ProCon Pump Question after recirc

[Luisc]

I have a Axeon XLE 4x4040 and running a ProCon 330GPH with a Marathon 3/4 HP motor. I was running it at 150 psi without recirculaiton with no problem. I added 3 flow meters to see COncentrate, Permeate Flow, and Recir flow and 2 needle valves. Now i cannot get anything past 100 psi after recirculating the concentrate back into the inlet side of the pump.

Is my pump not powerful enough after recirculating the Concentrate?


Thanks,
Luis

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Your pump is adequate. I have a Dow XLE 4040 (4"x40"), same pump, but a stronger motor. Your motor is plenty. From the concentrate side I have a tee that goes to two needle valves. One to the flow meter for concentrate, and the other is recirculation. When I start up I close the recirc valve a little and close the concentrate valve to get the flow I want. Then I use the recirc valve to increase pressure, then fine tune the concentrate valve. As the pressure is increased by the recirc valve the permeate flow is being adjusted as well.

The concentrate flow doesn't change a whole lot while I increase pressure. I can go all the way up until it over-pressures and shuts off. I think you may be need to close your recirc valve more to increase pressure. If I didn't do that then I would have a hard time getting enough pressure to concentrate the way I want.

I have been consistently getting over 70% water removal in a single pass at about 13 gph with this setup. Warmer sap can get 75% when the membrane is clean. I drop down to under 35 gph water removal (permeate flow) when it's cold.

I think you are close, but need to play around. I set my permeate to about 0.6 gallons/min. and concentrate 0.22 gallons/min. to achieve this. I can get these flows initially at 150-180 psi but usually stabilize at 230 psi. Cold sap is 240 psi, and a steadily fouling membrane will decrease performance.

[Luisc]

Your pump is adequate. I have a Dow XLE 4040 (4"x40"), same pump, but a stronger motor. Your motor is plenty. From the concentrate side I have a tee that goes to two needle valves. One to the flow meter for concentrate, and the other is recirculation. When I start up I close the recirc valve a little and close the concentrate valve to get the flow I want. Then I use the recirc valve to increase pressure, then fine tune the concentrate valve. As the pressure is increased by the recirc valve the permeate flow is being adjusted as well.

The concentrate flow doesn't change a whole lot while I increase pressure. I can go all the way up until it over-pressures and shuts off. I think you may be need to close your recirc valve more to increase pressure. If I didn't do that then I would have a hard time getting enough pressure to concentrate the way I want.

I have been consistently getting over 70% water removal in a single pass at about 13 gph with this setup. Warmer sap can get 75% when the membrane is clean. I drop down to under 35 gph water removal (permeate flow) when it's cold.

I think you are close, but need to play around. I set my permeate to about 0.6 gallons/min. and concentrate 0.22 gallons/min. to achieve this. I can get these flows initially at 150-180 psi but usually stabilize at 230 psi. Cold sap is 240 psi, and a steadily fouling membrane will decrease performance.



I think the way i setup the bypass for the pump is incorrect then? Can you post a pic of how your pump is bypassed? I can post a pic of mine but would be happy to see how you have your pump setup.

THanks for the response.

[Bricklayer]

If your not able to increase or decrease the pressure with your recirc valve then it's probley plumbed wrong.

From the membranes concentrate outlet I installed a tube about 8" long then put a T. One end of tee goes to the concentrate needle valve. Then from the valve to the concentrate flow meter. Then out to the concentrate tank

For recirc other side of tee goes to a recirc needle valve. Then from the valve to the recirc flow meter then from the flow meter to the inlet of the hp pump.

If your not able to use the recirc valve to control pressure you probley teed off your concentrate line after the concentrate flowmeter.

With recirc properly plumbed if you close recirc valve your concentrate out goes up and your pressure increases and if you open recirc valve the concentrate out goes down and the pressure goes down .

I would post a picture of mine but it's impossible to get it in one picture. I will try to draw up a diagram and see if I can post it

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Pictures of mine. I really need to rework the valves so they are panel mounted. Not very ergonomic, but it was a last minute add-on for the second needle valve. 1623416235

[Bricklayer]

Pictures of mine. I really need to rework the valves so they are panel mounted. Not very ergonomic, but it was a last minute add-on for the second needle valve. 1623416235

I like the sanitary needle valve. Beautiful.
I had my recirc line teeing off like that originally. I found I got better flow when I flipped it so that the flow was straight through with the supply to the membrane through the t and the pressure to the side. Then the flow doesn't have to go through a 90 degree elbow right at the pump. You might notice a difference if you change it. But if it ain't broke don't fix it. Maybe something to fiddle with after the season is over.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

I like the sanitary needle valve. Beautiful.
I had my recirc line teeing off like that originally. I found I got better flow when I flipped it so that the flow was straight through with the supply to the membrane through the t and the pressure to the side. Then the flow doesn't have to go through a 90 degree elbow right at the pump. You might notice a difference if you change it. But if it ain't broke don't fix it. Maybe something to fiddle with after the season is over.

Are you saying the recirculation line should go straight in and the low pressure feed from the shallow well pump should be at the 90? I guess I don't totally understand what you are saying.

[Luisc]

Can you tell me where you purchased the needle valve from I tried to order from freshwatersystems and they are on bck order.

[Luisc]

If your not able to increase or decrease the pressure with your recirc valve then it's probley plumbed wrong.

From the membranes concentrate outlet I installed a tube about 8" long then put a T. One end of tee goes to the concentrate needle valve. Then from the valve to the concentrate flow meter. Then out to the concentrate tank

For recirc other side of tee goes to a recirc needle valve. Then from the valve to the recirc flow meter then from the flow meter to the inlet of the hp pump.

If your not able to use the recirc valve to control pressure you probley teed off your concentrate line after the concentrate flowmeter.

With recirc properly plumbed if you close recirc valve your concentrate out goes up and your pressure increases and if you open recirc valve the concentrate out goes down and the pressure goes down .

I would post a picture of mine but it's impossible to get it in one picture. I will try to draw up a diagram and see if I can post it

Thank you, I found a diagram from Bowhunter and i had my recirc plumbed incorrectly. I am now seeing higher pressure as before :)...

[Bricklayer]

Are you saying the recirculation line should go straight in and the low pressure feed from the shallow well pump should be at the 90? I guess I don't totally understand what you are saying.

In the picture on the left of the procon. I'm assuming the copper line is a line to a pressure gauge? And the stainless braided line is to the membrane.
I switched mine around and it worked better. Got better flows

[Urban Sugarmaker]

In the picture on the left of the procon. I'm assuming the copper line is a line to a pressure gauge? And the stainless braided line is to the membrane.
I switched mine around and it worked better. Got better flows

Yes, the copper goes to the pressure gauge. So you are saying the SS braided line to the membrane should be where the copper pressure gauge line is to increase flows. I'll have to try that for next season.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

Can you tell me where you purchased the needle valve from I tried to order from freshwatersystems and they are on bck order.

If you are asking me, I got mine at Direct Material but I don't think they carry panel mount valves. https://www.directmaterial.com/stainless-steel-316-needle-valves-10-000psi.html

[Bricklayer]

Yes, the copper goes to the pressure gauge. So you are saying the SS braided line to the membrane should be where the copper pressure gauge line is to increase flows. I'll have to try that for next season.

Just a suggestion. I switched mine around and noticed I picked up a little more flow. My guess is that it's not deadheading the liquid right out of the pump and letting it flow straight. 90's decrease the flow especially right off the pump.

[Luisc]

If you are asking me, I got mine at Direct Material but I don't think they carry panel mount valves. https://www.directmaterial.com/stainless-steel-316-needle-valves-10-000psi.html

I looked at those in 1/2" NPT version, but the hole looks tiny(5mm). I was wondering if they can flow 5 GPM. So you have the ones from directmail and can flow alot of fluid?

Thank,
Luis

[Urban Sugarmaker]

I looked at those in 1/2" NPT version, but the hole looks tiny(5mm). I was wondering if they can flow 5 GPM. So you have the ones from directmail and can flow alot of fluid?

Thank,
Luis

I have the 1/2" NPT and the flow just fine for me.