Making organic syrup loss or gain

[blissville maples]

Wonder the experience some may have in switching over to organic. Seems as though if you have the majority of your bush as 18"+ trees some 24+ with 2-3 taps In some of them and you reduce some trees from 3 to 1 tap and the other majority from 2 to 1 tap is really going to cut down production and will the extra 15cents a lb even covers the initial loss of volume let alone an increase in net profit?? I know some older trees out of 3 taps sometimes one isn't even a productive taphole due to a bad spot in tree Drill another hole or count this tree out if that happens in an organic situation?? If this happens often enough surely lose production.......... Curious how others look at it or actual numbers from some who have swapped

[Aa2tn]

Is there some kind of limit on the number of taps in a tree to be considered organic? I can't see what that would have to do with it. Actually how can any maple syrup not be organic???? Just another gimmick in my book ....

[DrTimPerkins]

The higher your vacuum, the less taps you need in a tree to achieve the maximum possible yield from that tree. When you add a 2nd tap to a tree on vacuum, even on a 24" tree, you do not double the amount of sap you get. With a 3rd tap, you get even less additional sap, and mainly are just dividing up the same amount of sap from the tree into 3 drops instead of 2. So I would argue that adding that 3rd spout or sometimes even that 2nd spout is possibly costing you due to the cost of materials (added tee, dropline and spout) and labor to put in that drop and to tap in that tree. It also costs you due to the extra possibility for leaks. So overall, your loss of production is likely to be WAY smaller than you'd think. Further, putting in 3 drops on a tree may not be sustainable in the long-term. Each taphole is a wound. Those very large trees grow new wood very slowly, so zones of compartmentalization can build up within the tapping zone. Over time you'll hit more stained wood. Yields from stained wood are EXTREMELY low. So if you hit 10% of stained wood when you tap, you're probably losing 50-90% of the potential production from those holes anyway...another reason to use good vacuum and reduce the number of tapholes. So altogether, using good sustainable tapping practices may wind up with production as high or higher than overtapping. At that point, you can consider whether changing to organic is worthwhile. There definitely are some extra costs and effort involved in organic production, but typically the added value outweighs the costs.

Note that the factors involved, yields, costs and benefits are different for gravity production. I'm talking about high vacuum production.

[GeneralStark]

VT NOFA's cert. standards are here: http://nofavt.org/sites/default/files/uploads/docs/2014_vof_maple_guidelines.pdf

Looks like 22" and over can have 3 taps...assuming a 5/16 spout. Though with high vacuum the industry standard is shifting to no more than 2.

[blissville maples]

Is there some kind of limit on the number of taps in a tree to be considered organic? I can't see what that would have to do with it. Actually how can any maple syrup not be organic???? Just another gimmick in my book ....
Your absolutely correct nice to see somebody else see through the "liberalism" garbage.....No one uses pesticides or fertilizer or any other type of altering chemical or compounds.....Isn't that what organic is?? That's what it means. Organic =of nature and sap certainly is. As far as defoamer I don't think a few drops here and there going to make anything non organic regardless of type used. Yup a gimmick for sure, corporate and CEOs love the word organic!!!!

[blissville maples]

I've heard that about additional taps Dr Tim. Hard to rationalize for me, when I watch 3 taps on 27 inches all three clear spouts are doing the same on some of the 30"+ pasture​/ farm road trees on the farm. A solid run of sap with the gas bubble at its usual interval in-between that is. If I only had one tap in that tree only one would be doing it versus 3. Maybe one tap on that tree would run like a garden hose if the three went into one, I dunno. Some of these trees would have a 4-5 maybe 6 foot crosscut, does vaccum travel that far horizontal through wood?? I can see your point on a 14-20 inch tree......But some of these momma's especially ones getting sun from 6am to 8pm in farm hedgerow no competition are huge, you look 30 feet up these tree and you have limbs that are 16" at trunk!!!

[TonyL]

Your absolutely correct nice to see somebody else see through the "liberalism" garbage.....No one uses pesticides or fertilizer or any other type of altering chemical or compounds.....Isn't that what organic is?? That's what it means. Organic =of nature and sap certainly is. As far as defoamer I don't think a few drops here and there going to make anything non organic regardless of type used. Yup a gimmick for sure, corporate and CEOs love the word organic!!!!

And so does a growing number of maple syrup consumers. And they have the disposable income to spend on organic syrup.

[spud]

Organic pays $2.75 a gallon more then standard syrup. So a guy like me with 9000 taps can make 4500 gallons of organic syrup and that pays an extra $12,375. Because I'm a sap seller I get 65% of that which is $8043.00 per season. It's worth it to go organic if you have a lot of taps.

Spud

[abbott]

The higher your vacuum, the less taps you need in a tree to achieve the maximum possible yield from that tree. When you add a 2nd tap to a tree on vacuum, even on a 24" tree, you do not double the amount of sap you get. With a 3rd tap, you get even less additional sap, and mainly are just dividing up the same amount of sap from the tree into 3 drops instead of 2. So I would argue that adding that 3rd spout or sometimes even that 2nd spout is possibly costing you due to the cost of materials (added tee, dropline and spout) and labor to put in that drop and to tap in that tree. It also costs you due to the extra possibility for leaks. So overall, your loss of production is likely to be WAY smaller than you'd think. Further, putting in 3 drops on a tree may not be sustainable in the long-term. Each taphole is a wound. Those very large trees grow new wood very slowly, so zones of compartmentalization can build up within the tapping zone. Over time you'll hit more stained wood. Yields from stained wood are EXTREMELY low. So if you hit 10% of stained wood when you tap, you're probably losing 50-90% of the potential production from those holes anyway...another reason to use good vacuum and reduce the number of tapholes. So altogether, using good sustainable tapping practices may wind up with production as high or higher than overtapping. At that point, you can consider whether changing to organic is worthwhile. There definitely are some extra costs and effort involved in organic production, but typically the added value outweighs the costs.

Note that the factors involved, yields, costs and benefits are different for gravity production. I'm talking about high vacuum production.

Well said, Dr. Tim.

Basically it boils down to this: all of the requirements to be certified organic (with maybe the exception of defoamer) are considered "best practice" by the maple industry anyway. Things like limiting the number of taps, eliminating lead contamination, and pulling taps promptly at the end of the season. Maple syrup by its nature is quite easy to produce according to organic standards, so the premium increase isn't as high as it is for other crops, but if you're basically following organic standard anyway, why not be certified? I guess the answer to that is if you think you know best and don't want to listen to authority. Which is the one thing that makes me think about giving up my certification every year.

[maplemas]

Is there some kind of limit on the number of taps in a tree to be considered organic? I can't see what that would have to do with it. Actually how can any maple syrup not be organic???? Just another gimmick in my book ....
I would not consider all my sap organic .. i tap many trees that border farm fields where chemicals and fertilizer are used ...

[blissville maples]

Abbott- are you organic?? I fear having to deal with some government idiot who is as smart as the dirt he walks on....I'm as strict as they get about my sugaring philosophy, i agree with you that it's common practice anyway, except I disagree with one tap per tree, on a 30"+ maple...I honestly hate authority and government....abraham lincoln once said " as government increases liberty decreases". We dont need people telling us what to do, well maybe some of us, but most of us especially when it comes to ridiculous thing like when to pull your taps, has nothing to do with the sap only the health of the tree which if one wants to kill their trees let them that's why it's THEIR land and let them end their maple career after a decade when trees are all scarred up. But as far as Abbot said is correct it's in line with most practice and wouldn't take much to change other than dealing with an over educated idiot inspecting your bush. Do they walk every inch of your woods??... welcome to being a stubborn traditional Vermonter!!! Someone's gotta do it, lol....

[spud]

The organic inspector only walks a very small portion of your woods. You can put 2 taps in a 30 inch tree. Last year I pulled my spouts May 10th. I'm not sure if they are supposed to be pulled sooner. You can tap undersized trees as long as they make up less then 10% of the overall woods. I did pull some spouts this year and it's only going to help those trees in the long run. I think anyone with a sizable operation should go organic and make the extra money.

Spud

[blissville maples]

Interesting, maybe not as bad as I envisioned. These are some fact I was unaware of.....What about the sugarhouse, any changes, besides foamer there?? How long did it take you to get certified....20 different visits from 10 different state folks?? Or one day bring the guy around for a couple hours walk and that's that?? Concrete floors need to be painted, walls dusted and all that?!? Lol.....Thanks for the info

[abbott]

Abbott- are you organic?? I fear having to deal with some government idiot who is as smart as the dirt he walks on....I'm as strict as they get about my sugaring philosophy, i agree with you that it's common practice anyway, except I disagree with one tap per tree, on a 30"+ maple...I honestly hate authority and government....abraham lincoln once said " as government increases liberty decreases". We dont need people telling us what to do, well maybe some of us, but most of us especially when it comes to ridiculous thing like when to pull your taps, has nothing to do with the sap only the health of the tree which if one wants to kill their trees let them that's why it's THEIR land and let them end their maple career after a decade when trees are all scarred up. But as far as Abbot said is correct it's in line with most practice and wouldn't take much to change other than dealing with an over educated idiot inspecting your bush. Do they walk every inch of your woods??... welcome to being a stubborn traditional Vermonter!!! Someone's gotta do it, lol....

Yes, but I can't really compare to not being organic since I was certified from the start - a business decision to help differentiate my product and get into retail markets.

In Maine, the inspector for MOFGA is just another farmer (though likely not a maple producer.) Probably the same deal for other state level agencies. Here's how my inspection went this year: we spent less than a half hour going over records (production & sales, tapping logs, sap logs, cleaning logs, as well as receipts for inputs like defoamer and pan cleaner. Then a quick walk through at the sap house. At that point I started boiling and he did a quick loop through the woods without me. Usually I go with, but I had a lot of sap to get to and he said it would be fine if I skipped that part. The whole thing was pretty painless.

I agree completely that it should be up to the producer if they want to over-tap and kill their trees. It certainly won't ruin the forest - it will only make it unprofitable for sugaring. It shouldn't disqualify anyone from being organic. But ultimately someone's got to set the rules and in most cases, "organic" is better for us and the environment, so you've got to decide whether you're willing to follow rules you don't always agree with.

[abbott]

Interesting, maybe not as bad as I envisioned. These are some fact I was unaware of.....What about the sugarhouse, any changes, besides foamer there?? How long did it take you to get certified....20 different visits from 10 different state folks?? Or one day bring the guy around for a couple hours walk and that's that?? Concrete floors need to be painted, walls dusted and all that?!? Lol.....Thanks for the info

The biggest headache is filling out paperwork. My walls are rough-framed with reclaimed lumber and my floor is rough concrete. As with anywhere, there's plenty of dust and debris on the floor of the saphouse. I try to keep it reasonably neat, but by no means spotless. The first inspection will probably be the longest - a couple hours sounds about right. I guess there could be a second inspection if they found a lot of things they wanted you to change, but assuming you've read the rules and are trying to follow them, one will do it.

Ok, so they aren't the most flattering photos, but they give you a decent idea of what my saphouse looks like.

1629416295

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I was going to chime in about the paperwork and reporting. Also cost is/was around $800/year to MOFGA. Large producer we work for used to do it but got tired of paperwork and didn't like having to report eveything. Certainly more money in it, each producer would have to decide for themselves.

[GeneralStark]

To clarify one common mis-conception about organic certification, this is not a "State" thing. Sure the USDA sets standards for "organic certification", but it is actually a non-profit, or in some cases a private entity that does the inspecting and certifying. Most producers in VT are inspected and certified by NOFA-VT, though there are some other certifying entities that could be an option. SO no, you won't have a bunch of Government officials coming around your sugarhouse wasting your tax dollars.

Once again, the specific NOFA-VT certification standards can be found here: http://nofavt.org/sites/default/files/files/resources/vof_guidelines_for_certification_of_organic_maple_ sap_syrup.pdf

Most requirements make very good common sense and most producers that are concerned with making a quality product are already doing these things. The largest costs associated are typically having a certified forester write a management plan, if that has not already been done, and lead testing.

[DrTimPerkins]

Organic production is not just about using organic defoamer, it is also about sustainable agricultural practices and documenting them so it is verifiable. Nobody is forcing anyone to be organic. Your choice. Some do it because they believe in the philosophy, others simply because it makes them a bit more money. Consumers like it, and are willing to pay more. Why argue with that?

[abbott]

I was going to chime in about the paperwork and reporting. Also cost is/was around $800/year to MOFGA. Large producer we work for used to do it but got tired of paperwork and didn't like having to report eveything. Certainly more money in it, each producer would have to decide for themselves.

On the cost issue... I don't have the chart in front of me, but fee is based on $$ sales. I sold about $19,000 in organic product last year and it cost $700 to be certified. But, the State sent me a check for 75% ($525) in cost-share reimbursement. So out of pocket total was $175.

If I may ask, who did you used to work with mainebackswoods? I'm always trying to visit other operations (especially bigger than me) to learn some things.

[blissville maples]

Abbot- nice pics, my sugarhouse is kept similar from what I could see. Obviously there's bark and mud on floor so I can't imagine they expect it to be spotless. Occasional drip off ceiling into pan or whatever.....Yea paperwork, I just wanna make syrup, I'd work for h+r block if I wanted to be a book keeper that's what it amount to for me. Being self employed and trying to keep up with family, enough is enough with all that paperwork......Maybe one day it will be an option for me.....Thabks all for the info I did pick up alot of info about the inspector the process etc, good luck

[Starks sugarbush]

It's a shame and sham you have to pay an organization hundreds of dollars to certify your Sugarbush organic every year.but as long as people are ignorant to the scam organic is people will take advantage of them.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

On the cost issue... I don't have the chart in front of me, but fee is based on $$ sales. I sold about $19,000 in organic product last year and it cost $700 to be certified. But, the State sent me a check for 75% ($525) in cost-share reimbursement. So out of pocket total was $175.

If I may ask, who did you used to work with mainebackswoods? I'm always trying to visit other operations (especially bigger than me) to learn some things.

Sent ya a PM.

[unc23win]

It's a shame and sham you have to pay an organization hundreds of dollars to certify your Sugarbush organic every year.but as long as people are ignorant to the scam organic is people will take advantage of them.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I don't think anyone is being taken advantage of. I wouldn't call it a sham or a marketing ploy either. Being certified organic means that you meet a standard and that you went the extra step to certify that your operation is organic. In reference to people (not necessarily on this thread) saying all Maple Syrup is organic. Ignorance would be saying your organic but still using galvanized buckets or tanks or boiling on a lead soldered evaporator (no producer in particular) is that organic by the standards of some? Maybe but not able to be cerified organic.

As it has been said it's not for everyone but packers pay more as will consumers (if you charge more) and it is in demand (read Bascoms letter) and in most cases you get 75% back. With all the recalls of basically anything produced consumer awareness is on the rise and consumers want to know what they are buying, where it came from, and most importantly how it was processed.

[motowbrowne]

It's a shame and sham you have to pay an organization hundreds of dollars to certify your Sugarbush organic every year.but as long as people are ignorant to the scam organic is people will take advantage of them.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I know that if I don't have anything nice to say I shouldn't say anything all at, especially us being neighbors and all, BUT...

It's hilarious and absurd that you write this post and describe other people as "ignorant". Just saying...

[blissville maples]

Well Starks is right it's a scam......U think 100% of organic is organic think again, cause it's likely not....The word organic has been stretched past what it means, organic means of nature nothing added, However it's being misused as a marketing scam.....Give it time and it will fly by, as people like me and others realize that organic now includes " methods and practice" rather than "of nature" it will lose its worth, it will lose what people like me see as organic. It will lose its pride of saying organic... Because it has been turned into what some modern idiot feels it should be.. or look at it like this, I think organic is a good thing, I don't spend the extra money for it since I know money always precedes good, I also know that non organic makes it in the same vat, bin, whatever. So now as people wanna say one tap per tree makes organic syrup, which has nothing to do with a healthier food product which is what I thought organic was all about, a healthier better food to give you and your kids....For all you fools, sustainable practice, conservative guidelines have absolutely nothing to do with the quality or healthful worthy qualities of any product....One tap or forty per tree it's the same syrup, it's just as good for you, and the flavor is the same. Now if you deny this, trust me your head is on your butt, likely Hillary Clinton's and Chuck Schumer's......Let's keep the organic name worth something, don't let people realize it's about nonsense like what color your sugarhouse house is, lol

[motowbrowne]

Well Starks is right it's a scam......U think 100% of organic is organic think again, cause it's likely not....The word organic has been stretched past what it means, organic means of nature nothing added, However it's being misused as a marketing scam.....Give it time and it will fly by, as people like me and others realize that organic now includes " methods and practice" rather than "of nature" it will lose its worth, it will lose what people like me see as organic. It will lose its pride of saying organic... Because it has been turned into what some modern idiot feels it should be.. or look at it like this, I think organic is a good thing, I don't spend the extra money for it since I know money always precedes good, I also know that non organic makes it in the same vat, bin, whatever. So now as people wanna say one tap per tree makes organic syrup, which has nothing to do with a healthier food product which is what I thought organic was all about, a healthier better food to give you and your kids....For all you fools, sustainable practice, conservative guidelines have absolutely nothing to do with the quality or healthful worthy qualities of any product....One tap or forty per tree it's the same syrup, it's just as good for you, and the flavor is the same. Now if you deny this, trust me your head is on your butt, likely Hillary Clinton's and Chuck Schumer's......Let's keep the organic name worth something, don't let people realize it's about nonsense like what color your sugarhouse house is, lol

Sorry, this isn't a very convincing argument. I'll leave it at that except to say one thing organic production methods aren't "all about a healthier food product". It goes beyond that. It's about producing a crop in a way that's better for the land that produces it. Does it make a better healthier product also? Sure, in some cases. Does certification always work like it should, is it immune to corruption? No, of course not. Does that make it a scam? No. It's just like Dr. Tim posted

"Organic production is not just about using organic defoamer, it is also about sustainable agricultural practices and documenting them so it is verifiable. Nobody is forcing anyone to be organic. Your choice. Some do it because they believe in the philosophy, others simply because it makes them a bit more money. Consumers like it, and are willing to pay more. Why argue with that?"
Dr. Tim Perkins

If you think it's a scam, fine, but if you go around posting that on the forum, it shouldn't surprise you that many of us will disagree with you. PS, I am not a certified organic producer.

[BAP]

Sorry, this isn't a very convincing argument. I'll leave it at that except to say one thing organic production methods aren't "all about a healthier food product". It goes beyond that. It's about producing a crop in a way that's better for the land that produces it. Does it make a better healthier product also? Sure, in some cases. Does certification always work like it should, is it immune to corruption? No, of course not. Does that make it a scam? No. It's just like Dr. Tim posted

"Organic production is not just about using organic defoamer, it is also about sustainable agricultural practices and documenting them so it is verifiable. Nobody is forcing anyone to be organic. Your choice. Some do it because they believe in the philosophy, others simply because it makes them a bit more money. Consumers like it, and are willing to pay more. Why argue with that?"
Dr. Tim Perkins

If you think it's a scam, fine, but if you go around posting that on the forum, it shouldn't surprise you that many of us will disagree with you. PS, I am not a certified organic producer.
Well said Motowbrowne. It's pointless to keep arguing this point because some people are so ignorant and full of themselves that they can NOT accept that there is more than one way to be successful and/or produce in Maple Sugaring. Wether you agree with organic or not, an open minded person will accept that there is many ways people choose to produce their products and be successful. What works for one person doesn't work for others. Everyone needs to find their own niche.

[GeneralStark]

Wow. A guy comes in here and calls other members "fools" for supporting organic practices... either this forum needs an ignore function, or better moderation. This is called a "discussion" forum not a "soapbox for me" forum for a reason.

[spud]

It's a shame and sham you have to pay an organization hundreds of dollars to certify your Sugarbush organic every year.but as long as people are ignorant to the scam organic is people will take advantage of them.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I have been a organic sap seller for six years and on average I get paid $6700 more per season. With what little it cost to be organic the rewards are great. In the last six years I have made $40,000 extra dollars. I don't see that as being a scam. Being organic is is a money maker for sure.

Spud

[southfork]

Organic simply represents a diversification in production practices and consumer preference. A diversified market is a stronger market, IMO. As producers, we all know that both organic certified and not certified syrup can be excellent, however in many cases the consumer is not that informed. For a certain market segment, the term organic represents a standard, not simply a process. Best that producers serve all market segments.
Race

[DrTimPerkins]

.... either this forum needs an ignore function, or better moderation. This is called a "discussion" forum not a "soapbox for me" forum for a reason.

There are several buttons on the bottom left of each post which allow viewers to "add to the viewers reputation", to "report infraction" or to "report post". Use them as you see fit. If enough people find something inappropriate, the moderators will likely respond in some manner.

Additionally....after a point, the phrase "don't feed the trolls" (ignore the person posting inappropriate things) becomes a useful course of action.

[blissville maples]

That's good spud for those that have changed.....Really seems as though some are taking offense to these posts......Don't feed the fire, well if you can't handle it don't participate in the conversation, that's simple don't need to involve a moderator I don't hear anyone swearing at anyone!!! It's a very legit conversation about weather or not it's a scam, the whole organic label....Just talked to a organic grain guy- he said he sells.more organic than he buys, lol, how is that think about it he didn't say it outright but non organic being sold as organic all across the board.....I have 4 bushes if 2 are certified and the other two aren't who's to say I didn't sell it all as organic...The scam of it all is organic these days DOESN'T imply what organic was meant to or should mean, which is of nature, natural...Ok many people who aren't organic are abiding by organic guidelines, one tap per tree etc. So their syrup is all but organic already if they are conservative tapper's, right before end been conservative for years and worry about my trees health and kids being able to tap them. Well guess I'm organic now cuz I'm all about sustainable lol......Ok so what has really changed but someone has certified you.....By allowing sustainable to be classified organic is stepping on your own feet as some people buy organic because its pesticides and synthetic fertilizer free and better for their health not because it's sustainable or better practice. .When they see it become about sustainable and not about what's in the product , they will dissipate as they see true organic as just a gimmic and not necessarily healthier, like we're trying to tell you.....Is the glass half full or half empty....Always two ways to look at things

[blissville maples]

Organic simply represents a diversification in production practices and consumer preference. A diversified market is a stronger market, IMO. As producers, we all know that both organic certified and not certified syrup can be excellent, however in many cases the consumer is not that informed. For a certain market segment, the term organic represents a standard, not simply a process. Best that producers serve all market segments.
Race
I thought organic was pesticides and synthetic free, guess I'm way off.....Now it's including processes and consumer preference, how do you change the meaning of something??

[blissville maples]

Please explain to me how diversification and preference has anything to do with organic?? And if it makes sense I won't post again for all who probably can't stand how we traditional folk think

[southfork]

There are a variety of ever changing consumer types, each preferring certain offerings. To some consumers it is simply the price, to others the shelf presentation is most important, to still others the perceived wholesomeness may be the factor that triggers the purchase response. The list goes on and on to include regional preferences, perceived product safety, syrup grade or color, all natural, gluten free, maple blends, container shape and size, Kosher.... you name it, there is a customer who will prefer it.

To answer your question, the "organic" label purchaser may be different than the general maple syrup consumer, that is a diversification of preference. Therefore, to meet consumer demands there needs to be diverse offerings.

To be real blunt, if you do not want to produce maple syrup under the organic label, well...don't!

[blissville maples]

I don't produce organic like you say.....But I can't understand how diversification and organic are being intertwined, they are two different things. Like Ford and Dodge you don't create a fordge.....Even if you want to you can't. Just for the record organic and diversification or consumer choice IS NOT organic and never will or can be. Apples are apples and oranges are oranges leave it alone... You have a Grand ole Time pushing That over to educated folks southfork, good luck sugaring me and you have nothing in common.

[southfork]

I did not create the organic certification, nor the market for organic syrup. You may want to take your certification concerns up with the USDA. As far as consumer preference, I did not create that either, better take that up with consumers. I might add, two of my smaller bushes are not organic certified.

Good luck, I hope you and all syrup makers have a nice year, Race

[berkshires]

Blissville, you seem to have two problems with organic syrup. The first is the idea that organic should have anything to do with sustainable practices. This is a fair argument - not one I agree with, but I'm sure many see it the same as you, and I won't argue with that.

The other is this:


Ok many people who aren't organic are abiding by organic guidelines, one tap per tree etc. So their syrup is all but organic already if they are conservative tapper's, right before end been conservative for years and worry about my trees health and kids being able to tap them. Well guess I'm organic now cuz I'm all about sustainable lol......Ok so what has really changed but someone has certified you

The way I see it you're arguing against paperwork and certification. Well this is just silly. I mean if you want to claim that you're meeting a specific standard set up by the government, shouldn't you be willing to prove it? People who are doing the organic syrup thing have already come on here to show that it's not an overly intrusive or involved process. So that just leaves the fact that you don't think the maple producer should have to answer to anyone. Okay, but if the customer wants organic, should they just take your word for it? They don't know you from Adam, and like you said, organic syrup doesn't taste any different, so they need a certifying body to show that you're not the one pulling the scam. This kind of thing keeps everyone on the same page. I'm just a hobby guy, but I see nothing wrong with that.

Cheers,

Gabe

[blissville maples]

My point is pretty simple folks.....When people realize organic doesn't necessarily mean pesticides and synthetics free, they won't see it as worth spending the extra money...Your essentially devaluing your product by involving systems that don't really have anything to do with consumer health which is why organic buyers buy organic....No peticide no synthetic crap.....They not buying organic syrup cause u used safflower oil and only placed o e tap per tree, lol, some will never understand.......But u keep stepping on your own toes ( if your organic)......The word genuine comes to mind......

[blissville maples]

Your selling to health freaks that know nothing about sustainable tapping, and alot likely could care less or overlook it anyways

[spud]

My point is pretty simple folks.....When people realize organic doesn't necessarily mean pesticides and synthetics free, they won't see it as worth spending the extra money...Your essentially devaluing your product by involving systems that don't really have anything to do with consumer health which is why organic buyers buy organic....No peticide no synthetic crap.....They not buying organic syrup cause u used safflower oil and only placed o e tap per tree, lol, some will never understand.......But u keep stepping on your own toes ( if your organic)......The word genuine comes to mind......

I'm organic and I am not stepping on my own toes. You are right to say most organic syrup buyers may have no understanding of why it's labeled organic. Organic buyers can think whatever they want to think about the product they buy. Their thoughts could be right or they could be wrong but what do you care? Bottom line is certifying your woods as organic will make you more money. This is a decision each sugar maker can make on their own. I think the people arguing about organic are just jealous. It kills them to think we make $2.50 more a gallon for a product that might not be any better then their non organic syrup. I have no problem with people that choose to be non organic. I do have a problem with non organic people that complain about the organic standards. Every time they speak they make a fool of themselves but their too uneducated to understand that. Someone needs to hammer tac a stupid sign on their forehead. I am a firm believer that stupid people should not breed.

Spud

[BAP]

I'm organic and I am not stepping on my own toes. You are right to say most organic syrup buyers may have no understanding of why it's labeled organic. Organic buyers can think whatever they want to think about the product they buy. Their thoughts could be right or they could be wrong but what do you care? Bottom line is certifying your woods as organic will make you more money. This is a decision each sugar maker can make on their own. I think the people arguing about organic are just jealous. It kills them to think we make $2.50 more a gallon for a product that might not be any better then their non organic syrup. I have no problem with people that choose to be non organic. I do have a problem with non organic people that complain about the organic standards. Every time they speak they make a fool of themselves but their too uneducated to understand that. Someone needs to hammer tac a stupid sign on their forehead. I am a firm believer that stupid people should not breed.

Spud
Well said Spud. I'm not organic, at this time, only because I don't make enough yet to make it worthwhile. But I feel that it is a good way to earn extra money for your product and fully support it. It is up to each Producer to decide wether they want to be a part of it or not. There is plenty of market for each way. As with any business selling a product, you need to cater to what the consumer wants. The reason they want it is irrelevant. They are the ones paying for the product and supporting your business.

[motowbrowne]

Blissville, you just aren't making sense, man. Have you also considered telling BMW and Mercedes that there are manufacturers who make cars that are much cheaper, and when consumers realize it, their market will dry up?

Another point, since you're telling organic producers that they're hurting their own business (again, not making sense). Right now, lots of organic syrup is being made. Would you actually rather these producers stop making organic and instead compete in the conventional market? The only thing that's gonna do is make things harder for the test of the conventional producers, like you. Right now, there's millions of taps that you don't have to compete with. Why argue with that?

[motowbrowne]

In particular, my favorite part of blissville's argument is that he says organic producers are "devaluing" their product while simultaneously adding about $2.50/gallon to the price they get...

[berkshires]

Blissville's only argument worth discussing is that sustainable tapping practices should not be part of the definition of organic syrup production. In his defense, to the degree that organic consumers think that all that matters is what's in the bottle, he's right. The fact is, though, that I'd guess a small minority of organic consumers would agree with him. Most have a general idea that it's "real food, grown and made the right way. Better for the environment, and better for me."

Wikipedia's definition (which I suppose represents some kind of loose consensus) is:

Organic food is food produced by methods that comply with the standards of organic farming. Standards vary worldwide, but organic farming in general features practices that strive to cycle resources, promote ecological balance, and conserve biodiversity. Organizations regulating organic products may restrict the use of certain pesticides and fertilizers in farming. In general, organic foods are also usually not processed using irradiation, industrial solvents or synthetic food additives.

The part I put in bold is precisely what factors into the definitions around sustainable practices of tapping. I think most organic consumers hope that they don't need to know all about the growing and harvesting and producing of every kind of food. So long as they buy something that says organic, it should be "better for the environment". I think that's precisely what the part of the regulations that blissville is railing against sets out to accomplish.

So, it's a reasonable argument, it's just wrong LOL.

[saphound]

I think it would be hard to find anyone here that taps trees that also don't want "sustainability". It just wouldn't make much sense to abuse your maple trees if you want to continue tapping them.
The thing about the "organic" label that I've always had a hard time with, is why organic products..not necessarily just syrup.. but fruits and veggies also..always cost more. They (organic)don't have to spend the untold thousands of dollars on pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, non-organic fertilizers, etc not to mention the equipment and labor costs required to apply them to produce blemish free apples, peppers, corn.. whatever. I understand the consumer desire for food without that stuff but it seems to me it should be cheaper, not more expensive. There are no very expensive chemical and labor costs to try to recoup. Just seems upside down to me.
From what I've read here though, syrup producers just need to recoup filing fees, forest management fees, a bunch of pita paperwork to fill out..but not much else, and it makes economic sense for some to do so. As Dr.Tim said...why argue with that? I won't.

[abbott]

I think it would be hard to find anyone here that taps trees that also don't want "sustainability". It just wouldn't make much sense to abuse your maple trees if you want to continue tapping them.
The thing about the "organic" label that I've always had a hard time with is why organic products..not just syrup.. but fruits and veggies also..always cost more. They (organic)don't have to spend the untold thousands of dollars on pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, non-organic fertilizers, etc required to produce good looking apples, peppers, corn, whatever. I understand the consumer desire for food without that stuff but it seems to me it should be cheaper, not more expensive. There is no very expensive "chemical" costs to try to recoup. Just seems upside down to me.

1. Because they can. 2. Lower productivity (shouldn't be the case with maple, though.) 3. More labor intensive (or, in many cases more expensive to buy an organic pesticide as opposed to a synthetic one.) The cost of production of organic on a large sale really is higher.

That being said, what really bothers me is when people try to sell organic produce of a far lower quality for more. If it's high quality, then great, charge more. But not if its blemished and bug-eaten.

Personally, my goal is to sell my organic syrup (and produce) for the same price that everyone else is charging for non-organic. I look at it as a way to separate my product to gain and keep customers. And just in case you don't think it can be done, I grew (and sold) 39k of vegetables on less than a half acre last year. Well, to be fair, my wife helped some. :) And no, that's not all profit, but we're doing all right!

[motowbrowne]

I think it would be hard to find anyone here that taps trees that also don't want "sustainability". It just wouldn't make much sense to abuse your maple trees if you want to continue tapping them.
The thing about the "organic" label that I've always had a hard time with, is why organic products..not necessarily just syrup.. but fruits and veggies also..always cost more. They (organic)don't have to spend the untold thousands of dollars on pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, non-organic fertilizers, etc not to mention the equipment and labor costs required to apply them to produce blemish free apples, peppers, corn.. whatever. I understand the consumer desire for food without that stuff but it seems to me it should be cheaper, not more expensive. There are no very expensive chemical and labor costs to try to recoup. Just seems upside down to me.
From what I've read here though, syrup producers just need to recoup filing fees, forest management fees, a bunch of pita paperwork to fill out..but not much else, and it makes economic sense for some to do so. As Dr.Tim said...why argue with that? I won't.

I understand what you're saying, but you have to realize that using chemicals is far far cheaper than doing things either with manual labor or mechanically. Lots of commodity crops are produced using no-till methods today. Which do you think is cheaper, spraying glyphosate on 500 acres or plowing it? Fruits and vegetables are very expensive and labor intensive to grow organically in comparison to conventional crops also. Just like Steven said, organic crops also require inputs and they are more expensive.

[blissville maples]

Thanks​Berkshires someone finally realized my argument, the part that should make sense to you all............. Sustainable doesn't matter.......You are all making the 2.50 more a gallon now, but wait until the demand for organic goes down, I see it as a fad, and when people or consumer discover the liberal ethics of it pertaining to sustainable and all this other hogwash they will see it's no HEALTHIER, which is why now they are willing to pay more, but in the FUTURE when they see organic as a money maker to producers and their idea of HEALTHIER is gone, I believe there goes your extra 2.50 a gal extra as you have no verifiable health+.....U need to remember this will take a few years, yes today your getting the extra but by not sticking to true organic standards and ideas of some, in coming years the trend will dissipate watch and learn, it's called stepping on your own toes by trumping to everyone but organic it's Sustainable, sustainable isn't organic I'll never believe otherwise.. spud- your jealous or threaten by someone more intelligent then you, lol I can see this. You hate to think you may be wrong, but yes you are......So u admit that you like selling organic syrup to the portion of organic buyers who are dis Intelligent and may be buying something they are unaware of, yup your part of the organic gimmick no wonder your a die hard supporter, you should be ashamed of yourself for stealing hard earned money when you know there no difference between the two. Furthermore you realize people may not be up to speed about organic vs sustainable, and are ok with the trickery.....Shame on you, you must be a implanted Vermonter from wall Street, who loves doing wrong to people....Unreal, stealing people money from selling them organic and then try to tread on me for letting the truth about this huge gimmick out....Yea well u stand there and keep stealing your money for your organic syrup which no different than anyone else's.... Typical oh and just for record spud you wouldn't last five seconds in a conversation with me, cuz id make you feel about as smart as a fart in a whirlwind, that's a fact, you couldn't run with moi....Like at .17 cents a pound x11 pounds doesn't equal 2.50 a gal more.....And Bascoms only paying 2.30lb vs 2.15 non organic..... Hmm something not making sense... I'm sure you have different figure though which only relates to only you, ha

[blissville maples]

In particular, my favorite part of blissville's argument is that he says organic producers are "devaluing" their product while simultaneously adding about $2.50/gallon to the price they get...
Watch and see...... Give it time, time tells all.....Where this 2.50 a gal coming from....More like .17 cents a lb Hope you guys doing math correctly or your way off in calculations, making organic seem even better to you...One guy I believe sound said he made an extra 40,000 in 6 years I believe with organic...Do the math, to get an extra 40,000 dollars at .15 a lb you would have to make like 25,000 gals in 6 years....Your a large producer eh? And Moto what the hell does bmw and Mercedes ja e to do with organic....Cars are cars they don't have organic cars....With cars u get what u pay for , we have already established that organic and non organic syrup likely taste the exact same....Go spout off somewhere else please no one wants to hear nothing......What is this world coming to

[blissville maples]

I have been a organic sap seller for six years and on average I get paid $6700 more per season. With what little it cost to be organic the rewards are great. In the last six years I have made $40,000 extra dollars. I don't see that as being a scam. Being organic is is a money maker for sure.

Spud. So you sell roughly 4000 gals a year all organic???

[blissville maples]

I have been a organic sap seller for six years and on average I get paid $6700 more per season. With what little it cost to be organic the rewards are great. In the last six years I have made $40,000 extra dollars. I don't see that as being a scam. Being organic is is a money maker for sure.

Spud
Was trying to find your total number of taps on your profile, no luck. But see where you say a guy is paying you 6.50 per tap to lease ur land......Lol whoa what.......Do u realize that bulk syrup at .5 gpt u get 11 bux per tap and that's a great yield....And he giving you 60percent of his yeildt?? Maybe I'm not reading correctly or maybe your figures are to make you feel good and way out of ballpark.....And I thought 2 bux a tap was high. Some people are good talkers and some people you can take their word and count on it...

[GeneralStark]

Blissville-your logic is dizzying...a fart in a whirlwind sums it up well I would say...

[saphound]

I understand what you're saying, but you have to realize that using chemicals is far far cheaper than doing things either with manual labor or mechanically. Lots of commodity crops are produced using no-till methods today. Which do you think is cheaper, spraying glyphosate on 500 acres or plowing it? Fruits and vegetables are very expensive and labor intensive to grow organically in comparison to conventional crops also. Just like Steven said, organic crops also require inputs and they are more expensive.
Hi Motowbrowne, In answer to your question of which is cheaper, I would think plowing it is cheaper. Same amount of time and gas needed..well maybe more fuel needed to plow than spray..but no spray or sprayer involved either. But I can't speak from any experience so I guess I'll just bow out of this discussion...except to say I wish all the organic growers had the same goal as Abbott does..
quote:
"Personally, my goal is to sell my organic syrup (and produce) for the same price that everyone else is charging for non-organic..."

Probably never going to happen in the general marketplace, but it's a nice (and admirable) goal, imo. ;)

[BAP]

Blissville, you keep claiming how "Super Smart" and how you "Are Better" than everyone else you are, but you write your posts in the same way that someone talks when they get fallen down drunk. Most people write in complete sentences not gibberish. You also always show up on this forum each year about half way through the season to tell everyone else what a bunch of idiots we all are because you are the only one who is smart enough to know what is really going on with sugaring BUT you never offer anything constructive to this great forum. This forum is full of a lot of Great Sugarmakers that will go out of their way to help others solve problems and give advice. It is a shame that every forum ends up with one or two TROLLS that ruins it. Normally I don't write posts like this but I hate to see a good, very informative forum, that is filled with some great people get dragged down to the gutter.

[spud]

. So you sell roughly 4000 gals a year all organic???

Yes I do sell roughly 4000-4500 Gallons per season. I sell the Organic sap and then get paid 65% of bulk (Organic ). I have 9000 taps in my woods. I am leasing a portion of my woods to a neighbor who will be buying that portion of land in 2020. The arraignment I have with the neighbor is that he pays me $6.50 per tap for the next four years. It's a great deal for both of us but I cannot get into the details.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

This thread, particularly certain posts, makes me realize the importance of punctuation. Without it I can't hardly understand a thing without taking an inordinate amount of time trying to read just a couple of posts. I find it easier to just ignore the whole thing.

[blissville maples]

Blissville, you keep claiming how "Super Smart" and how you "Are Better" than everyone else you are, but you write your posts in the same way that someone talks when they get fallen down drunk. Most people write in complete sentences not gibberish. You also always show up on this forum each year about half way through the season to tell everyone else what a bunch of idiots we all are because you are the only one who is smart enough to know what is really going on with sugaring BUT you never offer anything constructive to this great forum. This forum is full of a lot of Great Sugarmakers that will go out of their way to help others solve problems and give advice. It is a shame that every forum ends up with one or two TROLLS that ruins it. Normally I don't write posts like this but I hate to see a good, very informative forum, that is filled with some great people get dragged down to the gutter.
I said I'm super smart and better than you....Show me where I said I'm better.....Also check my other thread on verifying RO temp, releaser thread, and ma y others I've started and replied to......I'm not being a jerk but u all keep talking about this sustainable being organic blah blah blah...It is not and I will never pass up the opportunity to correct someone about that.......I'm 34, started a business in August 2005, bough a home in 2009.... Tore it out and rebuild a 3400 sq ft home in 6 months with little help. I'm not on welfare and am paying 20-30k on taxes a year payroll, property, etc.....Don't even start with me about my credentials.....And for you who can't put my words together with a typo here and there, give it up.no reason to be the most proper person In the world, go shave u have a whisker showing, liberals- I hate'em.....Y'all need to live and not worry about your North face t-shirts and try to change the meaning of things like organic, liberals are ruining the world enough as it is and it wont be happen Infront of me

[DrTimPerkins]

Thread is closed.