3/16 laterals on wet/dry mainline

[abbott]

Here's the setup: I currently have all my taps on a vacuum system. Wet & Dry 1" lines are 2000' long at about 3% slope. 3/4" mainlines branch off and run up the hill at 5-7% slope. These 3/4 branch lines are up to 800' long and have up to 100 taps on 5/16. I'm envisioning eliminating all of my 3/4" branch mainelines and running 3/16 tubing up the hill instead. So I'd have 2000' of 1" wet & dry lines with about 1000 taps on 3/16, roughly 20-25 taps per lateral, runs up to 800' up the hill (so potential for 1000' of tubing once you account for zig-zags.)

One of my biggest questions is whether I should keep the wet/dry system and how to make it work effectively. If the laterals are connected via saddles to the wet line, then should I just connect the wet & dry lines together periodically? Put a saddle on each and a short piece of 5/16? Should I keep short sections of my 3/4" mains and have 3-5 laterals converge into them before connecting to the mainline?

Also, running the opposite way from the sap house I can put in a similar setup - A 1000' mainline with 3% slope and 3/16 laterals going up the hill at maybe 5% slope or so. This mainline would have no more than 4-500 taps possible. Is it better to size the mainline large enough to transfer vacuum from the pump or run wet/dry with smaller mainlines?

Definitely going to have more 3/16 questions as I get going, but could not find anywhere this topic had been addressed. Thanks!

[markcasper]

I wouldn't take out the mains unless you were forced to. Alot easier checking for leaks in my opinion. If your doing a thinning or a scheduled replacement, then that is another story. The longer spans of either 3/16" or 5/16" always suck when you have leaks because the leak is always "a little bit further."

[maple flats]

In a wet/dry set up no laterals enter the wet line, only side mains enter and at that point they are designed to split the wet from the air and gases. Thus you should keep the mains or maybe even shorten them but keep them, as each main comes off the wet/dry have a valve to isolate that main and then run all of the 3/16 into it. I have done this in about 2/3 of my bush and will do some more before next season. With the vacuum on the main, you can use 3/16 even on flat ground, I did it as an experiment on 3 laterals this year where many of the taps were at or some even lower than the main, when the vacuum was one at 26-27" I could not see any difference between those flat 3/16 laterals and the ones with just medium slope and total drop.
I have 3/16 on lines ranging from about 14 all the way up to one at 41 taps. I will split the 41 for next year into 2 lines, then my max. will be 30-33 taps on a 3/16 line. They just seem to work well and the part I like best is that the sap never gets passed by the air (gases). That alone helps keep the lines cleaner.
While my sugar was at record low this year, had it been at my 3 year average from the previous 3 seasons I'd have gotten just over .4 gal/tap in syrup.

[BnSmaple]

I have a similar setup 2000' wet dry I'm a deep ravine with 200' 3/16 laterals that connect into the dry line. Every 200 taps I connect the wet and dry together with stainless fittings. This was it's first season on this setup but it yielded .75 g/tap

[abbott]

I wouldn't take out the mains unless you were forced to. Alot easier checking for leaks in my opinion. If your doing a thinning or a scheduled replacement, then that is another story. The longer spans of either 3/16" or 5/16" always suck when you have leaks because the leak is always "a little bit further."

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic... but the way I see it, currently I have to identify the main with the leak, then walk it and check each lateral to find said leak. With 3/16 I would have to identify the lateral with the leak and walk it to find said leak. That seems easier to me, as I would be checking 25 taps rather than 100. As an aside, once I had my system tight for the season, I did not have to fix any leaks mid-season. Most years I only have to go find a leak once or twice.

[abbott]

I have a similar setup 2000' wet dry I'm a deep ravine with 200' 3/16 laterals that connect into the dry line. Every 200 taps I connect the wet and dry together with stainless fittings. This was it's first season on this setup but it yielded .75 g/tap

That's an interesting thought - so the sap flows for a little ways down the dry line, then drops down to the wet? Are there times in the early AM when the wet line gets plugged with slush and all the sap runs out the dry line - that happens to me most mornings until the wet line thaws.

[abbott]

In a wet/dry set up no laterals enter the wet line, only side mains enter and at that point they are designed to split the wet from the air and gases. Thus you should keep the mains or maybe even shorten them but keep them, as each main comes off the wet/dry have a valve to isolate that main and then run all of the 3/16 into it. I have done this in about 2/3 of my bush and will do some more before next season. With the vacuum on the main, you can use 3/16 even on flat ground, I did it as an experiment on 3 laterals this year where many of the taps were at or some even lower than the main, when the vacuum was one at 26-27" I could not see any difference between those flat 3/16 laterals and the ones with just medium slope and total drop.
I have 3/16 on lines ranging from about 14 all the way up to one at 41 taps. I will split the 41 for next year into 2 lines, then my max. will be 30-33 taps on a 3/16 line. They just seem to work well and the part I like best is that the sap never gets passed by the air (gases). That alone helps keep the lines cleaner.
While my sugar was at record low this year, had it been at my 3 year average from the previous 3 seasons I'd have gotten just over .4 gal/tap in syrup.

I've averaged over a half gallon of syrup per tap for the last two years... my sugar was at a record high this year and I got 19 gallons of sap/tap. I hear you about not replacing "just because." I would add new taps for the next couple years, then work on replacing the current setup - by then most of the tubing will be 6-10 years old. But why replace old when there are more trees still untapped?

My current setup has stubbies and CV adapetors. Should I stick with 5/16 drops with the stubbies and adapters? Just replace spouts every year? Seems like the "perfect" spout would be the clear check valve. Stays cool, keeps sap from flowing back.

[BnSmaple]

That's an interesting thought - so the sap flows for a little ways down the dry line, then drops down to the wet? Are there times in the early AM when the wet line gets plugged with slush and all the sap runs out the dry line - that happens to me most mornings until the wet line thaws.
In this setup I have never seen it come through the dry into the releaser but the mains have very good slope. In my main woods that happens all the time

[n8hutch]

Steven you have absolutely Killed it the last few years, I guess I wouldn't change a whole lot if I was doing as well as you are, biggest up side I can see in a 3/16 system is the taps per lateral and the tubing itself is cheaper, less saddles = less potential leaks. Your Doing great #s , I wish I had some trees like yours.

[abbott]

Steven you have absolutely Killed it the last few years, I guess I wouldn't change a whole lot if I was doing as well as you are, biggest up side I can see in a 3/16 system is the taps per lateral and the tubing itself is cheaper, less saddles = less potential leaks. Your Doing great #s , I wish I had some trees like yours.

Thanks, Nate. I always tell people to maximize the advantages you have and design your system around that. I've got a lot of big old sugar maples, but only average 30-35 taps/acre. I'm not going to run right out and replace the tubing I've got up, but definitely thinking about the ideal setup for new taps and for replacing my tubing as the time comes. I have low/moderate slope, but very consistent slope - considering it's Maine woods that was never a field.

[markcasper]

What is the thinning history on your woodlot?

[abbott]

What is the thinning history on your woodlot?

The last heavy harvest was 10-12 years ago. Before I moved back to the farm and started tapping. They left the maples and took everything else valuable - made huge ruts and rubbed the bark off many trees. Thankfully my dad wanted to keep the maples - unfortunately he didn't take the time to find an outfit that would be careful. I still have mature maples dying every year - mostly right next to skidder trails. Before I tap a section I go in and thin it further with the farm tractor. In January when the ground is solid. So now the tappable maples dominate the overstory, but are sparse in places - which would potentially explain my good production per tap.

Most of the lot has beech undergrowth. There are a few pockets of young maples, but the majority of the lot has very few young trees and not a single sapling. Been meaning to start a thread on this as I've been wondering why there is no regeneration and how to encourage it.