Re Tap Trees with dried up tap holes?

[BSD]

i've heard not to make new tap holes in trees where the tap holes have dried up.

Is there a caveat to that? I monitor my collection and at this point my taps have averaged 6 GPT for the season. we had a long warm spell last week in CT, and now that it should be running hard again it's just trickling down. My lines that were running at 23" of vac are now barely making 12", two lines are at 3" of vac.

If the trees had output 15 - 20 GPT i would be satisfied with the 'don't make new taps' mantra, but what about trees who've dried up early because of the prolonged warm spell. they're still not budded out.

thoughts?

[psparr]

You can try to redrill the same hole, but the effect will be minimal. There you're trees, you can certainly retap them. Just not recommended.

[Cedar Eater]

Two things come to mind.

1) Your assumption that the trees have dried up might be false.

2) It's not nice to fuss with Mother Nature.

[DrTimPerkins]

The reason not to add a new second tap to the tree is that it would be considered overtapping. Trees must compartmentalize the wound and area around the wound to prevent infection from getting in and spreading through the tree. As part of this process, the affected wood is rendered non-functional in terms of moving sap EVER again. The concept of sustainable tapping is to not reduce the amount of functional sapwood by more than the tree can compensate through new growth the following season. If you overtap, you reduce the ability of the tree to move water to the crown to supply the leaves during the summer. The leaves need water for photosynthesis to happen. If you overtap enough, it can affect the growth and health of the tree.

All that said....if you are using conservative tapping guidelines (small spouts, never too many spouts for the size of the tree, tapholes that are not too deep, using the full tapping band of the stem) and retapping them would be a very infrequent thing, then it most likely would not be a problem. Bottom line is that these are your trees (unless you're leasing taps) and you can do whatever you wish....but it is considered bad form and a black eye to other sugarmakers if you use practices that are not sustainable.

[mike103]

Is it possible maybe your trees are frozen from the recent cold snap? Im about the same latitude as you and my trees didn run much today either, hoping they loosen up tommorow....

[BAP]

As cold as it was this weekend, it will take time for the trees to thaw out. They are frozen completely threw after a weekend of being frozen.

[Russell Lampron]

i've heard not to make new tap holes in trees where the tap holes have dried up.

Is there a caveat to that? I monitor my collection and at this point my taps have averaged 6 GPT for the season. we had a long warm spell last week in CT, and now that it should be running hard again it's just trickling down. My lines that were running at 23" of vac are now barely making 12", two lines are at 3" of vac.

If the trees had output 15 - 20 GPT i would be satisfied with the 'don't make new taps' mantra, but what about trees who've dried up early because of the prolonged warm spell. they're still not budded out.

thoughts?

By reading your signature it looks like you are using 3/16" tubing. If you put new taps in the trees your holes are most likely not dry and should start producing again when the trees have a chance to thaw out.

[BSD]

thanks for the insight guys. the impetus of my post was after a mid-day check lines were barely moving. this after a nice cold night and perfect 40 degrees yesterday. However over the weekend it was down to 3-10 degrees both nights. I believe you're all correct in that the trees were still frozen despite strong sunshine filtering through the woods. When i went to collect at 630 last night they were running much better, nothing like they were at the start of the season, but they were moving.

I did drill 3 new test holes on some larger trees that could have possibly supported 2 taps and they were barely moving as well.

[cjf12]

Was wondering the same. What are peoples thoughts on redrilling same hole with a 3/8 bit instead of a 5/16.

[motowbrowne]

Was wondering the same. What are peoples thoughts on redrilling same hole with a 3/8 bit instead of a 5/16.

I've "freshened" tap holes by going up in bit size. They were 7/16 originally, and I don't recall what size we used to ream them. I'd be concerned that a 5/16 tap wouldn't seat in a 3/8 hole.

My experience was that it works, but not very well. Generally they start putting out more sap than before the redrill, but only for a couple days.

If possible, it'd be way better to put fresh taps on fresh trees if you think you've got anything left of the season.

I'm very pleased with the idea that I won't have to do that ever again due to switching to a cheap vacuum setup with new taps every year. It's not easy deciding to go do more damage to the trees that are already getting tapped every year.

[cjf12]

We tapped Feb 9and are on gravity vacuum. Really slow flow when I would have thought things should have been pumping.

[DrTimPerkins]

What are peoples thoughts on redrilling same hole with a 3/8 bit instead of a 5/16.

First, it would be important to ascertain whether the tapholes were dry because it was too cold, or had been warm for a long period without a freeze, in which for either case reaming isn't going to do anything. If the tapholes are "dried out" due to sanitation impacts (you reused spouts or it has been more than 4-6 wks since you tapped), then it is worth considering the geometry of the situation. Reaming with a 1/16" larger bit essentially adds 1/32" to each side of the original taphole, so you will expose only a very small amount of fresh wood and will likely only get a fairly small and fairly transient additional flush of sap, but the tapholes will quickly (within a day or two) dry out again. The alternative is to drill a little deeper (will help a bit more, but affects the sustainability of tapping in the long term), or to drill a new taphole (has large negative consequences on tapping sustainability). If you have only a few trees it might be worth it to get a little extra sap as long as: 1) the tree is healthy and 2) you don't practice this approach very frequently. If you have a few hundred or several thousand, probably not worth doing. Alternatively, if you're only tapping a few trees, try to find different trees that you've not yet tapped this year.

[DrTimPerkins]

We tapped Feb 9and are on gravity vacuum. Really slow flow when I would have thought things should have been pumping.

If it was very cold for a period of time (like it has been here in Vermont), it can take a couple of nice warm days for the trees to warm up enough for the sap in them to thaw.

[sugarwoodacres]

If it was very cold for a period of time (like it has been here in Vermont), it can take a couple of nice warm days for the trees to warm up enough for the sap in them to thaw.
We have 20" of snow now and have had about 7 days of below freezing highs but the reds started to bud prior to cold snap. Is there any hope of still getting good sap when it warms up or will it be buddy ?
Thanks

[DrTimPerkins]

....but the reds started to bud prior to cold snap. Is there any hope of still getting good sap when it warms up or will it be buddy ?
Thanks

The only real way to tell would be to collect some sap and boil it (you can do it in a pot on the stove to avoid contaminating any sweet you may have left in your pans). If it smells really bad and tastes buddy....stop collecting and boiling. Generally once it goes really buddy, it won't come back entirely. If there is only a hint of buddy off-flavor before the cold, it might be OK for a short time. It is pretty unusual for buds to be killed by cold weather though, so you're partially into unknown territory here. Let us know what happens.

[BSD]

Just as an update from my original post.

My trees were just frozen. the next day they ran pretty well, nothing like the first flows of the season, but a I collected a healthy amount from them in a 24 hour period.

[RileySugarbush]

just a thought....

If a season went to the point where you were tempted to ream out your tap holes, and I did try it years ago, but you listen to Dr. Tim and don't do it. What are other options?

How about this?
The section of the tree that is permanenty damaged by tapping is a couple of tap diameters circumferentially and several inches above and below, as indicated by the stains in tap logs. What if you re-tapped one diameter over and 1" above or below. The effective damaged area would not end up much bigger than before, and possibly the distance of an inch or so might be far enough away from the contaminated hole to prevent or sufficiently delay contamination for a week or two production? If the tree is big, the extra hole should not be big deal and if this was only an occasional practice, long term tree damage negligible. Tapping practice is many inches away next year, so whats another 1/2"?

Opinions?

[DrTimPerkins]

What if you re-tapped one diameter over and 1" above or below. The effective damaged area would not end up much bigger than before, and possibly the distance of an inch or so might be far enough away from the contaminated hole to prevent or sufficiently delay contamination for a week or two production? If the tree is big, the extra hole should not be big deal and if this was only an occasional practice, long term tree damage negligible. Tapping practice is many inches away next year, so whats another 1/2"?

The wood area affected (stained) by tapping is just a bit wider than the taphole, and just a bit deeper than the taphole, but extends some distance (depending upon the taphole diameter, tree growth rate, and individual tree healing characteristics) above and below the taphole (typically 6-12" each direction for 5/16" or 7/16" tapholes). So tapping 1" to the side of a dried up taphole would be the same as adding another wound. What would probably be somewhat more acceptable would be to tap a few inches above or below a dried up taphole. To put you outside the original dried up taphole, but not expand the stained area by very much. This would work on gravity, but of course if you were using high vacuum, you'd get some air leakage.

[RileySugarbush]

Thanks!

Is sap flow generally radial, axial or circumferential?

Air leakage equal in all those directions?


I'm asking for a friend.....

[Alex Davies]

This is an old thread... But I've got some current questions...

Ive been tapped now for 5 weeks. However, this has been an exceptionally slow start to the season in ON Canada. It's been a very cold March, and there hasn't hardly been any sap runs. I've made way Less syrup then I would have liked by now, and judging from the long term forecast, it's looking like spring is going to come hard and fast (no more freezing at night temps forecasted by end of next week.

My question is: I've got a feeling that my taps are drying up. I'm not getting much flow on what you would expect to be good run days. We use new tap adapters, but I find that sap definitely backs up into the tap hole at the beginning of the season before I have a chance to check for leaks (leaks freeze mainline with vac, then runs the following day before mainline thaws).
However, that said ... I also was thinking that taps wouldn't be as susceptible to drying up if it's cold (below freezing)... maybe it's just been too cold to run... But I've been tapped 5 weeks... And I'm sure that sap would have backed up into tap holes on many of my lateral lines (3/16 laterals on hybrid vac system)...

There's still 2+ ft snow in the bush...

I threw I pile of $ into the operation this year - new RO, bulk tank vac pump and added taps and mains... It sure would be nice to make some syrup before she buds...

Maybe I'll try a retap a few inches above/below the current taps...

[spud]

5 weeks is not real long for a spout. If your sure you had a bunch of backflow then it is possible your holes are drying up. Retapping a tree will get you more sap for sure as long as there is good weather to go with it. I retapped 5 trees on a lateral line last year just for fun. The trees had already stopped running with the old spouts. With the new taps they ran like crazy for over a week. That being said I still don't think it's a good idea to retap a tree in the same year. I wish you well either way.

Spud

[NorEasterInMT]

This publication is well worth a read to understand why repeated tapping of the same holes isn't effective; it is very understandable, and provides great pictures for reference: [URL="https://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/gtr/gtr_ne47.pdf"]

My understanding, in brief, is that the trees "wall off", in response to injury, the sections where the prior hole was made. One has to drill 6" lateral to an existing hole (can go closer if the hole is healed over), and one should vary the height of holes to increase yield. This should avoid the "walled off" section of the tree.