Designing 3500 tap tubing system.

[MaynardPorter]

I'm in the middle of doing the preliminary design of my tubing system and have a couple questions:

Dry and Wet lines VS. just Wet line: incorporating the two line system (dry & wet) you are able to ensure vacuum at the end of your system but it's twice as expensive as the one line system. Can I just increase the size of my main lines in the one line system to ensure there is enough room for both air and sap? Seems like this would be a more economical solution.

5/16 VS. 3/16: Is everyone truly going from 5/16 to 3/16 even on vacuum systems? if so, great..should be cheaper

Sap ladder VS. separate collection tank: I've got a couple sections of woods that I tap and are across the primary trail in the woods. This trail needs to be unobstructed. I can gravity feed these areas to collection tanks that I can empty once a day or I can try to use a sap ladder... how well do sap ladders work? I'm trying to make the operations as efficient as possible so I'm leaning toward the sap ladder but I've never seen one in action and haven't read to much about them.

Any Advice on a good/cheap electronic means for mapping out tubing lines? I'm currently using tracing paper over a large topographical map of the land...would love to go digital if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg....I'll only have one of each left after I pay for all the tubing:)

[Maple Man 85]

I am in the same boat as you. I'm installing a 3500-4000 tap system. I decided to go with 3/16 and a wet dry system with vacuum (because I have do not have enough slope). If the 3/16 fails in the next 2-5 years I will not have my investment back and put in 5/16. Don't be afraid to try your own experiments Proctor can't research everything at once (no offence Dr. Tim) that's how we move the industry forward is through research, trial and error. I would still recommend a wet dry system because if your wet line is froze and the sap begins to flow you can still pull through the dry line while the wet thaws maximizing sap yield.

[maple flats]

If you have at least 12-15' elevation drop on the lines and are using vacuum too, the 3/16 works great and is far cheaper too. A few points, 5/16 will only perform well if kept at 100' or less in length, and you should try to stay in the 5 taps/lateral for best results. That means a saddle for every 5 taps or so. With 3/16 you can go to 1200' in length and possibly more (my longest is 1200') and I've heard a max. # of taps from 30 on up to 37, but I have on that 1200' line 41 taps and it flows great. I just don't know if I'd get more sap by splitting it into 2 laterals. Most of my laterals in 3/16 have between 20 and 35 taps. #/16 costs less/ft and with fewer saddles it costs far less to put up and saves time too.
I have vacuum on my 3/16 at 18-19" and my 3/16 lines just 15' above the mains are at or above 25" and the ones higher get max. vacuum any time the sap is running along with the vacuum pump. I have gone to wet/dry on most of my larger bush. If going single main it needs to be much larger to carry both sap down and vacuum up in the same tube that is you have a wet/dry. But then you don't want to connect laterals to a wet line, they go into mains that then enter the wet/dry with a design that allows the sap to fall to the wet line while the air (gasses) rise to the dry line. One big advantage after the better vacuum transfer to the top is the fact that if a wet line freezes the sap can rise to the dry line until the wet line thaws, on a single line, if the sap freezes you have very little space left to carry sap until the frozen sap thaws, if you have even one low spot you have no sap transport until that thaws.
Sap ladders, if you have enough vacuum pump they work great. I initially had some issues, but then I read some posts by BreezyHill and installed some controlled air leaks in the form of little needle valves and my sap ladders started working great as well as my vacuum to the end of the lines climbed. Even at my longer sap ladder lines I get to within 1-2" of vacuum that I have at the pump with 2 and 3 sap ladders in between. The secret is to keep a tight system and then just up stream of any ladder that is not lifting good, about 30-40' before the ladder, install a saddle low on the main and connect a 1/8" needle valve to introduce a tiny amount of air. At that distance you should be able to see the ladder's performance. Ben (BreezyHill) suggests you go to the first ladder not performing well and adding the needle valve, I go to the last one and add one, then work back. I find that sometimes fixing the far ladder helps the next one too. With the needle valves you try to adjust for best performance on a heavy flow day for the minimum that does well, then leave it there all the time.

[mellondome]

With 5/16, the 5 tap 100ft limits are only recommendations for HIGH vacuum. If you are running 5/16 gravity, ( which never gets talked about) your max taps per line is somewhere in the 45 tap range.
Now when people are talking 3/16 and 30+taps per line.. this is for gravity.... not mechanical vacuum. My guess is that if you are looking high vac non gravity induced, 3/16 will have the same limitations (if not more) as 5/16.

Vacuum doesnt transfer well through liquid, which is why 5 taps per lateral on 5/16. This allows the vacuum to transfer tonthe end tap through the air in the line... which will bypass the sap if need be.

As for wet/dry... you would need a big line if you just want a wet line only. You may be cost ahead with 2 lines (1 wet 1 dry) . And wet/dry lines will not double your cost as these are only your main lines. You should have branch lines off of these that your laterals are connected to. My wet dry for a 1000 tap bush has 2200ft of wet/dry (1100 each). 6000+ ft of branch line... and what seems like millions of ft of laterals.. but cost for the extra 1100 ft of a smaller line is not very much more than the cost of 1100 ft of a bigger line to carry the same volume of air and sap. And with a section of very little slope... it is insurance against missing runs due to frozen pipe.

[BreezyHill]

For me the ship is still out on 3/16 vs 5/16.

That may be simply that I don't have enough slope for it to benefit so the reduction in vac transfer is more of a factor.

You are correct that tubing is expensive but...if you reduce the distance between your mains you reduce the amount of tubing that is needed. I have installed a main between two reviously installed mains to increase vac at the tap. The existing laterial tubing was cut and connected to saddles. In a 1000' of main I had over 1000' of tubing that was removed.

Google Earth and a magenlan or garmin hand held gps will do the trick just fine. You can do it all on G.E. if you are familiar with the using the slope and draw properties of the program.

By naming each main and then the laterials in sequence you can do layers on a map of the farm. Then set in the laterials. The program will measure each run and you can total them on an excel spread sheet or paper.

Thanks for the kind words Flats!

The reason I go to the one that is at issue first is if the vac past there is not right and it is flooded then going further past didn't get that ladder working.

Now if there are no added taps then absolutely go to the last one and get the sap up that and the bubbles added will move with the sap and make it go up the next ladder just fine.

Ladders IMO are a necessary piece of equipment in an efficient tubing system. The time spent hauling sap, I do not have to spare. I needed a system that would work by turning the vac pump on and all the sap will be in the sap house when I get there. The RO will run unmanned and so does the sap collection system. The evaporator is the next thing to automate more. If it sounds like I am making myself obsolete; I don't think so but I want it so any body that can read a book can run the operation. Efficency is the name of the game if you are looking for a profit or to reduce time.

Work smart, so you have time to spend with those you love.

One rule on ladders to many risers will reduce your vac past the ladder. This seems to be due to the speed that the sap is going up the risers. all that is needed is to match the volume of the main to the risers. Then you balance the risers individual flow to equalize the sap up all the risers and you are in business.

As Flats said. Once you have it set right on peak flow you are done playing with it. Write the settings down in your book for next season.

I am curious if anyone has timed out witch thaws quicker a 5/16 or 3/16. Faster thaw time at on partly sunny days is a big factor for me.

Good Luck LAF!

ask all the questions you have...much easier to answer a simple question than to correct a simple mistake. LOL

Ben

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

With 3/16 Hybrid systems we are shooting for 10 to 15 taps per lateral line.

[abbott]

Now when people are talking 3/16 and 30+taps per line.. this is for gravity.... not mechanical vacuum. My guess is that if you are looking high vac non gravity induced, 3/16 will have the same limitations (if not more) as 5/16.


I'm certainly not an expert here, but if you have 3/16 line that is 1000' long with a 30' overall drop and 26" of natural vacuum at the top, you are only going to increase the vacuum level if you add a vacuum pump at the bottom. What you're really gaining, though, is at the lower taps of the lateral that have much less natural vacuum. That is to say, if a 3/16 system works well on gravity, you will only make it better with mechanical vacuum.

Where you're going to get in trouble with 3/16 is if you have long flat runs of lateral, where gravity is adding nothing and vacuum is not transferred well from the pump. Inthis case, you might be better off with 5/16.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

This is a great resource and milk it for all its worth but for an investment of this size you owe it to yourself to get someone you can trust to walk the woods with you.

[Super Sapper]

"With 5/16, the 5 tap 100ft limits are only recommendations for HIGH vacuum. If you are running 5/16 gravity, ( which never gets talked about) your max taps per line is somewhere in the 45 tap range.
Now when people are talking 3/16 and 30+taps per line.. this is for gravity.... not mechanical vacuum. My guess is that if you are looking high vac non gravity induced, 3/16 will have the same limitations (if not more) as 5/16."

My experience with 3/16 is that it does not behave the same as 5/16 with vacuum. The line does not know whether the vacuum it sees is from an elevation drop or from mechanical vacuum. I have a few runs of about 300 to 400 feet with around 20 taps and basically no elevation drop and I only lose about 1 inch of vacuum at the end. 3/16 does not have the air slippage that 5/16 has whether on slope or with mechanical vac.

[MaynardPorter]

Appreciate the insight and opinions.

I'm almost done taking down all the old main lines - the previous system that my parents inherited was inefficient and only encompassed about 1/2 the 55 acres available to tap. Will be a busy summer deciding how to lay out the lines - Will definitely look to get someone to walk the woods who knows what they're doing as the investment is going to be pretty substantial.

Looks like 3/16 is the way I'll go for the lateral lines and 5/16 for the sap ladders (from reading other posts), and I'll be going with a wet dry system (was leaning that way to begin with. when I figure out the diameter & lengths of the main and Branch lines (and associated tap count on each), I'll be pinging the community on releasers and pumps.

appreciated the help - this has been a great community to help check/correct the preliminary design.

[DrTimPerkins]

Not to toss cold water on the 3/16" tubing craze, however we've found that (in a high vacuum tubing system) 3/16" tubing is considerably more susceptible to progressive plugging issues UNLESS you flush your tubing annually. If you can't flush, I'd be wary of adding a lot of 3/16" tubing and would suggest sticking with 5/16" tubing. If you can flush, then 3/16" tubing will certainly provide a significant amount of additional benefit in a hybrid (pumped + natural vacuum) system. In this case, "dry cleaning" (pulling taps with the vacuum on) does NOT count as flushing. You need an actual flush with water or preferably with a sanitizing solution.

In addition, 3/16" should NOT be used on flat land or in a low slope setting. Too much friction with the tubing resulting in backpressure and reduced sap yields.

In areas with good slope (elevation drop) where it can be flushed annually, 3/16" tubing works very well either with pure natural vacuum or in a hybrid system.

[Sugarbush Ridge]

Dr Tim; "You need an actual flush with water or preferably with a sanitizing solution." What kinds of sanitizing solutions are out there?

[DrTimPerkins]

What kinds of sanitizing solutions are out there?

There are several, including: water, bleach solution, hydrogen peroxide based cleaners (Premium Peroxide), various commercial tubing cleaners. Just don't use isopropyl alcohol if you're in the U.S. Pay attention to the "contact time" and any rinsing requirements associated with each sanitizer.

Note that this does not constitute an endorsement of any one particular type of sanitizer.

[abbott]

Not to toss cold water on the 3/16" tubing craze, however we've found that (in a high vacuum tubing system) 3/16" tubing is considerably more susceptible to progressive plugging issues UNLESS you flush your tubing annually. If you can't flush, I'd be wary of adding a lot of 3/16" tubing and would suggest sticking with 5/16" tubing. If you can flush, then 3/16" tubing will certainly provide a significant amount of additional benefit in a hybrid (pumped + natural vacuum) system. In this case, "dry cleaning" (pulling taps with the vacuum on) does NOT count as flushing. You need an actual flush with water or preferably with a sanitizing solution.

In addition, 3/16" should NOT be used on flat land or in a low slope setting. Too much friction with the tubing resulting in backpressure and reduced sap yields.

In areas with good slope (elevation drop) where it can be flushed annually, 3/16" tubing works very well either with pure natural vacuum or in a hybrid system.

Good info, but now I want more details. What constitutes enough slope? Does that vary depending on how many taps you put on a line?

If plugging is a concern, would it be wise to flush the lines again in the fall (or just run the vacuum and check for plugs then) after bacterial growth has slowed? Why is plugging more of a problem on high vacuum and what is high enough to be high vacuum (gravity systems on 3/16 achieve high vacuum too don't they?)

I can handle a little cold water if it means I end up with the right system. Thanks for all your help!

[GV2]

In addition, 3/16" should NOT be used on flat land or in a low slope setting. Too much friction with the tubing resulting in backpressure and reduced sap yields.

Dr. Tim, would you consider 25 foot of 5% average drop from lowest tree, inadequate, borderline, or ok?

[DrTimPerkins]

Good info, but now I want more details.

So do we. All we know at this point is that there is some sort of long-term (3 yr) progressive loss in production from 3/16" compared to 5/16" tubing in a high-vacuum environment. We suspect it is progressive plugging, but don't know for certain. We intend to investigate solutions next season, so just realize that we are dealing with incomplete information, and that the story can (is likely to) change as we learn more.


What constitutes enough slope? Does that vary depending on how many taps you put on a line?

Tim Wilmot has published a number of papers on this, as has Steve Childs. I suggest you read their publications to answer those questions.


If plugging is a concern, would it be wise to flush the lines again in the fall (or just run the vacuum and check for plugs then) after bacterial growth has slowed?

Flushing in the spring will remove the sap residue and reduce growth. You could again in the fall, but that would only serve to increase the cost of this activity. We don't know yet what the most effective ways to clean 3/16" tubing is, or whether simply "dry cleaning" (pulling with vacuum on) and replacing drops periodically will suffice instead. We do know that flushing at the end of the season will help reduce plugging issues though, so that is the interim solution until we know more.


Why is plugging more of a problem on high vacuum and what is high enough to be high vacuum (gravity systems on 3/16 achieve high vacuum too don't they?)

Vacuum is vacuum is vacuum. Doesn't matter how it is generated in terms of this issue. It is likely to be an issue with any 3/16" tubing system.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Tim, would you consider 25 foot of 5% average drop from lowest tree, inadequate, borderline, or ok?

Do you mean a 25' total drop in elevation from the lowest tree averaging 5% in slope? If so, yes, that is plenty to generate decent vacuum. You should be running around 18-19" Hg in that setting assuming your system is tight.

[GV2]

Do you mean a 25' total drop in elevation from the lowest tree averaging 5% in slope?

Yes 25' total drop. I think I will give it a try. Thank you!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I'll jump in here some with cleaning issue. We had a good discussion on cleaning at the start of the Friday seminar on 3/16 I did at CDL open house with attendees and Tim Wilmot. I have a lot of 3/16 tubing that has been up for 3 years and 3 full seasons and it looks about as good as what I put up 6 months ago. I saw no increase in plugging in it this year even though it was older. Each of the last 3 seasons we have had way above Normal high temps during a lot of the season which should lead to even more issues with plugging. I flush all mine every year including drops and this year I let the taps hang dry a couple of weeks also. I recommend cleaning 3/16 every year and Tim Wilmot was also in agreement that 3/16 should be flushed after the end of each season. I'm using only permeate to flush with no chemicals as I don't like to use any chemicals.

Tim Wilmot stated he didn't feel sucking system dry with vac pump on a hybrid system was sufficient but should also be flushed. I know a lot of yeast of flushed out when I do this. I think another key to advoid plugging is getting the taps pulled quickly and not leaving them in trees way after season.

I will say I'm only running CDL 3/16 semi-rigid and I haven't used any other brand so I can't speak for what it will do. I'm trying different cleaning methods every season to see what works best.

[DrTimPerkins]

Unfortunately you can't really "see" how clean tubing is from how it'll affect the sanitation aspect of yield enhancement. There is very little relationship to what is seen through tubing walls and how good your sanitation is. I've seen tubing that looks quite bad, but most everything in it was dead (and thus didn't really reduce sap yield), and tubing that looked good, but had a lot of stuff growing in it (just not visible). As far as plugging, despite looking closely we don't see a real lot of material plugging in tubing, so hard to say for sure whether it is truly plugging of fittings or whether this issue is caused by sanitation issues in the dropline. Not surprised Tim Wilmot recommended that flushing -- he has suggested that for some time, and we spoke just as soon as our results this year were in. Unfortunately it is also something you aren't likely to easily detect from yields. The yields we are seeing are still VERY good, but the 3/16" is no longer as good or better than the 5/16" tubing after three years. We don't know yet whether it is plugging or sanitation issues. Either way, we'd recommend replacement of drops after 3 yrs anyhow, so we'll probably test that next spring and see if it corrects the problem. In the meantime, with 3/16" tubing it is probably best to flush the lines and replace spouts annually, and consider replacing drops on a 3-yr cycle. We should know by this time next year whether "dry cleaning" (not flushing) and replacement of drops/spouts is sufficient in a 3/16" system of this type.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Dr Tim I agree with you there and that was well put and always appreciated your knowledge. I have also been highly recommending replacement of spouts every year and drops every 3 years. I do agree that you may not be able to see partial plugging but any minor plugging issues seem to be corrected mostly by good freezes since the lines freeze full it helps loosen the crud in the lines and most of it flushes out the next run. I think in another 3 years we will have a lot better handle on what works best in a 3/16 system. Most of any plugging will be in the Ts and replacing them every 3 years along with flushing should help avoid most of the problems. Always good to see Tim Wilmot and wish he could have stayed for entire seminar instead of a few minutes. Dr Farrell was there for entire seminar and always enjoy his knowledge also and what he can add.