how to deal with long flat level bush....???

[wmick]

Probably a really dumb newby question ...
I experimented with a cheap 12v shureflow type system in a friends bush around the corner this year... and it worked quite well... 50ish taps to my tank..
BUT.. the bush is much larger and I'd like to take advantage, and tap some more next year... Aside from stepping up my vacuum system to handle the expansion.. (I will figure that out).... My question is more about how to design a main line that runs about 2000' through a very long, level, flat bush... All the reading I've done says 3' slope per 100'... Obviously not realistic to start my mainline at 60' off the ground. I apologize for my ignorance... I know how a bucket works... Just starting to learn about the tubing. :emb:
Thanks

[n8hutch]

You will want to use sap ladders, try searching for threads there are many of them, you could PM Breezy Hill about them he is a Ladder genius of sorts.

Slope wise I would oversize your mainline, maybe go with an 1-1/4, and go with minimal slope even as little as 1% you can pull if off if you are diligent with the side ties.

Personally I think tubing the woods is the best part, so enjoy.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Nate is correct on oversized mains and 1% slope. Also consider a wet/dry system so that you get vacuum to the taphole even if you get some sags and slugging of sap. Use a transit or laser level to set the system up. I know of a couple places that are running as little as 1/2% slope. Check your slope with the transit before you start. You might be surprised on what slope there actually is. How does the natural drainage flow after a heavy rain?

[Clinkis]

The majority of my woods is 1-2 degrees slope. I had to use 2 sap ladders to get even that in a couple areas. It works pretty good but you have to be very diligent with keeping the mainlines tight and constantly checking and fixing sags. You need to walk your lines every few days especially after a large temperature swings and heavy winds.

[maple flats]

A sureflow won't handle sap ladders using just 1 pump. To do it with any diaphragm pump you would need a pump at the bottom of the sap ladder to push the sap up the ladder.

[wmick]

Thanks for the advice folks... Sounds like a ladder might be the way to go... Doing some reading about them, and "lifters" now.... Anyone able to compare the two?
I assumed as much, re: the sureflow... Need something with a lot more CFM... I would be really interested in hearing about peoples small gas-engine, vacuum setups...

[mol1jb]

A sureflow won't handle sap ladders using just 1 pump. To do it with any diaphragm pump you would need a pump at the bottom of the sap ladder to push the sap up the ladder.

This is interesting. Have you done this with a diaphragm pump? Would you set this up like a conventional sap ladder or just run 1/2 in line up to the main line?

[maple flats]

No I have not done it, my only diaphragm pumps are in the sugarhouse, one on the filter press, the other sitting idol awaiting a water moving issue, I have a tankless hot water heater but can only use it when the RO is running, I'm designing a way to push water thru it on demand using that idol pump.
My comment on pumping sap up with a diaphragm pump is just from reading several others who have used those pumps, sorry if I lead anyone to think I had used one for a sap ladder.

[mol1jb]

No I have not done it, my only diaphragm pumps are in the sugarhouse, one on the filter press, the other sitting idol awaiting a water moving issue, I have a tankless hot water heater but can only use it when the RO is running, I'm designing a way to push water thru it on demand using that idol pump.
My comment on pumping sap up with a diaphragm pump is just from reading several others who have used those pumps, sorry if I lead anyone to think I had used one for a sap ladder.

No problem. I need to get from my 3/16 convergence manifold up about 15' to get the right pitch form a gravity main. I will have a shurflo on the manifold. Using the shurflo to push it up like a sap ladder is an interesting idea. From what you have read do you remember how others did their diaphragm pump ladder?

[PerryFamily]

I have a similar situation
Long and flat
About 1000 taps and supe close to home
I was thinking minimal pitch as well and thinking electric releaser mounted on the floor of a sea container to help keep everything as low as possible

I hadn't thought about the oversized mains or wet dry though

[wmick]

No problem. I need to get from my 3/16 convergence manifold up about 15' to get the right pitch form a gravity main. I will have a shurflo on the manifold. Using the shurflo to push it up like a sap ladder is an interesting idea. From what you have read do you remember how others did their diaphragm pump ladder?

I understand that you are contemplating the use of a diaphragm to lift sap mid-stream in your system... (I might be in the same position)
I have some ideas how the system could work, but want to understand your whole picture...
To clarify... I'm curious..., What do you have at the bottom end of your system? Vacuum pump, diaphragm pump or just gravity...?? and how many taps, above and below the potential "lift" point ???
Can you describe your potential set up a little more?

[n8hutch]

I guess I don't understand why a Guzzler pump won't lift/pull sap up a ladder, I'm going to give it a try it was pulling 25-26" consistently with mine last year. I also just sat through a tubing workshop with Mike Farrell and he highly recommended making ladders with 3/16, I think I am going to to try that. It makes sense in theory, might require more risers.

[Super Sapper]

I guess I don't understand why a Guzzler pump won't lift/pull sap up a ladder, I'm going to give it a try it was pulling 25-26" consistently with mine last year. I also just sat through a tubing workshop with Mike Farrell and he highly recommended making ladders with 3/16, I think I am going to to try that. It makes sense in theory, might require more risers.

A sap ladder is basically an airlift pump. It uses air (tree gases) to push the sap up the ladder. A Guzzler is made to pump liquid not air, to figure out the CFM of your Guzzler divide your gallons per minute by 7.48, but you will get less as this is with liquid filled line. If you cannot remove the air fast enough the sap will just run down the tube sides on your ladder as the gases move through. 3/16 should work better but you will need to try it to make sure.

[wmick]

I guess I don't understand why a Guzzler pump won't lift/pull sap up a ladder, I'm going to give it a try it was pulling 25-26" consistently with mine last year. I also just sat through a tubing workshop with Mike Farrell and he highly recommended making ladders with 3/16, I think I am going to to try that. It makes sense in theory, might require more risers.
I'm certainly no expert... but I've been studying... and a Guzzler or any other vacuum generator absolutely can work... I think it comes down to a lot of factors, to determine whether it will work for every situation... Aside from "Vacuum level" the other big factor is Flow. (requirements, capability of pump, height of lift, air in system, etc)
Found a pretty good article at ... https://blogs.cornell.edu/cornellmaple/files/2016/06/Tubing-Notebook-6th-edition-2fpl9ze.pdf page 245

[mol1jb]

I understand that you are contemplating the use of a diaphragm to lift sap mid-stream in your system... (I might be in the same position)
I have some ideas how the system could work, but want to understand your whole picture...
To clarify... I'm curious..., What do you have at the bottom end of your system? Vacuum pump, diaphragm pump or just gravity...?? and how many taps, above and below the potential "lift" point ???
Can you describe your potential set up a little more?

I am currently designing my enlarged tubing system for next year so nothing set in stone yet. 150 taps on 3/16 with 100ft drop over 1000ft run. Everything ends up in the same valley. I was going to put a manifold at the bottom with a shurflo on it to create good vacuum for the trees at the bottom of the run (uniform tree distribution throughout the hill sides). From the convergence point I have about 500ft dead flat to get to the sugar house.

So the options I am looking at are 1. pumping up the sap with the shurflo manifold approx 15ft up to a main line with gravity flow to sugar house (I like this option the best but I don't know how exactly to set it up) or 2. Run my 3/16 laterals to the complete bottom of the valley (400ft run with 15ft drop) which gets me within 100ft to the sugar house and then into a holding tank and them pump it up 30ft rise to the sugar house (will work just as well but has one more tank in the mix).

Thoughts?

[BreezyHill]

A sap ladder is basically an airlift
3/16 should work better but you will need to try it to make sure.

Yes the air is lifted easily and the sap rides on an air bubble is the simplest way to explain a sap ladder. A diaphragm is not a good displacer of air...how ever it is good at displacing sap. The amount of air that is needed to lift the sap is less the smaller the riser diameter is, but you will find that it is not that much of an increase until you get larger than 1/2" diameter.

3/16 line will freeze faster at night and it will take many more 3/16 riser to get the volume of your main up to the mainifold.

We have been using ladders since the mid 1970's. The trick with ladders is to get the most efficient transfer of sap up the ladder to have good vacuum past the ladder.

The only way I found that was accurate to test a ladder was to fill a section of mainline up and seal it off and pull a vacuum on it. If you are not pulling on a sealed system you will get awesome results but this is not the same as real production result by any means.

A few numbers you will want to remember: .2Gal/ hour per tap at peak flow. Use this to calculate how much your pump must do in just sap and then you need to factor in for tree gases and injected air/or leaks in the system.
18 the average number of good runs we get a season. Mess up on one of these and you hurt your production a bunch.

3 the number of 3/16 risers to equal a 5/16 risers volume.

It would be interesting to see if a 3/16 riser would thaw faster or slower than a 5/16 riser. 1/2" riser thaw faster than 5/16 risers and they freeze slower than 5/16 by nearly 30 minutes in a side by side comparison.

I am switch all our ladders over to 1/2" risers as time permits. The added efficiency and more hours of operation during a run has improved production.

To understand why a guzzler wont pull sap up a ladder well picture this.

Place a stray into a soda bottle. Tape it so that the stray is just barely over the liquid level. No suck on it and make a vacuum. How much soda did you get?

[n8hutch]

[QUOTE=BreezyHill

To understand why a guzzler wont pull sap up a ladder well picture this.

Place a stray into a soda bottle. Tape it so that the stray is just barely over the liquid level. No suck on it and make a vacuum. How much soda did you get?[/QUOTE]

Breezy some of your stuff makes alot of sense but I'm struggling with this one, why would this work with an old delaval pump pulling 25" but not a Guzzler pump pulling 25", I'm not talking about a shurflow, I'm talking about a Guzzler pump that runs at about 25 gallons per minute?

[Clinkis]

I think what Breezy is trying to say, and I tend to agree with him, is that in order to move sap up a ladder you need to move a lot of air with it to pull the sap up. And what you need is CFM's along with you inches of vacuum to move that air. I was able to get 27" at times with sureflo's but the slightest leak and it would drop like a stone throughout the entire system. With a traditional vacuum pump which moves many more cfm's then a guzzler or sureflo when you have small leaks the pumps do a much better job of over coming them.

That said, try it. I'm sure it will work to a certain extent if the system is designed properly but I think you will have a tough time getting decent vacuum levels beyond your ladder.

[n8hutch]

I'll give it a try this summer I have everything to do it and I'm not talking about a 1000 tap bush here , I'm thinking there's 250 taps max on this whole system. But it's right at the sap house.

I just think there's a big difference between a sap guzzler and a shurflow, I'm not running a recirculation line or anything, I'm running tight systems and once there is any flow at all I'm getting 25-26"

[Clinkis]

Like I said the issue won't be inches of vacuum its low CFM's. I just checked on the Bozworth website and this is what they say about their pumps which supports what Breezy is trying to say.......

"When used for creating vacuum on maple sap collection lines, Bosworth Guzzler pumps can generate 22 in of Hg vacuum, depending on how tight your maple sap collection lines are. However, both our single and double diaphragm pumps are ’low-cfm’ pumps, so even small leaks can reduce the vacuum you are able to achieve."

https://www.thebosworthco.com/information/faq.php

But try it and see. I installed a 270 tap pipeline system this past winter with minimal slope with a couple sap ladders. The ladders worked good but they took a little tinkering. In order to get decent vacuum after the ladder and prevent pooling I had to inject a small amount of air.

[n8hutch]

I bought my pump from Bosworth and I fully understand what their website says, I've already used this pump and yes Ithe pulled 22" dead headed and dry, pulls much harder I've seen it as high as 28" once you wet the diaphragm, there is no debate on that, I've used the pump all this season on 450 taps and it pulled 25-26" all day long. These companies have to be careful what they write down because people will try and hold them to it, I bet a vehicle you have owned probably got better milage from time to time then the tag says it did at the dealership.

If it doesn't work I'll put the pump out where the ladders would be, although I would rather not do that. I just haven't heard any real hard evidence that it won't work so I'm going to give it a whirl

[Clinkis]

Give it a go and I hope it works for you. I don't doubt the vacuum level you achieved. I was trying to draw your attention to the part of Bozworth's statement that the pumps are "low CFM pumps". This will most likely be the issue if it doesn't work as you are hoping.

[Super Sapper]

Give it a go and I hope it works for you. I don't doubt the vacuum level you achieved. I was trying to draw your attention to the part of Bozworth's statement that the pumps are "low CFM pumps". This will most likely be the issue if it doesn't work as you are hoping.
Looking at the site the pumps would get 2.6 cfm max.

[n8hutch]

Yeah it's definitely not much on cfm, but I'm only going to have maybe 700ft of mainline. Also one thing people tend to overlook with these pumps is that there is no surges in vaccum, they are a constant pull, no releaser dumping if you will. I just don't think this particular woods being so small would be worth a vacuum pump and releaser investment, but it sure will be nice to have it running right into the sugarhouse.

[BreezyHill]

Ok bad analogy.

Lets take an iced coffee your spouse just got at dunkin dounuts and she got your second favorite flavor. You don't want her to know you drank it all so you are tring to get the last bit out of the cup. You cant suck hard or you will wake her. You cant get it all without sucking hard and pulling every little bit up the stray walls. Same thing with a ladder. You want as high of vacuum as you can to suck hard and it takes just a bit more air than the tree gases to get peak flow up the riser fast enough to keep vac past the ladder.

Dad ha a guzzler; he wasn't impressed and it went back. Surflow is a different story. You set the surflow up to be the ladder's power. It will push the sap up a far distance. Knew a place that did this to clear the driveway for truck deliveries. Said it worked well enough.

[mol1jb]

Ok bad analogy.

Lets take an iced coffee your spouse just got at dunkin dounuts and she got your second favorite flavor. You don't want her to know you drank it all so you are tring to get the last bit out of the cup. You cant suck hard or you will wake her. You cant get it all without sucking hard and pulling every little bit up the stray walls. Same thing with a ladder. You want as high of vacuum as you can to suck hard and it takes just a bit more air than the tree gases to get peak flow up the riser fast enough to keep vac past the ladder.

Dad ha a guzzler; he wasn't impressed and it went back. Surflow is a different story. You set the surflow up to be the ladder's power. It will push the sap up a far distance. Knew a place that did this to clear the driveway for truck deliveries. Said it worked well enough.

Great. That is what I was figuring and I appreciate the input. So when powering a ladder with Shurflo would you just use a 1/2 in riser since that is the output from the pump? That is what I was going to go with.

[BreezyHill]

matching th out put should be adequate. Over sizing will increase the back pressure and make draining at night have more sap that needs to be caught or lost.

Do realize that you will need to drain this sytem each night and diaphragm pumps do not like or handle ice well at all.

[mol1jb]

matching th out put should be adequate. Over sizing will increase the back pressure and make draining at night have more sap that needs to be caught or lost.

Do realize that you will need to drain this sytem each night and diaphragm pumps do not like or handle ice well at all.

My plan was to have the pump in a freeze proof setup like insulated box with heat source. In this scenario would I still need to drain the riser?

[BreezyHill]

If the box didn't freeze then it would not be as vital.

Problem is if the riser is frozen and the pump is running there will be no out put from the pump.

Draining could be as siple as a valve on a tee to a bucket. 14' of 1/2" riser wont be over a 5 gal pail.