Using a syrup hydrometer

[Cedar Eater]

I've mostly avoided using a hydrometer to verify that I've reached syrup density because they are imprecise anyway. I've watched some youtubes of people using them and it's clear that some of them don't use them correctly. They put syrup into a room temperature cup and don't test the syrup temperature, assuming that it will not cool quickly when they dip it out of their finisher. I took a reading on syrup in the cup about 30 seconds after filling it and it was already down to 184*F. That would certainly cause the hydrometer to float higher than 211 degree syrup would cause and could cause nearup to be bottled as syrup.

The only way that I can see to keep the temp up is to put the cup in a pan of boiling water or into the syrup itself before filling it, but I've never seen that instruction printed anywhere. The alternative is to measure the temp of the syrup while the hydrometer is in the cup and find the right reading for that temperature, ignoring the red lines and of course, hoping that the paper hasn't slid inside the hydrometer since it was calibrated. That seems like unnecessary complexity.

But let's just assume for the sake of this that the hydrometer is calibrated properly. Assuming the depth of the syrup in the finisher is sufficient, what are the downsides of floating the hydrometer directly in the finisher where it is much easier to read the syrup temperature and keep it at 211? I'm asking because I am considering building a deep stainless steel electric finisher from a stock pot and a spa heater element.

[Run Forest Run!]

Hey Cedar Eater, perhaps you might want to consider getting a hydrotherm instead. It measures density in syrup that is anywhere from 35 degrees F to 210 degrees F in temperature. It was recommended to me by Big Eddy (a member here on MapleTrader) and I'm so thankful for his advice. It's been wonderfully easy to use.

[Cedar Eater]

It seems like I would only be swapping a cheaper device of questionable accuracy that is somewhat cumbersome for a more expensive device of questionable accuracy that is somewhat less cumbersome but has two inaccuracies built in (temperature measurement + density measurement). I guess that I have a problem with the difficulty of calibrating or verifying the calibration of either of these.

And I still would wonder why I'm not just floating the device directly in the finisher.

[mellondome]

Lots of producers float them.in the finisher or their draw off tubs.

[wiam]

Lots of producers float them.in the finisher or their draw off tubs.

I do not use a finisher. I float my hydrometer in my draw tank. I occasionally check temp but it stays pretty close so I know where hydrometer should float.

[Russell Lampron]

I use an Accu-cup which has a thermometer built in. It came with a nice laminated conversion chart so that I know what the brix should be at any temperature. I only float my hydrometer in my draw off tank when it is deep enough to keep the hydrometer from banging off the bottom. You can float the hydrometer in the finisher, canner, draw off tank etc. when it's deep enough to do so. The hydrometer cup is made to hold your sample. The diameter of the cup has no bearing on the hydrometer reading.

Not to hi-jack your thread but what is the difference between the Accu-cup and Murphy cup?

[mellondome]

Murphy cup has the temperature label replaced with a calibrated brix label. It eliminates the conversion chart. For syrup, your hydrometer should read the same as the inducator on the dial. I use the floating style in my draw off tank.

[Cedar Eater]

My original question is, "what are the downsides of floating the hydrometer directly in the finisher?". The only downside that I see is that if you break the hydrometer in the finisher, you have a cleanup issue that is more involved than if you break it in the cup. Are there other downsides that I am missing?

[Sugarmaker]

Float it in your finisher! So if your finisher is boiling syrup at 217 what is the hydrometer supposed to read? Can you read it through the bubbles?
Regards,
Chris

[MN Jake]

It will sink further if set in boiling syrup causing you to finish past done. Physics.

[Sugarmaker]

The other thing you could set out to do would be to design and build a low cost device to measure the density of maple syrup during and after boiling and be accurate to within +/-1%. The industry really needs and deserves that tool!
Regards,
Chris

[Cedar Eater]

Float it in your finisher! So if your finisher is boiling syrup at 217 what is the hydrometer supposed to read? Can you read it through the bubbles?
Regards,
Chris

My finisher will be electric. I can stop the bubbles with a flip of a switch and start them again just as easily and keep reading the temperature the whole time.

[Cedar Eater]

The other thing you could set out to do would be to design and build a low cost device to measure the density of maple syrup during and after boiling and be accurate to within +/-1%. The industry really needs and deserves that tool!
Regards,
Chris

You're not really trying to be helpful, are you? :lol: I'm assuming somebody would have invented that already if it was doable. That's why we're doing it by floating breakable tubes in hot liquids. I'm just trying to make the best of a bad situation. The cup makes it worse. The paper makes it worse. The fragility of the glass makes it worse. The prospect of burns make it worse. I can eliminate the inconvenience of the cup with a well designed finisher.

[buckeye gold]

I hang my cup right in the flue pan. It stays hot. I have a pot holder I use to hold it while testing. I will still fill it and dump it back to the finisher a couple times to be sure heat is up. I have kept a probe in it and watched the heat and I have determined that my average reading temp. is between 207-209 degrees. I adjust my reading and go from there. I usually go a tad on the heavy side for insurance, but looking at my adjustment chart there is very little difference in 207/209 and the reading at 211, so I can live with a small variance between the two readings. I have checked it at room temperature as a double check and I have never had to adjust it later. If you want to be sure, room temp. is the best check as things aren't changing rapidly. Print you out a chart to find your brix value at room temperature. I made a copper cup and it holds heat extremely well.

[Sugarmaker]

You're not really trying to be helpful, are you? :lol: I'm assuming somebody would have invented that already if it was doable. That's why we're doing it by floating breakable tubes in hot liquids. I'm just trying to make the best of a bad situation. The cup makes it worse. The paper makes it worse. The fragility of the glass makes it worse. The prospect of burns make it worse. I can eliminate the inconvenience of the cup with a well designed finisher.

Maybe not very helpful today?:)
Yea if we had a better tool for under a $100 we would all be using it.
I like the Murphy cup. This is the first year using that tool and I now realize how much the temp of the drawn off syrup was dropping in the cup. This tool and the Accucup (sp) are about the best we have.
Your finish pan is going to be fairly deep like a cup depth to float the hydrometer. I have seen others do this. I assume your going to be using a good thermometer in the finishing pan too?
Thanks for putting up with a old man!
Regards,
Chris

[Cedar Eater]

Yes, I plan to finish more than 3 gallons at a time in a 16 qt pot if I can. That's going to be more than 9" deep. I will be able to vary the current to the 240V heating element which causes a fountain. If it works as well as it seems to in the evaporator, the whole pan won't be foaming up as the syrup finishes.

[NW Ohio]

My finisher will be electric. I can stop the bubbles with a flip of a switch and start them again just as easily and keep reading the temperature the whole time.

I don't know anything about spa heaters so you'll have to excuse me... Is this going to boil the sap in the finisher? If so the temp will be closer to 219o. When you shut it off the bubbles go away is because the temperature is dropping but it isn't going to drop to 211o instantly and make the red line usable. The syrup will be too hot and it (the red line) will theoretically be below the surface when you have syrup. If you want to use the red line on your hydro you will have to let the syrup cool to 211o. If you find that you don't have syrup yet you will have to flip the switch and wait some time for the bubbles to come back, probably not instantly (although you will still be evaporating some water away even when it is not boiling).

I have a hard time using a hydrometer in a large container. It is always moving because of the current in the container (spinning so that I can't see the scale especially). If any foam exists it always seems like the hydro finds it and makes it difficult to read. I always have to take hold of the hydro, move it to where I can see the scale, let it go, it bobs up and down a couple %, spins, settles down where I can't see the scale. Then I try again. Sounds like others do it and it works for them... they must be living right.

There is nothing magic about the 211o red line. I believe it is only there because someone (Leader?) did some research and found that to be the average temp by the time a sugar maker got a reading from the hydro. I use it as a reference only and do not bottle based on that single reading. Before my current method I always had a thermometer in the syrup with the hydro and then referred to the chart for any adjustment.

In the original post you said hydrometers are imprecise. I would argue that is not true. A hydro will give you the same results time after time if you use it correctly (accurate temp. and hydro readings, adjusting with a chart)(insert my Murphy cup plug here). Whatever your method, you must take accurate temp and hydro readings and adjust accordingly. What you seem to be concerned about is accuracy and if that is the case you just have to use your tools correctly.

Believing the use of a cup is suspect because some guys on YouTube use them wrong makes me smile.

[BAP]

Why do you say a hydrometer is not precise? Do you not know how to use it correctly? Hydrometers have been the industry standard for Maple Syrup making for decades. Why are you keeping the syrup in your finisher deep enough to float a hydrometer?

[Russell Lampron]

Why are you keeping the syrup in your finisher deep enough to float a hydrometer?

I call it a finisher but mine is actually a 22 gallon draw off tank on a set of burners from an old gas grille. I draw all of the syrup that I make during a boil into it before I filter it and I normally make around 12 gallons plus of syrup in a boil. When I get up around 15 gallons there is enough syrup in the tank to float a hydrometer. I use my Accu cup so that I know what the temperature is but when the draw off tank/finisher is close to boiling I will float the hydrometer in it. I have a hydrometer that I use at the draw off and one that I use for density correction. I will sometimes float both of them in the finisher at the same time to see if they are both still reading the same.

[Michael Greer]

After making too much syrup that would crystallize a jewel the size of a ping-pong ball, I decided to move the finishing process off the wood fire and on to the gas range. This allows me to fine tune the temperature/weight balance on a much more controlled flame, and I can cook a bit more or add thinner syrup to get it just right. When it hits the mark, it goes into the filters at 220.6 (yesterday), or whatever temp is right for the day, and from there into the containers. It has eliminated those crystals, and can be done later if needs be.

[wnybassman]

Yes, I plan to finish more than 3 gallons at a time in a 16 qt pot if I can. That's going to be more than 9" deep. I will be able to vary the current to the 240V heating element which causes a fountain. If it works as well as it seems to in the evaporator, the whole pan won't be foaming up as the syrup finishes.

My finishing pots are 16 quart pots that I have on a dual burner table top unit. While it is boiling, I simply submerge the hydro cup into the syrup in the pot and pour it out a few times before filling it to take a reading. I don't know how much simpler it can be than that.

I normally fill (well, a couple inches from the top) one of those pots in an all day boil, and have three pots ready to go when I decide to bottle. Once one pot is adjusted to the correct density, another is already heating up while I am running the the first into the steam filter canner.

[Cedar Eater]

I don't know anything about spa heaters so you'll have to excuse me... Is this going to boil the sap in the finisher?

Yes.


If so the temp will be closer to 219o. When you shut it off the bubbles go away is because the temperature is dropping but it isn't going to drop to 211o instantly and make the red line usable. The syrup will be too hot and it (the red line) will theoretically be below the surface when you have syrup. If you want to use the red line on your hydro you will have to let the syrup cool to 211o. If you find that you don't have syrup yet you will have to flip the switch and wait some time for the bubbles to come back, probably not instantly (although you will still be evaporating some water away even when it is not boiling).

But I can read the Brix or Baume number on the scale and see how it compares to whatever number is appropriate for the temperature.


I have a hard time using a hydrometer in a large container. It is always moving because of the current in the container (spinning so that I can't see the scale especially). If any foam exists it always seems like the hydro finds it and makes it difficult to read. I always have to take hold of the hydro, move it to where I can see the scale, let it go, it bobs up and down a couple %, spins, settles down where I can't see the scale.

These are good things that actually answered the question I asked. Thanks.


Believing the use of a cup is suspect because some guys on YouTube use them wrong makes me smile.

I don't believe it is suspect because some guys on youtube use them wrong. I believe it is suspect because it has a piece of paper inside that can move. How do you know when you buy a new one that the paper hasn't slipped before you got it? How do you validate the accuracy? Would you accept the reading from a cop's radar gun if you knew it hadn't been calibrated recently?

[Cedar Eater]

Why do you say a hydrometer is not precise?

Because two different hydrometers can give you different results. Because it has a piece of paper in it that can move. Because validating the accuracy is so difficult and requires trusting the accuracy of the tools you would use to create the test sample.


Do you not know how to use it correctly?

I know how to use it correctly. Do you know how to validate the accuracy?


Hydrometers have been the industry standard for Maple Syrup making for decades.

Because they are cheap and produce a more consistent result than a wooden spoon, assuming the paper doesn't move.


Why are you keeping the syrup in your finisher deep enough to float a hydrometer?

Because I am planning to finish that much syrup at a time. What are the downsides of floating a hydrometer in a finisher?

[Cedar Eater]

I call it a finisher but mine is actually a 22 gallon draw off tank on a set of burners from an old gas grille. I draw all of the syrup that I make during a boil into it before I filter it and I normally make around 12 gallons plus of syrup in a boil. When I get up around 15 gallons there is enough syrup in the tank to float a hydrometer. I use my Accu cup so that I know what the temperature is but when the draw off tank/finisher is close to boiling I will float the hydrometer in it. I have a hydrometer that I use at the draw off and one that I use for density correction. I will sometimes float both of them in the finisher at the same time to see if they are both still reading the same.

Thanks. My finisher is of a smaller scale, but your comments scale down nicely.

[Cedar Eater]

There may be times where you don't have enough sap or nearup to finish 3 gallons...like at the end of the season. Better have a backup plan.

I do. The PITA cup.


I'll have to check out those Murphy cups..sounds like the way to go.

Validating the calibration of a Murphy cup would be an issue for me.


I use a tall slim stainless thermos I happened to have as my hydro cup. I keep boiling water in it with the cap on..dump when ready to test and syrup temps don't drop more than a couple degrees if I am quick about it. Pain in the butt to fill the thermos with hot syrup tho...no handle. I have to dip with a coffee mug I keep heated in a 200 degree oven.

Yep. Cups make the process a PITA. :lol:

[Cedar Eater]

My finishing pots are 16 quart pots that I have on a dual burner table top unit. While it is boiling, I simply submerge the hydro cup into the syrup in the pot and pour it out a few times before filling it to take a reading. I don't know how much simpler it can be than that.

Flipping a switch on an electric finisher is simpler. What are the downsides of floating the hydrometer in the finisher where I have a continuous temperature reading already set up?

[wnybassman]

Flipping a switch on an electric finisher is simpler.

Not when you go to clean it :D

[Cedar Eater]

Not when you go to clean it :D

The finisher is going to need cleaning either way. Cleaning a finisher and a cup is more work than cleaning just a finisher.

[saphound]

I do. The PITA cup.








Yeah, I realized after I posted you already knew what to do with a smaller batch..I deleted that silly post. But as to the original question of downsides to floating your hydrometer in the finishing pot..just go for it. You know your going to do it anyway. Then you can let the rest of us know of any downsides. ;)

[Cedar Eater]

Yeah, I realized after I posted you already knew what to do with a smaller batch..I deleted that silly post. But as to the original question of downsides to floating your hydrometer in the finishing pot..just go for it. You know your going to do it anyway. Then you can let the rest of us know of any downsides. ;)

Well, yeah, I was going to try it anyway, but I wanted to know what to expect. I learned about the foam obscuring the reading issue. The ability to put the hydrometer into the finisher helps to justify the expense. Nobody had a show stopper issue. Some people don't question the accuracy of their instruments and don't know how to validate it. That kinda boggles my mind.

[NW Ohio]

I believe it is suspect because it has a piece of paper inside that can move. How do you know when you buy a new one that the paper hasn't slipped before you got it? How do you validate the accuracy?

In the past I have checked the accuracy of my hydrometers by making sucrose solutions of given concentrations (330 grams of sucrose with 170 ml of distilled water, heated to dissolve, brought the final volume back to 500 ml with water for a 66% solution). Having checked several hydrometers and not finding one that was significantly wrong out of the box I gave up on my attempts to discredit their makers.

I have broke a couple of hydrometers... What I found was that the paper had a dab of glue holding it in place inside the stem. On the hydrometer I am using right now it actually looks as if there are 2 glue spots. I have heard people claim that they do, but how often do they actually "slip" (not rhetorical, do they actually move)?


Would you accept the reading from a cop's radar gun if you knew it hadn't been calibrated recently?
I will only say that it depends on what my lawyer told me to do after I showed him my heavily edited cell phone video.:emb:

Edit:
Some people don't question the accuracy of their instruments and don't know how to validate it. That kinda boggles my mind.
If you check a previous post of mine from 2013 I did question the accuracy of my hydrometers. Then I checked them at different temperatures and concentration.

[Cedar Eater]

I have broke a couple of hydrometers... What I found was that the paper had a dab of glue holding it in place inside the stem. On the hydrometer I am using right now it actually looks as if there are 2 glue spots. I have heard people claim that they do, but how often do they actually "slip" (not rhetorical, do they actually move)?

I've heard that two new ones straight out of the tube and checked side-by-side don't always match and that some people have received them new with loose papers. I've also heard that repeated thermal cycling can cause them to slip, so if there is glue, maybe it gives up after a while. But hey, I bought one anyway, and none of that stuff has ever happened to me, so I'm willing to try it, especially if I can avoid using the cup when it is unnecessary.

And a spa heater element is a submersible 240VAC element that can sit nice and low in the bottom of a pan. This is what they look like.

http://www.spadepot.com/Universal-Flo-Thru-Spa-Heater-Element-10-P803C707.aspx

Add a base, a variable AC controller from eBay, a thermometer that you already own, and a cord, and you can turn a stock pot into a portable finisher for under $100. I might even add a spigot. I already have a smaller 120VAC finisher for small batches that minimizes the amount of time spent in the kitchen on the cookstove.

[BAP]

So you don't trust instruments made for production of syrup but are willing to use non food grade equipment to produce your syrup. Interesting!!!

[Cedar Eater]

So you don't trust instruments made for production of syrup but are willing to use non food grade equipment to produce your syrup. Interesting!!!

If I can make the equipment food safe, yes. Both positions are quite reasonable. I've worked as an instrument technician, so maybe that's where I get my distrust of glass tubes with paper scales stuffed inside them with no reference point marked on the glass. Even with a permanently marked reference point, if I was selling syrup, I would go to the trouble of validating the accuracy, unless I saw some kind of certification of accuracy that would hold up in court. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

[saphound]

One thing recommended to do when you first buy a hydrometer is make a mark inside the box right at the red line with the bottom tip touching the inside of the box. Then you have a reference point to check for paper slippage down the road.

[wiam]

If I can make the equipment food safe, yes. Both positions are quite reasonable. I've worked as an instrument technician, so maybe that's where I get my distrust of glass tubes with paper scales stuffed inside them with no reference point marked on the glass. Even with a permanently marked reference point, if I was selling syrup, I would go to the trouble of validating the accuracy, unless I saw some kind of certification of accuracy that would hold up in court. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

In Vermont hydrometers are new certified by the state. They also go to area maple meetings and test them with a known solution.

[Cedar Eater]

One thing recommended to do when you first buy a hydrometer is make a mark inside the box right at the red line with the bottom tip touching the inside of the box. Then you have a reference point to check for paper slippage down the road.

I've seen that recommendation and it's a good one. It works when the problem isn't built in from slippage or mistake before it gets to you.

[Clinkis]

Your really over thinking this. If your that concerned with being that precise and mistrust the accuracy of a hydrometer then spend the money on a good refractometer.

I've been using a hydrometer for 30 years and have never had an issue making consistently accurate syrup. And they are not that difficult to use once you have a bit of practice with one. Usually the biggest issue is trying not to drop it.

[Cedar Eater]

In Vermont hydrometers are new certified by the state. They also go to area maple meetings and test them with a known solution.

Vermont has a reputation to uphold, so that's a reasonable step. Michigan doesn't seem to support its maple syrup industry that much. But initial certification doesn't solve the problem of possible later unnoticed slippage at any time. It's a problem that could be solved with a permanent reference mark on the glass. And getting to an area maple meeting might be easy in VT, but I've never heard of one near me here in Michigan. Even the nearest supplier is a 3-4 hour drive one way. But I know how to make a test sample. Without a permanent reference mark, it's still a matter of keeping the fingers crossed.

[saphound]

I've seen that recommendation and it's a good one. It works when the problem isn't built in from slippage or mistake before it gets to you.

That made me go check mine...nothing has moved. It has two glue points. How the heck do they do that without the glue smearing inside the tube sliding the paper in. :confused: Anyone know how these things are made?
Anyway, it would seem to me that in order for the paper to slip, it would have to break bond at both those glue points and you could make the paper move by tapping or shaking the hydro...or seeing that the glue spots on the paper don't line up with the glue spots on the glass. As for being off from the factory..they are all state inspected before shipping. Are you saying you don't trust that?

[NW Ohio]

...maybe that's where I get my distrust of glass tubes with paper scales stuffed inside them with no reference point marked on the glass. Even with a permanently marked reference point, if I was selling syrup, I would go to the trouble of validating the accuracy, unless I saw some kind of certification of accuracy that would hold up in court. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

For what its worth, my leader hydros come with a stamp declaring "tested by the State of Vermont Department of Weights and Measures for accuracy." I don't know what is acceptable error for them but have found that they take their syrup pretty seriously up there.

I buy state tested equipment, treat it with care, and periodically inspect for issues. I could spend all day being paranoid about miss calibrated instruments. My alarm clock might not match the atomic clock, some rogue electron in the atomic clock may have been pulled off course by unknown forces affecting it anyways, and on, and on (and I am not even out of bed yet). Apollo astronauts carried slide rules to the moon and made it back. An instrument doesn't have to be anything more fancy than a glass tube with a piece of paper glued in it to be accurate (and precise). I feel we get pretty high quality syrup into a bottle in onto the breakfast table when properly using hydros as part of the process.

You could get a refractometer. Of course they can have their own set of issues. Then you have two devices that might give you different results...

[Cedar Eater]

Your really over thinking this. If your that concerned with being that precise and mistrust the accuracy of a hydrometer then spend the money on a good refractometer.

I've been using a hydrometer for 30 years and have never had an issue making consistently accurate syrup. And they are not that difficult to use once you have a bit of practice with one. Usually the biggest issue is trying not to drop it.

Most of my responses here are to people who seem to feel compelled to defend what is an inherently untrustworthy and difficult to validate system. It's not untrustworthy because error is common. It's untrustworthy because error can go undetected and the process for validating the accuracy is tedious. I think odds are very high that most people have never validated their hydrometer with a known sample. It's only because the syrup and most consumers of it are somewhat forgiving of error that people get away with it. But I've already said that I'm going to use one anyway. I'm just looking to eliminate sources of error by not using the cup when I'm finishing.

[psparr]

Vermont has a reputation to uphold, so that's a reasonable step. Michigan doesn't seem to support its maple syrup industry that much. But initial certification doesn't solve the problem of possible later unnoticed slippage at any time. It's a problem that could be solved with a permanent reference mark on the glass. And getting to an area maple meeting might be easy in VT, but I've never heard of one near me here in Michigan. Even the nearest supplier is a 3-4 hour drive one way. But I know how to make a test sample. Without a permanent reference mark, it's still a matter of keeping the fingers crossed.

Make a jig out of whatever material suits you so that it holds your hydrometer. Make some sort of marking indicator that points to any point in the hydrometer you choose.
Then when you want to check for slippage just place the hydrometer in the jig and make sure it still points to that point.

[Cedar Eater]

As for being off from the factory..they are all state inspected before shipping. Are you saying you don't trust that?

Mine has no proof of certification that I can see. Maybe it was inspected and maybe not. There is nothing equivalent to a UL or Good Housekeeping label on it. As far as I know, there is no requirement in Michigan that they be inspected or certified. I also can't tell if it has been glued and I wouldn't know for certain whether it was accurately glued. But I'll repeat myself. I'm going to use one anyway and all I'm trying to do is eliminate the use of a cup as a source of error.

[Cedar Eater]

Make a jig out of whatever material suits you so that it holds your hydrometer. Make some sort of marking indicator that points to any point in the hydrometer you choose.
Then when you want to check for slippage just place the hydrometer in the jig and make sure it still points to that point.

One of my complaints about hydrometers is the difficulty of validating their accuracy. Thank you for proving my point. If standard advice with every hydrometer said "Make a jig", I'm pretty sure that hydrometers would be a lot less popular. As I've said, marking a box or a tube or whatever only works if the hydrometer is valid when you mark it and that is a matter of trust unless you accurately make a valid sample and validate the hydrometer.

[BAP]

If you want one with certification, order one from The Maple Guy's who run this site, Leader or Bascom's as they all advertise them as State of Vermont tested and approved.

[Cedar Eater]

If you want one with certification, order one from The Maple Guy's who run this site, Leader or Bascom's as they all advertise them as State of Vermont tested and approved.

I'm pretty sure that State of Vermont certification doesn't mean "guaranteed never to slip". As said, the combination of certification and a permanent reference mark in the glass would be required to get me to trust one right out of the box for use for syrup for sale. Otherwise, I would validate with the best test sample I could produce and I would mark the glass with a Sharpie and whenever that got rubbed off, I would revalidate and remark. Anything less is trust without verification.

[Ed R]

Don't mark your hydrometer with a sharpie.

[Cedar Eater]

Don't mark your hydrometer with a sharpie.

Why not? I would be marking where the top of the paper is, not down on the scale.

[bowtie]

All I use is hydrometer, I have two or three and check them against each other on occasion to make sure they are accurate.in small evaporators in my mind they are the only accurate way to determine syrup. I finish my syrup on a propane finisher after I draw and filter twice from evap. So the hydrometer/cup is really very easy for me.the 211 is very important because as the liquid cools it becomes more dense, so if your syrup is say 190 it will give a more dense reading than at 211 or higher same goes for the cold test number.

[Sugarmaker]

FYI The exterior glass of the hydrometers from Smokey Lake are etched to match a mark on the paper. That may be the first producer of hydrometers to do that. Also the SL hydrometer has actual numbers that you can read to make more sense about what brix your reading compared to other hydrometers where you just guess at the brix number of the syrup your testing. The Murphy cup can be calibrated with slushed ice to check and or calibrate the thermometer portion of that syrup test system.
Our NWPA maple association has spent the money to have the same testing service as Vermont. So any of our members can get new and or used hydrometers tested at one of our meetings prior to the season. I have a least one that did not read correctly. It has been set aside.

Your method of finishing syrup off the evaporator should be about the best temperature control you can get.

There are all kind of Digital refractometers out there too. Like Misco. So for maybe $600 you can have the best digital syrup testing system available to the average syrup maker. They say they do well at hot test too. Only need a few drops nothing floating in your syrup.
Regards,
Chris

[Ed R]

Why is it getting g rubbed off? If you can't have exposed OSB board twelve feet from boiling sap what makes you think an inspector would be happy with sharpie inches from finished product.

[bowtie]

Sugarmaker, how far into pa are you? Would like to see pics of the cub cadets, I wanted to start collecting but wife has sort of nixed that for now. I do have 122 and 2 newer lawn tractors, and my 45 horse tractor but have always liked the older ones.

[Cedar Eater]

Why is it getting g rubbed off?

From rinsing the syrup off with hot water.


If you can't have exposed OSB board twelve feet from boiling sap what makes you think an inspector would be happy with sharpie inches from finished product.

Inspector? How many boutique producers in Michigan ever see an inspector? How many even have an FDA compliant sugar shack? Sharpies are certified non-toxic.

[Cedar Eater]

FYI The exterior glass of the hydrometers from Smokey Lake are etched to match a mark on the paper. That may be the first producer of hydrometers to do that.

As far as I know, that's the only one to do that. Mine isn't a Smokey Lake and doesn't have it. But if you had one of those, you could use it to validate one that isn't etched.

[sap retreiver]

When I bought mine it came in a plastic tube . So I marked the tube and keep it in there so every time I touch it I can see

[Cedar Eater]

When I bought mine it came in a plastic tube . So I marked the tube and keep it in there so every time I touch it I can see

Did the tube have a sponge at the bottom? Is that sponge going to compress further, harden while uncompressed, or even degrade to powder over time?

[Russell Lampron]

Did the tube have a sponge at the bottom? Is that sponge going to compress further, harden while uncompressed, or even degrade to powder over time?

I've got three hydrometers from three different manufacturers in their own plastic tubes and none of them have a sponge in the bottom of the tube.

[NW Ohio]

Sharpies are certified non-toxic.

Although Sharpie markers are certified non-toxic their maker does "not recommend using them on areas of items that may come in contact with food or the mouth." This quote comes from their own website. I probably wouldn't worry about it but it appears that some might.

I just want to be clear, and since everybody's operation is different, that is not easy. It sounds like some float their hydros in finishers and like that route. For the reason I stated before I don't. I use a Murphy cup because their calibration and operation is unbelievably simple, and they are so dang shiny. I would never do it any other way now... until I find a better way.

If you want my support for measuring brix in you finisher... you got it, but I have reservation doing it myself.
If you want me to agree that a cup is a PITA... nope, seems like a natural and functional part of a process I enjoy.
If you want agreement that hydros are imprecise... nope.
If you are looking for the same on accuracy... it all depends on several factor that have already been addressed, but I don't believe that you are fixing any of them by using it in you finisher.

One more side not: I have a really old hydro that says "Proof & Tralle's Scale for Spirit" on the paper that has the scale on it. Kind of one of those dumb things I ended up with when a grandparent passed. The stem has a larger diameter than any of my hydros so I thought I would see if I could get the paper to move. No luck. Beyond "hearing stories" about sliding papers has anybody ever experienced a paper that actually did, or are sliding papers just the stuff of legends?

[MN Jake]

We have the Murphy cup also, it works like a charm!
I always draw off a little overdone and at the point of having 5 gallons I test it and correct it with whatever is needed out of the draw off. Thru the filter it goes and into the bottler. Screws up our draw for a while but it's better than having to heat it again.

[Cedar Eater]

Although Sharpie markers are certified non-toxic their maker does "not recommend using them on areas of items that may come in contact with food or the mouth." This quote comes from their own website. I probably wouldn't worry about it but it appears that some might.

I won't be licking or smooching my hydrometer. In this crazy world, it seems like something someone might do, but not me. And I'm pretty sure that nobody else will be licking or smooching my hydrometer either.


If you want my support for measuring brix in you finisher... you got it, but I have reservation doing it myself.

Noted.


If you want me to agree that a cup is a PITA... nope, seems like a natural and functional part of a process I enjoy.

Different strokes for different folks, as long as they keep their mouth away from my hydrometer, I got no problem with what they do with their cups.


If you want agreement that hydros are imprecise... nope.

Mine doesn't have tenths of a Brix on the scale and the red lines are kinda fat. I'll stick with imprecise as a good description of the only one I have experience with. I hear people claiming that they read XX.X Brix and I think they are either guessing or using a different hydrometer.


If you are looking for the same on accuracy... it all depends on several factor that have already been addressed, but I don't believe that you are fixing any of them by using it in you finisher.

I'm not attempting to fix an accuracy issue with my finisher. Just an inconvenience and potential source of error issue.


One more side not: I have a really old hydro that says "Proof & Tralle's Scale for Spirit" on the paper that has the scale on it. Kind of one of those dumb things I ended up with when a grandparent passed. The stem has a larger diameter than any of my hydros so I thought I would see if I could get the paper to move. No luck. Beyond "hearing stories" about sliding papers has anybody ever experienced a paper that actually did, or are sliding papers just the stuff of legends?

I have no idea whether sliding papers are the stuff of legends. I don't have enough experience with them to draw upon. I have only experience with numerous other kinds of instruments where everything from loose screw threads to weak batteries to clogged tips to corroded sensors has to be easily detectable before they will be trusted. Some of these were control instruments and in some cases, lives would be at stake if the readings were wrong. As I said, hydrometers are not untrustworthy because errors are common, but because without permanent indexing marks on the glass, errors can easily go undetected. Lives are probably not at stake if the readings are lower than the actual density, but higher readings on your hydrometer can at least get you fined in some jurisdictions.

[Cedar Eater]

I've got three hydrometers from three different manufacturers in their own plastic tubes and none of them have a sponge in the bottom of the tube.

Mine has a sponge at the bottom and had one at the top to protect it during shipping. It was difficult enough getting the top one out. I'm not even going to try to get the bottom one out.

[Sugarmaker]

I dont think I had heard about getting fined for heavy syrup? Interesting concept? Not sure how it might be enforced? I believe that I have heard about syrup under density having issues? That would be like watering syrup down to stretch it further.
Good luck in your adventures with density. I would suggest that you enter some of your syrup at a well judged fair and see how the results come out. Hitting the density spot on is usually a lot of luck and a little planning.
The product is tolerant of some variations. Its going on pancakes! We want it to taste good and if the density is at or above 66.9 Brix the public should not have any issues with it. If below 66.9 by much they may be able to tell it is a little watery. Also below that number and the chances for spoilage is much greater. Way above 66.9 and sugar crystals will begin to form over time. I don't charge extra for sugar crystals, and if i am going to error I would rather be on that side of the density.
Another suggestion would be to visit some sugarhouses in your area that may be making 10 to 50 gallons of syrup per day and double check how they may be checking density.
I am not disagreeing with any of your comments! If getting syrup right was easy everyone would be making it!
Have you ever made syrup with a accurate calibrated thermometer for the boiling point of water that day and went 7.1 degrees F over that temp? They says its pretty close. No hydrometer needed.
Ever step back into the old world and check for syrup with a flat syrup scoop? (My dad called it apron-ing) No thermometer or hydrometer needed with that method. I think I can get you pretty close (within 1 or 2 degrees F) to syrup with a scoop. No fancy bells and whistles, not sliding papers, no floating glass things. Just you, your boiling syrup and your trusty scoop.
Sometimes you just have to get back to basics.
Regards,
Chris

[Cedar Eater]

I dont think I had heard about getting fined for heavy syrup?

You don't get fined for heavy syrup, you get crystals for that. You can get fined if you think your syrup is heavy enough when it isn't, if you read a higher Brix number on your hydrometer than your syrup actually is. What made you think it was the other way around?


Have you ever made syrup with a accurate calibrated thermometer for the boiling point of water that day and went 7.1 degrees F over that temp? They says its pretty close. No hydrometer needed.

I have been making my syrup by going 8 or more degrees over the current boiling point (with a thermometer calibrated as accurately as I can) because I prefer my syrup on the dense side and crystals don't bother me. But the constant refrain of "Use a hydrometer it's the only way to truly know what you have" on this site made me want to design my finisher so that I can more easily and more reliably use one. That required getting one so that I can certify my finisher for use with a hydrometer, assuming that a certain finished batch size is met.


Ever step back into the old world and check for syrup with a flat syrup scoop? (My dad called it apron-ing) No thermometer or hydrometer needed with that method. I think I can get you pretty close (within 1 or 2 degrees F) to syrup with a scoop. No fancy bells and whistles, not sliding papers, no floating glass things. Just you, your boiling syrup and your trusty scoop.

Yes, I've done that, too, with a flat spatula. It's how I validate that my temperature reading is high enough It's called "sheeting". I made the very point that hydrometers weren't necessary to making good syrup here last year when I asked if there was anyone who thought they couldn't make good syrup without a hydrometer. Nobody was willing to confess to that.

[wishlist]

[QUOTE=Cedar Eater;326895]And getting to an area maple meeting might be easy in VT, but I've never heard of one near me here in Michigan. Even the nearest supplier is a 3-4 hour drive one way. .[/QUOTE

If you are sugaring in Alcona County I would recommend you stop and visit Sarah Orbin at Thunder Bay Maple Supply in Posen. Gotta be close as its the next county north! How far is that from you ? She is close to a 10,000 tap operation and many members on here know her or know her father Glen Goodrich. She's from Vermont and I'm sure she could put your mind at ease on using a hydrometer. It wouldn't surprise me if her hydrometers are Vermont certified. The family has been making syrup for years and I'm sure they floated many hydrometers.

The Michigan Maple Association has its winter meeting in Mt Pleasant every January . Lots of vendors and classes to help us producers . Again, not far from Alcona county . Another organization is the Commercial Maple Producers , which is a relatively new organization, and they have a meeting in Gaylord I believe in November.

[buck3m]

Like many tools, a hydrometer will work well if used properly and work poorly if used wrong.

For example, I don't wait 30 seconds to test my syrup. The hot test mark on hydrometers makes an allowance for briefly cooled syrup. Not perfect but obviously plenty close.

I always have at least two hydrometers. When I get a new one I test it against an old one, then use a sharpie to mark the location of the red lines on the outside of the storage tube so I know the paper hasn't slipped, something that has never happened to me in 40 years.

I've made errors on density so the process isn't foolproof, but the fault is always mine, not the hydrometer's. My Skilsaw often cuts lumber to the wrong dimension as well.

[Cedar Eater]

If you are sugaring in Alcona County I would recommend you stop and visit Sarah Orbin at Thunder Bay Maple Supply in Posen. Gotta be close as its the next county north! How far is that from you ?

Thanks. Thunder Bay Maple Supply is just over an hour away and is a Lapierre dealer. Judging from their online catalog, their support for 3/16" tubing has not caught up yet and that makes me an unlikely customer of them. They seem more oriented to the commercial producer market and not the hobby producer market.


She is close to a 10,000 tap operation and many members on here know her or know her father Glen Goodrich. She's from Vermont and I'm sure she could put your mind at ease on using a hydrometer. It wouldn't surprise me if her hydrometers are Vermont certified. The family has been making syrup for years and I'm sure they floated many hydrometers.

As I've stated, the thing that would put my mind at ease on using a hydrometer would be a permanent mark on the glass to index it to the paper. I don't know why people keep thinking that years of experience trusting an inherently untrustworthy instrument should matter to me. I would not want to buy gasoline from a refiner who uses a potentially undetectable slipping scale for measuring octane no matter how many years they had been using it.


The Michigan Maple Association has its winter meeting in Mt Pleasant every January. Lots of vendors and classes to help us producers . Again, not far from Alcona county .

Mount Pleasant is about 2-1/2 hours away. That's kinda far. Is there a reason that the Michigan Maple Association has no presence among the other maple associations in the State and Local Maple Associations section of the forums on MapleTrader.com? Their absence is conspicuous.


Another organization is the Commercial Maple Producers , which is a relatively new organization, and they have a meeting in Gaylord I believe in November.

Gaylord is a little under two hours away. That's not terribly far, but I'm just a hobby producer. I don't sell any of my syrup. I'm not likely to become a commercial producer because I'm not really interested in working that hard. I would be more prone to going to Gaylord to visit Michigan Maple Systems when/if they open their store there.

[BAP]

If you don't sell syrup and don't plan to, then why do you keep arguing with everyone that offers suggestions about using hydrometers. If you don't like them and the way they are made, then don't use them. Spend more money and buy yourself more expensive testing equipment. There has been a lot of people trying to help you and you keep turning down their suggestions. If you don't like how products are made, then invent one that is made they way you want. That's how creative people get the tools they need and want to get the job done. Their is a lot of knowledgeable and experienced people on this great forum that are more than willing to help others with their problems, but the people asking for help need to be willing to listen to what is said.

[Clinkis]

If you don't sell syrup and don't plan to, then why do you keep arguing with everyone that offers suggestions about using hydrometers. If you don't like them and the way they are made, then don't use them. Spend more money and buy yourself more expensive testing equipment. There has been a lot of people trying to help you and you keep turning down their suggestions. If you don't like how products are made, then invent one that is made they way you want. That's how creative people get the tools they need and want to get the job done. Their is a lot of knowledgeable and experienced people on this great forum that are more than willing to help others with their problems, but the people asking for help need to be willing to listen to what is said.

Well said! I thinking we have all been thinking it but biting our tongues

[Sugarmaker]

You don't get fined for heavy syrup, you get crystals for that. You can get fined if you think your syrup is heavy enough when it isn't, if you read a higher Brix number on your hydrometer than your syrup actually is. What made you think it was the other way around?



I have been making my syrup by going 8 or more degrees over the current boiling point (with a thermometer calibrated as accurately as I can) because I prefer my syrup on the dense side and crystals don't bother me. But the constant refrain of "Use a hydrometer it's the only way to truly know what you have" on this site made me want to design my finisher so that I can more easily and more reliably use one. That required getting one so that I can certify my finisher for use with a hydrometer, assuming that a certain finished batch size is met.



Yes, I've done that, too, with a flat spatula. It's how I validate that my temperature reading is high enough It's called "sheeting". I made the very point that hydrometers weren't necessary to making good syrup here last year when I asked if there was anyone who thought they couldn't make good syrup without a hydrometer. Nobody was willing to confess to that.

Maybe I wasn't on here last year? And I am not confessing to anything! I gave you a antique method of making syrup in the woods under the moon light! And I told you my father called it Aproning! You can call it "SH*T in a mitten" if you want. You have a real problem listening!
And If I was a betting man I would bet you $100 that there was a statement in this thread that stated "you would get fined for having heavy syrup". Guess I forgot to reply to it with a quote. I wont make that mistake again in your threads. Maybe I just dreamed it, I am pretty old!
With that said I think myself and all the others that have contributed to your thread, have given you some of the best suggestions available in the past and present equipment used to check the density of maple syrup.
Go make some good syrup!:)
Regards,
Chris

[wiam]

I can't believe this thread has gone on for this long.

[Cedar Eater]

If you don't sell syrup and don't plan to, then why do you keep arguing with everyone that offers suggestions about using hydrometers.

Why do so many people here keep defending the use of this inherently untrustworthy tool? Why do so many make the claim that you won't really know whether you've made syrup unless one of these untrustworthy tools tells you that you have? Why are so many newbie hobby sugar makers told that hydrometers are essential to making syrup? Why don't most hydrometer makers add a permanent mark on the glass to help you validate that the paper is in the right place but instead tell you to mark a box or a tube in case their product fails to remain accurate? I've explained why I plan to use one, to certify my homemade finisher for use with one. I intend to write a detailed howto (build an inexpensive electric finisher) for the homemade equipment forum and the ability to use a hydrometer in it will require knowledge of how much finished syrup must be in it to float it at finishing temperature.

I'm beginning to think these things are a crutch that people use so they don't have to determine the boiling temp of water for the time they are making syrup.



If you don't like them and the way they are made, then don't use them. Spend more money and buy yourself more expensive testing equipment. There has been a lot of people trying to help you and you keep turning down their suggestions.

The only thing that I asked for help on was the downsides of using one in a finisher. What does it say about all these people that they keep harping on the use of them anywhere else?

[Cedar Eater]

With that said I think myself and all the others that have contributed to your thread, have given you some of the best suggestions available in the past and present equipment used to check the density of maple syrup.

And all that I asked for was the downsides of using a hydrometer in a finisher. Correct? And if I recall correctly, only one or two people addressed that issue.

[Sugarmaker]

Float it in your finisher! So if your finisher is boiling syrup at 217 what is the hydrometer supposed to read? Can you read it through the bubbles?
Regards,
Chris

There's one response! Float the hydrometer in the syrup in the finisher! It should work, kind of!
I saw one of my cousins finishing about 20-30 gallons this way. Finisher was 24 x 24 x 24 deep approx. Gas fired. They did it that way for years, maybe still do??
Regards,
Chris

[bowtie]

The only downside is if for whatever reason it becomes inaccurate, that is why have you have at least two, this will remedy this situation.For a small to medium producer there is no better, or cheaper tool for testing finished syrup than a properly calibrated hydrometer. If you test in a in cup made for the application, boiling syrup will not fall below 211 degrees in the 5-7 seconds it takes to read it.it is really fool proof, that's why it is the industry standard and has been for a couple of decades.they are other ways to test but none are as easy or care free as the hydrometer, once it hits the red line it is done. Period.

[johnallin]

OK I'll bite...but only in an effort to see this thread closed. It's going nowhere and is beginning to upset some fairly un-flapable traders.


I'm beginning to think these things are a crutch that people use so they don't have to determine the boiling temp of water for the time they are making syrup.?

I thinks it's been said here many times that the hydro is pretty useless if you don't know the temp of the sample.
I don't think there's a syrup maker on here that thinks it's a crutch - nor do they take the comment kindly that they need a crutch...that's starting to get personal.


The only thing that I asked for help on was the downsides of using one in a finisher. What does it say about all these people that they keep harping on the use of them anywhere else?

This is what you asked in your first post"

1)<"But let's just assume for the sake of this that the hydrometer is calibrated properly.">
It seems that the bulk of this thread is your rebuttals to advice given by the good folks who have successfully used hydrometers for - in some cases- generations.
They agree with your first assumption.

2)<" Assuming the depth of the syrup in the finisher is sufficient, what are the downsides of floating the hydrometer directly in the finisher where it is much easier to read the syrup temperature and keep it at 211?>"
Looks to me like no one saw a down-side to floating a hydro in a finisher and that many do just that.
Everything is still all good.

3) <" I'm asking because I am considering building a deep stainless steel electric finisher from a stock pot and a spa heater element. ">
That's a commendable project, good luck with it.

I'm thinking this thread may have been a lot shorter if you had simply asked how many syrup makers thought a hydrometer was a crutch.
You may have even received a few replies. But instead it's turned into a barrage of veiled insults to the intelligence of lots of great folks who make syrup for a living and don't care where you use your hydrometer. I don't get it and I think it should end now.

[Sugarmaker]

Why do so many people here keep defending the use of this inherently untrustworthy tool? Why do so many make the claim that you won't really know whether you've made syrup unless one of these untrustworthy tools tells you that you have? Why are so many newbie hobby sugar makers told that hydrometers are essential to making syrup? Why don't most hydrometer makers add a permanent mark on the glass to help you validate that the paper is in the right place but instead tell you to mark a box or a tube in case their product fails to remain accurate? I've explained why I plan to use one, to certify my homemade finisher for use with one. I intend to write a detailed howto (build an inexpensive electric finisher) for the homemade equipment forum and the ability to use a hydrometer in it will require knowledge of how much finished syrup must be in it to float it at finishing temperature.

I'm beginning to think these things are a crutch that people use so they don't have to determine the boiling temp of water for the time they are making syrup.

The only thing that I asked for help on was the downsides of using one in a finisher. What does it say about all these people that they keep harping on the use of them anywhere else?

The term inherently trustworthy seems to be your opinion more than a lot of folks. Directing new folks to use a fairly low cost low tech tool to help them make a quality product seems to be why they are directed to that type of tool rather than a $600 digital refractometer, which may be out of their price range at this time.

My guess is that most people don't float there hydrometer in the finisher. They probably draw off some syrup from the finisher into a hydrometer cup and check it that way.

The detailed "how too build" sounds good! I would think that the depth of the finisher would need to be at least the depth of a hydrometer that is going to be used, plus room to have boiling action, plus some room for real boil over, so maybe double the depth of a std hydrometer?? like 20 inches deep? The volume is only needed to allow the hydrometer to float.

Glad you have decided to use this inaccurate tool to certify your syrup finishing. Seems to fit with the theme of this thread too!
How do you certify a finisher?
Regards,
Chris

[Clinkis]

I find the opinion of someone who has little to no experience with a hydrometer and yet calls into question the integrity and intelligence of generations of syrup makers "inherently untrustworthy". We have no need to defend the use of a hydrometer. We know their use and value.

[Cedar Eater]

The term inherently trustworthy seems to be your opinion more than a lot of folks.

Does it not have a failure mode that can easily escape detection?


How do you certify a finisher?

By testing the suitability for purpose, determining the limits, and making claims of worthiness based on the limits. That's why I'm pretty sure that those who certify hydrometers don't include guarantees that they will remain accurate.

[Cedar Eater]

I find the opinion of someone who has little to no experience with a hydrometer and yet calls into question the integrity and intelligence of generations of syrup makers "inherently untrustworthy". We have no need to defend the use of a hydrometer. We know their use and value.

Then why are so many of you defending it and not addressing the question that I asked?

[Cedar Eater]

instead it's turned into a barrage of veiled insults to the intelligence of lots of great folks

No insults were intended (at least not on my part) and I don't understand why they were perceived.

[Clinkis]

What question did you ask that has not been answered?! And is there any answer that anyone is going to give that your not going argue against! We've all tried to answer your questions multiple times but you refuse listen to the answers! Every answer that has been given you argue and disagree with yet have no experience or proof to back it up except to say it's "inherently untrustworthy".

[Clinkis]

No insults were intended (at least not on my part) and I don't understand why they were perceived.

SERIOSLY! Have you actual read what you have written!

[BAP]

I think it's time for the moderators to close this thread before it gets any uglier and ruins the integrity of this site.

[buckeye gold]

(In best Yoda voice) THis one to argue, likes he. Much to learn has he....I fear listen, he will not, Ob'e one sugarmaker ...this one I would not try to train

[Cedar Eater]

What question did you ask that has not been answered?!

What are the downsides to using a hydrometer in a finisher? Two or three people have addressed it. All the rest have tried to convince me that hydrometers are not what they are. There is apparently one manufacturer who indexes the scale to the glass. If I was selling syrup, that would be the only one I would buy.

[wnybassman]

"Close enough" has made millions and millions of people happy for many generations.

I finish in a 16 quart stock pot, and this year I did experiment with killing the boil and just sticking the hydrometer into the pot for a reading. I didn't like the fact I had to kill the boil to get a reading, taking the time to bring it back to a boil afterward even though with gas it was only a minute or so. Also, I always felt I was over the 211º mark doing it this way because with this much mass it would take a little longer to cool to that temp. I never did take a temp reading to confirm this though. Besides, how accurate are thermometers anyway? :D In any event, I quickly went back to just submerging the cup in the pot a few times then fill it to take a reading.

[Cedar Eater]

"Close enough" has made millions and millions of people happy for many generations.

I finish in a 16 quart stock pot, and this year I did experiment with killing the boil and just sticking the hydrometer into the pot for a reading. I didn't like the fact I had to kill the boil to get a reading, taking the time to bring it back to a boil afterward even though with gas it was only a minute or so. Also, I always felt I was over the 211º mark doing it this way because with this much mass it would take a little longer to cool to that temp. I never did take a temp reading to confirm this though. Besides, how accurate are thermometers anyway? :D In any event, I quickly went back to just submerging the cup in the pot a few times then fill it to take a reading.

But you still have to have a temperature reading so thermometer inaccuracy is the same issue either way. My thermometer has a probe that I hang over the side so I will get a continuous reading. That's how I'll know when to flip the switch and take a density reading. I don't have to let the temp drop to 211. I can just use the reading for whatever temperature the syrup is at. And then I can flip the switch and have it boiling again in five seconds.

[buckeye gold]

I do trust Hydrometers to check my syrup density. I have the calibration of mine checked before every season by reference in a liquid of known density. I spent many days in a wet lab using all kinds of instruments to check water quality and chemical analysis. The hydrometers we use are probably in the 96% accuracy range. technique of the person will make a difference. There are several issue that affect accuracy. Since surface tension is one of these I do believe a bubbling surface in a finisher would effect the reading. You read the meniscus and a moving surface makes that hard to do. Also, it is important to have the hydrometer clean and of the same temperature and as the testing liquid. I keep mine in a thermos of very hot water. This keeps it clean and warm. I never use the first reading,but take a second or even third and use that one has the hydrometer has then come to sample temp and is coated with the syrup which equalizes it with the sample. After every reading I clean and wipe it. Here is a couple links on scientific hydrometer use:

http://icllabs.com/helpful-hints-for-hydrometer-use/

http://www.kimble-chase.com/pdf/Brochures/hydrometers.pdf

so it is my opinion floating a hydrometer in a finisher is not a technique that lends to accuracy.

As for their use in the industry, I think they do just fine and will consistently give readings within acceptable levels of accuracy for Maple syrup.

[Cedar Eater]

so it is my opinion floating a hydrometer in a finisher is not a technique that lends to accuracy.

My finisher will be electric and will be turned off and will have a still surface when I take the reading. There will be a temperature probe in the syrup with a calibrated ChefAlarm reading the temperature continuously. If foam or bubbleS are an issue, they will be scooped off. Does that change your opinion? If not, why not?

[buckeye gold]

Cedar eater,

I think I will just pass on having any more opinions or offering any additional resources to this thread. I think your mind is made up and you are going to do what you want to do. I really don't understand why you asked for input, unless you just wanted personal validation. People have tried to offer you what they feel is good sound logic and time tested experience and yet you challenge everyone who comments. The industry accepts hydrometers as an effective tool to measure density of syrup and the agencies who have statutory authority recognize them and use them for legal measurements, so that is good enough for me. I think it's time to just end this discussion. However, there has been some good information shared for anyone looking for answers, so thanks for at least prompting some useful discussion for others to view.

[Rangdale]

Perhaps the risk of it breaking in the finisher would be a downside? I'm not sure about others but if I broke glass in my syrup I'd be pretty pissed and would have to trash it. I'm sure it could be filtered out but that just wouldn't seem right to me. As far as testing the accuracy of a hydrometer, I just buy a bottle or two from a couple of different producers and do the cold test with their syrup against mine. I suppose all three could be off the same amount causing the hydrometer to float with the same inaccuracy in all three samples but the odds of that seem quite small. By checking my hydrometer this way I am helping other guys by buying their syrup, I get to verify my hydrometer against others AND I get a couple more bottle of syrup, to which you can never have enough.

[Cedar Eater]

Cedar eater,

I think I will just pass on having any more opinions or offering any additional resources to this thread. I think your mind is made up and you are going to do what you want to do. I really don't understand why you asked for input, unless you just wanted personal validation. People have tried to offer you what they feel is good sound logic and time tested experience and yet you challenge everyone who comments. The industry accepts hydrometers as an effective tool to measure density of syrup and the agencies who have statutory authority recognize them and use them for legal measurements, so that is good enough for me. I think it's time to just end this discussion. However, there has been some good information shared for anyone looking for answers, so thanks for at least prompting some useful discussion for others to view.

I wanted to see what objections would be raised to using a hydrometer in an electric finisher and whether those objections should result in design changes or method of operation changes. I got some good feedback with "remove the foam" and "remove the bubbles/turbulence" and I'm grateful for that and I've incorporated that advice into how I plan to operate it. But I've seen that the biggest objection is that "it's not a cup". That's something I can't understand the validity of. I read the links that you presented. One of them said to use a cup that is much larger in diameter than the common narrow syrup cups and to take readings with the liquid at near ambient temperature. The other showed hydrometers that did not appear to have paper scales glued inside them where thermal cycling could loosen them and cause undetected slippage. Neither of those links seemed very applicable to a hot syrup test with a cheap syrup hydrometer and cup. So what other conclusion should I be expected to draw besides "it's not a cup"? Because it kind of is a cup. It's also one less thing to wash, there won't be a risk of it overflowing when the hydrometer is set in, the syrup won't have to be poured back in from it, it will be darn hard to accidentally knock it over, and it won't take up additional space on the work table. The personal attacks that have come from those who can't seem to understand that my goal is to get rid of the inconvenience and potential error of using a cup indicates resistance to change. None of those people were forced to offer an opinion, much less an off-topic one.

[Sugarmaker]

Cedar Eater,
Several good suggestions here!
I agree that if I broke a hydrometer in a large batch of syrup I would be disgusted at best.
I did have the bottom break off a hydrometer in a hydrometer cup. That cup of syrup got tossed.
Regards,
Chris

[Cedar Eater]

Perhaps the risk of it breaking in the finisher would be a downside? I'm not sure about others but if I broke glass in my syrup I'd be pretty pissed and would have to trash it. I'm sure it could be filtered out but that just wouldn't seem right to me.

That's something that I have considered and I'm surprised it wasn't brought up as one of the first objections. I would have to be much more careful about setting the hydrometer in and avoiding setting it on the element. I have even considered using a submerged holder of some sort to keep it contained if it broke. But I think the convenience of just setting it in outweighs the risk.

[Cedar Eater]

Cedar Eater,
Several good suggestions here!
I agree that if I broke a hydrometer in a large batch of syrup I would be disgusted at best.
I did have the bottom break off a hydrometer in a hydrometer cup. That cup of syrup got tossed.
Regards,
Chris

I agree that it's an issue. I don't think it's more of an issue than using a glass candy thermometer. Some old-timers still use old mercury thermometers.

[Sugarmaker]

If making good syrup was easy everyone would be doing it! Most folks come here to learn and get new and old ideas to fit there operation. Making syrup is more about the journey to make a delicious natural product. The tools what ever they are just help us do the work a little easier. Also most of us like to build things too. So we get stay up late, play with fire, Watch sap boil for hours, and taste it begins to get close to syrup.
Finishing good syrup to correct density is important along with a whole list of other things to get to that point.

Remember if its not leaking, broken, frozen or on fire your probably not making syrup! Sugarmaker 3-16-17

Regards,
Chris

[Ed R]

Have fun making your spa/sauna for your inherently untrustworthy sharpie marked hydrometer.

[BAP]

Remember if its not leaking, broken, frozen or on fire your probably not making syrup! Sugarmaker 3-16-17


Regards,
Chris[/QUOTE]
That's a good one, well said Chris
Bruce

[ash10383]

Thermos of hot water is a great idea! I might go one step farther and use hot sap that way it says clean and you don't waste the syrup. When your done add it to the next batch.

[saphound]

Well as one who doesn't sell his syrup, I can say with all certainty that if my hydrometer broke in a finisher that held 3 gallons of syrup, I ain't throwing it out. I'd fish out the pieces and filter it. If it will get that super fine niter, it will get any glass particles. Hell, I once watched a guy chew up and swallow light bulbs and other glass. I would throw out the filter and get a new one though. But hey, that's just me.

Edit: Let me just add to that, I use extreme caution when lowering my hydrometer into the test cup whether its a sap hydrometer or syrup hydrometer. Be super careful and focused on the task at hand and chances of this ever happening are pretty darned small.

[buckeye gold]

ash, I actually do use hot sap, I don't know why I typed water. I have a flat steel ledge in front of my syrup pan that I use as a burner. I keep a sauce pan of hot sap on it all the time. If i need to thin syrup i use it and I pour that in the thermos while I'm finishing. I have a skinny thermos that is just the right height for my hydrometer to set in and the stem is just above the top. Be careful putting the hydrometer in, as it will go right to the bottom fast.

[berkshires]

Long thread, and while I think I've read all of it, there's one thing I don't think anyone's mentioned. Cedar Eater, it seems that your primary objections to the hydrometer are that:

A - For it to be of any use, you must also know the temperature.
I think that's been adequately addressed by many already, who each have a standardized method that works for them to produce a sample with a consistent temperature.

B - Unless you validate it, you don't know if it is properly calibrated.
If you buy the right hydrometer, (at no great expense) it comes validated by Vermont. I know Leader sells them. Perhaps others do too. Otherwise, of course, caveat emptor.

It has an undetectable failure mode, in that the paper can slip.
This is the point I wanted to address. My Leader hydrometer actually has three red lines. Two on the paper for a hot and cold test. Those you know about. The third red line is actually part of the glass.

This line in the glass acts a reference point between paper and glass. It means that no matter if you lose the plastic tube it came in, or anything else happens, so long as the glass is intact, you can validate that the paper has not slipped. I recommend you buy this hydrometer in future:

16098

Cheers!

Gabe

[Russell Lampron]

Thank you Cedar Eater. I got something good out of this thread. After seeing Gabes picture of the Leader hydrometer with the red line in it I went to my local supplier and bought one. Today I was canning syrup and was able to float the new hydrometer and the two that I have been using in my canner to compare the three. Just as I had suspected the one that I use at the draw off was reading light and the one that I have been using for final density checking for five years was right on.

[Cedar Eater]

Thank you Cedar Eater. I got something good out of this thread. After seeing Gabes picture of the Leader hydrometer with the red line in it I went to my local supplier and bought one. Today I was canning syrup and was able to float the new hydrometer and the two that I have been using in my canner to compare the three. Just as I had suspected the one that I use at the draw off was reading light and the one that I have been using for final density checking for five years was right on.

I was also unaware of this feature of the Leader hydrometer. It seems to be the only one that has it, so if that remains the case, it will be the next one that I purchase. Unfortunately, I have no local Leader supplier so I will have to order it and pay shipping. I finally have enough sap to evaporate, so hopefully I will soon be testing the electrified stock pot finisher with a hydrometer.

[Galena]

I just stick with my so-called Quebec hydrometer, which has one red mark for measuring syrup at Brix when hot, and a second red mark for measuring syrup at Brix when cold. I prefer to use the hydrometer for cold, mostly cause I had at least a couple previous hydrometers bottom out on me and crack/break in the measuring cup in hot syrup!

[Bricklayer]

I also use the Quebec Hydrotherm. I find it really slow but I keep it in the test cup sitting right by the evap draw off pail with hot syrup in it. Still takes a bit of time to get to red line. But it's never let me down yet. I only usually test it once or twice a day then stick with the temp I checked it at for drawing off. Seems to work for me. I call it my hydrometer on steroids. The hydrotherm is basically the same concept as a Murphy cup or accucup. Thermometer and temperature compensation in one.

[johnallin]

I was also unaware of this feature of the Leader hydrometer. It seems to be the only one that has it, so if that remains the case, it will be the next one that I purchase. Unfortunately, I have no local Leader supplier so I will have to order it and pay shipping.

Pretty sure that Jim at Smoky Lake was the first to introduce a hydrometer with a built-in red indicator line to check slippage. Also all degree lines marked and divided to 1/2 a degree. It's a pleasure to work with..

[Trapper2]

I have never broken a Hydrometer by being careful. But with the adequate depth of the cup, why not place a 1/2" compressed piece of foam to the bottom of the cup to eliminate breakage. It would be easy to remove and clean also.

Trapper

[FDA]

Pretty sure that Jim at Smoky Lake was the first to introduce a hydrometer with a built-in red indicator line to check slippage. Also all degree lines marked and divided to 1/2 a degree. It's a pleasure to work with..

That's nothing new. Leader has had the red line for years.

[berkshires]

Thank you Cedar Eater.

Um... you're welcome? LOL! Seriously - glad I could add something of benefit.

Gabe

[wally]

Maybe I wasn't on here last year? And I am not confessing to anything! I gave you a antique method of making syrup in the woods under the moon light! And I told you my father called it Aproning! You can call it "SH*T in a mitten" if you want. You have a real problem listening!


my grandfather referred to it as "aproning", too. have also heard it referred to as ribboning. and sheeting.

intellectually, i can understand what CE is attempting to discuss. practically, there isn't a need, especially in cases where the finished product isn't being sold. find a method of determining "syrup" that works for you. if you aren't experiencing spoilage, you are probably OK.

in 40 years of producing, i've only had a single instance of spoilage, and it was my fault. i knew it was not quite syrup, but packaged it anyway. no harm, as i don't sell any, either, and i saved that questionable batch for myself, rather than give it away/trade.

wally

[johnallin]

That's nothing new. Leader has had the red line for years.

I've gone through more than a few hydrometers from Leader - was using one yesterday.
Sure they have a hot and cold red line; but some how I missed the etched line at the top.
That's great news. Thanks, I'll look closer next time I boil.

[FDA]

I've gone through more than a few hydrometers from Leader - was using one yesterday.
Sure they have a hot and cold red line; but some how I missed the etched line at the top.
That's great news. Thanks, I'll look closer next time I boil.

WOW!!!!!! Sorry, I have a old hydro in the sugarhouse with etched line at the top, I thought it was a Leader. I'll post a pic for you soon. If you care.

[johnallin]

WOW!!!!!! Sorry, I have a old hydro in the sugarhouse with etched line at the top, I thought it was a Leader. I'll post a pic for you soon. If you care.

No apologies needed from me FDA, I was being sincere not sarcastic and sure I care. I've been using a Smoky Lake hydro for that reason, as well as the clearly marked lines. That is until I dropped it yesterday... Grabbed a brand new Leader hydro I had on hand and never even thought to look for an etched red line.
It would be great if you'd send a picture. Leader makes great stuff and they have for a long time. Thanks

[Sugarmaker]

Glad to hear other hydrometer manufactures etching a line on the glass to mark the paper location. Sure seems like the thing to do to put that issue to bed!
Wow, at least one other old time syrup maker that called it "aproning"! (testing for syrup density using a scoop or implement). I just had not heard the term used anywhere else? One local guy called it flaking too. I had never heard that term before???
Regards,
Chris

[Cedar Eater]

intellectually, i can understand what CE is attempting to discuss.

Please explain that to me. I asked about the downsides of using a hydrometer in a finisher and almost everyone whose only apparent objection was "It's not a cup." tried to convince me that they understood the risks of hydrometers better than I did.

[johnallin]

WOW!!!!!! Sorry, I have a old hydro in the sugarhouse with etched line at the top, I thought it was a Leader. I'll post a pic for you soon. If you care.


No apologies needed from me FDA, I was being sincere not sarcastic and sure I care. I've been using a Smoky Lake hydro for that reason, as well as the clearly marked lines. That is until I dropped it yesterday... Grabbed a brand new Leader hydro I had on hand and never even thought to look for an etched red line.
It would be great if you'd send a picture. Leader makes great stuff and they have for a long time. Thanks

FDA, were you able to find that Leader hydro yet? Leader hydros are all Vermont tested - an etched line would be a plus. Thanks.

[wiam]

FDA, were you able to find that Leader hydro yet? Leader hydros are all Vermont tested - an etched line would be a plus. Thanks.

I just looked at my spare hydrometer. Says Leader Evaporator on paper inside. No red line at the top. I did find a line on a sap hydrometer though.

[saphound]

I just looked at my spare hydrometer. Says Leader Evaporator on paper inside. No red line at the top. I did find a line on a sap hydrometer though.

Yeah, my sap hydro (long) I got from "the Maple Guys" here at this site has the etched red line on the glass at zero, but the syrup hydro I bought from them doesn't have it. Kinda weird but I still say if you mark the box or the tube you store it in that's just as good.
Has anyone ever seen a video on how hydrometers are made? I'd like to see that.

[johnallin]

I just looked at my spare hydrometer. Says Leader Evaporator on paper inside. No red line at the top. I did find a line on a sap hydrometer though.

Same here with a new Leader syrup hydrometer I just picked up 2 weeks ago for a spare. Good thing I did too; broke 2 so far this month!

It's nice that this thread has taken a positive turn, some good information is passing hands now.

[Russell Lampron]

Thank you Cedar Eater. I got something good out of this thread. After seeing Gabes picture of the Leader hydrometer with the red line in it I went to my local supplier and bought one.


Um... you're welcome? LOL! Seriously - glad I could add something of benefit.

Gabe

I had to recheck to make sure that I did give you credit for the Leader hydrometer. I was thanking Cedar Eater because I got something good out of this thread.

[wally]

Wow, at least one other old time syrup maker that called it "aproning"! (testing for syrup density using a scoop or implement). I just had not heard the term used anywhere else? One local guy called it flaking too. I had never heard that term before???


forgot about another term for it - a curtain.

fwiw, The North American Maple Syrup Producers Manual, second edition, references "aproning". found in Chapter 7, page 146. also captions a photo (same page), "determining finished syrup using the apron test".

wally