2017 bulk syrup pricing

[mspina14]

What's the current bulk price for grade A amber?

Mark

[Brian]

I heard Bascoms is paying: Golden 2.15 Lb, Amber & Dark 2.00 Lb and Very Dark 1.85 Lb.

[wiam]

I heard Bascoms is paying: Golden 2.15 Lb, Amber & Dark 2.00 Lb and Very Dark 1.85 Lb.

I got paid $2 for amber on Monday at Bascoms.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Canadian dollar is currently at .74 US. Quebec Federation support on Golden is $2.95 Canadian = $2.18 US. I understand Bascom has enough syrup on hand to cover his markets until August. At this point, the major producing areas in the US have a great start on a bumper crop. I haven't heard anything about Quebec yet but it is very early for them. All in all it does not look like prices will strengthen.....

[cur dog]

I wonder what Trumps 20 percent "border tax" on Canadian syrup will do to the price?

[maple flats]

If that happens it should help our bulk price climb 20% +/- a little.

[mspina14]

Canadian dollar is currently at .74 US. Quebec Federation support on Golden is $2.95 Canadian = $2.18 US. I understand Bascom has enough syrup on hand to cover his markets until August. At this point, the major producing areas in the US have a great start on a bumper crop. I haven't heard anything about Quebec yet but it is very early for them. All in all it does not look like prices will strengthen.....

Sounds like there is a glut of syrup on the market....

Mark

[Vtmaple2]

Any updates on 2017 bulk prices? Is $2.00 a pound the going rate for 2017?

[maple flats]

I just got a sheet giving prices that are being paid May 4-5-6, 2017 at Countryside Hardware in DeRuyter, NY. They have buyer come in just for those 3 days, mornings only.
Golden $2.20
Amber $2.10
Dark $2.00
Very Dark $1.85
Processing $1.25
Ropy or unfilterable $.75

[spud]

Any updates on 2017 bulk prices? Is $2.00 a pound the going rate for 2017?

I was just told by my buyer yesterday the price has been set at $2.00 for non organic and $2.23 for organic. The Packers are saying that next years prices will be $2.00 for organic and $1.77 for non organic.

Spud

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

With the Canadian softwood lumber and dairy controversies, the Canadian dollar has dropped to 73cents. Not a good sign!

[GeneralStark]

Here is a recent informative article on the softwood tariff for anyone that is interested: http://northernwoodlands.org/editors_blog/article/canadian-softwood-tariff

Perhaps a tariff on Canadian maple syrup is on order....?

[Louie]

Syrup prices are down because of exchange rate but you sure can not get the exchange rate if you purchase equipment from Canada.

[wmick]

Syrup prices are down because of exchange rate but you sure can not get the exchange rate if you purchase equipment from Canada.

Just curious what you mean by this? I'm not very familar with Syrup marketing and trade, but I am very familiar with building and selling equipment. (Farm Equipment)
With the swing in the dollar, a EG. Vac pump that sells for $3000 CAD will cost you $2190 USD today, whereas it would have cost you $2250 USD one month ago.

That being said, if the the Canadian Manufacturer is buying his materials from the US... or in USD... which many do... , they may be in a position to need to impose price increases due to the change...
For instance, I purchase a lot of product in USD... both raw materials and finished goods... From USA and China... My material costs have gone up about 4% over the course of a month.... Pretty significant. We need to pass that on, regardless of where the customer is from.

[Louie]

Just curious what you mean by this? I'm not very familar with Syrup marketing and trade, but I am very familiar with building and selling equipment. (Farm Equipment)
With the swing in the dollar, a EG. Vac pump that sells for $3000 CAD will cost you $2190 USD today, whereas it would have cost you $2250 USD one month ago.

That being said, if the the Canadian Manufacturer is buying his materials from the US... or in USD... which many do... , they may be in a position to need to impose price increases due to the change...
For instance, I purchase a lot of product in USD... both raw materials and finished goods... From USA and China... My material costs have gone up about 4% over the course of a month.... Pretty significant. We need to pass that on, regardless of where the customer is from.
Great, I wish it did not matter where I was from also. If I walk into a Canadian dealers store I could buy equipment cheaper with US dollars but the dealer is worried he would get in trouble if the factory found out he was selling to the US. So I have to go to the US store. Same item but much more expensive, value jumped as it came across the border. If it was just the higher cost of materials the Canadians would have to pay more also. The companies want to make a little extra because of the exchange rate.

[Wannabe]

Perhaps a tariff on Canadian maple syrup is on order....?

I was wondering how that would work too? Many dairy farmers in my neck of the woods were impacted by the Canadian milk decision.
(not saying it would be the right thing to do)

[WestfordSugarworks]

I was just told by my buyer yesterday the price has been set at $2.00 for non organic and $2.23 for organic. The Packers are saying that next years prices will be $2.00 for organic and $1.77 for non organic.

Spud

I hope the prices will be better than that for next year. People are going to stop sugaring if they only are getting paid 1.77 per pound. Some may continue sugaring but not realize they are losing money because they don't have a grasp of their true costs. Either way it seems like people are still setting up new tubing and expanding. I hope it doesn't turn like the dairy industry but i've been warned from many farmers that it will.

[spud]

Syrup prices are down because of exchange rate but you sure can not get the exchange rate if you purchase equipment from Canada.

The syrup prices that have been set for this year are NOT because of the present exchange rate. Last year in April we were told by the PACKER that the price would drop .20cent the following year. That is just what happened. Now the Packer is saying next years price is dropping another .20 cents. Nobody knows what the exchange rate will be next year at this time but the price has already been set for next year. We could have a terrible season next year and there will still be enough syrup for all the packers needs. Canada has allowed millions more taps and USA is increasing every year as well. The market is saturated with syrup. The bigger problem I see is the dealers are going to have a hard time continuing to sell equipment at the prices they do when syrup prices keep dropping. The equipment dealers can only go so low and still make a profit. We have all watched CDL rise to the top in sales for equipment the last 5-8 years. I predict we are going to see dealers close their doors in the years to come. I don't wish for this but I believe this will happen.

Spud

[wdchuck]

Somewhere on here, I predicted the race to the bottom would eventually start up. Here we go, have a nice ride..........

[Parker]

Keep on adding taps and make more syrup,,spend a bunch of money on shiney new stuff and see how fast you go broke..........just like when the bulk price of milk drops milk more cows.........syrup has become the next emu, red deer, elk, beefalo ponzi scheem,,,,,(and its heavily subsidided on both sides of the border,),,too bad,,,,,work on your retail markets and value added my friends,,,,,,there is alot bulk on the market now and there will be alot more next year as those getting into it now will come on line,,,lets not forget about the new mega producer who has not even started to flood the market with their crop from the last 2 years....500000 taps is alot of barrels,,,,,,,,,

[markcasper]

I received a flyer in the mail yesterday and looks like CDL, at least here, is guaranteeing the lowest possible price and will beat any dealers price quote on anything sugaring. Never seen this before...interesting times thats for sure.

[wmick]

Great, I wish it did not matter where I was from also. If I walk into a Canadian dealers store I could buy equipment cheaper with US dollars but the dealer is worried he would get in trouble if the factory found out he was selling to the US. So I have to go to the US store. Same item but much more expensive, value jumped as it came across the border. If it was just the higher cost of materials the Canadians would have to pay more also. The companies want to make a little extra because of the exchange rate.
I guess they are just doing whatever they can get away with.. Their prerogative, I suppose?? In my business we mostly quote projects "cost up"... In these times with a low dollar, it means we stand a little better chance of landing some US projects... Exchange helps to offset some of the distance/freight factors. But I buy as much or more in US than sell... so its kind of a wash..

[Maplewalnut]

I received a flyer in the mail yesterday and looks like CDL, at least here, is guaranteeing the lowest possible price and will beat any dealers price quote on anything sugaring. Never seen this before...interesting times thats for sure.

I would be interested to see how that works. I guess it could work on a 'spout by spout' basis but probably a little different trying to match price from one mfr RO to another. Still bears watching. I have a decent size expansion upcoming with a new RO, so I am holding off til near end of early season discount to see how this plays out before selecting someone to go with.

[spud]

I received a flyer in the mail yesterday and looks like CDL, at least here, is guaranteeing the lowest possible price and will beat any dealers price quote on anything sugaring. Never seen this before...interesting times thats for sure.

If thats just on his inventory then thats a bad sign. He may be looking to get out as soon as he gets his money back. How many other dealers are in your state or area? I think the lowest the dealers can go is 20% off. Dealers are cutting 15-20% in my area all the time.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

The syrup prices that have been set for this year are NOT because of the present exchange rate.

More correctly, syrup prices are only partly related to exchange rate. The Canadian $ has dropped a few cents in the past few weeks, which translates to a slight drop in prices even if nothing else changes. The recent drop in price packers are talking about is also related to the fact that last year was a record crop for a good part of the U.S. and also for Quebec. They only have enough capital to buy (and then markets to sell to) so much syrup and only have so much storage space to put it all. This year was a good year for much (not all) of the U.S., and probably came close to matching the production of last year in Quebec, so there is a huge surplus of syrup. One bad year would mean that prices would jump back up. Two bad years and (good) syrup would be hard to come by. But if you can predict the future that well you should probably be in the stock market rather than in the business of making syrup. Whether maple syrup will enter into any upcoming trade talks is impossible to say (the U.S. administration is about as easy to predict as long-range weather), but the situation is similar to dairy and eggs and softwood in Canada. Overall....who know where it'll go. Then again....this is the way free markets work. If the profit margin is good, production will expand. When prices for a commodity drop, those producers who are less efficient will lose and may leave the business. The alternative is market supply control similar to the Federation. Pick a side and complain about the other if you want, but it makes no sense to complain about both unless you just want to complain (note that this last comment isn't directed at anyone in particular, or the particular post I happen to be replying to).

[DrTimPerkins]

Keep on adding taps and make more syrup,,spend a bunch of money on shiney new stuff and see how fast you go broke..........

While that may well be true, it is the U.S. system of free markets that we operate with on this side of the border. Your U.S. competitors have had same option to add taps that you have had. Hard to begrudge them that when many of us have done the same exact thing (add taps, make more syrup). However if the shoe drops, it'll be the most efficient operations or the least leveraged (in terms of payments for that shiny new stuff) that will survive.

[Parker]

What gets me is all the folks adding taps.and all excited to set up big new bushes..i have been talking to a bunch of folks in the industry, foresters, installers, equipment manufactures and they are out straight busy with expansions planned for this year.....its not like no one saw this comming...pretty predictable,,,what gets me is the reaction to low prices and uncertin markets,,add more??? Do you really think that there are going to be some bad years comming up when you can pull 28.7" inch o vac? Does not take long to make a bunch of sap a real high vac...and when your all tapped on jan. 1 ....Im not blaming anyone, i dont hope anyone goes under,,,but its kinda like wacthing a junkie jab a needle in their arm,,,you know where they are going to end up....predictable.........and i thought u.s production had nothing to do with the price paid??? Pretty sure i heard that somewhere?? Kinda funny what butternut is doing now to their long time loyal suppliers.....so when bascoms gets a call from a long time butternut supplier with 300bbls or a bunch of their suppliers that were told to sell their syrup somewhere ealse that has no affect on the market??? And thats why bruce dropped his price agine,,and will agine soon (i bet).......
I totally understand there is effecinciey in volume, but, you need to realize when everyone has the same idea and that volume has to go somewhere.....and the packers are in it for a profit,,,they are going to pay what the market will bear.......and they are compeating with each other in the market place .....how much is a quart of gross tasting can. Syrup at b.j's now? Bet it will be less in 6 months...
Just kinda makes me shake my head...all real predictable.......just wait till this time next year....ouch...........

[markcasper]

If thats just on his inventory then thats a bad sign. He may be looking to get out as soon as he gets his money back. How many other dealers are in your state or area? I think the lowest the dealers can go is 20% off. Dealers are cutting 15-20% in my area all the time.

Spud
https://www.facebook.com/285350821517089/photos/a.523352484383587.131145.285350821517089/1492204504165042/?type=3&theater

[spud]

It kinda looks like he is just having a big sale and helping his customers out. If thats the case then it's good business on his part.

Spud

[spud]

More correctly, syrup prices are only partly related to exchange rate. The Canadian $ has dropped a few cents in the past few weeks, which translates to a slight drop in prices even if nothing else changes. The recent drop in price packers are talking about is also related to the fact that last year was a record crop for a good part of the U.S. and also for Quebec. They only have enough capital to buy (and then markets to sell to) so much syrup and only have so much storage space to put it all. This year was a good year for much (not all) of the U.S., and probably came close to matching the production of last year in Quebec, so there is a huge surplus of syrup. One bad year would mean that prices would jump back up. Two bad years and (good) syrup would be hard to come by. But if you can predict the future that well you should probably be in the stock market rather than in the business of making syrup. Whether maple syrup will enter into any upcoming trade talks is impossible to say (the U.S. administration is about as easy to predict as long-range weather), but the situation is similar to dairy and eggs and softwood in Canada. Overall....who know where it'll go. Then again....this is the way free markets work. If the profit margin is good, production will expand. When prices for a commodity drop, those producers who are less efficient will lose and may leave the business. The alternative is market supply control similar to the Federation. Pick a side and complain about the other if you want, but it makes no sense to complain about both unless you just want to complain (note that this last comment isn't directed at anyone in particular, or the particular post I happen to be replying to).

Dr.Tim your way of explaining things is so much better then mine. Thank you for your post. I think it's great that people are getting into sugaring and the industry is growing. Yes the price for bulk syrup has dropped every year for the last several and that's part of sugaring. I would not discourage anyone from getting into sugaring. What I have said time and again to Traders is just be careful of your spending. Everyone loves a fancy sugar house with lots of shinny NEW equipment. The tour buses truck people in just to look at all the shinny new stuff in sugar houses. You never see them walking the woods though. One hour in the sugar house and then off to the next sugar house they go. Good Management is so important in any business. People should only buy new shinny stuff if their business can afford it.

Spud

[Sunday Rock Maple]

From Bing, The term "commodity" is specifically used when the goods or service has no qualitative differentiation across a market.

[markcasper]

Kinda funny what butternut is doing now to their long time loyal suppliers.....so when bascoms gets a call from a long time butternut supplier with 300bbls or a bunch of their suppliers that were told to sell their syrup somewhere ealse that has no affect on the market??? And thats why bruce dropped his price agine,,and will agine soon (i bet).......


So Parker, please tell us more about what Butternut has did to their suppliers? Is it similar to what Grassland Dairy is doing to their suppliers in Wisconsin?

I see government getting involved in the maple industry if people keep complaining about low prices. Even though prices are dropping, I don't think we are anywhere near bottom yet. It would not surprise me to see Grade A down in the 1.25 - 1.50 per pound range within the next year or two.

[BAP]

Kind of ironic to see members complaining that everyone expanding is driving down syrup prices, then read their profile and they have been rapidly expanding themselves. It's kind of like saying, it's ok if I do it, but don't you do it.

[spud]

So Parker, please tell us more about what Butternut has did to their suppliers? Is it similar to what Grassland Dairy is doing to their suppliers in Wisconsin?

I see government getting involved in the maple industry if people keep complaining about low prices. Even though prices are dropping, I don't think we are anywhere near bottom yet. It would not surprise me to see Grade A down in the 1.25 - 1.50 per pound range within the next year or two.

Parker is right in saying that Butternut has stopped buying. They are maxed out and their warehouse is full. They have given the ok to their buyers to sell their syrup to someone else. I could see Bruce and others using this to their advantage and lowering the amount they pay for bulk. I am not saying this is happening because I don't know but I can see it happening.

Spud

[Parker]

I am not complaining about anything..i am not trying to give anyone grief..i do believe the bulk price will be 1.50 a pound befor you know it...and i do think dr.tim is right that the most efficiant will survive like with any market. Common sense...it is just discouraging to hear folks peddeling sunshine and encouraging or at least not discouraging folks from investing in a market that in all liklyhood is a ways from the bottom....when you stop and look at the huge number of taps still being added (how many taps has the crown just opened up to tapping? Like 8million? This year) and the advances in technoigy and technique contributing to increased production it is hard to see the price recovering in the bulk market..mabey markets will increase, mabey we will have 2 bad years in a row and the price will recover a bit for a while. But. Long term. We are looking at, i believe (and im just one person) that we will see much lower prices...i dont dislike anyone here and im not trying to be a jerk......i just hate to see folks get caught up in the idea that its a good time to put hard earned money into producing for a bulk market that (in my opinion) is a ways from the bottom...i would love to be wrong!! I know i come across as negitve in these posts or not liking ppl. . Really, i am not....i just have a diffrent view that is not motivated in encouraging increasing overall production with the idea that the potential for return on investment based in the bulk market price as it is today is a great idea...
I also have a hard time wraping my mind around the concept that u.s. production has no affect on the bulk market price. I would love to hear how that is the case given that the federation has not dropped their selling price, yet the domestic price is droping not in relation the the value of the can. Dollar...
I would love to see demand skyrocket and prices stabelize!!! I think govt. Involvement would be a bad thing.. yes, i could have added more taps and i dont begrudge anyone that did. To each their own....the only consistant thing in life is constant change......
If you are good at marketing there is certinaly oppertunity in selling retail...value added makes alot of sense..but increasing production for the bulk market mighf not be ths best idea at the moment in my opinion....

[Parker]

BAP......i have not expanded in years although i could have doubled my tap cout eaisley...im not complaining about prices at all..i just see where they are headed in the bulk market.i just would hate to see folks making an investment that wont pay off..i remember my mind set when i was 30...and im sure there are folks like i was then wondering about investing their futcher in producing for the bulk market.....thinking about taking the chance and rolling the dice...by god im gonna work harder than the next guy and make it!!! Come on man.......if you retail value added and have your own markets thats great.....all im saying,,and what i dont hear folks motivated by expanding the tap count for whatever reason saying is ,,,,getting a return on your investment might be tricky if you sell bulk.......

[wdchuck]

I'll stick my neck out here and say that I lean more towards Parkers viewpoint at this time. I fully understand how the exchange rate works, but you cant just keep adding taps without the current market scenario kicking in sooner or later. ...On the bulk issue, would Bascom's use Butternut's cutting producers off as a reason to buy cheap? **** right! Bruce aint no fool........And on the retail end, which is where I am most influenced in my "race to the bottom" theory, take a look at Craigslist- There are a few folks who have been selling at $35/gallon. Lately, I've found ads where people are matching them, and one even popped up beating $35. How low can we go?

[Stanbridge]

I am a Canadian/US citizen living in Quebec a few miles north of the VT border. I recently lost out on a bid to purchase a 20000+ tap piece of land in VT. I'm still looking. The land market is slow to react to the recent drop in bulk prices. As the canadian dollar drops (along with the US bulk prices), it would make sense that sugaring land prices would also drop, as the value of sugaring land should be based on its ability to generate profit. Well, it's not happening yet, prices for land are still sky high, and my purchasing power is sinking along with the canadian dollar. With land prices so hig and bulk prices so low, I just don't see profitability in start-up operations. Something has gotta give at some point. Yet, people are still selling high as people are still blindly paying top-dollar to start sugaring projects that will take a long time to become profitable.

[DrTimPerkins]

As the canadian dollar drops (along with the US bulk prices), it would make sense that sugaring land prices would also drop, as the value of sugaring land should be based on its ability to generate profit.

This is true only if the producer is bulking most or all of their syrup. If they have their own retail or wholesale markets, and/or are very efficient in their operation and still able to turn a decent profit at current (or lower) prices, the land value isn't going to necessarily drop. At the very least there will be considerable lag time between bulk price drop and land price drop (if that ever happens). This is even more the case if the land has other possible value for timber generation or building houses.

[Stanbridge]

This is true only if the producer is bulking most or all of their syrup. If they have their own retail or wholesale markets, and/or are very efficient in their operation and still able to turn a decent profit at current (or lower) prices, the land value isn't going to necessarily drop. At the very least there will be considerable lag time between bulk price drop and land price drop (if that ever happens). This is even more the case if the land has other possible value for timber generation or building houses.

This is a good point if running an operation with a few thousand taps. But with operations in the tens of thousands of taps, it is quite difficult to get a large percentage of retail sales unless someone wants to spend substantial amounts of time marketing/selling their products. The sugarer who manages to retail the crop of 20000+ taps well deserves the higher retail prices, as they will most likely need to hire an additional salaried employee just for sales. 20000 taps sold retail will gross much more income, but not sure about the profit margins at the end.

[maple flats]

The price today at Countryside Hardware in DeRuyter NY (they will only be buying 2 more mornings, Tomorrow and Sat, 8-1 Friday and 8-noon Sat.)
Golden $2.20
Amber $2.10
Dark $2.00
Very Dark $1.85
Process$1.25
Ropy or unfilterable$.75
I'm not sure who buys it from Countryside, they are only middlemen.

[markcasper]

What really is hard to understand is how the buyers (packagers) are not dropping their price a little bit as well? I have dropped my retail prices on some sizes slightly, but I never raised them sky high 6-8 years ago either, like alot of big wigs did. I see people throwing in the towel, but I think its going to be long and drawn out.

I am used to getting screwed most of the time in regard to farm prices. (There have been a few good years). And what buyers are docking $$$$$ the farmer for now, has grown to a level unseen ever before. I grew up a dairy farmer, and though we have joined the ranks of empty barns, sugaring may go the way of it as well and just be a few BIGTIME operators or backyarders exclusively. I stand on my porch and can visually see and count 10 farms that were milking cows commercially 20 years ago, now there is 1 left and he had cancer and is plus 60. The dairy farms that have grown to monstrous size have only been able to do this because of #1, cheap labor - illegal aliens allowed to live and work on these farms and not be deported. These farmers have broken the law, and continue to do so in order to produce more milk, and now look what has happened there.

Because of being able to retail syrup (at least yet), and not being able to retail milk, things may not get that extreme, but it wouldn't surprise me. On the other hand, as Parker said, the amount of expansion has been unprecedented. I used to be the only commerical operator 20 years ago and the next one was 5 miles away. Now there is probably 20,000 new taps within a 10 mile circle that were never here before in the history of the earth. Of course the prices will go down. Everybody is a professional now, except when it comes to marketing though it seems.

[spud]

What really is hard to understand is how the buyers (packagers) are not dropping their price a little bit as well? I have dropped my retail prices on some sizes slightly, but I never raised them sky high 6-8 years ago either, like alot of big wigs did. I see people throwing in the towel, but I think its going to be long and drawn out.

I am used to getting screwed most of the time in regard to farm prices. (There have been a few good years). And what buyers are docking $$$$$ the farmer for now, has grown to a level unseen ever before. I grew up a dairy farmer, and though we have joined the ranks of empty barns, sugaring may go the way of it as well and just be a few BIGTIME operators or backyarders exclusively. I stand on my porch and can visually see and count 10 farms that were milking cows commercially 20 years ago, now there is 1 left and he had cancer and is plus 60. The dairy farms that have grown to monstrous size have only been able to do this because of #1, cheap labor - illegal aliens allowed to live and work on these farms and not be deported. These farmers have broken the law, and continue to do so in order to produce more milk, and now look what has happened there.

Because of being able to retail syrup (at least yet), and not being able to retail milk, things may not get that extreme, but it wouldn't surprise me. On the other hand, as Parker said, the amount of expansion has been unprecedented. I used to be the only commerical operator 20 years ago and the next one was 5 miles away. Now there is probably 20,000 new taps within a 10 mile circle that were never here before in the history of the earth. Of course the prices will go down. Everybody is a professional now, except when it comes to marketing though it seems.

I think Parker is dead on with his price predictions. I too feel we will see $1.50LB in the next few years. Yes we will see maple sales world wide grow but it's only because it is becoming more affordable. To become more affordable is to drop the bulk price.

Mark you are spot on with the dairy industry. Not only do most of the farms have illegal immigrants making very little wages it gets worse then that. The farms are driving unregistered trucks on the road that are also not inspected. A friend of mine works for a fertilizer company and he said most farmers do not pay for their fertilizer. The government (we the people buy it for them). And lets not forget about all the pot being grown in the corn fields (sometimes by the farmers ). It's kinda hard to feel bad for the farmer making $11-15 a hundred on his milk when he might be the biggest Welfare case in town.

Spud

[S.S.S]

What government program pays for farmers fertilizer? We use a lot of fertilizer in our 2600 acres and have yet to get it free or heard of anybody getting it for free.

[markcasper]

A friend of mine works for a fertilizer company and he said most farmers do not pay for their fertilizer. The government (we the people buy it for them). And lets not forget about all the pot being grown in the corn fields (sometimes by the farmers ). It's kinda hard to feel bad for the farmer making $11-15 a hundred on his milk when he might be the biggest Welfare case in town.

Spud

I do not know of any farmer NOT paying for fertilizer, nor do I know any growing pot in the cornfield. What I do know the government paying for is 1/2 of their crop insurance if they choose to have it, and that is a racket in and of itself. There is also government payments for growing grain and up until recently government subsidized ethanol which kind of kept a floor under grain prices.The dairy farmer actually doesn't receive any direct payments for their milk currently, other than another form of insurance you can take that is subsidized, but if it gets that low priced you may as well quit anyway. This does not include the large amount of grant money.
On the contrary, the illegal worker situation on these dairy farms is nothing short of breaking the law and nobody seems to care. 40-70 percent (depending on the source) of the work on dairies is done by illegals. It has ended up in our state to be nothing much left other than big mega dairies with hundreds and thousands of cows. These guys have capitalized on the cheap labor. Corn and soybeans have replaced the dairy ground that used to grow quantities of alfalfa and hay which kept the soil erosion to a minimum. Now its absolutely catastrophic to see all this dirt washing away every year.

[chrislanfear]

You guys ever heard the phrase " don't complain about farmers with your mouth full"? Yes farmers get some subsidies. Some farmers take them some don't. We never had illegals on our farm. But nowadays there the only people who will work. Most kids nowadays don't have a clue what using elbow grease means. And yes I haven't made many posts on here so feel free to take me to task about that as well.

[spud]

There is only a little complaining about farmers. There is more about government programs though. When I was farming in Alaska we paid for all the fertilizer on our land. I was surprised to hear farmers here in my area getting free fertilizer. I don't know any of the details other then I have a friend that works for a fertilizer company and he say's the farmer's in our area get free fertilizer. As far as the Illegal immigrants on many of the farms they should be kicked out or giving work Visas. They may be great workers but there illegal. No government subsidies should be giving to farmers that employ Illegal immigrant ( they are breaking the law) . We should not turn a blind eye to it. We should not break the law to better our own financial needs. There are plenty of Americans that would work on farms but they would not do it for $5 an hour. The price of milk in the store would have to go up. I'm just sharing my opinion and yes I did vote for Trump.:lol:

Spud

[PerryFamily]

Marketing marketing marketing
I think that's the key. Let's stop funding research ( sorry Dr Tim, just my opinion)) on how to get more sap, boil efficiently and what not as we pretty much already know how to do these now, and put those funds towards Marketing! I think here in VT the Term "Made in Vermont" means a lot and sells product very well. We need to work on selling the syrup we have on hand as well as in the future. Whether your a hobbyist or large producer we all will benefit from better marketing.

As far as illegals I live amongst several large dairy farms as well as orchards and veggie farms. All of these farms have immigrant help. Some I'm sure are illegal, but many are absolutely legal. In fact they get many of the same ones year after year. It's all through a government program with guidelines on pay and housing and I'm sure other things. I guess my point is there's ways to do things legally and then there's the illegal way. It's a choice

[AdirondackSap]

I worked for a stone quarry granted its not a dairy farm. But this quarry (champlain stone) laid off all the Americans workers and kept all the immigrants mostly Guatamalans ans said because they spent money bringing them over and getting work visas for them that they had to kuch invested in the immigrants that they couldnt fire them or send them home so us Americans had to get laid off. How bull**** is that and the Democrats always say we need them they fo the work nobody else wants to do. That is the biggest lie in the world. If you pay a livible wage watch there be a line out the door for workers but who can raise a family on 8$ an hour. Go Trump send them all back

[n8hutch]

I worked for a stone quarry granted its not a dairy farm. But this quarry (champlain stone) laid off all the Americans workers and kept all the immigrants mostly Guatamalans ans said because they spent money bringing them over and getting work visas for them that they had to kuch invested in the immigrants that they couldnt fire them or send them home so us Americans had to get laid off. How bull**** is that and the Democrats always say we need them they fo the work nobody else wants to do. That is the biggest lie in the world. If you pay a livible wage watch there be a line out the door for workers but who can raise a family on 8$ an hour. Go Trump send them all back

Way off topic but what the he'll I'll bite on this one.

These things happen all the time, my sister works for a ski mountain, does most of the hiring, they fly her to South America to recruit workers, they claim people in town aren't interested in there jobs. But I think they are not just interested in the minimum wage pay.

Also these corporations save tens of thousands on payroll taxes, 1 because of lower wages and 2 because these migrant visa workers are not in the social security medicare system so the corporation pays a lower rate. What a scam, or govt basically encourages this behavior.

These workers bunk up in a 3 bedroom apartment maybe as Many as a dozen per unit and save every nickel they can and send it back to South America. Sure enough they are using it to pay for their college education. Thenot our well educated fresh out of college March in the cities and what their students loans forgiven. What a joke, but the joke is on us.

As far as Farmers go i don't blame them, its really hard to say no when someone offers you a grant,or offers to pay you to plant a corn field "just incase" heck it's hard to say no to alot of things. Gets harder every day , especially when you see other folks taking advantage and there seems to be no end in sight.

[DrTimPerkins]

Let's stop funding research ( sorry Dr Tim, just my opinion)) on how to get more sap, ....

Wow....I'll just say that I'd written a response for the last 30 min before Internet Explorer crashed and I lost it all. That may be for the best. The short and slightly more sanitized version is below.....

The maple industry actually funds a very tiny amount of what we do at PMRC. Most of our funding is self-generated from grants. If you wish to dictate what we do, put your $ where your mouth is. Unlikely to happen, since the contributions to the NAMSC fund have been flat since it started in 1990, yet over that time the size of the U.S. crop has quadrupled and the value of the crop has risen nearly 10-fold. While we are grateful for what we do receive in gifts and grants as it demonstrates interest in our work, it only amounts to about $0.0003 per $ of U.S. maple crop value (which is down from $0.0013 in 1990) for the entire U.S. maple industry grant program. Keep in mind that PMRC doesn't get all of that....it is awarded competitively by NAMSC to proposals deemed worthy of funding. We tend not to even apply every year. Now compare that to what producers pay in charges in Quebec (which are increasing significantly this year) for research if you want to understand the issue better.

Many people seem to think that VMSMA or the State of Vermont funds PMRC. Other than some modest donations periodically from VMSMA and an occasional small (competitive) grant from the State, the bulk of our funding is generated by our own efforts through competitive grants from Federally-funded agencies. We bring the money to the table, and we CHOOSE to spend it studying issues that producers tell us they are interested in. It would be just as easy (probably easier in fact) to just do basic research on the biology/ecology of sugar maple and hardly interact with the maple industry at all and to write papers for scientific journals and attend scientific meetings instead of going to maple meetings. You may think it impossible, but it has been done that way in the past occasionally depending upon who the Director is (and who knows what future Directors will choose to do).

If you're looking for a boogeyman, you need look no further than the Canadian/U.S. exchange rate. It is by far the biggest contributor to the drop in U.S. syrup values. The additional factor of recent note include the Federation plan to regain/hold market share (which they spent a good deal of time and money researching), and which they've only begun to implement. They are being very much helped by the exchange rate, and by the two back-to-back record crops (2016 & 2017) in Quebec. Did anyone really expect they were going to just absorb the losses passively?

In terms of marketing, the larger issue for most food industries is stable supply and stable prices over time. The shortages of 2007/2008 due to low production caused huge losses in the food ingredient market. They simply couldn't absorb the huge price spikes and unavailability of syrup, so they reformulated their products and removed maple syrup (or cut way back). Our response (because it was what the industry asked for) was to develop methods to increase and stabilize production. Our efforts have led to the average yield of production almost doubling in the past 10 years, and now people are complaining about that (note that they aren't complaining that they are making more, just that their neighbors are making more). Our efforts have made producers and packers and equipment dealers a good deal of money over the past 10 yrs......You're welcome!

We have asked many people in the industry what is needed in terms of marketing research. For as many people as we ask, we get different answers. There is little or no consensus on what is needed, except for "marketing." We can't do much without some concrete direction that at least a core group of producers/packers can agree to. Therefore we've chosen not to do much in that area UNTIL some agreement on what is needed is clearly articulated.

[hookhill]

Lets not aggravate Dr. Tim. His contribution to this forum and the maple industry is beneficial to us all. In regards to bulk prices, is it reasonable to say that all it would take is syrup to catch on in some unknown market in a unknown location and then all of a sudden the price is back up? I just have an instinctive idea that maple syrup in a world view is still in its infancy. The industry just needs to get it out there. Everybody in the world knows what milk is and what can be done with it. Maple syrup? My son goes to college in Virginia and many of his semi-educated friends never heard of it. Hold tight friends, it may be a race to the bottom, or then again it could be a race to the top.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Lets not aggravate Dr. Tim. His contribution to this forum and the maple industry is beneficial to us all.

And so do/are many others on here all of whom are entitled to their opinions whether it aggravates someone or not.....as long as people are civil about it. This thread is what I would consider a good debate with some good info.

[CBOYER]

Just for a remember to all of you, some info about how the Fed works: when a Qc producer is paid by the Fed, a $0.14 fee per pound is take for marketing, opening of new markets etc. Some producer doesnt had be paid for syrup over-produced up to 5 years ago. If we make a comparaison, $2.94 less $0.14, $2.80, ex. rate 0.73 = US$2.04/pound, paid at 75% first year, up to 3 years for the balance, up to 5-7 years for over quotas.

If you dont had a Quota (like me), you could only sell retail at the farm, in less than 5 liters container, only for buyer home consomation. Federation buy only barrels, 30-50 gal. so you cannot produced 5, 15 gal bulk...

A lot of Qc Syrup go to Usa, but a good part of it is packed or transform and export around the world after.

[CBOYER]

And please, do not complain about research.., at least UVM give you back all studies, Centre Acer is using a part of the $0.14 paid by the producers, received grant from MapaQ (Gov.), and sometimes give reports only to big equipments producers. Very difficult to had information from them, i used to run a french Forum like here in Qc, for 5 years, try many times to had someone from Centre Acer to participate, and they never will. For them they had a job in research, not a profession.

[DrTimPerkins]

And so do/are many others on here all of whom are entitled to their opinions whether it aggravates someone or not.....as long as people are civil about it. This thread is what I would consider a good debate with some good info.

I have absolutely no problem with a good debate, and don't mind in the least being occasionally aggravated, but at the very least we need to get the facts straight. The statements in dispute are: 1) that our research hasn't benefitted producers tremendously over the past decade, 2) that the maple industry has funded the bulk of this research (and should stop doing so), and 3) that the current reduced price of syrup is due primarily to overproduction. I don't believe any of those statements are true, and there is plenty of evidence showing that these facts are wrong.

[Parker]

In the end the answer has to be to open more markets and create more demand to keep pace with increased production...dr.tim,,can you folks work on that end (like diffrent stuff you can do with syrup i.e ingrediants for diffrent products) or are you only in the woods folks? I have no idea....i myself have been constantly thinking about this over the last year and have come up with a couple ideas and will be going to the incubator kitchen in hardwick vt later this month to try to refine them and talk production and marketing with the ppl. There....if a logger can come up with ideas so can you...
And guys,, i value and appricate everyons views and unique prespectives here.wher ealse can you get this kind of insight? Lets try to be nice...there is a million diffrent ways to say the same thing that will get a million diffrent responses.......its easy to be frustrated with the current situation......its alot better to try to work to change it for the better for all of us....

And dr.tim, you should not really take what perry said as an insult but as a high complement,,,shows you are pretty good at what you do.....

[DrTimPerkins]

In the end the answer has to be to open more markets and create more demand to keep pace with increased production...dr.tim,,can you folks work on that end (like diffrent stuff you can do with syrup i.e ingrediants for diffrent products) or are you only in the woods folks? ....

And dr.tim, you should not really take what perry said as an insult but as a high complement,,,shows you are pretty good at what you do.....

I agree that markets need to expand to meet production, basically the same way production had to expand to meet markets. It is a fine balancing act, and the only real controls are supply and demand. Sometimes one outpaces the other and there is a re-balancing that occurs. Our work in the past decade was aimed primarily on the production side because that is where producers told us they wanted us to focus.

Yes, we can shift our focus to different areas, however there are some issues with that. The first is what exactly do people mean when they say "marketing." You obviously mean product development. Others want to seek out niche markets (bourbon syrup, infused syrups, other value-added products, etc.). Other folks want more ingredient markets. Some people want small retail marketing ideas. Others want research on large mass-markets in competition with artificial syrup. There is a huge diversity of directions to go in, but no real consensus on what direction is most important and should be worked on. Secondly, (of course) funding. It is one thing for people to say "do this", it is quite another to come up with the money to make it happen. Unless the industry actually ponies up some real money, it still takes time to do. Grants usually take 2-3 years before you can even START to do the work. First there is idea formulation, then preliminary data to support applying for funds, then apply for funds (if the idea matches some agency funding priorities). Typically it is rejected the first year. If you're lucky it is funded the second-time around (if not you start over again with a different idea). Then it takes 6-months for the funds to arrive. THEN you can start the work. After that, it may take 2-3 years to generate some useful information and start talking about it. So the entire process takes 3-6 years from start-to-finish. Often the original issue has disappeared by the time the original work is done and disseminated.

Lastly, I don't take it as an insult, however several people seem to think that the "maple industry" or State of Vermont pays for everything we do, and therefore they should have be able to tell us what to do and we should just jump right on that. This is most certainly is not the case. We work very hard to find funding to do the research, and relatively little is actually contributed by the maple industry. Even that small amount has been dropping steadily since 1990. That is why there are very few maple researchers or maple Extension people in many states now. The maple industry (in the U.S.....in Quebec you don't have a choice, the money is taken out before you get paid) has just not supported the work. Scientists and extension-folk are basically forced to go where the $ are. If they aren't there, neither are they. It generally isn't by our choice alone. Administrators are constantly assessing folks in our line of work by the number of publications (mainly the scientific journals, the Maple Digest and Maple News don't count for us) and by the amount of grant $ we bring in. If you're not producing those, chances are those positions will disappear over time. As the saying goes, if you think the work is valuable, "show me the money." Can't really say it any clearer than that.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Understood Dr. Tim and thank you for your reply explaining where your funds do come from. I had no idea and now I do.......learned something today and that's always a good thing. I don't know enough about the industry to speak intelligently on the prices, oversupply or what packers do. But I do believe that getting the product out to more parts of this country is needed. Case in point is a guy I know who went down to Florida with a truck full of syrup and thought he would make a killing. Guess what....no one really knew or understood what he was selling and didn't do a **** thing. Another friend of a friend goes to California every year and sells everything he brings at a high profit. Works out great cause he spends the summer with his kids too.
It's easy to say "marketing" is needed but that doesn't amount to anything. For a marketing campaign to be successful, guess what is needed- MORE RESEARCH FIRST. This is what I believe the good Dr. was getting at. But why would PMRC, CDL or anyone do that without some clear direction or at the very least some goals to measure success/failure. Seems there is no consensus yet on what that should be.

[n8hutch]

I still remember the "Beef it's what's for dinner" and the "Real" dairy campaigns from when I was a kid, Maple needs something like that. Obviously media is so different now theneed it was in the late 80s early 90s. But I don't think Maple is Branded all that well, I'm sure there are people working on it. Even Honey is way ahead in my opinion.

[markcasper]

You guys ever heard the phrase " don't complain about farmers with your mouth full"? Yes farmers get some subsidies. Some farmers take them some don't. We never had illegals on our farm. But nowadays there the only people who will work. Most kids nowadays don't have a clue what using elbow grease means. And yes I haven't made many posts on here so feel free to take me to task about that as well.

Yes, this is off topic, but you belong to the Farm Bureau, correct? What part of illegal do you not understand?
People will work with an empty belly! I am a farmer and used to belong to the Farm Bureau. Its not just about the illegals being allowed here, its about the government paying people to not work. Their not going to work for $10 an hour when they can get on a program, do nothing and make $15. I personally know of several situations where this is going on. My father and brother have taken government subsidies, its hard not to as others have said. At some point though, the whole thing will likely collapse.

[PerryFamily]

I still remember the "Beef it's what's for dinner" and the "Real" dairy campaigns from when I was a kid, Maple needs something like that. Obviously media is so different now theneed it was in the late 80s early 90s. But I don't think Maple is Branded all that well, I'm sure there are people working on it. Even Honey is way ahead in my opinion.

I do as well and this is the type of things I'm talking about when I say "Marketing".

Dr Tim I never meant to say that the research that proctor does has not tremendously effected the industry. What I meant was how many times can you study the fact that to make more sap you need high vacuum on tight tubing with sterile spouts.....we know this. Or that RO does not effect syrup taste... that type of thing. I just feel like we , as in the entire industry, need to put as much effort into "marketing" as we do research thats all. I had no intention of singling Dr Tim out by that comment that was a " look out Dr Tim you are not going to agree with me here...." I apologize if you took that personally as it was not my intention.

I have always believed to Stand up for what you believe in even if your standing alone. I'm pretty used to being alone lol

[Moser's Maple]

https://youtu.be/Y3-wKeLKwqo

[noreast maple]

I do as well and this is the type of things I'm talking about when I say "Marketing".

Dr Tim I never meant to say that the research that proctor does has not tremendously effected the industry. What I meant was how many times can you study the fact that to make more sap you need high vacuum on tight tubing with sterile spouts.....we know this. Or that RO does not effect syrup taste... that type of thing. I just feel like we , as in the entire industry, need to put as much effort into "marketing" as we do research thats all. I had no intention of singling Dr Tim out by that comment that was a " look out Dr Tim you are not going to agree with me here...." I apologize if you took that personally as it was not my intention.

I have always believed to Stand up for what you believe in even if your standing alone. I'm pretty used to being alone lol I personaly dont think that pmrc shouldstop reserching the things that they work on now . you need production, they are helping us all in that area, you need maketing, that should come from our maple orginations or maybea private maketing co. not science. in order to do that we would all have to chip in whether in some priceper containers or price per tap.

[Drew Pond Maple]

in order to do that we would all have to chip in whether in some priceper containers or price per tap.probably not a bad idea. A few dollars from thousands of producers every year could go a long way. Might be beneficial to everyone in the long run

[Potters3]

I agree with some of this very long thread. UVM/ Dr Tim have help the industry a lot and a lot of us on here as well. Thank You
With the currrent increases in production THE BULK PRICE WILL GO DOWN. We are all part of the problem, adding taps, higher vac, better spouts. But WE ALL CAN BE PART OF THE ANSWER, promote Maple any chance you get, give samples to people who haven't had it. I have sold 6 gallons at work to people who had never had it or hadn't had it since they were kids.
My wife and I have grown our jugged market from 15 to 25 gallons a year to with any luck 500 gallons this year selling jugged syrup, candy, maple sugar, with a average price of $45.00/ gallon after expenses (not Labor). It takes work and time. But grow your own market i.e sugar, cream , syrup, bbq sauce, spice rubs, jelly, candy, candles, maple water, soda. Come up with something new to us Maple in corner the market and make $100/ gallon.
The packers only have you on low price if you are selling syrup to them, I still do but each year it is a little less then the year before.

[hookhill]

Marketing is the answer. That being said, us sugar farmers did not get into this business for the marketing. Lying awake at night I don't dream of marketing schemes. I dream of a better mouse trap for the sugaring operation. Selling retail is a real pain in the ***. Some customers require 15 emails back and forth and then finally its, "Ok we will take a quart. What I would really like to do is find a way to sell bulk in containers. Say 500 half gallon jugs. That way you get a bit better than the bulk rate. In the end we are not going to let the 1.77/lb scare us. We have always bought used, built our own infrastructure and paid for things with cash. The way I look at it, if we make 1000 gallons a season, pay for sap and other expenses it is still a 10k profit. That might seem like chump change to some but for part time work it is tolerable for us.

[wiam]

I agree with some of this very long thread. UVM/ Dr Tim have help the industry a lot and a lot of us on here as well. Thank You
With the currrent increases in production THE BULK PRICE WILL GO DOWN. We are all part of the problem, adding taps, higher vac, better spouts. But WE ALL CAN BE PART OF THE ANSWER, promote Maple any chance you get, give samples to people who haven't had it. I have sold 6 gallons at work to people who had never had it or hadn't had it since they were kids.
My wife and I have grown our jugged market from 15 to 25 gallons a year to with any luck 500 gallons this year selling jugged syrup, candy, maple sugar, with a average price of $45.00/ gallon after expenses (not Labor). It takes work and time. But grow your own market i.e sugar, cream , syrup, bbq sauce, spice rubs, jelly, candy, candles, maple water, soda. Come up with something new to us Maple in corner the market and make $100/ gallon.
The packers only have you on low price if you are selling syrup to them, I still do but each year it is a little less then the year before.

In VT if it is not pure maple you're supposed to have a commercial kitchen. There is a $ threshold you have to be Under to be exempt.

[Potters3]

n VT if it is not pure maple you're supposed to have a commercial kitchen. There is a $ threshold you have to be Under to be exempt.
William

Yes, we stick to jugged syrup mainly, with soft candy mainly around christmas and some sugar. I am going to start to look into a kitchen heard there is 1 in Hardwick you can us / rent. My wife has come up with some very good recipes using maple. Time to try to make some small batches to sell and see what we can do. If anyone on here has used it PM me the details please.

Someone else had mention selling retail is a pain, and YES it can be, some are rude, some are time consuming, but some are great to deal with, what sugarmakers hates hearing "that is the best syrup I have ever tasted"

[Hop Kiln Road]

In January I had a long conversation with a Federation Director. He had their graphs showing how the "Strategic Reserve" (note the language) had stabilize the bulk price. I had added a curve with the $C converted to $US. The two curves are entirely different. Since the Federation sets their annual bulk price prior to the crop, and with knowledge of the current exchange rate, I said, you're manipulating the market. After a discussion of the additional effect of the Loonie being a petro dollar, he said, of course we are. Why wouldn't we? And, we're going to add 5 million taps.

Technology will always rule commodities: fracking, hybrid seeds, reverse osmosis. The good news is money is pouring into maple. Why? There is too much money floating around. The potential market growth for maple is well above average and the supply can be easily increased at a decreasing unit cost, which also conveniently knocks out the lower end of the supply side. A rising tide...also allows bigger boats into the harbor.

As Tim Perkins alludes, marketing is also a science. However, don't go to the expense of developing a market unless you can service it at the lowest cost or have some form of protection, what has been known for centuries as a moat.

[markcasper]

Interesting to see who will win and who will lose......in the equipment world. The 2017 special is "blowout pricing" on equipment purchased now. And things like "lowest price guarantee" are things that I have never heard of in 34 years of syrup making.

[blissville maples]

Pmrc is doing very little educating for the medium to larger scale producer..not telling these folks much we don't already know, or what's obvious from observations..... making syrup is mainly effort with a little science, anyone can make syrup, it takes science to do it efficiently and make lighter color. CDL and leader will educate one on how to be make more syrup that's their line business and it generates equipment sales. Like one post said how many seminar about vacuum and sanitation does one need,. Now we have this great market and spent the last 5-10 years doing so for what?? It's all going to come crashing down(for most) obviously what's killing the maple industry is overproduction, but it will fix itself to the misfortune of some of these larger scale too much overhead producers......I'll bet the federation takes in .15 per lb and spends far less on marketing. They taking money to market syrup while capping quotas limiting production!! Unreal.. dont let the Democrats see that it will happen here in America!!!!

[BAP]

The research that is done at PMRC is beneficial to any size producer if they choose to have an open mind and want to learn. A lot of advances have been made by research done by the researchers at places like PMRC, Cornell and others. Don't blame them for not developing markets, that is not there field. Leave the politics out of the discussion because all parties in this country are to blame not just one.

[Super Sapper]

Where do you think the equipment manufacturers get the knowledge to help teach the producers? The more efficient producers are the ones that will survive and that is a direct result of the research done by Dr. Tim and others. 20 years ago the smaller less efficient dairy farms claimed that the large farms would never make it here in Wisconsin but now all you seem to see is the large herd dairies.

[Brian]

The bigger you are the cheaper it is to make, the faster you can make it, and the more money they can make. If you have say 4000 taps, if you go to 6000 taps it doesn't cost a lot more to process 2000 more taps because you already have the equipment. It will be a little more time. The small guy would have to buy all different equipment and the cost to up grade will hurt them. I think someday it will be just like the farmers, we will haul our sap to a place where they will process it because we won't be able to afford to do it all and own all the equipment that will be needed.

[markcasper]

20 years ago the smaller less efficient dairy farms claimed that the large farms would never make it here in Wisconsin but now all you seem to see is the large herd dairies.
Theres a thing called "crony capitalism" that has helped these big dairy farms get to the size that they are. The biggest reason that these farms have been able to flourish is because of the illegal aliens that they hire. They break the law and our government lets it all happen. In the 1980's our government had a program called the "dairy herd buyout". It set the ball rolling already back then.
Granted, there are many aspects of having a big dairy operation that are no doubt more efficient, but it comes at an expense. An expense that we will all pay for down the road. Most of these smaller dairy farms that used to be reasonable in size (40-80 cows), had hay and alfalfa growing on the land which kept the soil in place. There was an even distribution throughout the state. It all has been replaced with soil eroding corn and beans. As well, none of these farms broke the law and had aliens working them, family members did all the work.
It is true, the big farms would never have made it, but 20-30 years ago who knew they would be ran by non-citizens?

[BAP]

Theres a thing called "crony capitalism" that has helped these big dairy farms get to the size that they are. The biggest reason that these farms have been able to flourish is because of the illegal aliens that they hire. They break the law and our government lets it all happen. In the 1980's our government had a program called the "dairy herd buyout". It set the ball rolling already back then.
Granted, there are many aspects of having a big dairy operation that are no doubt more efficient, but it comes at an expense. An expense that we will all pay for down the road. Most of these smaller dairy farms that used to be reasonable in size (40-80 cows), had hay and alfalfa growing on the land which kept the soil in place. There was an even distribution throughout the state. It all has been replaced with soil eroding corn and beans. As well, none of these farms broke the law and had aliens working them, family members did all the work.
It is true, the big farms would never have made it, but 20-30 years ago who knew they would be ran by non-citizens?
This has nothing to do with Maple Syrup or it's price. It's an argument for a completely different forum.

[maple maniac65]

This has nothing to do with Maple Syrup or it's price. It's an argument for a completely different forum.



Le agradezco toda sure ayuda

[southfork]

On this topic, the real problem is that Americans are paid, entitled, and government incentivized not to do this type of manual labor. Along with the entitlement society comes a decline in the American work ethic. Why do manual work for 12 dollars an hour when other tax payers will take care of you?

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

On this topic, the real problem is that Americans are paid, entitled, and government incentivized not to do this type of manual labor. Along with the entitlement society comes a decline in the American work ethic. Why do manual work for 12 dollars an hour when other tax payers will take care of you?
Exactly. You hit the nail on the head with that statement.'

[hookhill]

Anything we have tried that involves making money off the land has been marginal. Turkeys, veggies, beef, firewood............Sugaring was one of the those things that you could at least make a days pay. With the current prices even sugaring is getting iffy. After all these years of trying different farming schemes we have determined that the best meat you raise, or best veggies, firewood, syrup etc. is what you use yourself. As soon as you try making money off of it that is when the fun runs out. It ends up being a enormous amount of work and capital investment. We have ramped up our operation in 15 years from kitchen pans on bricks to RO machines and I would not be sad to start going back the other way.

[Parker]

Well its not an easy way to make a living, but, for me it is something i love to do. There is oppertunity in anything if you hustel..sure the bulk price is dropping and pumping out bbls might not be a great long term plan especially if you have a huge start up cost (come on man think about it a little) but, if you can find an angle, a nich,,a unexploited market....yah it takes alot of time and effort but,,,we have to deal with whats comming down the road.....what baffels me is the "enlightened ones" in the sugaring world saying u,s syrup production has nothing to do with the price,,,really???,,call up ANY PACKER right now and tell them you have a tractor trailer load of syrup you want to move this week and you need a check for it right off,,,,,,and,,,,,folks saying there is profit to be made on the bulk market in the long term if you get more efficiant(spend more money chasing that maple rainbow),,,isnt that what we were told with milk?? Come on man,,,who really believes that....no offensens to anyone,,i just have a hard time with those statements,,,
Its all about cost bennifit ratio....seeing the frenchmen on the golden road running rigs out of the 80s and paying $1.50 a tap rent was a great eyeopener...

I really hope i am wrong about the price and next year we get $4 a pound...but,,im not banking on it,,,

[AirDave]

Well its not an easy way to make a living, but, for me it is something i love to do. There is oppertunity in anything if you hustel..sure the bulk price is dropping and pumping out bbls might not be a great long term plan especially if you have a huge start up cost (come on man think about it a little) but, if you can find an angle, a nich,,a unexploited market....yah it takes alot of time and effort but,,,we have to deal with whats comming down the road.....what baffels me is the "enlightened ones" in the sugaring world saying u,s syrup production has nothing to do with the price,,,really???,,call up ANY PACKER right now and tell them you have a tractor trailer load of syrup you want to move this week and you need a check for it right off,,,,,,and,,,,,folks saying there is profit to be made on the bulk market in the long term if you get more efficiant(spend more money chasing that maple rainbow),,,isnt that what we were told with milk?? Come on man,,,who really believes that....no offensens to anyone,,i just have a hard time with those statements,,,
Its all about cost bennifit ratio....seeing the frenchmen on the golden road running rigs out of the 80s and paying $1.50 a tap rent was a great eyeopener...

I really hope i am wrong about the price and next year we get $4 a pound...but,,im not banking on it,,,

I really think you nail it. In agriculture, where there is too much profit, the market always adjust itself by increasing production and... causing a price decrease. I'm from Quebec running a small sugar shack just for the fun of it. Even with the price here (I'm selling my syrup for 55$ for 8x540 ml cans), I do not make any profit. I'm just over equipped (too much stainless!)

As some already knows, bulk prices have been pretty stable this side of the border for the last 5 years, even with the last two large crops. But yes, producers are not paid in full (95% last year) and the have to paid a levy (0,14 $/lb)... but average price paid was 2,90 $/lb. A large part of the levy goes for marketing... to increase maple syrup sales.

Bulk syrup price in the US are down only because of the exchange rate. Retail prices are down mostly because of over production in the last 2 years IMO.

[AirDave]

Pmrc is doing very little educating for the medium to larger scale producer..not telling these folks much we don't already know, or what's obvious from observations..... making syrup is mainly effort with a little science, anyone can make syrup, it takes science to do it efficiently and make lighter color. CDL and leader will educate one on how to be make more syrup that's their line business and it generates equipment sales. Like one post said how many seminar about vacuum and sanitation does one need,. Now we have this great market and spent the last 5-10 years doing so for what?? It's all going to come crashing down(for most) obviously what's killing the maple industry is overproduction, but it will fix itself to the misfortune of some of these larger scale too much overhead producers......I'll bet the federation takes in .15 per lb and spends far less on marketing. They taking money to market syrup while capping quotas limiting production!! Unreal.. dont let the Democrats see that it will happen here in America!!!!

Being from Quebec, it doesn't look unreal spending money to increase sales (5-7% /year) while maintaining the bulk price to 2,90 $/lb. Looking at the USDA maple syrup production numbers for the US, what I find unreal is that the US production is still increasing at a steady rate (I'm talking about the number of taps,not yield), while prices are falling like crazy. At what price will producers stop adding taps? Below 2$/lb?

[markcasper]

Looking at the USDA maple syrup production numbers for the US, what I find unreal is that the US production is still increasing at a steady rate (I'm talking about the number of taps,not yield), while prices are falling like crazy. At what price will producers stop adding taps? Below 2$/lb?

I don't know about 2$$, but below 1.50 will probably put the brakes on. Never ceases to amaze me how some will burn up their equity only to keep losing more.

[BAP]

Being from Quebec, it doesn't look unreal spending money to increase sales (5-7% /year) while maintaining the bulk price to 2,90 $/lb. Looking at the USDA maple syrup production numbers for the US, what I find unreal is that the US production is still increasing at a steady rate (I'm talking about the number of taps,not yield), while prices are falling like crazy. At what price will producers stop adding taps? Below 2$/lb?
And Quebec isn't doing anything to drive prices down by adding 5 million taps?

[AirDave]

And Quebec isn't doing anything to drive prices down by adding 5 million taps?

That was necessary to keep up the supply with demand (5%-7%/year). This was allocated before the last two "bumper" crops that no one could have predicted at the time. Last year, the volume of maple syrup that was not wanted by the market (because of the high yields) was set aside in the strategic reserve (20 M lb). Just imagine what would have been the prices if that 20 M lb was left in the market... Both sides of the border would have been hit by a sharp drop in prices and current exchange rate would have made the situation much harder on your side of the border.

As others said earlier in this thread, we all have to work to increase maple syrup sales to keep up with the production. In the long run, it is the only way that every producers will be able to make a living out of it. We are all in the same boat here!

[BAP]

So in other words, it's ok to increase production as long as it is in Canada and not the United States. That's what it sounds like you are saying. If there wasn't a Cartel controlling Syrup in Canada buying it up regardless of a market for it or not, then there wouldn't be the over production because free market would dictate the price and production. Quebec likes to tell everyone how they are helping all Syrup producers everywhere when in reality they are only helping themselves and not allowing free markets to work.

[n8hutch]

Anyone that has spent much time in Quebec knows that a Canadian Dollar doesn't buy you much, our dollars go alot further and that's not saying much, I don't think Canadian Sugar makers are Rolling in the dough at 2.90 lb, you sure don't see as many of them Vacationing down here in the states as you did a few years ago when the dollars were even.

[southfork]

I like the free market system but it does have it's pitfalls. When maple syrup inventories are depressed, the price goes up for consumers and they look to alternative sweeteners. The cartel does help avoid large swings in available inventories and therefore attempts to stabilize the prices consumers pay for maple products in Canada.

I think the headwinds created by the cheap availability of other sweeteners will continue be a limiting factor to potential maple profits. Many producers tend to follow the same cycle as some investors,...... unfortunately many expand when the market and costs are high, and sell or jump out when they are low. Market speculation is always risky.

In any event, tap expansion and production increases only work if they are driven by increased product consumption and need. Expansion without marketing to increase demand is not a sustainable formula. I think for most of us technology has allowed an easy expansion in production, without the necessary drivers to increase domestic consumption at a similar rate. Of course weather and actual production is the wild card.

[markcasper]

I like the free market system but it does have it's pitfalls. When maple syrup inventories are depressed, the price goes up for consumers and they look to alternative sweeteners. The cartel does help avoid large swings in available inventories and therefore attempts to stabilize the prices consumers pay for maple products in Canada.

I think the headwinds created by the cheap availability of other sweeteners will continue be a limiting factor to potential maple profits. Many producers tend to follow the same cycle as some investors,...... unfortunately many expand when the market and costs are high, and sell or jump out when they are low. Market speculation is always risky.

In any event, tap expansion and production increases only work if they are driven by increased product consumption and need. Expansion without marketing to increase demand is not a sustainable formula. I think for most of us technology has allowed an easy expansion in production, without the necessary drivers to increase domestic consumption at a similar rate. Of course weather and actual production is the wild card.
do you work at the federal reserve??