Where's the extracto thread?

[Moser's Maple]

Political charged.....yes, but seen worse
Unpolitically correct wording.... yes, but this is agriculture and many farms I deal with act the same way.
Opinionated.... yes, but we all are
Factual information.... turns out is was factual, maybe not to the degree he thought but still factual.

I just wanted to say sorry, and thank you to extracto. I don't know you. I have no idea what your intentions were, but you presented factual information. That's what these forums were created for. I would suggest next time to change the presentation different and you should get a more favorable reaction. I also want to say I'm sorry as a moderator from a different site, and fellow trader for your friends dilemma. I want to also say sorry that your post count was brought up with the information you presented. Again I would say word things differently and you would be fine, but still no excuse for being treated unfairly because you have 13 posts and others have 1000's.
Hope everything works out.

[maple maniac65]

Since this thread was taken down a letter arrived from Vermont AG. And another from NH AG . It simply stated the plan of action.

[BAP]

Political charged.....yes, but seen worse
Unpolitically correct wording.... yes, but this is agriculture and many farms I deal with act the same way.
Opinionated.... yes, but we all are
Factual information.... turns out is was factual, maybe not to the degree he thought but still factual.

I just wanted to say sorry, and thank you to extracto. I don't know you. I have no idea what your intentions were, but you presented factual information. That's what these forums were created for. I would suggest next time to change the presentation different and you should get a more favorable reaction. I also want to say I'm sorry as a moderator from a different site, and fellow trader for your friends dilemma. I want to also say sorry that your post count was brought up with the information you presented. Again I would say word things differently and you would be fine, but still no excuse for being treated unfairly because you have 13 posts and others have 1000's.
Hope everything works out.
Where was the facts? Most of what was presented was hearsay, except for an undated letter and he was claiming that the spouts were poisonous without any proof. Yes if the OP had come and said he had heard there was some trouble with some spouts and what did others know about it,then it would have been an appropriate thread, but the way he kept going on about CDL it was borderline libel.

[GeneralStark]

This isn't the first thread that has been removed for this reason. I think it is pretty clear why it was, but I have read this: http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?29468-Site-purpose-and-rules-please-read&p=317729#post317729

Perhaps other have not....

[madmapler]

Where was the facts? Most of what was presented was hearsay, except for an undated letter and he was claiming that the spouts were poisonous without any proof. Yes if the OP had come and said he had heard there was some trouble with some spouts and what did others know about it,then it would have been an appropriate thread, but the way he kept going on about CDL it was borderline libel.

The guy whited out the some things to maintain another persons anonymity. Apparently, he was the first to go online with it because it's getting around to others now. He went a little overboard probably because he had strong feelings about what was happening to his friend. There were several who made a point of correcting him. I'm starting to become a little concerned about just what is acceptable to post about anymore regarding products. What can we say when we have valid concerns about a product flaw? For example, If I have a problem with a product and want to post about it, what would be wrong with that? It may be that someone comes on and corrects me or offers a simple solution. It's a big part of what gets talked about on this forum and it serves an important purpose. If the poster is coming on a little too strong then maybe they can be notified and asked to re-phrase some things in a new post. I really don't know how it works or what can be done. I only know that I'm wondering what is acceptable as of late. There are thousands of other posts, good and bad, about products that have been allowed to stand over the years and we all know it.

[GeneralStark]

There was at least one thread already started about this issue.

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?30346-early-season-off-flavored-syrup

Obviously discussion of products, their quality, and issues producers are having is going to be discusses here. The line, at least in the mind of the owner of this forum, is when one begins to slander a manufacturer. Clearly that happened in this case...

This is a community of people, many of whom have been here for a while, and many of whom know or have met each other outside of the "online" context of this community. When someone comes here and begins to slander someone else, I would like to think we can all agree that it is unacceptable. We don't all agree all the times, and perhaps don't really like each other, but most of the time we can have a civil conversation.

Imagine you are at a gathering with a bunch of people you know. Some you know well, and some you don't. If someone showed up and behaved in a belligerent and disrespectful manner and began slandering another individual or group at the gathering, would that be acceptable? Maybe if you all knew them and this individual was just kind of odd like the eccentric, drunk uncle many of us have it might be considered ok. But, if you had no idea who this person is, would that be ok?

[Ghs57]

As a small maple syrup producer, I am concerned when I read or hear of any issue affecting the quality of the product, and the reputation of the industry. Even more so when it involves a manufacturer whose products I use in my operation.

Based on the Vermont Department of Agriculture (VDOA) letter in the thread, I contacted Henry Marckres at the VDOA for more information. His response was that there was an “odor and off flavor” resulting from the use of some CDL black clean spout reducers. There were limited sales of these reducers, which were produced in one particular production run. Testing of the syrup and reducers is ongoing, and there is a hold on all affected syrup. The reducers have been removed from all purchasers’ operations, and sales have been stopped. CDL is developing a plan to purchase the affected syrup. Four producers have been identified in Vermont (the limit of the VDOA’s jurisdiction). Dr. Perkins has posted a notice to this effect in the UVM Proctor News forum. I would like to see CDL’s official response also.

So, attention has drawn to the issue, and remediation appears to be in the works. CDL would certainly have a vested interest in the resolution of this issue to the satisfaction of all parties.

[madmapler]

The guy was upset over what he perceived as an injustice and he "may" well be right. He did offer some seemingly valid evidence. The verdict isn't in yet. The guy was publicly chastised in that thread. Isn't that enough? GS, I think what you are describing in your post is a club, not a public forum. Sometimes we have to listen to what is "being" said and not so much "how" it was said.

[GeneralStark]

The guy was upset over what he perceived as an injustice and he "may" well be right. He did offer some seemingly valid evidence. The verdict isn't in yet. The guy was publicly chastised in that thread. Isn't that enough? GS, I think what you are describing in your post is a club, not a public forum. Sometimes we have to listen to what is "being" said and not so much "how" it was said.

But this is not a "public" forum. It is a private forum owned by "The Maple Guys" and they have ultimate control over what threads stay and what threads go. The fact that we can publicly discuss matters related to sugaring without having to pay a fee, unlike at Sugarbush Info., is something we should all be very thankful for. The owners or the moderators they trust took extracto's thread down because they don't want it in their private club that has public access.

[xyz5150]

without having to pay a fee, unlike at Sugarbush Info., .

There is no fee on sugarbush info. It costs about $900.00 dollars per year to maintain the site and that is done by donations not fees. Remember maple trader is designed to steer customers to the Maple Guys and rightfully so as the owners of The Maple Guys I'm sure pay that much if not more to host this site. Please keep this In mind when your buying, selling or bragging about equipment on this forum.

[extracto]

Just thought I should post a follow up.
I'm not suprised the administrator shut my thread down. I'm sure they got pressured into doing so or else they wouldn't have let it run for two days. I thank them for holding out as long as they did.
I looked at their rules and surmised that I was within them when I posted. I am not a dealer, employee, owner, partner and have no affiliation in any maple equipment company at present. Slander as defined in the dictionary: "Oral defamation in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which harms the reputation of the person defamed". As I know what I said to be factual there was no defamation. So if you actually read the site rules I was not out of line. Yes, I was over the top on my initial post. That was to get the attention of as many people as I could. And yes, it worked. Almost 3000 people saw the thread. Why did I use the maple forum? Because I wanted to keep this in house, within the maple community and not out to the general public. The last thing we need is for syrup to have a bad reputation. I was suprised at the number of negative posts and incredulous posts and the lack of empathy shown towards a fellow sugarmaker. Some respondents were more concerned about the maple forum than a fellow sugar maker going bankrupt. One respondent questioned the use of the word poison. Poison is defined as: "A substance with an inherent property that tends to destroy life or impair health". I'm pretty sure the VT Dept of ag wouldn't have gotten the syrup off the market if that wasn't the case. I am glad the Ag dept is doing something but government moves slowly so my intent was to speed things up and of course to add pressure to CDL to do the right thing. When a company screws up and people are hurt the first thing they should do is make that their #1 priority. My source told me CDL wasn't even returning phone calls. They had changed over spouts and paid their crew but not the crew of the producer who had spent 1000's of dollars on wages. CDL also said problem solved. Not so. every time the sap ran hard the off flavors/poison became apparent in the syrup. CDL owners should have been at his sugarhouse with check book open and shown some compassion. That is how a reputable company acts. Instead it's been 7 weeks. Good news is they are now "talking" so maybe in the end they will do the right thing. I would like to believe that my thread had something to do with their response even if just a bit. Had they acted immediately and done the right thing they could have nipped this whole thing in the bud and received praise for doing so. I would feel sorry for them if some bad employee had screwed up. I would have wanted to know immediately that said employee was fired and what changes were made so the event would never happen again. Again, that is how a responsible company handles these things. My guess is there are probably lawyers involved as well as the Ag dept and we will finally get the whole story at some point in the future. Thanks to the respondents who supported the thread. Let's all hope we never have to post another like it, and that all our equipment manufacturers know we have our fellow sugarmaker's backs.
Extracto

[FDA]

Just thought I should post a follow up.
I'm not suprised the administrator shut my thread down. I'm sure they got pressured into doing so or else they wouldn't have let it run for two days. I thank them for holding out as long as they did.
I looked at their rules and surmised that I was within them when I posted. I am not a dealer, employee, owner, partner and have no affiliation in any maple equipment company at present. Slander as defined in the dictionary: "Oral defamation in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which harms the reputation of the person defamed". As I know what I said to be factual there was no defamation. So if you actually read the site rules I was not out of line. Yes, I was over the top on my initial post. That was to get the attention of as many people as I could. And yes, it worked. Almost 3000 people saw the thread. Why did I use the maple forum? Because I wanted to keep this in house, within the maple community and not out to the general public. The last thing we need is for syrup to have a bad reputation. I was suprised at the number of negative posts and incredulous posts and the lack of empathy shown towards a fellow sugarmaker. Some respondents were more concerned about the maple forum than a fellow sugar maker going bankrupt. One respondent questioned the use of the word poison. Poison is defined as: "A substance with an inherent property that tends to destroy life or impair health". I'm pretty sure the VT Dept of ag wouldn't have gotten the syrup off the market if that wasn't the case. I am glad the Ag dept is doing something but government moves slowly so my intent was to speed things up and of course to add pressure to CDL to do the right thing. When a company screws up and people are hurt the first thing they should do is make that their #1 priority. My source told me CDL wasn't even returning phone calls. They had changed over spouts and paid their crew but not the crew of the producer who had spent 1000's of dollars on wages. CDL also said problem solved. Not so. every time the sap ran hard the off flavors/poison became apparent in the syrup. CDL owners should have been at his sugarhouse with check book open and shown some compassion. That is how a reputable company acts. Instead it's been 7 weeks. Good news is they are now "talking" so maybe in the end they will do the right thing. I would like to believe that my thread had something to do with their response even if just a bit. Had they acted immediately and done the right thing they could have nipped this whole thing in the bud and received praise for doing so. I would feel sorry for them if some bad employee had screwed up. I would have wanted to know immediately that said employee was fired and what changes were made so the event would never happen again. Again, that is how a responsible company handles these things. My guess is there are probably lawyers involved as well as the Ag dept and we will finally get the whole story at some point in the future. Thanks to the respondents who supported the thread. Let's all hope we never have to post another like it, and that all our equipment manufacturers know we have our fellow sugarmaker's backs.
Extracto

Well said!

Thank you for defining slander, maybe that word can be finally put to rest every time someone posts facts about a manufacture on here.

[madmapler]

But this is not a "public" forum. It is a private forum owned by "The Maple Guys" and they have ultimate control over what threads stay and what threads go.
I guess I'm getting the picture. I stated in the thread that was removed that I could understand if hindered sales/business relations might be the reason. It's their far"u"m. When I joined here, the rules, as I recall, were about avoiding Politics and Religion. That's something I've always respected as unbelievably difficult as it has been at times. I don't recall anything else. The new rule obviously is raising an issue with many, including myself. Threads are being deleted that contain valuable information that some have put serious thought into. Perhaps the moderator/administrator could post a warning or simply steer the thread in the right direction before deleting it for good. That way people may be able to continue with their topic of discussion and contribute to the traders well established value. Perhaps a more well defined rule could simply be referred to. No offense but isn’t that more in line with “moderation”. The only ones who benefited from the most recent deletion was CDL, not the maple community.

[GeneralStark]

Well said!

Thank you for defining slander, maybe that word can be finally put to rest every time someone posts facts about a manufacture on here.

And what facts did extracto post?

Extracto, you make some valid points. I suspect that where you crossed the line was with the accusation in your original post that CDL potentially manufactured these "black reducers" intentionally from recycled or less than appropriate materials. Perhaps this will be proven correct but at this point my take is that they are innocent until proven guilty.

I can only speak for myself, but the respect and civility of this forum is more important than conjecture regarding a manufacturer's intentions. I do have a great deal of empathy for any individual that is intentionally wronged, especially a sugarmaker, and I have empathy for any business in this industry as I know they are sugarmakers as well. Before I boycott CDL, whom I have great respect for, as I do for anyone in this industry, I think they should have a fair shake in making this right.

[BAP]

Continuing to call the spouts "POISONOUS" without any proof is slander. You have no first hand proof as such. That is the types of things that the owners of MT are trying to prevent regardless of who the manufacturer is. You are insinuating that the product is lethal with no proof it is. Just because the syrup has a bad off flavor and the Dept of Ag has put a hold on the sales of this syrup, does not mean that the syrup will kill you. Extracto, not a former Lappiere or MES dealer are you?

[Ghs57]

The guy was upset over what he perceived as an injustice and he "may" well be right. He did offer some seemingly valid evidence. The verdict isn't in yet. The guy was publicly chastised in that thread. Isn't that enough? GS, I think what you are describing in your post is a club, not a public forum. Sometimes we have to listen to what is "being" said and not so much "how" it was said.

Sean, I pretty much agree with you. Not sure I follow the "club" idea though. (By way of clarification, Dr. Tim's post is on this site, in the Maple Resources section).

Hopefully, the conclusion (or lack thereof) to this issue will be reported here. I'd like to know what caused the problem and and how a repeat will be prevented. Should the evidence indicate that the manufacturer's product is responsible for the losses suffered by these producers, the manufacturer should make them whole. It will take some time, particularly if lawyers, insurance companies and government agencies are involved (speaking from my experience as a former government employee). As extracto said, something like this could happen to any other producer, so the community should be aware of the facts when they are known.

[maple flats]

I have information from a "very reliable" source that the parts in question were bought from another manufacturer (one who had supplied CDL parts for several years) and then sold by CDL. At this point I think we should let this get worked out rather than trying to ruin any company. Let this settle and wait to see what the final details are in the end. I'll bet CDL is working on this with all their resources to get to the bottom of it. They are a top notch company and will solve the issue. Those who dwell on things like this are like vultures circling a prospective meal.