new filter press not filling

[markcasper]

I bought a new 10" filter press and I have ran into the fact that the plates are not filling completely with sand/filter aid. What am I doing wrong?? On my old 7" press you could get the plates completely packed 100% full before it'd quit letting the syrup through. Note: the syrup is going in at 190-200 degrees and am using a comparable amount of filter aid for the plates I'm using. I was just expecting the plates to be packed solid and they are not and I end up getting shut down. ?Thanks.

[wiam]

Use more filter aid. I found that I had to use more when I went from a 7 to a 10. Or maybe it just seemed like more.

[madmapler]

I had to look to see if this was the thread I posted a few weeks ago. Almost the same thing. What I learned on my own was the pump was pumping too hard and blowing out the plates well before the plates were half full. It didn't matter how much DE I threw at it. When we took it apart, the papers had taken the imprint of the waffle pattern(much more than what's normal). I tried letting some of the syrup bypass and by keeping the pressure at 40 or below the press fills right up. It goes slower but we can keep ahead of things. We process 5 gallons at a time and can get about 85 gallons through it typically but if we run it full pressure, it blows out and DE actually passes through the paper. People say it can't happen but it does. It'll start passing DE ( no paper tears anywhere) and if we cut back on the pressure, it runs clear again. It isn't at all like my old 7" press. It seems like you couldn't go wrong with it. One thing that we do different than with the 7" is prime the press with 2 coffee cans(7or 8 cups) DE in the first 5 gallons and 1 can in the second. It's I cup per bucket after that.

[JoeJ]

This is my second year with a 5 hollow plate 10" press. I pre-charge with 14 cups in the first 5 gallons. I changed how I added the rest of the DE after Maple Flats posted how he added his DE after the pre-charge. I now add 3 cups of DE in each of the following 5 gallon batches until the full amount of DE to pack the press is added in. It takes 56 cups to fill my press and after I have added the 56 cups, I just filter until the pressure goes to 40 PSI then I change it. Last night was the second time I used the same set of papers and DE. Monday I did about 17 gallons, then last evening I did 86 gallons and the pressure was only at 20 PSI at the end. I added the last of the DE near the end of the boil. So I will reheat the press on the next boil, not add any more DE and just filter until the pressure goes up.

[madmapler]

This is my second year with a 5 hollow plate 10" press. I pre-charge with 14 cups in the first 5 gallons. I changed how I added the rest of the DE after Maple Flats posted how he added his DE after the pre-charge. I now add 3 cups of DE in each of the following 5 gallon batches until the full amount of DE to pack the press is added in. It takes 56 cups to fill my press and after I have added the 56 cups, I just filter until the pressure goes to 40 PSI then I change it. Last night was the second time I used the same set of papers and DE. Monday I did about 17 gallons, then last evening I did 86 gallons and the pressure was only at 20 PSI at the end. I added the last of the DE near the end of the boil. So I will reheat the press on the next boil, not add any more DE and just filter until the pressure goes up. I'm trying to grasp what you're saying. If you charge with 14 cups the first 5 then add 3 cups to every 5 after that, it means you reach 56 cups after 15- 5 gallon pails which comes to 75 gallons of syrup and the press is full. Right? So how do you go over 100 gallons? It sounds like you're getting well over that. Once the press is full, it shouldn't take anymore. I'd like to be able to do that with mine. We make over 100 on a good night.

[markcasper]

I guess the long and short of it is that I'm not using enough D E. I have not been "charging " the press either as i bought a 2x4 finish pan mainly to keep the syrup hot before going in. Maybe I'll run 5 gallons off the evap. heavy on the DE and then go from there. I have noticed that yes, the papers are VERY imprented much more than my old 7". Gotta love the air pump though!

[JoeJ]

I'm trying to grasp what you're saying. If you charge with 14 cups the first 5 then add 3 cups to every 5 after that, it means you reach 56 cups after 15- 5 gallon pails which comes to 75 gallons of syrup and the press is full. Right? So how do you go over 100 gallons? It sounds like you're getting well over that. Once the press is full, it shouldn't take anymore. I'd like to be able to do that with mine. We make over 100 on a good night.
Sean,
Yes, that is right. After adding the 56 cups of DE, the press hollow plates are over 95% packed. (probably should add another 3 cups to make it 59) After the 56 cups, the packed DE just keeps filtering until plugged. Last Monday, the previous set of papers and DE filtered a total of 118 gallons. I did not add any more DE after the 75 gal mark. The multiple layers of 3 cups of DE allow the filtering to continue. When I take the press apart to clean it, I can look at a chunk of packed DE and see dark strips in the layers of DE meaning that the DE is building up correctly. The center of the DE in the plates are always coated with a heavier layer of junk. With Wednesday's set of papers and DE at 20 PSI, I should be able to get another 20 - 25 gal through before changing.

I have seen sugar makers add an un- measured amount of DE 3 or 4 times to a draw off tank and that is good enough. Large batch dumping of DE (IMO) does not allow enough small layers of DE to build up to filter higher amounts of syrup. What is going to filter better? 4 thick layers of DE dumped in occasionally or 15 thin layers added systematically? Once the surface of each layer of DE is coated with junk, the filtering ability of that layer is diminished. So the more layers, the more filtering.

Joe

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

But as the season progresses and the syrup has a lot more junk it in it won't take 56 gallons to fill press due to all the junk and nitre in the syrup.

[maple flats]

The trick is to use enough DE so that no layer gets plugged up without filling the void too fast. On a 10" press you essentially have twice the surface area that you had on a 7" press, so you need to use 2x the amount of DE per plate that was needed on a 7". Once the filter cake is built up, you can use less but if you go too low on DE it will plug earlier. Realize also that the syrup changes thru the season and year to year. What worked good last week may not do as well this week and the same from year to year. You just need to learn to interpret what your press is telling you and adapt accordingly.
Late season will never filter as easily as early season, but the amounts needed may have a big variance early to late and also season to season. Do not simply get into a routine and think it will always be the best way. If you keep getting more thru than you have at other times, the press may be telling you to use a little less DE and the opposite, if it plugs earlier, use more. The big cause will be the niter characteristic and amount of niter, that is never a constant.
For example, my niter this year has mostly been a very fine silty cloud that is seldom depositing on the pan and some years it just cakes on the bottom of the syrup pan way too soon. Those two types will manifest themselves in needing different amounts of DE. I can only recall one other year when it has been like a super fine silt like it has this year, but for about 3 days in the middle it changed from the silty to caking. On those days I had to reverse the flow far more often and had to clean the pans more, then after those 3 days for some reason it went back to silty. When I have the silty form the pans boil very nicely without showing signs of needing to reverse the flow for as much as 2-3 times as long.
Those 2 types also are different to filter. I adapt as needed. I used to do every batch the same when filtering, then I started to recognize patterns, I now start with my usual pre-charge amount, but then I try using less on later filterings, if the pressure builds faster, I use more as needed. As a result on my 5 bank 7" press I have gotten as few as 20 gal filtered and sometimes as many as 55 gal and had the hollow plates full both times. If they are not full, you plugged pre-maturely and need to use more DE.

[markcasper]

So I am thouroughly disgusted with my new press. I actually hate filtering syrup and long for the days of just running it into milk cans and lining them up along the wall. Several time I have almost burnt the evaporator up because I was dealing with a filter press and last night was another example. I am wondering why there is no bypass valve? I was told since there is an air pump you don't need a bypass valve. The 10" is not working out as planned, I wish I would have kept my old one. I ha about 8 gallons left that wouldn't go into a drum, so though I'd bottle that, ran it into my cleaned water jacket tank and the stuff was murky as pond water. Never had issues like this with my 7".

Did I get sold a cheap bill of goods.....no bypass? Its a Lapierre press.

[madmapler]

Sean,
Yes, that is right. After adding the 56 cups of DE, the press hollow plates are over 95% packed. (probably should add another 3 cups to make it 59) After the 56 cups, the packed DE just keeps filtering until plugged. Last Monday, the previous set of papers and DE filtered a total of 118 gallons. I did not add any more DE after the 75 gal mark. The multiple layers of 3 cups of DE allow the filtering to continue. When I take the press apart to clean it, I can look at a chunk of packed DE and see dark strips in the layers of DE meaning that the DE is building up correctly. The center of the DE in the plates are always coated with a heavier layer of junk. With Wednesday's set of papers and DE at 20 PSI, I should be able to get another 20 - 25 gal through before changing.

I have seen sugar makers add an un- measured amount of DE 3 or 4 times to a draw off tank and that is good enough. Large batch dumping of DE (IMO) does not allow enough small layers of DE to build up to filter higher amounts of syrup. What is going to filter better? 4 thick layers of DE dumped in occasionally or 15 thin layers added systematically? Once the surface of each layer of DE is coated with junk, the filtering ability of that layer is diminished. So the more layers, the more filtering.
Joe I'm going to try it. It's about the only thing I haven't tried. I'll let you know for sure. Thanks.

[madmapler]

So I am thouroughly disgusted with my new press. I actually hate filtering syrup and long for the days of just running it into milk cans and lining them up along the wall. Several time I have almost burnt the evaporator up because I was dealing with a filter press and last night was another example. I am wondering why there is no bypass valve? I was told since there is an air pump you don't need a bypass valve. The 10" is not working out as planned, I wish I would have kept my old one. I ha about 8 gallons left that wouldn't go into a drum, so though I'd bottle that, ran it into my cleaned water jacket tank and the stuff was murky as pond water. Never had issues like this with my 7".

Did I get sold a cheap bill of goods.....no bypass? Its a Lapierre press. I thoroughly hear you(See my recent thread). You can add a bypass valve easy enough. Just put in a diverter type ball valve between the pump and the press. Mine is on the press inlet. Then run a hose back to the bucket or tank you are filtering. You can then crack the valve and send whatever amount you want back to be recirculated and maintain any pressure you desire. BTW. Mine's a CDL.

[markcasper]

Yah I had alot of choice emotions flying last night, just wanted to blow up my sugar shack! Lot of problems this year, sorry for venting.

[mellondome]

You dont need a bypass with an air diaphragm pump. Your pressure regulator will cotrol the pressure of the press.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

You dont need a bypass with an air diaphragm pump. Your pressure regulator will cotrol the pressure of the press.

Very true but if your compressor is outside because it is noisy as heck like ours or on the other side of the shack....not so convenient

[WMF]

If you double the papers you will not blow a paper and can run the press to 60 psi or beyond. The extra cost is negligable compared to tearing down a press full of syrup and using another set of papers anyways to filter that last 10 gallons.
Late season syrup needs constant small additions of DE in addition to a good precharge.

[wiam]

Very true but if your compressor is outside because it is noisy as heck like ours or on the other side of the shack....not so convenient

I have a ball valve on the airline at the pump. I can control pump speed right there and slower makes less pressure.

[markcasper]

There is a little valve right on the pump itself, not sure if they all are like this, but you can regulate the pressure right there.

[maple flats]

I plumbed a bypass into my set up because that is how I start each batch. I stir in the DE, then recirculate back into my mix tank. Once blended well (my air diaphragm pump will pump fast enough to visibly stir the contents of my 6 gal mix tank) then I open the valve to the filter press and close the valve enough to the bypass to push the syrup thru. I rarely have the bypass fully closed except on a fresh set of papers. When the syrup looks crystal clear (sparkly) I then open the bypass fully and close the filter valve. That is when I move the filtered syrup output to either my WJ canner or to a barrel. Then the filter valve is opened and the bypass is closed until I get to about 35-40 PSI on the pressure strokes of the pump. On fresh filters the bypass is usually fully closed, but if the pressure gauge rises over 40 PSI I gradually open the bypass.
I also have a supply valve and regulator on my air line where the line connects to the pump. The air supply is usually kept at about 50 psi and I operate the air valve for pump speed. My ARO pump does not have a valve built in.