3/16 or 5/16 on vacuum?

[Austin351]

After a dismal season, already getting ready for the next...

This season I added 37 taps on 3/16" in attempts to get natural vacuum. My grade isn't optimal but was able to pull 12" on a good day. Even on those good days, I don't feel those taps did any better than the 14 bags I had.

My Shurflo 4008 just showed up yesterday and am wondering what size line would work best? Should I keep the 3/16" or up size to 5/16" or even 1/2"? Advantages of one over the other?

95% of my trees are reds. The one line with 22 taps was about 500' long, the other line with 15 taps was around 250' long.

[unc23win]

If grade is an issue vacuum will help for sure. Many producers are trying various hybrid tubing systems using both 3/16 and 5/16. A larger main line such as 1/2" would also help get better vacuum transfer to the taps. Although I personally would rather use 3/4 or 1" over 1/2 because you'll get better vacuum and 3/4 or 1" are easier to work with.

[mol1jb]

Even if you pull a lower number on gravity vac I would still use 3/16. The Shurflo pump will increase that number even more. Natural vac + mechanical vac = total vac.

[Coot]

This past year I had 6 lines coming into a manifold at the tank for the total of 116 taps on 3/16 tubing. I used a Delaval pump rated at 2GPM from Tractor Supply and it gave me on the average 26-28 inches day in and day out. Some of the ground had enough slope for natural vacuum, but some of it was fairly flat and I still was getting the same amount of vacuum as the other lines. Next year I am planning adding another 200-300 taps going the same way and longer runs and see how it works.

[bstewar]

Paying close attention to this thread. Got access to a new bush with decent slope but no power. Going 3/16" for laterals and struggling with mainline size. Thinking 3/4". Question Is would 20-25 taps on 3/16 laterals into 1/2" or 3/4" main connected to a shurflo be the right approach?

[RileySugarbush]

Paying close attention to this thread. Got access to a new bush with decent slope but no power. Going 3/16" for laterals and struggling with mainline size. Thinking 3/4". Question Is would 20-25 taps on 3/16 laterals into 1/2" or 3/4" main connected to a shurflo be the right approach?
For the 3/16 to work it has to be the part of the system that drops down the hill. The actual slope matters much less than the total drop. The mainline will not add any vacuum. Individual 3/16 lines running the full drop to the tank will give the most vacuum if the geography lets you do that. I'd but as many taps per line up to 35 or 40 on each line.

[motowbrowne]

For the 3/16 to work it has to be the part of the system that drops down the hill. The actual slope matters much less than the total drop. The mainline will not add any vacuum. Individual 3/16 lines running the full drop to the tank will give the most vacuum if the geography lets you do that. I'd but as many taps per line up to 35 or 40 on each line.

The mainline will add vacuum if it's hooked to a Shurflo.

I like fewer than 25 taps per lateral. That way when a squirrel chews the line you don't lose production from many taps.

[RileySugarbush]

The mainline will add vacuum if it's hooked to a Shurflo.

I like fewer than 25 taps per lateral. That way when a squirrel chews the line you don't lose production from many taps.

True, but OP says he has no power at the line.

My extensive experience ( 1 season!) is that more taps on the 3/16 line ran better per tap than fewer. Lot's of squirrels but they have been kind to me and left the lines alone.

[motowbrowne]

True, but OP says he has no power at the line.

My extensive experience ( 1 season!) is that more taps on the 3/16 line ran better per tap than fewer. Lot's of squirrels but they have been kind to me and left the lines alone.

I remembered someone saying that too, but after reading the first post, it wasn't the OP. It was bstewar, but actually both him and the OP mention using Shurflo pumps. I guess he must be planning on using batteries.

I ran 265 taps on about fifteen 3/16" laterals. They ran into a 1" mainline and then into a Shurflo 2088. When I stayed on top of leaks I got 18" of vacuum in the mainline and 25+" at the top of every line. I was very impressed. Especially when you compare the cost of my setup to doing the whole thing on 5/16 with a rotary pump and releaser.

[Super Sapper]

If your lines end at the same location or close to it I would just manifold it at the pump. A shurflo pump is less efficient at moving air than liquid so the less air in the system the better. Mainlines do work if kept tight but the less mainline the better. It takes a larger volume of air removed than sap to create your vacuum.

[cedar syrups]

I,m kind of in the same boat , I had 130 taps on 4 runs of 3/16 that started on natural vac but I put a shurflo 4088 on it in mid season and it dramatically increased sap flo. the set up has about 25 ft of slope down so I am going to be adding like 200 or so more taps to the system. My question is should I run just 3/16 on several more runs or should I go to a mainline like 3/4 inch the whole setup should have natural slope of like 30 ft overall from the top to the bottom. I would like to do it right the first time so if anyone has some good suggestions I would appreciate it thanks

[Austin351]

The majority of my slope is at the opposite end of my collection tank (runs 300' on little to no slope until it gets to collection). I know it wasn't optimum but figured some natural vacuum was better than none. I think there was only 2 days where I actually had a steady stream coming off my 22 tap line..

I hadn't considered a mainline but maybe I should. I'd be able to pick up another 10 trees on vacuum, that previously were on bags.

[DrTimPerkins]

The majority of my slope is at the opposite end of my collection tank (runs 300' on little to no slope until it gets to collection).

Clearly not an optimal installation situation for 3/16", which is probably why you were underwhelmed by the performance (or lack thereof). I'd suggest you transition from 3/16" to 5/16" tubing at the bottom of the slope, but still try to maintain some grade from there to the collection point. That way you'll still get the benefit from the 3/16" natural vacuum, but you'll get less back-pressure with 5/16" across the flat area than with 3/16" tubing.

[DrTimPerkins]

....should I run just 3/16 on several more runs or should I go to a mainline like 3/4 inch the whole setup should have natural slope of like 30 ft overall from the top to the bottom.

Yes, that would work, but keep the 3/4" line as short as you can. As others have said, the sap puller style pumps don't move much CFM, so the smallest volume you can have in mainline the better. Alternatively just run the 3/16" lines individually right up to the pump and only have a small manifold of mainline right at the pump to connect in all your 3/16" lines.

[milligkl]

I have run 3/16" tubing every year (just completed my 3rd season) and while my first 2 years I generated a fair amount of vacuum this year the warm weather caused saw dust and other gunk in my lines which reduced my vacuum. I've considered adding an electric vacuum to help complement my system, I have 2 different mainlines (with around 800 taps on each that extend 2,000 feet a piece approx) one that is 1" and one that is 1.5" I am a little confused from some of the previous references to the shurflo 4088, is that just to pump sap or is that used to generate electric vacuum? I do not know much about how the setup for electric vacuum works and what the electric requirements would be for me. Any advice on how to have both of these systems working together would be appreciated.



Thanks,
Kevin

[motowbrowne]

I have run 3/16" tubing every year (just completed my 3rd season) and while my first 2 years I generated a fair amount of vacuum this year the warm weather caused saw dust and other gunk in my lines which reduced my vacuum. I've considered adding an electric vacuum to help complement my system, I have 2 different mainlines (with around 800 taps on each that extend 2,000 feet a piece approx) one that is 1" and one that is 1.5" I am a little confused from some of the previous references to the shurflo 4088, is that just to pump sap or is that used to generate electric vacuum? I do not know much about how the setup for electric vacuum works and what the electric requirements would be for me. Any advice on how to have both of these systems working together would be appreciated.



Thanks,
Kevin

Some people do use Shurflos for pumping sap, but most of the buzz about them on this site is in regards to using them to create vacuum.

800 taps on 2000' of mainline, however is beyond the scope of a Shurflo, at least in my opinion. As far as options to create vacuum with electricity, there are Guzzler pumps which are diaphragm pumps you install in three mainline before your collection tank that are rated for that many taps, but probably a better option is a regular vacuum pump with a releaser. The mainline goes into the releaser where sap is separated from the vacuum the pump creates. There is also a moisture trap between the releaser and the pump protect the pump. There's lots of types of vacuum pumps and several types of releasers, with varying price points. With 1600 taps, though, a pump and releaser setup should pay for itself in less than a season with the increase in sap production.

[DrTimPerkins]

...800 taps on 2000' of mainline, however is beyond the scope of a Shurflo, ...

Completely agree with that assessment. The Shurflo doesn't move enough CFM to work, even adequately, in that setting. Unless you keep your system very tight, even a single diaphragm pump would be a stretch.

[mol1jb]

The majority of my slope is at the opposite end of my collection tank (runs 300' on little to no slope until it gets to collection). I know it wasn't optimum but figured some natural vacuum was better than none. I think there was only 2 days where I actually had a steady stream coming off my 22 tap line..

I hadn't considered a mainline but maybe I should. I'd be able to pick up another 10 trees on vacuum, that previously were on bags.

If the line is already there I would try the 3/16 setup with Shurflo before changing out lines.

[bstewar]

I really appreciate the feedback and info on this thread. I am going to Bascom's open house on Friday and go with 3/16" supplies for the new woods. I like the idea of a short section of 3/4" mainline as a manifold at the tank. I'll try a shurflo there as well. Haven't done a full inventory in the woods yet but looking like 100-150 taps.

[motowbrowne]

I really appreciate the feedback and info on this thread. I am going to Bascom's open house on Friday and go with 3/16" supplies for the new woods. I like the idea of a short section of 3/4" mainline as a manifold at the tank. I'll try a shurflo there as well. Haven't done a full inventory in the woods yet but looking like 100-150 taps.

I have about 40 or 45 taps set up exactly as you describe. Long 3/16 laterals coming into a 3' section of mainline. I've got a 90 degree barbed x female pipe thread adapter with a 4 way star fitting for 5/16 tubing. Two laterals, a vacuum gauge and a plug which I want to switch out to a recirculation line next year. I collected a lot of sap from those taps this year. The price to put them on vacuum was probably the same cost as buying a new metal spile and a $1 used bucket.

[cedar syrups]

Thanks Dr Perkins for the info. Just a further thought maybe I would be better off running a couple of 5/16 runs up 20 ft of slope for say 250 ft and then branching out with 3/16 with say 30 or so taps on each using the 10 or so ft of slope remaining that way I could use the natural slope vac. and the Shurflo pump vac. putting them all on a manifold at the pump for maybe a total of 150 taps and I could isolate each if I,m having problems. that would help with less air to move for the pump. Just trying to get it to work the best I can. What do you think maybe someone has a better idea. Thanks

[DrTimPerkins]

Not sure I understand you completely, but you want to use 3/16" tubing wherever you have elevation drop, so don't run 5/16" up the hill. Run the 3/16" all the way to the bottom of the hill, then connect into 5/16" or mainline. You wouldn't want more than about 30-40 taps total on any one 5/16" line, and preferably 25 or less, otherwise your pump won't help much. Thus you could have your pump with a short piece of mainline as a manifold, then 5/16" lines coming off that which would convert to 3/16" lines at the BASE (bottom) of the hill. Would be best to avoid branching 3/16" lines off of 5/16" lines if possible. They'll both carry about the same amount of sap in those circumstances. Overloading the 5/16" across a flat area is not a good idea.

It's like the old saying, you can have it cheap, you can have it fast, or you can have it right....pick any two.