Considering upgrading to tubing, but need advise

[Mille705]

We tap just over 300 taps mostly in a wood lot. We are currently tapping with metal buckets, sap sacks and some single tree tubing into 5 gallon buckets. Would like to look at some tubing but do not have any slope in the woods and worried that trees are not close enough to do this. We could tap more trees, but do not have enough equipment to do so. If we are going to invest in more equipment, should it be tubing? I live in Clinton county and wondered if anyone would show me there tubing setup and give me some ideas. Thanks.

[Cedar Eater]

3/16" tubing will do several good things for you, even if you have no slope, providing you put mechanical vacuum on it. You can do that with a relatively cheap 12VDC diaphragm pump powered by a deep cycle battery which will last you maybe two days between recharges, which means that you need to charge one battery while using another. You will get more sap to fewer collection points in less time more cheaply than the other tubing options. Ideally, you would want to string 15-25 trees together on runs of less than 500', but you can add more and your runs can be longer.

[motowbrowne]

It's amazing how cheaply a guy can get 300 taps set up on vacuum with this 3/16 tubing. Now, there are disadvantages, namely that it can get plugged, but if you run 300 taps at 20-25/lateral, you'll have 15 or fewer lines to check every day during runs. Not too bad.

This year I set up a new tubing system in my woods. I'm running 265ish taps into a one inch mainline it's all 3/16 excretory the mainline. With a Shurflo 2008 I'm getting 16-18 of vacuum in the mainline. My total cost including the Shurflo and mainline was around $1100. There's no way you could do a 300 tap installation with 5/16 in my woods for that price.

[BAP]

If you don't have any slope then 3/16" is not the best choice. With no slope you would be better off using 5/16" with a pump. As long as you put some kind of vacuum pump on it, you can tube the trees with little or no slope and get sap.

[BSD]

If you don't have any slope then 3/16" is not the best choice. With no slope you would be better off using 5/16" with a pump. As long as you put some kind of vacuum pump on it, you can tube the trees with little or no slope and get sap.not true if you use a pump.

[maple flats]

I respectfully disagree. With no slope, you have issues with 5/16 laterals. They need slope at least on the tubing even if the woods has none. Then if going very far, you need sap ladders to lift the sap in the main to a higher level then you can continue down a slope again.
I ran 3 lines in my flat woods this year using 3/16 as an experiment. I have 1 that is fairly flat and 2 that are actually lower away from the main than they are at the main. I have 25" vacuum on the main, which some vacuum is necessary for this method to work. If I remember, one line has 7 taps and I think the other 2 lines have 9. With the vacuum running those 3/16 lines move quite impressively, however the line friction and negative slope of the 2 that are lower than the main will reduce the vacuum, but the sap continues to move to the main. At the end of the main where the 3 test lines are has 22-23" vacuum after 2 sap ladders and a needle valve micro leak at the farthest out ladder about 40' before the ladder.
To do this you must have a vacuum pump, either a maple pump, an old dairy pump or a diaphragm pump (the last one is least cost to set up and requires no releaser, any conventional vacuum pump must have a releaser or you need a vacuum tank (a tank built to hold up to vacuum or it will implode, and then you need to know what vacuum level is safe with that tank).
If you have electric available on a diaphragm pump use that, if not, use a 12V and get 2 good deep cycle batteries, one to use while thew other charges. An AC plug in one is far simpler to run but do what you need to.

[Cedar Eater]

If you don't have any slope then 3/16" is not the best choice. With no slope you would be better off using 5/16" with a pump. As long as you put some kind of vacuum pump on it, you can tube the trees with little or no slope and get sap.

I too, will disagree with this. The advantages of 3/16" runs include higher tolerances for zigzagging, sagging, and other slight upslope runs that are subsequently cancelled by downslope runs. Coupled with the cheaper cost of installation, I'm have difficulty imagining where traditional mainlines with 5/16" laterals even fit into the picture anymore, especially if you have finicky trees like reds and silvers that are prone to shutting down long before the sap turns buddy unless you have vacuum on them.

[GV2]

I would like the opinion of the 3/16 advocates on my situation.

I set up a year 2015 3/16 line with good slope. It ran really good at times (not drips but steady stream). However I did not like the sugar content nor the collection location so I tried 3/16 line in a new stand this year. I zigzagged 23 well producing trees on 500 feet of line with about 1 -2% slope. I then dropped a 600 foot line from the last tree to collection. This 600 foot run has 25 feet of drop so about 3-4% slope with a short uplifted section because I had to pass under a bridge. No leaks. Lousy production, as I am averaging 4 gallons a night compared to 20 gallons a night that I got when this stand was on buckets. Do you guys think it is the long 600 foot low slope drop that is the cause? My calculations say that only a few gallons of sap should fill the total 1100 foot line. Any feedback is much appreciated.

[Cedar Eater]

What are the bubbles doing? It seems more like you might have plugging at a tee from drill shavings or an air leak problem. I would expect a steady stream, assuming your trees are cooperating.

[motowbrowne]

I think a vacuum gauge at the top of the line is almost a necessity with 3/16. I would suspect an air leak or plug as well.

[BSD]

I think a vacuum gauge at the top of the line is almost a necessity with 3/16. I would suspect an air leak or plug as well.vac gauges need to be standard equipment when you install run of 3/16 IMO. it will help you identify problems and give you a place to start tracking them down. you can get a vac gauge for $4-10, is that really going to break the bank with all the other expenses of sugaring?

[Joel M]

Looking at adding a pump to my 3/16 lines, where would you recommend I go for vac gauges?

Thanks

[Sugarmaker]

We tap just over 300 taps mostly in a wood lot. We are currently tapping with metal buckets, sap sacks and some single tree tubing into 5 gallon buckets. Would like to look at some tubing but do not have any slope in the woods and worried that trees are not close enough to do this. We could tap more trees, but do not have enough equipment to do so. If we are going to invest in more equipment, should it be tubing? I live in Clinton county and wondered if anyone would show me there tubing setup and give me some ideas. Thanks.

I have not used 3/16. I don't use vacuum. But I do successfully make approx .25 gallons of syrup per tap each year on short run tubing 5/16. These are short run tubing systems mostly on fairly flat ground. Developed the slope by elevating the lines from the low profile gathering containers to the last tree in the run. (approx 12 to 25 taps per line).
It depends what you want to accomplish in your operation! My goal was to reduce my collection labor, and time. I went from servicing each of 400 buckets, to 35 gathering stations for the current 650 taps.
I am not in a wood lot, so this system is not for everyone.
I think I would be looking at maybe vacuum and sap ladders to bring it to one point for gathering.
Just some ideas.
Regards,
Chris

[motowbrowne]

My favorite syrup supply store (Pittman's in Arkansaw WI) has them for $6. Otherwise, I'm sure the internet has a good price them. The ones I bought were 1/4" male NPT, so I used a 1/4 npt to barbed adapter. You gotta heat the tubing to get it on the barbs, but it works. Only place I could find them in stock locally was Ace, so I paid $3.50 for each adapter, bringing my total cost for each gauge installation to $9.50.

[ronintank]

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?27718-Vacuum-Gauge-on-3-16-line&p=298628#post298628

[Joel M]

Great! Thanks for the ideas!

[GV2]

What are the bubbles doing? It seems more like you might have plugging at a tee from drill shavings or an air leak problem. I would expect a steady stream, assuming your trees are cooperating.

As I think about it a plugged tee along the line is a reasonable theory. Even if I had a leak or 2 I would think that I would get something close to what bucket did in this stand for years. But a plugged line could explain the weak performance. To study bubbles more closely I need to get some daylight hours out in the stand when things run again (close to single digits the last 3 mornings in western MA!) Nobody has questioned the long 4% drop line yet so if that is not the issue then this setup may still have potential. thanks..

[BSD]

As I think about it a plugged tee along the line is a reasonable theory. Even if I had a leak or 2 I would think that I would get something close to what bucket did in this stand for years. But a plugged line could explain the weak performance. To study bubbles more closely I need to get some daylight hours out in the stand when things run again (close to single digits the last 3 mornings in western MA!) Nobody has questioned the long 4% drop line yet so if that is not the issue then this setup may still have potential. thanks..i had a problem develop after 2 weeks. the line collapsed at a Tee. it was running slow at the tank and the top 3/4 of the line was chock full and couldn't drain. the trees were actually pushing it out around taps on the upper trees.

15892

[Cedar Eater]

Nobody has questioned the long 4% drop line yet so if that is not the issue then this setup may still have potential. thanks..

The long line does not matter. It only adds some small amount of friction which will translate to a small decrease in vacuum. Gravity is acting on every molecule of sap in the line and it is relentless. Same with the dip under the bridge. The sap is being pushed and/or pulled up that slope with only a slight increase in friction.

[firetech]

I have the setup you want to see near Lainsburg pm me and we can look it over 650 taps no slope to the woodlot

[WVKeith]

Did you install tee using a tubing tool or use heat to get tubing on?

[BSD]

Did you install tee using a tubing tool or use heat to get tubing on?if the question was for me, this was with a 2 handed tool in the woods. no heat.