New to pumps, need recommendation

[mol1jb]

Hi all,

I am expanding next year to a small production level. I am looking to get a range of 150-300 taps from the sugar bush to the main head tank and evaporator. The bush will all be on 3/16 gravity and distance from bush to head tank will be around 1000' almost flat. The building that holds the main tank and evaporator have power. The main collection point of the bush could also have power with out too much trouble. I could do this with a truck and tank but a pump and main line and pump seems more seamless.

I have no experience with pumps and accessories. What are the basics and what kind of equipment will I need?

See attached map

Thanks,
Jacob

[motowbrowne]

Hi all,

I am expanding next year to a small production level. I am looking to get a range of 150-300 taps from the sugar bush to the main head tank and evaporator. The bush will all be on 3/16 gravity and distance from bush to head tank will be around 1000' almost flat. The building that holds the main tank and evaporator have power. The main collection point of the bush could also have power with out too much trouble. I could do this with a truck and tank but a pump and main line and pump seems more seamless.

I have no experience with pumps and accessories. What are the basics and what kind of equipment will I need?

See attached map

Thanks,
Jacob

Well, as with anything else, there's lots of ways to skin a cat. A couple of issues to consider with your setup are, you aren't taking about pumping a lot of sap at a time if you're only talking about 150 taps (300 would be better), and if you're on flatish ground, it's gonna be tough to drain that transfer line.

Any chance you can string the line up off the ground and make it so it drains? The high point doesn't need to be in any particular place, you just need to have one high point and consistent slope down from there. The other thing is that a pump line that long will hold a lot of sap. I'm sure there's an online calculator that can tell us exactly how much for a given size of tubing, but I'm guessing 1" would hold something like 50 gallons of sap. A large line like that will let you use a larger pump and pump faster, but will also have more sap that requires draining.

I think the best solution, since you mention electricity can be run to your tank, would be a sump pump and a smaller line. Ideally you would be able to switch it on and walk away. Maybe have some sort of float switch or timer to turn it off. Then you just need to be able to easily disconnect your line to drain it for freezing temps.

Good luck to you on putting your puzzle together. Pumping can be a real hassle, but it's better than driving in the woods this time year. One thing I've learned is that having one person at the pump and one person at the other end with walkie talkies helps minimize the amount of sap that you will accidentally pump onto the ground. I managed to pump about 250 gallons onto the ground last year, and I'm hoping to avoid that this year. Accidents happen, though, and parts fail. Especially plastic parts. Especially this time of year...

[maple flats]

It comes to mind with 300 or fewer taps and flat ground you might be best off taking advantage of how sap moves in 3/16 tubing. Consider running 10 lines in 3/16 on to a manifold in the sugarhouse. Since 3/16 keeps the sap filling the lines either in a solid column or sap/air/sap/air and so forth. Then connect a diaphragm pump to the manifold. It should pull all of the sap and empty the lines if you can go to the tank for are pulling the sap from and unhook it when pumped so only air can then get in. Then pump the lines dry. Next time you need to transfer from the tank to the sugarhouse, re-connect that tank end and repeat. You may want to have little valves on each line at the sugarhouse to be certain to empty all, one at a time as you finish pumping.

[Cedar Eater]

It comes to mind with 300 or fewer taps and flat ground you might be best off taking advantage of how sap moves in 3/16 tubing. Consider running 10 lines in 3/16 on to a manifold in the sugarhouse. Since 3/16 keeps the sap filling the lines either in a solid column or sap/air/sap/air and so forth. Then connect a diaphragm pump to the manifold. It should pull all of the sap and empty the lines if you can go to the tank for are pulling the sap from and unhook it when pumped so only air can then get in. Then pump the lines dry. Next time you need to transfer from the tank to the sugarhouse, re-connect that tank end and repeat. You may want to have little valves on each line at the sugarhouse to be certain to empty all, one at a time as you finish pumping.

That actually sounds like it might help me to pump sap across a cold swamp. Eight 3/16" lines would exceed the capacity of a 1/2" line. Thirty would be needed to exceed the capacity of a 1" line. Hmmmm.

[mol1jb]

I should note that from the top of the hills to the point where all the 3/16 converge is around 150ft elevation change over 1000ft. After the point of the 3/16 line converge to the sugar house there is no elevation change.

Maple flats, If I were to run 3/16 the whole way as you suggested could I use the high elevation change at the start of the 3/16 runs to push the sap the rest of the way to the sugar house over the flat run? Or would I still need an assist pump of some sort on a manifold?

[maple flats]

You could use gravity to move the sap the whole distance, without any pump but you would not be able to evacuate the lines without having a pump and a place for air to get in. But, if you run the whole distance in 3/16, it will not be filling a tank that is 1000' away, anytime there is flow it would flow into the tank at the sugarhouse. Then if you wanted to boost the production, plumb all those lines into one manifold and connect a diaphragm pump at the sugarhouse with a screen or other method to keep ice out of the pump and you would have a hybrid system, the natural gravity generated vacuum supplemented with the pump assist.
Likely the cost of that much 3/16 will be a lot, but likely not as much as a TF line with pump, a tank at the 100' away location and the hassle of emptying that line with each freeze up.
I used to have a 1.5" pump line that ran thru a cold, evergreen shaded ravine that froze hard if we got 2 or more days of freeze up, then it took 3-5 days before I could get sap pumped out of that tank.

[CampHamp]

I've got about the same setup, with collection (150G) that needs pumping to head tank (150G). I used a Shurflo pump (4048) to pump about 250' with about 25' head. I looked at sump pumps, but couldn't find a sump-pump that was food-safe unless I used a well pump and was concerned about it freezing in the tank. A HUGE side benefit was that I learned that small-timers can get 25" of vac on their lines with these pumps and it served double duty until I got a dedicated lifter (a 4008).

As mentioned, after pumping you want to clear the line (so it doesn't hurt your pump and so that you're ready to pump soon after the thaw). Mine drains back to the collection tank by gravity through a trickle by-pass line (slow draining - but works without need for a solenoid valve).

I spent much time visiting tanks to check levels and running the pump at all hours with night flows, so I put some effort into automating the operation this year. I wired a micro-controller to "ping" sensors at each tank to check tank levels and also to a thermometer. Then I coded the thing to read the levels and temp and to start the pump when they were full (and above freezing). It got fancier. I ran WiFi within shack-distance so I could access the controller over the Internet. I know, a bit nerdy for mapling folk, but it saves me so much zipping around.

Here's a picture of the app. The components were super cheap (less than $10) and extra$ for a long wire run to the bottom sensor -- if you or someone you know can code, it's worth doing!

16087

Also, Tim Wilmot said merging 3/16 lines causes problems in his research paper. I'd go single lines or merge to 5/16.

[mol1jb]

When using a pump like shurflo does it need to be a the collection tank or head tank or does it matter?

[CampHamp]

Near the bottom tank. They "dry-prime" up to 6 feet (they cannot be more than 6' above the sap line - but that can be far away on flat ground).

[Cedar Eater]

I would think you would lose more vacuum with more pressure on the discharge side, so using the pump to both suck hard and push far or high would work, but at reduce flow rates.

[Biz]

I'm using the same Shurflo 4008 pump on my vacuum setup to act as a transfer pump. I have valves to redirect the pump intake and discharge lines. It pumps about 600' with a rise of maybe 20' through 1/2" pipe. It is very slow, only about 1 gpm, but the nice thing is I don't need a separate pump to do it. Just turn on and let it pump, then turn it off later, won't hurt it if it runs dry. I can also "assist" it by connecting up my AC powered Shurflo at the top of the hill by the storage tank to the same line in a push-pull arrangement to pump faster. It all works SO much better than carrying with buckets and sap yoke like I have always done. And continues to draw vacuum on the sap line while pumping, although reduced to about 10". I get about 5 gallons of sap that runs back down the hill when draining the line.

Dave

[mol1jb]

Getting a little more into this, I could run a main line from the tap line convergence point powered by gravity to a holding tank about 100 ft from the head tank/sugar house. From there to the head tank I would need to pump up about 15ft rise over 100ft. I feel that the less distance that would needed to be pumped the better.

When running 3/16 tap line to main line powered by gravity, what is a good choice?

16097

[CampHamp]

You need these tools:

Head-ft * 0.433 = PSI -- so pumping 15' up puts 6.5 PSI on your pump.

Actual tube friction (in PSI) by varying length, GPM and diameter (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hazen-williams-water-d_797.html) -- add that to your 6.5.

Then you look at the pump's data sheet and see how many GPM's it can do at that PSI. You had to estimate GPM in step above, so if you were way off, then redo the Tube Friction step with new GPM value.

Hope that helps.

I figure you would get 3.3 GPM with the 4048 (100' tube, up 15' with 3/4" tube) and 1.9 GPM with the 4008.