Cost of production

[acafro]

I am curious if anyone has determined how much it costs them to produce a gallon of syrup and if so the style of formula you used. previously I have just ball parked my cost of production but would like to be a bit more accurate with my numbers. I have looked through the business side of thing through the 2014 posts with no help and really don't feel like re-inventing the wheel.

Thanks!
Adam

[Michael Greer]

That's a lot of folks don't really want to think about. It cost about $30,000 to make my first gallon several years back, and they get cheaper every season. Then there's the whole labor question. It took me 15 hours one day last week to make 10 gallons, but my tax form doesn't show any "cost of labor" because I don't have any employees. Lots of labor though.

[Maple Man 85]

As Dr. Evil said... ONE BILLION DOLLARS hahahaha:mrgreen: Unless a producer is leveraging equipment such as an RO, tubing and proper sized equipment so you're not boiling 16 hour a days and collecting another 4 the cost of labor and time spent for a small producer 500 taps or less isn't justifiable from a business perspective. From a profit margin perspective when you consider that profit margins simply are not high enough. Hobby producers make syrup for the sheer joy of making syrup. We see cash in pocket from syrup sales but if we actually paid ourselves we'd make probably $5 an hour or less.

[Wanabe1972]

Sad part is I would give up my 30 dollar an hour job to make 5 dollars an hour to make syrup. The problem is its hard to live on 6 weeks pay a year. I have bought all new this year so so far it has cost me 350.00 to
make a gallon not counting labor. Wait a minute, why am I doing this?

[acafro]

Ha, I get it. I was more so refering to time / wood / electricity.

Other items such as bottles, glass would be cost of goods. Tubing, taps, pumps tanks, and equipment would all be capital items, not necessarily cost of production.

Didn't know if anyone has done it that way

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[Michael Greer]

On the other hand, I'm on track to make about $7,000 worth of syrup this year. I'm an old retired fart, and just entertaining myself with this hobby. I don't think I'd see that kind of cash flow from an electric train set.

[DrTimPerkins]

It depends upon many factors, size is one of the largest drivers of cost. A lot of information at:

https://blog.uvm.edu/farmvia/?page_id=394

[johnpma]

I think if you are looking at profit margin then you need to consider all factors from cutting wood to labeling your bottles and all in between! My guess is less than $4.00/hr Think of the amount you Need to invest before you even make a cent!!! I don't know anyone that is doing this or any form of farming to become rich!!

My guess is you'd have better luck with a scratch ticket if you are looking at a extremely high level of income!!

That said my wife is selling our 8.5 oz bottles at an average of two per day......and everyone has come back with a smile on their face and compliments on how tasty the syrup is! I have said it before here, my great grandfather was a large dairy farmer he wasn't rich but survived 93 years farming......

[acafro]

It depends upon many factors, size is one of the largest drivers of cost. A lot of information at:

https://blog.uvm.edu/farmvia/?page_id=394
Thanks Dr. Perkins



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[acafro]

I think the majority of people are missing my point. And / or don't understand the question.

There are many different divisions of costs from an accounting stand point. Take a look at a ballance sheet, cost of production is just one of the many. All of the parts come together to make a return on profit schedule (or break even point). There are many moving parts.

If I was to sit down and figure how much I've spent then yes, It's somewhere I'm in the area of $1000 to make a gallon. I'm not looking to make a million selling syrup. No way no how, but I also don't want to be throwing out $45 dollars in every gallon I sell.

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[BAP]

I think part of the problem is you are looking for a magic formula that is going to give the answer you want, but it doesn't exist in Maple. The reason is, Maple like most farming, has too many different variables that are different for each person. The other thing is, for most people it is a small part of another business, or a second job or a hobby. Each individual is going to different input costs and labor. The best thing you can do is to figure out your own costs and expenses, then create your own financial statements that give you the information you want.

[johnpma]

I think part of the problem is you are looking for a magic formula that is going to give the answer you want, but it doesn't exist in Maple. The reason is, Maple like most farming, has too many different variables that are different for each person. The other thing is, for most people it is a small part of another business, or a second job or a hobby. Each individual is going to different input costs and labor. The best thing you can do is to figure out your own costs and expenses, then create your own financial statements that give you the information you want. this is all very true! I saw my great grand father's dairy farm in the 70s go from profit to extreme loss especially when the government decided to implement taxes! Let's all be thankful at all lev els that the maple industry is not going thru what dairy farmers did in the 70s

[johnpma]

I think the majority of people are missing my point. And / or don't understand the question.

There are many different divisions of costs from an accounting stand point. Take a look at a ballance sheet, cost of production is just one of the many. All of the parts come together to make a return on profit schedule (or break even point). There are many moving parts.

If I was to sit down and figure how much I've spent then yes, It's somewhere I'm in the area of $1000 to make a gallon. I'm not looking to make a million selling syrup. No way no how, but I also don't want to be throwing out $45 dollars in every gallon I sell.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk at the small scale level you could be minutes away from throwing a gallon of syrup in the rubbish it hurts the small hobby producers more than the gallon producers.........I think in many ways profitability and break even comes with the time you put in to refining your own process

[acafro]

I think part of the problem is you are looking for a magic formula that is going to give the answer you want, but it doesn't exist in Maple. The reason is, Maple like most farming, has too many different variables that are different for each person. The other thing is, for most people it is a small part of another business, or a second job or a hobby. Each individual is going to different input costs and labor. The best thing you can do is to figure out your own costs and expenses, then create your own financial statements that give you the information you want.
What I'm looking for is what others have done. But it is becoming apparent that this doesn't seem to be something many people take into consideration.

What do others take into consideration? Maybe some of those work for me, maybe some don't.

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[wmick]

It cost about $30,000 to make my first gallon

"Quote of the Week Prize" goes to Michael..

(dealing with my Wife's misunderstanding right now, as a newby) She'll come around. Its not my first "project" / "investment"... :lol:

[johnpma]

What I'm looking for is what others have done. But it is becoming apparent that this doesn't seem to be something many people take into consideration.

What do others take into consideration? Maybe some of those work for me, maybe some don't.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk my neighbor has a veggie stand in front of his small farm. It's an honor system. He was robbed three times this past summer once being his cash box. He did not expect this! He worked all summer for free because all of his profit was wiped out by thieves........variables How thing played out! But he is doing the stand again this year!!

Let's reverse all this......how much do you want to make a gallon???

[acafro]

my neighbor has a veggie stand in front of his small farm. It's an honor system. He was robbed three times this past summer once being his cash box. He did not expect this! He worked all summer for free because all of his profit was wiped out by thieves........variables How thing played out! But he is doing the stand again this year!!

Let's reverse all this......how much do you want to make a gallon???
The end game is that I sell plastic for an average of $65 / gallon. And I'd like to be making some form of profit on what I sell.

Now obviously, I'm nowhere near being profitable. I've invested a lot of capital this season and even more over the past 3 seasons.

The whole reason for the post is because including all of my investments over the past 3 years and trying to see how much I'm making (or not) is foolish because I'm obviously not turning a profit. Maybe it's just my way of thinking.

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[SDdave]

I am curious if anyone has determined how much it costs them to produce a gallon of syrup and if so the style of formula you used. previously I have just ball parked my cost of production but would like to be a bit more accurate with my numbers. I have looked through the business side of thing through the 2014 posts with no help and really don't feel like re-inventing the wheel.

Thanks!
Adam

I only really see one formula to figure out cost/gal. Grab a pen and paper and start walking thru the start to finish of the season. Write down everything that you have used, and take note of anything that can be used for multiple years. Whatever is a one time use is an immediate cost, 1 to 5 years intermediate cost, 5 to 10+ years a long term cost. You'll have to use the cost per expected lifetime for anything above immediate usage (ex. evaporator cost $1000 with a life span of 5 years=$200/year). Now add up all the costs and divide by output. Start a spreadsheet and keep track from year to year.

I choose not to do this as it would be far less expensive for me to have you ship syrup to me. But I would lose out on all the fun.

SDdave

[johnpma]

I only really see one formula to figure out cost/gal. Grab a pen and paper and start walking thru the start to finish of the season. Write down everything that you have used, and take note of anything that can be used for multiple years. Whatever is a one time use is an immediate cost, 1 to 5 years intermediate cost, 5 to 10+ years a long term cost. You'll have to use the cost per expected lifetime for anything above immediate usage (ex. evaporator cost $1000 with a life span of 5 years=$200/year). Now add up all the costs and divide by output. Start a spreadsheet and keep track from year to year.

I choose not to do this as it would be far less expensive for me to have you ship syrup to me. But I would lose out on all the fun.

SDdave the price for family and fun would over 10k/gallon There is no price for sitting with my 72 year old dad boiling sap

[Robert K]

There is no price for sitting with my 72 year old dad boiling sap

That quote is priceless in my books

If I kept any ( books that is) then the wife might have some kind of idea how much I spend on this hobby. ��

[GeneralStark]

The end game is that I sell plastic for an average of $65 / gallon. And I'd like to be making some form of profit on what I sell.

Now obviously, I'm nowhere near being profitable. I've invested a lot of capital this season and even more over the past 3 seasons.

The whole reason for the post is because including all of my investments over the past 3 years and trying to see how much I'm making (or not) is foolish because I'm obviously not turning a profit. Maybe it's just my way of thinking.

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The reality is that if your signature is correct.......you are not going to make a profit unless you take the syrup you make and do some serious value adding. Been there and done that. Time to scale up if you want to get serious or do it differently.

With 130 taps you could be making 65 gallons a season and grossing over $100/gal. Why aren't you?

[Ivyacres]

In my eyes I'm still a newbie with this my 4th season. Every year I read more and experiment a little to see what works for me. This year I have 230 taps, small by most standards, but addicted by all standards. As I read the posts from those that have gotten larger I sense a point where this becomes more of a business and less mom and pop. I don't know what that number is but for me I think it seems around 1000 or two. I may be all wrong, but the money that needs to be invested and time tapping, land and so on seem to take it past just fun. I'm thinking about buying and going big (10 - 20 thousand taps) for something to do in retirement. I just want enough to keep me in the woods and out of my better halfs hair. Selling enough to keep going and not rob the retirement. Thank You to all of you that share your experience and wisdom I appreciate it!

[Michael Greer]

One of the best things about maple syrup is that you can start up at any level. My first year we borrowed 40 buckets and hauled to a friend's evaporator. The syrup we took home that year was enough to keep the family happy, AND enough to buy the gear to expand to 70 buckets the following year. For our first five years, we followed that pattern...spend whatever profit to expand the next year. I've never had any money to play with, and find it very entertaining that this business grows itself...as long as I'm willing to be the laborer.
In year six we decided to start a business. We bought an evaporator, built a sugarhouse, and got cosy with the tax forms. This year, at 450 buckets, I'm outgrowing some of my equipment, and there will be some labor saving improvements before next season. The coolest part is...it looks like I'll be able to afford to do them. I still don't have any money to play with, but I have converted my labor and some sunshine into a very nice building and machinery (not to mention all that lovely syrup). I could have probably made more working at WalMart, but I'd have died of boredom by now.

[Michael Greer]

General Stark, "With 130 taps you could be making 65 gallons a season and grossing over $100/gal. Why aren't you?"
You lost me in the translation...What did you mean to say?
My reading shows a range of 1/4 to 1/3 gallon of syrup per tap, and my region will tolerate $50 to $75 per gallon.

[spud]

I think some of the numbers being thrown out are a bit of a stretch. To think your going to get a .5GPT every season is silly. Making $100 a gallon can be done on a small scale but there is only so much you could sell at that price.

Spud

[Super Sapper]

On vacuum you can get up .5 gal/tap for 65 gallons on 130 taps. Making value added products and selling them gets a return of over $100/gallon.

[Diesel Pro]

All you can do is start tracking hours, and expenses. Break the expenses into consumables and equipment. Equipment does not cost face value, only the depreciation or maintenance. At the end of the season do the math. I'm sure that youwill find that it varies year to year, but at some point you should get an idea.

Wish I could get $65 a gallon. I see $20 per 1/2 gallon and I think the Amish are even less. Pretty dark stuff, but...

[TheMapleMoose]

I downloaded a spreadsheet from Ohio State university(?) that I modified a little to fit our needs. It's not perfect but gives us a general idea on our cost of production.

https://aede.osu.edu/research/osu-farm-management/enterprise-budgets/archived-budgets-2009-2001

Under their 2010 budgets they have an xls version of the spreadsheet, that's what I used as a base to start with. If you want a copy of mine, pm me your email and I'll forward it to you

[SPILEDRIVER]

did you read my journal? that sure sounds like me...probably most of the serious ones on here as well lol
One of the best things about maple syrup is that you can start up at any level. My first year we borrowed 40 buckets and hauled to a friend's evaporator. The syrup we took home that year was enough to keep the family happy, AND enough to buy the gear to expand to 70 buckets the following year. For our first five years, we followed that pattern...spend whatever profit to expand the next year. I've never had any money to play with, and find it very entertaining that this business grows itself...as long as I'm willing to be the laborer.
In year six we decided to start a business. We bought an evaporator, built a sugarhouse, and got cosy with the tax forms. This year, at 450 buckets, I'm outgrowing some of my equipment, and there will be some labor saving improvements before next season. The coolest part is...it looks like I'll be able to afford to do them. I still don't have any money to play with, but I have converted my labor and some sunshine into a very nice building and machinery (not to mention all that lovely syrup). I could have probably made more working at WalMart, but I'd have died of boredom by now.

[bowtie]

I am going to honest with any newbie, if you are doing to make lots of money you had better start with lots. Unless you have the land already, most any small scale operation will not " make" money.with evaporator, new 2x6, $5500-$6000,tanks, tapping supplies, cost to operate equipment, disposable yearly items, and other supplies, you will likely have 10k, now say you sell for$60 gallon, you will need to sell 135 or so gallons to break even, in some area maybe that's achievable for a beginner, but if you are like most and live in area saturated by producers, good luck. Then let's talk upgrades, like ro's,bigger evap, vac systems, bigger sugar house, candy machines etc, etc. look, I am small and sell maybe 15 gallons year to friends and family,and I have an easy $12-14k in it, easy. To me unless you can strike the retail sales rich, the only way make me eye is to start fairly large and expand quickly and sell bulk. I would love to sell 50-75 gallons a year retail, but where I live there are lot of producers that give their syrup away to people they know and then the Amish who gets tons of sales from "city" people because they love the novelty of buying from them. Not to mention a couple of pancakes houses and restaurants that sell tons of syrup. It is a tough row to hoe. It can be done, don't get me wrong but we should have started 20 years. I am expanding next year and hope to be at a few thousand taps in the next five years but under no pre-tense do I think I am going to make "lots of money" .maple syrup producing is one the fasted growing hobbies in the northeast, the New York conservationist magazine stated in the last 10 years New York states production has gone up 2 1/2 times. If you can start with 75-100k capital you have shot. If you want to make a few hundred to few thousand a year doing something you enjoy then you have the right hobby, if you want to do this as your main line of employment you should probably pick a different pastime. Not being a downer just putting it out there honestly.

[johnpma]

I've said it before here.....you cannot expect to make syrup and pay off your investment in one season. The cost of capital should be amortized over a period of time. If you loan the money to yourself and start to pay yourself back over a period of time then you can expense the capital equipment out over say 5-7 seasons. This will make the profit look better than spending 5K to make $850 your first year

[maple75]

Just a hobbyist here, I am making a point of trying to be as resourceful as possible to keep the cost down. For example I use nothing but bakery pails which are free. My total investment since I started two year ago has been about $640 and made 46 liters (12+ USG) of syrup so far. Hopefully this cold weather breaks and the season gets started soon so I can make more!

My "operating costs" are negligible in my mind. My wood is free, I burn all the stuff I am cleaning out of my bush. I bottle using mason jars which get reused. New lids are cheap. My time doesn't count since I would otherwise be wasting it....

Even though I give all the syrup we don't use away it's still one the cheapest hobbies I have! It's whatever you want it to be.

[JoeJ]

For my cost of production I include the taxes, insurance, electricity, fuel oil, tractor fuel and repair, filters, soaps, RO cleaning, syrup jugs, misc parts used in sugar house, annual pipeline repair parts, spouts, 1/5 cost of drop line replacement, 1/10 cost of tubing replacement. (I do not, even though I should, include the amortization of equipment because that would be just too depressing)

2014 1067 gal syrup $11.77 per gal
2015 1007 gal syrup $12.46 per gal
2016 1470 gal syrup $10.24 per gal

It is an expensive hobby and one that does not easily lend itself to expansion from a small operation to a large one without a lot of capital.

[johnpma]

For my cost of production I include the taxes, insurance, electricity, fuel oil, tractor fuel and repair, filters, soaps, RO cleaning, syrup jugs, misc parts used in sugar house, annual pipeline repair parts, spouts, 1/5 cost of drop line replacement, 1/10 cost of tubing replacement. (I do not, even though I should, include the amortization of equipment because that would be just too depressing)

2014 1067 gal syrup $11.77 per gal
2015 1007 gal syrup $12.46 per gal
2016 1470 gal syrup $10.24 per gal

It is an expensive hobby and one that does not easily lend itself to expansion from a small operation to a large one without a lot of capital. Joe what about cost of labor?

[spud]

I agree with a lot of what bowtie is saying. I also always enjoy JoeJ comments. Like I said in a past post it is possible to make $100 a gallon and I know people do it. It is highly unlikely a person is going to make that kind of money if He/She makes a a lot of syrup though. Marketing is everything and it is costly and hard to do on a large scale. The people on Trader making $100 a gallon would be far better off just tapping 500 trees in their backyard and then buying bulk syrup to fill their orders. The money needed to set up a large operation can scare you. Large producers are competing to buy sap from small guy's like me. They want me to spend my money buying, Maintaining my sap operation so they don't have the headache. The larger the operation the less GPT will be made in most cases. Relying on others to keep a 50-100,000 tap operation going can be a real pain in the butt. The buyers know that the sap sellers are going to be on top of everything to get the most sap out of the trees. The big operations on the other hand have to rely on helpers (who don't always care) if your vacuum is 10 or 27 inches. They get paid by the hour so whats it to them. There in the woods beating the owners 4-wheelers and talking on their cell phone to their girlfriends. If your looking to make a living from sugaring keep your tap count to a manageable size and then look to buy sap from all around you. Paying 65% for sap will be a far better deal for you then owning and maintaining more taps then you can really handle.

Spud

[AdirondackSap]

Spud get some Amish hard workers and no cell phones

[sappytapper]

Ha, I get it. I was more so refering to time / wood / electricity.

Other items such as bottles, glass would be cost of goods. Tubing, taps, pumps tanks, and equipment would all be capital items, not necessarily cost of production.

Didn't know if anyone has done it that way

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I'm a data nerd so all of my hobbies have a spreadsheet associated with them where i track time, startup materials, purchases, etc...

A hobby within my hobby of collecting hobbies, is attempting to see if there are ways to make them cash-neutral (minus my labor time) over some extended period of time. So, that's how i justify keeing this ultimately depressing data :-)

Thus far this season I've burned about 1/6 cord of wood or so, and emptied 3 propane tanks to make a gallon and a half of syrup (pretty horrid efficiency, next year with an improved arch it'll help...). Not including buckets/tubing/arch supplies and other costs that spread over multiple seasons (and the cord wood i had to over pay for due to being WAY late on buying it) I'm looking at about 120 or so bucks for the gallon and a half of syrup I've produced so far. If I add in the startup expenses and time? well... let's just say there are more financially sound ways to spend my time. :-)

[Run Forest Run!]

A hobby within my hobby of collecting hobbies

Always what I get teased about. That's on my profile. hahahaha Welcome to the group.

[sappytapper]

Always what I get teased about. That's on my profile. hahahaha Welcome to the group.

Thanks!

Second year here and I can't thank everyone here enough for all the information I've been able to glean in the last year and change. :-)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Lol, some of the Amish carrying them now.


Spud get some Amish hard workers and no cell phones

[JoeJ]

Joe what about cost of labor?

johnpma,

I know that if you plan on running your sugaring operation as a "real" business, you should be charging your labor to the business. I probably spend at least 1,500 hours ( realistically more) a year working in the woods, repairing tubing, hauling sap during the season, boiling and everything else that goes along with sugaring. I do everything myself except boiling. My brother in law helps me boil. Charging out my labor, even if it was only on paper, would only extend the time to the break even point. Like others have said, if it was about making money, I would be better off working at Walmart.

[barnbc76]

I understand what acafro is saying, I like knowing the accounting of something even if I don't plan on making it a business.I guess I should consider myself lucky that I have such a low investment. Last year I believe my investment was about $100 to make just over 4gal. This year I believe I am at about $400 for just over 6gal so far. I have been selling average of $125/gal but I dont know how much I will be able to sell at that price (it is for a fundraiser so I think people are willing to pay more) A guy at work has a brother in law who has been selling syrup for years now. I could have charged less than him to get more sales but I recognize the difficulty and hard work that is put into it, instead I chose to sell syrup in a more fancy maple leaf glass bottle and instead of stealing his customers it got more people who didnt normally buy syrup because it is such a decorative and attractive bottle. Now these customers will want to keep their bottles full so they will buy more later to refil it, maybe from him or maybe from me, either way i belive it is a win. Of course so far this year i have not seen any advertisement on the bulliten board saying he is selling any, i honestly dont want a monoply because I could not fill the quantity that he does.

It does seem like others here I have a difficult time not investing more each year to try and produce more in the end whatever time ive gained just goes back into making more syrup. I already have more ideas for next year, but i do try and budget for things to keep things reasonable.
Some very good comments here, spud you are right on with that assessment and that applies to other things as well in other types of businesses. Contracting/subcontracting which my father does is one of them. I realize it is difficult for some myself included to undervalue our "work" by not charging enough but the more people who do it the more harm it does to the particular work field and ourselves especially. People at work ask me all kinds of questions which they could not of the other guy who sell syrup, after i tell them how much work is involved most people think it is a fair price, even if they dont want any because they dont use it or whatever.

[Sue @ Battel's Sugar Bush]

My husband is a MSU Extension Educator here in Michigan and adapted a cost of production Excel spreadsheet to make it maple syrup specific. He did this several years ago for a Michigan Maple Syrup Association seminar. You plug in your figures to calculate your cost to produce a gallon. If I remember right, he adapted some info from Michael Farrell, with permission. Email Bob directly at BattelRo@msu.edu and ask for the maple syrup cost of production document.


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[blissville maples]

First thing is you ha e to stop buying Al this new stuff.....Any stainless will do, lol....Last year I invest 6k invaccum, everything else been used for years, made 16k insyrup, no labor paid father boils 3-4 hrs a day and I have roughly 6 weeks invested. 2400 taps, this year on track to make 18k syrup nothing new all equipment is paid for year by year going g forward...... if I could make 3-4k a mk that all year I'd be set....... Really depends on how you can "make it happen". Sugaring is not like watching football, and I think some see it as an easy buck, those of us used to hard work make money!!!!!

[blissville maples]

And that's 22 a gal down from 26....

[BSD]

One thing was was only mentioned once or twice in this whole conversation is factoring in your own time. Everyone is busy, i know i don't have any extra time to spare. Do not forget to account for your time to put into the business. it's no different than forgetting to account for paying for help.

Sugaring is a hobby bug that is really getting close to becoming a business for me. I'll know more in a few weeks if i'm going bigger rapidly or just a moderate growth next year depending on how well i sell my existing product. I'm in a unique market where there is not a saturation of producers, and there are plenty of people who are on the 'buy it local' kick and will spend a premium to buy local food and crafts. If i sell all my product at the price i want, i'll be OK. if it sits around and doesn't sell I'll re-evaluate.

if it goes well, the first part of my expansion next year is an expandable RO system. Time is my biggest issue between kids, business and working odd-jobs. so if i can cut my boils in half or down by 2/3 just by running a pump overnight... i'm all for it and will be paid back in spades in time savings. any time in any business you can replace human man hours with machinery, equipment or automation, it is worth investing in, in my opinion. The second big investment would be in a sugarhouse to work out of. I would figure a 10 year cost breakdown on that. My evaporator will get me by for another 3-5 years with some mild tweaking and fine-tuning over the summer. I figure 5 years life-span with most sugar equipment, either you'll wear it out (tubing) or need to replace it do to expanding.

just my 2 cents.

[Sugarmaker]

Just rambling!
Funny I was up half the night working numbers in my head about the actual profit on some value added product i made yesterday.
I dont have the mfg cost answer. (I used to do detailed mfg cost estimates down to seconds of production time) I have blocked that out of my mind.
I think making syrup is a lot like farming. if you want to make a small fortune, start with a big one!
I think keeping the entire system balanced, to allow you to have some fun and break even (forget your labor) is about as good as your going to get. If your really big it can become work again. Most of the small farmers are gone. But even these small farms (50 cows) had huge investments compared to hobby maple producers. Sure beats going to a desk job!
Regards,
Chris

[DrTimPerkins]

One thing was was only mentioned once or twice in this whole conversation is factoring in your own time. Everyone is busy, i know i don't have any extra time to spare. Do not forget to account for your time to put into the business. it's no different than forgetting to account for paying for help.

I agree. If you weren't doing this, there is the opportunity to be doing something else you might be paid for, so including your time SHOULD always be accounted for.

During a presentation about tubing cleaning a few years ago I made the same statement and got a rather negative response back from someone who said that since he didn't pay himself, he shouldn't have to include time into the matter. He was quite adamant that his time wasn't worth anything even after I explained my reasoning, so eventually I said we would have to agree to disagree, but that he could easily discount his time in the equation if he really wanted to.

A few minutes later I said something else, and he chimed in...."I can't do that, it would take too much time." :D

[BSD]

I agree. If you weren't doing this, there is the opportunity to be doing something else you might be paid for, so including your time SHOULD always be accounted for.

During a presentation about tubing cleaning a few years ago I made the same statement and got a rather negative response back from someone who said that since he didn't pay himself, he shouldn't have to include time into the matter. He was quite adamant that his time wasn't worth anything even after I explained my reasoning, so eventually I said we would have to agree to disagree, but that he could easily discount his time in the equation if he really wanted to.

A few minutes later I said something else, and he chimed in...."I can't do that, it would take too much time." :Dpriceless. There is one of those guys in every business.

[johnpma]

Just rambling!
Funny I was up half the night working numbers in my head about the actual profit on some value added product i made yesterday.
I dont have the mfg cost answer. (I used to do detailed mfg cost estimates down to seconds of production time) I have blocked that out of my mind.
I think making syrup is a lot like farming. if you want to make a small fortune, start with a big one!
I think keeping the entire system balanced, to allow you to have some fun and break even (forget your labor) is about as good as your going to get. If your really big it can become work again. Most of the small farmers are gone. But even these small farms (50 cows) had huge investments compared to hobby maple producers. Sure beats going to a desk job!
Regards,
Chris And the best part is the industry is not being influenced by China yet :lol:

[blissville maples]

1500 hrs in the woods what?????? Oh my God. No wonder folks losing money....Did u mean 150 hrs...1500 hrs is 25 weeks of 60 he weeks...Must have alot of squirrels or doing something wrong.....As I said those used to hard work make money sugaring, it cost me about 1000 dollars in electrical, supplies, another 10 weeks in la or if I were to count it( I don't too.muxh because unlike most here in Vermont we have the farmer like work ethic...If we weren't sugaring we'd be doing something else that didn't make money, like picking sticks up off the yard raking gravel from snowplow, cutting wood...None of which are paid for). I've been self employed since I was 22 now I'm 35 I built a 2300 foot house 3 years ago in 6 months of 16 hr days....Some of us are born to work all day every day we dont need to calculate money for every hour of the awakn day....Farmers and self employed folks don't look at it day to day, we get paid on weeks or months time, as long as the dough is stacking up and not disappearing- your making money....U all need to realize sugaring is a hobby for most probably 50perecnt or more of all who boil are hobbyist, they never gonna make money, lol sometimes reading these posts are like watching the news........Good luck

[blissville maples]

I think if you are more likely to help your wife bake cookies than cut wood, you should not be including time as a cost cuz most of ur time is likely watching NASCAR drinking beer spending money....So just cuz ur out for 4 weeks doesn't mean u need get paid to make it sound good

[BAP]

I think if you are more likely to help your wife bake cookies than cut wood, you should not be including time as a cost cuz most of ur time is likely watching NASCAR drinking beer spending money....So just cuz ur out for 4 weeks doesn't mean u need get paid to make it sound good
Must be you work for free at your regular job and give your syrup away for free too if you feel your labor for sugaring is worth nothing. Counting your labor in any business is important if you truly want to know how much money your business is making.

[GeneralStark]

First thing is you ha e to stop buying Al this new stuff.....Any stainless will do, lol....Last year I invest 6k invaccum, everything else been used for years, made 16k insyrup, no labor paid father boils 3-4 hrs a day and I have roughly 6 weeks invested. 2400 taps, this year on track to make 18k syrup nothing new all equipment is paid for year by year going g forward...... if I could make 3-4k a mk that all year I'd be set....... Really depends on how you can "make it happen". Sugaring is not like watching football, and I think some see it as an easy buck, those of us used to hard work make money!!!!!

Is that 16k before or after your expenses such as utility, insurance, property taxes, supplies, etc....?

[blissville maples]

Bap, lol no it's what you call efficientcy, 90 percent of my syrup is sold 22 a gal bulk, love to get 45+55 like some you folks, but try selling 700-1000 gals out of your driveway!! At 22 I'm making a helacious profit. I run a business with 3-4 employees, I gross about 250k a year from that.......But I run a big block high horse​ motor inside of me so I think that's why I'm more profitable....Nothing like getting her done, put the hammer down, let that animal out, most guys tip toe thru the tulips, I've seen it, not too many can run with me, lol sorry no offense to anyone just trying to help some understand why at 22 a gal I profit and this one guy says he could sell for a hundred a gallon and still not break even.....If so I would just give it away you'll feel better inside......No offenses o tell it like it is

[blissville maples]

That 16 k is after I deduct 500 for electricity, supplies like filter aid soap new taps etc another thousand....Taxes, lol trees don't incur much taxes, it's the 3400 sq foot house and the dam school board making my taxes go up and all these dam immigrants, but to satisfy you of my 4000 property taxes take 1500 off my profit and I'm still 15k. But I forgot to.mention the 18k was figured at 900 gals @20 a gal for quick math plug in 22 to 750 gals and then 40 for the 150 gals I sell local......
I just recoup that tax money pretty fast with correct math

[blissville maples]

Don't you have to pay property taxes either way, sugaring income is just an added offset......I guess I'm looking at things from a larger scale efficient operation, I suppose if you want to recoup a thousand dollars investment with 10 gals of syrup good luck Yea 100 a gal will break u even bit you can't look at it like that.....I believe I'm speaking with folks who are on a different sugaring level than I am

[AdirondackSap]

22$ a gallon is giving it away. Do all that hard work to sell it for less than half of what the syrup is worth. To me thats just stupid. I fill my truck and trailer with syrup. I go to where ibget premium prices. Down south ots more than just making syrup you got to sell it and its not hard to sell wholesale 40$ a gallon

[Homestead Maple]

Blissvile, you must have more taps than the 1,500 taps that your profile shows if your making between 700 - 1,000 gals of syrup a season. Maybe your taps yield 1/2 gal a year though.

[hookhill]

Yeah after all these years we finally figured out that it was easier to make it then it is to sell it. A friend of ours peddles his syrup in Rhode Island somewhere. He goes down on summer weekends to farmer markets. He at least gets 2.5 times the bulk price. The only drawback is that its a real nice summer day here in Vermont and he is sitting at a farmers market in Rhode Island. Selling is extra work, it is another job. Making the sale, packing it up and shipping. There is also the part called getting it into jugs. All that is work, and plenty of it. There is something to be said for dropping off 40 gallon drums of syrup and getting a check. What I would like figure out though, is how to get $40 a gallon wholesale the easy way. Any suggestions appreciated.

[Big_Eddy]

I don't try to work it out on an annual basis, and I have no expectation of ever making a profit from syrup, so do not keep books around the syrup "business", either sales or expenses. However, I have a pretty good idea of my direct labour time and actual costs for each "additional" litre of syrup. (Marginal cost)

Here's the simplified details for the sap collected last night from 180 buckets.

Collecting time 4ppl @ 45 mins for 80 gallons sap.
Boiling time @ 20 gph = 4 hours x 1 person + 1 hour startup and cool down.
Filtering and bottling = 1 hour x 1 person + 1/2hr x 2nd person. = 1.5hrs
Syrup produced 10 litres.
Bottles $13.95 / 6l = $23.25 for 10l
Labels $0.21 x 10 = $2.10
Firewood Replenishment = 1.5hrs


Total yesterday

10l syrup
$25.35 actual expense
11 hrs labour


or $2.53 + 1.1 hr for every litre I make.


My fixed annual labour and costs include

Tapping 180 buckets 4 people, 8 hours
Washing buckets 2 people, 6 hours
Evaporator cleanup and summerizing 6 hours
Fuel costs (tractor and chainsaw) ~$40
New Filter and pre-filter annually ~$50
Misc items $10


Total 50 hours plus $100 annual outlay. Divide that over my annual production of ~150 litres
Fixed cost / litre = $0.67+ 0.33 hrs

Total cost = direct + fixed = $3.21 + 1.43hrs / litre produced.

A litre sells for $20 around here, so my effective hourly rate is $11.74/hr

This does not take into account any land costs, replacement equipment or capital depreciation (buckets, tanks, evap, tractor, etc.) and it assumes that firewood costs are free.
It also doesn't take into account the fact that my 4 boys consume 1/3 of our annual production and we give away another 1/3. But it should give you somewhere to start from.

[johnpma]

I don't try to work it out on an annual basis, and I have no expectation of ever making a profit from syrup, so do not keep books around the syrup "business", either sales or expenses. However, I have a pretty good idea of my direct labour time and actual costs for each "additional" litre of syrup. (Marginal cost)

Here's the simplified details for the sap collected last night from 180 buckets.

Collecting time 4ppl @ 45 mins for 80 gallons sap.
Boiling time @ 20 gph = 4 hours x 1 person + 1 hour startup and cool down.
Filtering and bottling = 1 hour x 1 person + 1/2hr x 2nd person. = 1.5hrs
Syrup produced 10 litres.
Bottles $13.95 / 6l = $23.25 for 10l
Labels $0.21 x 10 = $2.10
Firewood Replenishment = 1.5hrs


Total yesterday

10l syrup
$25.35 actual expense
11 hrs labour


or $2.53 + 1.1 hr for every litre I make.


My fixed annual labour and costs include

Tapping 180 buckets 4 people, 8 hours
Washing buckets 2 people, 6 hours
Evaporator cleanup and summerizing 6 hours
Fuel costs (tractor and chainsaw) ~$40
New Filter and pre-filter annually ~$50
Misc items $10


Total 50 hours plus $100 annual outlay. Divide that over my annual production of ~150 litres
Fixed cost / litre = $0.67+ 0.33 hrs

Total cost = direct + fixed = $3.21 + 1.43hrs / litre produced.

A litre sells for $20 around here, so my effective hourly rate is $11.74/hr

This does not take into account any land costs, replacement equipment or capital depreciation (buckets, tanks, evap, tractor, etc.) and it assumes that firewood costs are free.
It also doesn't take into account the fact that my 4 boys consume 1/3 of our annual production and we give away another 1/3. But it should give you somewhere to start from.

Outstanding post!!

[BAP]

You gotta love people who think they are smarter and know more than everybody else, plus everyone else is not as good as they are.

[Louie]

It's not how fast you boil, it's how well you boil fast.

[blissville maples]

Homestead-. I do that update regularly Sorry, as profile said more to come in 16....Currently have 2400 taps all but 500 on high vac 27.5"+.......Sorry boys 22 a gal is profitable...If not time to give it up!!! Yea I like being a know it all it's lovely, lol, momma didn't raise no fool, wasn't born stupid and didn't get smart for no reason !!!!

[blissville maples]

It's not being a know it all, it is what it is, we all can't be intelligent, be a boring world..... However you can't deny intelligence when it's there or your called an ignorant fool

[AdirondackSap]

People like you willing to sell it dirt cheap is the reason prices are going down. Shooting yourself in the foot. Dont see how 22$ a gallon is profitable on 2400 taps. Say you get a quart per tap 600 gallons x 22$ islike 13k not even worth the effort.

[wiam]

People like you willing to sell it dirt cheap is the reason prices are going down. Shooting yourself in the foot. Dont see how 22$ a gallon is profitable on 2400 taps. Say you get a quart per tap 600 gallons x 22$ islike 13k not even worth the effort.

Anyone that is only getting a quart/ tap is not in this for the money.

[Sugarmaker]

Hey, I'm getting pretty close to a quart per tap! I resemble that remark.:)
As far as being a know it all about stuff, that gets old real quick on a forum like this. By the way its 2017!
Regards,
Chris

[AdirondackSap]

Yea most modern systen you can get 8lbs a tap. Im going with the old quart per tap. Hard when you get 1.5% sap. I do it because i love it. Its also a businesd that has to make money. At 40$ a gallon a quart of syrup is not bad. At 22% a gallon now your not making nothing but pennys

[BAP]

Anyone that is only getting a quart/ tap is not in this for the money.
That's not really a true statement because try as much as you can to get all the syrup possible, Mother Nature has the final say. As this year proves, you can't control one of the most important factors, the weather. Location of your trees, type of trees, soil types, weather during the summer and so on are bigger factors than equipment used.

[Ivyacres]

I'm new and enjoy reading everything possible about the subject. It seems that this hobby/business is becoming more and more modern with the equipment being brought into play. Modernization has always played a role in the development of a product and typically cost is a major factor with bringing in those new technologies. Each individuals level of satisfaction in regards to financial success is going to be different and I believe it's fair to say most start because they enjoy the simple ideas and practices that makeup syruping. My desire to get the most out of every tree, tap and line, compels me to read and try the newest research each year. I don't even boil my own yet, but hope to in the next couple years. 250 taps and 3500 gals this year have taught me more about labor and much more. While I wouldn't normally think about paying myself for this hobby/future business, I would never ask someone else to work with or for me without paying them. Last year I sold 20 gals at an average of 65 per gal. I would always consider selling bulk if I had it, but only as a last resort. One thing I have learned from you(all you sap heads) is the true spirit of individualism. We love to be our own boss and make the decisions that affect our lives in the true spirit of entrepreneurship. It just looks a little different for each person. Blessings

[Homestead Maple]

Homestead-. I do that update regularly Sorry, as profile said more to come in 16....Currently have 2400 taps all but 500 on high vac 27.5"+.......Sorry boys 22 a gal is profitable...If not time to give it up!!! Yea I like being a know it all it's lovely, lol, momma didn't raise no fool, wasn't born stupid and didn't get smart for no reason !!!!
That is still a good return for your number of taps. You're doing something right.

[DrTimPerkins]

Yea most modern systen you can get 8lbs a tap.

I wouldn't borrow a lot of money speculating on that kind of return. Our long-term (13 yr) average is one of the best I know of, and stands at about 0.59 gal syrup/tap, or 6.5 lbs/tap. We have seen 8+ lbs/tap in some years, but have also seen 5.4 lbs/tap in poor years -- and we have had relatively few major failures we weren't prepared for with some type of backup. We aim for 0.5 gal/tap (5.5 lbs) each year, but hope for a little better. The norm is more like 0.4-0.5 gal/tap for "high-yield" producers.

[blissville maples]

People like you willing to sell it dirt cheap is the reason prices are going down. Shooting yourself in the foot. Dont see how 22$ a gallon is profitable on 2400 taps. Say you get a quart per tap 600 gallons x 22$ islike 13k not even worth the effort......Lol u know absolutely nothing about syrup, that's one of the stupidest thing I ever heard,. Haha......U fool the Canadian are making price go down,they bring tractor trailers down to Bascoms and flood the market....Why do u think there's a 3 month reserve of syrup??? Cuz I'm selling at 22 bulk?? U fool I have no choice either do any other big producer...Here's a news flash get ready for 19 a gal cuz by this year flood of syrup that's where it's headed..... The Americans dollar is cheap....Thanks to Obama borrowing money from reserve China and everywhere else....Some folks can't see the light of day, nice try though. No I'm not making price go down. And I get about .35- .4 per tap so I don't know where your getting 13k. Pushed over 600 last night, make another 50 today gonna be a 850-900 gallon year best ever.....My 900 gallons is making me some major money sorry it doesn't work for you that's way.....Some of us are just hobbyist which is fine, I am beyond that stage just to inform you

[blissville maples]

That's not really a true statement because try as much as you can to get all the syrup possible, Mother Nature has the final say. As this year proves, you can't control one of the most important factors, the weather. Location of your trees, type of trees, soil types, weather during the summer and so on are bigger factors than equipment used.
Now here's a man with Intelligence....Mother nature, he's got it she will make you laugh or cry!!!

[GeneralStark]

Wait I thought it was all the grants that were driving the price down....

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Wait I thought it was all the grants that were driving the price down....

LMAO General!! Here we go again. Popcorn time :lol:

[blissville maples]

Grants- no those are driving your TAXES up

[DaveB]

Must be you work for free at your regular job and give your syrup away for free too if you feel your labor for sugaring is worth nothing. Counting your labor in any business is important if you truly want to know how much money your business is making.

I have to chime in because I am one those people that doesn't feel that my time should factor into the cost of producing an item. I could come up with some arbitrary number of what my labor is worth and inflate the cost of an item but is that really accurate? As the owner, why wouldn't you factor in your entire income and subtract your costs to make something to determine how much profit (or income you have)? The way I look at, if I divide that figure by the number of hours I worked on it, that's how much I made per hour.

I'm either going to be sitting around doing nothing or I'm producing something. Time still moves forward and I don't see how that impacts the cost to produce something. If you're losing money on it then you need to figure out if it's something that is worth that cost to your bottom line but I just don't see how time and coming up with some arbitrary number per hour factors into it.

[blissville maples]

Thanks Dave, I knew there was light at end of tunnel!! like u say time goes and goes weather watching TV, sunset, kids play or being a work a holic who adds to the pile every day. People wanna be paid for every second of every day or every Friday, what happen to the whole building the nest egg slowly but surely...Or just doing something because that's what man was meant to do and you may benefit in a positive way from it, but not always.

[AdirondackSap]

800x22 =17600$ not exactly big money.

[BreezyHill]

I have to chime in because I am one those people that doesn't feel that my time should factor into the cost of producing an item.

I cant disagree with how some people value their time; but as of this past summer I cant disagree more. Once you have been said that "the driver of the black car is not expected to make it" on capital district news...you suddenly realize that life has no expiration date.

If you don't feel your time is worth factoring in, then go and volunteer at a charity that will value your time immensely.

I have always valued my time and have factored it in as sweat equity and is worth not less than what fast food workers get.

If you really want to find the cost of " your time" then go find some one to do all that you do in todays employee pool. It is a deep, deep swamp of people from the best people around to the laziest young adult that cant put a cell phone down for 3 hours because they might miss a snapchat or a text. When you have finally found somebody give it a few months and see if they are still around if they are you are either lucky or have had to give them a raise so that they will stay and not move to a better job.

And Yes blissville is absolutely correct that grants are welfare for business. Take a look around the country side and see how many shuttered farms there are that received grants. It is one thing to provide low interest loans with delayed payback start times to business but grants often prolong the termination of a business or is received by an entity that didn't really need the funds.

So who did the grant funds actually come from?

I know two millionaires that applied for and received grants in the 6 figures. Both of the entities went under within 5 years.

[DaveB]

I cant disagree with how some people value their time; but as of this past summer I cant disagree more. Once you have been said that "the driver of the black car is not expected to make it" on capital district news...you suddenly realize that life has no expiration date.

If you don't feel your time is worth factoring in, then go and volunteer at a charity that will value your time immensely.

I have always valued my time and have factored it in as sweat equity and is worth not less than what fast food workers get.


I don't disagree that my time has no value, I just question factoring that value into the cost of producing an item. It would be one thing if I had employees and was paying them a wage, but my only earnings are the profit I will have left over after I've sold everything I've produced minus the costs to make it.

You mentioned using a fast food wage to factor in your time but like I said, it's an arbitrary number. Why stop there? My day job pays a little better than that so why shouldn't I factor that wage as what my time is worth? The only problem is, I can't do that job while I'm sugaring. I also can't deduct that wage from my taxes as if I'm paying someone. I also don't factor that into my cost of acquiring other goods. If I were to account for my time with everything else, it would be cheaper for me to not drive to a store to buy anything because I guess I should be factoring in my time to get the item to my home. It would be cheaper for me to just sit around and wait for it to be delivered because I don't have to put anything into the acquisition.

I totally get that time is invaluable and needs to be cherished but I'm just questioning factoring it into the production of an item if I am the sole producer and I don't factor it into other costs.

[blissville maples]

It's big enough money for 6-9 weeks of time...1800-2000 a week....As a hobby....I pull another 60-80k net from my business so it doesn't need to provide me a fortune YET....In 5-10 years I'll be making 3000+ gals.. sugaring to me is getting paid 100k a year (pro rated to12 month) to be on vacation!!!!

[blissville maples]

It's the fact that what else would you be doing with your time that actually makes you money??? Absolutely nothing..... Fishing makes you very little money, drinking beer, watching TV, baking cookies... None of these make you Money.....So what else would you be doing in February March April.....Most are staring out window watching snow melt......"" Ahh as I pull off some nice amber syrup!!!"""

[BreezyHill]

Sorry I guess the fast food worker sarcasium was missed...in the fine state of NYS were the land owner feeds the city of NYC, there is a bill that will pay fast food workers $15 an hour but a skilled laborer in the building or even building the soon to be building across the road may not get that and could be getting less than $10/hr. Sorry that was to be humor to lift those that had to pay there tax bill by yesterday. There goes another $10K.

Dave you are worth at least $10/ hr. I am sure of that. The issue is that we are discussing what to us is enjoyable, entertaining and a hobby for others; while for some it is a way to cover the taxes, pad the retirement income. To all those if we put out a fictional break even point we are not helping those that are looking for honest information.

In a town near everyone there is someone that get the idea that making syrup must be profitable since there are so many people doing it now. To them if they see that break even is $18 and bulk is $22 then they will further the thought but it the true break even number is $24.50 and bulk is $22 then they will see that yes we are crazy nuts that like to feed our addictions.

I had one of those neighbors. He wanted to know how much that RO costs, the evap, he had a vacuum pump and a bulk tank and he gets blk plastic at cheap prices. So why should he not tap his woods and just make syrup? Well it is all those other "toys" that we all need, the knowledge, that we are all sharing, and last but not least the time to string the lines tap the trees and boil and then keg it off to make $22 a gallon.

So lets say he spends a few hours and gets a grant for an RO, buys a rig at an auction for $1k and invests $2000 in tubing and supplies. Where is he going to sell that bulk syrup for $22 when the market is saturated and he is only offered $17 now next season.

This is why you need to include your time at a fair value to yourself and educate the public at large that what we do is time demanding, labor intensive as certain times of the year that many would rather be inside warm and dry; and not warm and sweating tending a fire or tending the boiling pans. Or wearing insulated gloves so we don't burn our hands off.

If you want to be horrified take a look at how much money some farms are being paid for things they would do because it is the best way.

Back several years ago I was getting paid to not plant corn on fields that I rented and planted to hay as I was a hay dealer. Some years I made more money off those payments than on the hay in drought years.

[blissville maples]

Another scam paying Farmers to plant certain crops....When is the nonsense bs gonna end....No worries der why were 29 trillion in hole, a direct correlation to why bull syrup going down....When we fire up the money printer in Washington it makes our dollars worth go Down...As Canada's dollars get stronger, the syrup price goes down cause as we all know the federation sets it.

[blissville maples]

This world is so friggin sickening and people can't even see it, sad sad sad

[GeneralStark]

Actually the US Dollar is stronger than the Canadian Dollar and has been for several years. Why would a bulk buyer pay more for U.S. syrup than they can for CA syrup? That is why the price has gone down. But who needs facts when you got it all figured out?

Another thread becomes the Blissville/Breezy soapbox.....

[BreezyHill]

Correct, the printing of money does reduce the value of currency. All one needs to do is to look at history of economies when large amounts of currency has been printed. Not less than the printing of new US bills and coins from 2006 to 2015.

Yes the US dollar is worth more than the Canadian currency, currently. That's why the addition of tariffs and duties will bring balance to the market and stave off financial doom for US farmers from a massive flooding of markets from cheaper sources abroad. Just look at what has happened to the beef market since the mid 1970's. If it were not for the droughts of the last 3 years in the south and west beef farms of NY and New England would have been decimated. And even with low numbers of cattle, prices are low due to all the boxed beef comin in from South America, where there is little to no safety protocols in farming. They still use products that were outlawed here decades ago.

We Maple Producers should take a lesson from the beef producers manual and be promoting Product Safety measures. Our large buyers will nolonger except syrup in potentially harmful containers so why are producers still collecting sap in old galvanized buckets, or in tank that are not safe for potable water?

These producer are liable for health issues down the road, just as the manufactures of PFOA products are being held liable in my area.

It is a good notion to build a nest egg or to build ones farm or business to a point at which the next generation can take over and the previous can retire securely. But to build the nest egg one needs to have some semblance of the value of ones time. If one is engaged in an undertaking that is loosing money then it takes longer to build the egg. Money can not buy happiness," but it can buy you a boat and a truck to pull it" to where you can find relaxation and happiness.

I am perplexed why it is that when one offers a differing point of view it is called getting on a soap box???

It would be a very boring world if everyone saw things from the same perspective and it would be the death of common sense.

[johnpma]

Best part of all this is that the "raw material" is in most cases is free to us!! Have to love making a finished product
From something that costs nothing!