure what we dumped or let run on the ground, but the best I can estimate the total sap was about 9 gpt in 6.5 days with only 2 very minor freeze the second and third nights of the run.

Again, I felt this was interesting information and likely the start of something that we will continue to work with for number of years in the future if the Lord allows me more years to do this. There is no reason to "fudge" numbers, just present as close to accurate results.

One thing you have to remember is that we were dealing with extremely warm temps this year, 27 of the 52 days were above 50 degrees with a lot of days in 60s and 70s. Temps that we haven't seen in my 28 years of making syrup.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Dr Tim I think it would be a good idea to research the sap per tap drilling 1/2" less then going 1/2" deeper about 70% of the way through the season vs a full depth tap hole.

For better or worse, this year lit a fire in me to do more "research" or whatever you want to refer to it. It was extra work but a lot of fun seeing the numbers at the end and results "I would have never dreamed of". I have enjoyed talking with Tim Wilmot and Dr Farrell on several occasions and also Steve Childs and Dr Abby. Maybe one of these days we can chat face to face.

I spend lots of time working with 3/16 natural flow vacuum tubing and trying different things on it which I don't normally post on here. I feel in 3 more years we will have a great handle on 3/16 and answer nearly all of the unanswered questions and I always enjoy discussing with Tim Wilmot.

Thanks for all your research and time and we need to remember in this industry with research and marketing which is a hot topic the last few weeks the statement below:

"Strength is in numbers" not being divided or tearing down each other.

[DrTimPerkins]

Yes, it is safe to say these holes were never going to run anymore unless he had redrilled.

Ah....but that's the question isn't it. How do you really know for certain they were not going to run if you never gave them the chance? That is where scientific research comes in. Maybe they would have run nothing....maybe 25% of a fresh taphole (or taphole drilled deeper), maybe after a few more days thawing they'd have run just fine. You cannot be sure because you changed the conditions of the experiment. The more correct way would have been to redrill half of them and not drill the others and compare production from those two sets.

[spud]

Dr. Tim on the duel drop lines there needs to be just one tap per lateral line? So is there two different saddles? The video is not showing all.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Tim on the duel drop lines there needs to be just one tap per lateral line? So is there two different saddles? The video is not showing all.

No....it doesn't show all. ;)

Actually, in the case where we did a full-scale trial, there were two saddles -- one for the wet and one for the dry (lateral) line. These connected to dry/wet droplines. The spout was a single spout, but there were some modifications that could be made to the stubby to help keep the sap going to the wet line and out of the dry line.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US8424242B2/en?q=perkins&q=maple

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Here is how I know they would have never ran, I have already posted it twice. Holes quit running by March 8th. We had a 5 day freeze from March 13th to 17th with temps getting as low as single digits. Warmed up in 50s and 60s for 4 days from March 18th to 21st and result, no sap. Holes(200) redrilled deeper evening of the 21st and over the next 96 hours, he got 7.55 gpt. On the 25th, the temps got to almost 80 and we had no freezing after than, so useless to try to go past that day. If that isn't for certain, then we can agree to disagree.


Ah....but that's the question isn't it. How do you really know for certain they were not going to run if you never gave them the chance? That is where scientific research comes in. Maybe they would have run nothing....maybe 25% of a fresh taphole (or taphole drilled deeper), maybe after a few more days thawing they'd have run just fine. You cannot be sure because you changed the conditions of the experiment. The more correct way would have been to redrill half of them and not drill the others and compare production from those two sets.

[DrTimPerkins]

If that isn't for certain, then we can agree to disagree.

We will have to agree to disagree then. You cannot state with certainty that those tapholes would not have produced more sap.

[buckeye gold]

Two years ago I left all my fall taps out clear through spring to see what would happen and if by chance they would run some. That year i had put them out about 10 days earlier than usual (Dec. 10th) and they saw some real warm temps. Once they quit they never done any thing more than seep. I don't know if that helps anyone's case or not. I have went to pulling them once they slow significantly and have seen some very warm temps. Of course I am on bags (for fall) so that compounds the problem.