Question for Dr Tim and others

[heus]

I may not get enough end of season sap to make permeate to do the end of year cleaning. In an old post Dr Tim mentioned using deionized water. I was wondering if this unit would be suitable: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CR-Spotless-De-ionized-High-Output-Wall-Mount-Portable-300-Gal-DI-Water-DIW-20/151000579326?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1% 26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D2a7aae3597344749b1 9461c39c0357e3%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D7%26rkt%3D8%2 6sd%3D182319158956

I realize I will get recommendations to get permeate or sap from another sugarmaker. I just want to know if this unit would work to treat my well water. Thanks

[DrTimPerkins]

Should work. Note it takes a long time to produce water this way.

[maple flats]

Why not just get some well or city water, if city water, let it set 2-3 days to evaporate the chlorine, then run it thru your RO until you have enough permeate to clean the RO. I generally have plenty for clean-up, I use a 1000 gal milk tank to hold my permeate for a 250. They suggest at least 2x the hourly rate for storage.
I do the same thing for season start up. I haul enough water to do my start up procedure, let it set for 2-3 days, then run it. Remember, for the RO you can save the permeate as you flush except send to drain the initial portion where you will get some that is not permeate to start.

[madmapler]

I ran in to this a few years ago and you can use tap water however, my well water has a super high mineral content and I was advised not to use it. Any water with chlorine in it is a membrane killer. I don't know how long it takes to get rid of it but I'd be darn sure it's gone before using it. I'm not saying not to use either, just don't be casual about it..

[buckeye gold]

Chlorine dissipates fast. If you have a way to recirculate it and aerate it the chlorine will be gone a lot quicker. Buy some test strips at a pool or aquarium supply if your worried about residual chlorine. We used to disinfect tanks with 200 ppm chlorine (way way more than tap water contains which is like 2-4ppm) then aerate them for 12 hours and put fish in, never had a problem.

[maple flats]

Letting my city water set for 2 days or longer when in a tank that does not trap the chlorine (vented) I get no chlorine residual.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

I also use city water for initial pre-season rinse after letting it sit open to air for a few days. I do NOT concentrate the city water, however.

[heus]

Thanks everyone for your input. Its well water that I would be treating, no chlorine. I definitely will not be getting the deionizer, seeing how the cartridge needs replaced or refilled every 300 gallons, and its over $100 each time. I am, however, still thinking about getting a 400-600 gallon per day semi-commercial ro to make pure water. They can be had on ebay for anywhere between $375 and $775.

[Russell Lampron]

Thanks everyone for your input. Its well water that I would be treating, no chlorine. I definitely will not be getting the deionizer, seeing how the cartridge needs replaced or refilled every 300 gallons, and its over $100 each time. I am, however, still thinking about getting a 400-600 gallon per day semi-commercial ro to make pure water. They can be had on ebay for anywhere between $375 and $775.

Now there's a solution to the problem that I hadn't even thought of. A household RO may be a little slow but you could make all of the permeate you wanted without hurting the membrane in your sap RO.

[SeanD]

This is the route I went...

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?29032-Water-to-Flush-RO

[heus]

This is the route I went...

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?29032-Water-to-Flush-RO

Sean very interesting. How has that worked out for you? Do you feel it is removing all of the iron?

[heus]

Dr Tim do you feel these remove enough iron to do the end of the year wash and rinse? Also storage with preservative? Maybe even run two filters in line instead of one? My well water has a pretty high iron content judging by the stains it leaves at the faucet.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Tim do you feel these remove enough iron to do the end of the year wash and rinse?

They should be OK as long as you don't exceed the flow rate, pressure, and capacity of the cartridge. Putting two in series would provide an additional safety cushion. We use a deionizing system to produce pure water for our research. It is much more high tech than these, but basically the same process.

[jbuck]

Hi All,

Question about the specific chlorine concentration level allowed in a membrane wash/rinse solution. I have a source of municipal water that I'd rather use than draining my personal well at home. I'm going to test it before use of course, but just wanted to understand what other folks' experience has been when using treated water in their RO.

Several folks have commented on how chlorine will dissipate off a vented tank of water and my question is, after testing this water for chlorine ppm before and after storing it for use, what is the target level of chlorine? Can one expect the chlorine to be completely gone after a period of time vented to the atmosphere? Most inexpensive test kits take readings down to 0.5 - 1.0ppm so I hope that within that tolerance band, the solution would be adequate to use for membrane rinsing. Does the time required to vent increase with water volume or depth of container?

Thanks

[DrTimPerkins]

As usual...it depends. Is the water treated with chlorine or chloramine? Chlorine is fairly volatile, and will dissipate to very low levels after several days. More evaporation surface area is good, depth is not. Aeration or spraying is good for volatilization. Chloramine is considerably more stable, and doesn't volatilize off very well, which is why it is often used. Boiling will remove both chlorine and chloramine...10 minutes of boiling is typically sufficient. You should check the specs of your membranes though to see how sensitive they are to chlorine...or ask you dealer.

[johnallin]

Hello Dr. Tim.

I purchased some charcoal(?) filters from the Bucket RO guys at LEME. They said these would remove Chlorine from our municipal water, making it suitable for cleaning the membrane on my RO.
Is this what you difference in the http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?29032-Water-to-Flush-RO post? If so; they are readily available and may solve some start-up issues many are having...including me.

Thanks John

[DrTimPerkins]

If done properly, it works just fine.

[jbuck]

I called CDL to get more information on membrane washing procedures and things to watch out for. I learned that when membranes are sent back to CDL St. Albans for off-season washing, they run municipal water through them. The gentleman I spoke with was not concerned about the exposure to free chlorine or chloramine because as a percentage of the annual cumulative flow through a membrane, whatever normal small amount of these compounds might exist in municipal water does not pose a measurable threat to the membrane. He indicated that it would not be feasible for CDL to pre-treat all of their wash/rise water for a few hundred membranes each year. He went on to say that their process includes:

1. Rinse + caustic wash
2. Rinse + acidic wash and soak minimum 24 hours (with oxi-san or equivalent)
3. Rinse + caustic wash + rinse

Additionally, he said that the oscillating washing cycles of alkaline/acidic/alkaline is "good exercise" for the membrane because it helps keep the material elastic and operation performance at its best.

This information gave me a lot more confidence in my options for providing wash/rinse water at my sugarhouse.

[DrTimPerkins]

... was not concerned about the exposure to free chlorine or chloramine because as a percentage of the annual cumulative flow through a membrane, whatever normal small amount of these compounds might exist in municipal water does not pose a measurable threat to the membrane....

That's a bit surprising. Municipal water can contain up to 4ppm chlorine. Tolerance specs for RO membranes are often < 0.1 ppm for short-term exposure.

[bill m]

I have municipal water at my sugar house and use it for the first wash of the season. I check the chlorine level first and it is never above .1ppm . When I fill my tank I turn the water on slow with a fine mist nozzle to help dissipate any chlorine.