3/16 vs 5/16 on vacuum

[MapleMike]

I have a recently leased a 1,000 tap woods that was previously tapped with all 5/16 run to the mains. All 5/16 needs replacing, mains are in good shape. I will only get 2-300 taps in this season. Will be on a vac system next year.
Question is this. Will it make any difference if I use 5/16 or 3/16 tubing if eventually on a vac system?
The woods have an awesome slope, all mains returning to a single collection point.
Thinking ahead to next season.
One other question. Collection point is 2,500' into the woods, i plan to build a small shed to hold the vac, generator and possibly a pump. The pump would be empty the tank to the truck. Would I need a releaser for this setup? What is the function of a releaser?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Mìke

[Woodsrover]

If there is a good slope, ditch the mainline, ditch the vacuum pump, ditch the generator and let the 3/16 do what it likes to do. 2500' is a long way but 3/16 is still going to be cheaper than running a generator and vacuum pump.

If the land is sloped right, maybe you can run a bunch of 3/16 runs down hill far enough to get your vacuum and then manifold them together into a 1" main that carries your sap further down the hill just under its own weight?

[Russell Lampron]

I don't know much about 3/16 tubing but I do know about vacuum and pumping long distances.

First is there a good road to the collection point? Lugging in gas for a generator to run a vacuum pump and sap pump is going to be a pain. If you run a vacuum pump you will need a releaser. The releaser is what separates the vacuum from the sap so that you don't pump it through your pump. You will need a vacuum pump that will provide 1 cfm per 100 taps or bigger. You will also need a releaser and an additional pump to empty it if you go with an electric releaser. If you go with a mechanical releaser you need a double or a horizontal because the singles are only good for up to 600 taps. I use a horizontal because of the much simpler design and fewer moving parts to cause problems. You will also need a moisture trap between the releaser and the pump to protect it when the releaser malfunctions. Notice that I said "when" there. All releasers will malfunction once in a while and you don't want to pump sap through your vacuum pump.

If you go with all 3/16 you can eliminate the pump and releaser and related parts but the slope will have to be steep enough to create a natural vacuum. If you plan to use the vacuum pump and releaser you will want to re-tube the woods with 5/16 because the larger tubing will allow better vacuum transfer to the farthest taps.

Second what is the terrain like to get the sap out of the woods? Are you pumping uphill or down and what size pipe are you using? I pump my sap 1500' up a 30' or so elevation change. I'm using a 2" gas powered pump and a 1 1/4" pipe. It takes 115 gallons of sap to fill the pipe before anything comes out the other end. If you are pumping downhill it will drain to the road and make things much easier. If you have to drain it back to the collection point how are you planning to get it out of the woods? You don't want leave it in the pipe to spoil. Another thing that I found was that if the temp is below freezing the sap will freeze in the pipe before it reaches the other end thus limiting the times when you can actually pump the tank to when it's above freezing.

[madmapler]

If you have good slope and assuming you will not have electricity, I would definitely go with 3/16. Maintaining a gas set up is a pain even from a roadside location. Twice a day visits at least to turn on and off the system. Maybe you could give some more details like how accessible is the collection point? Will you have to carry gas 2500' to the vac. pump? Is power, in fact, available?

[BAP]

Going with a hybrid 3/16" with a vacuum system will give you the best of both. The 3/16" on slope will add natural vacuum and the vacuum pump will make sure all trees get the same amount of vacuum from the bottom of the line to the top. Also, when the trees aren't running a lot for reasons like it hasn't frozen or weather isn't quite right, having the pump will keep good vacuum increasing yields. I have 100 taps on 3/16" on 5 lines running into a tank with about 60 feet of drop from top to bottom. When sap is running good I have 27-28" vacuum at the top and get a lot of sap. When sap slows down from not freezing for days like it has this year, vacuum goes down. My other setup in a different section of the same woods has 95 taps on 5/16" with 1/2" mainline and a 4008 Shurflo pump. I get 21.5" of vacuum with the pump and on days of not freezing I get more sap because the pump maintains consistent vacuum. For a 1000 tap lot I would definitely have a vacuum pump to keep your yield up. Using the 3/16 will help get good vacuum on your lines. I see you have a 2x6 evaporator. If you get all 1000 taps hooked up you are going to need to get an RO or bigger evaporator to keep up.

[lewichuk19]

how many taps can you put on a 4008 shurflo pump system??

[Cedar Eater]

how many taps can you put on a 4008 shurflo pump system??

The max flowrate of a Shurflow 4008 is 11.3 liters per minute. At anything less than that, you should have some vacuum contribution from the pump. At anything more than that, you need more pumps. I would think it would take a lot of taps before you get 11.3 l/m of sap flow. But if you want to target a certain vacuum amount at the pump, that takes someone with more experience than me.

[jmayerl]

The max flowrate of a Shurflow 4008 is 11.3 liters per minute. At anything less than that, you should have some vacuum contribution from the pump. At anything more than that, you need more pumps. I would think it would take a lot of taps before you get 11.3 l/m of sap flow. But if you want to target a certain vacuum amount at the pump, that takes someone with more experience than me.

Don't forget trees put out gases also so that needs to be figured into the equation. I started a thread with hopes of people putting there setups and results in it so all could see what size pumps work but that thread has seen little traffic

[MapleMike]

Thanks for the replays so far.
I can drive right to the collection point. The terrain isn't bad but I would have to keep it plowed. ( Yes honey I really do need a dump truck with a plow to make syrup ).
My generator is a good one with auto start and I planned on automating the start stop of the vacuum with a temp sensor and slow start with a VFD on the vac pump (assuming it would be oil type). I'm an electrician and have an automation background. Difinitely going with an RO. I thinking a 600 GPH. Everything is setup 5/16 now so I think I'll stay with that. That way I don't have to touch the main lines. Might do a combo, 500 on 5/16 and 500 on 3/16, that way I could do a comparison. I think the 2X6 will be okay with the RO. Can't wait to be boiling concentrate and drawing off all the time.
Thanks again for your responses and I'm happy to answer an electrical questions.

[JoeJ]

Jmayeri,

Could you post the thread about the vacuum pumps and sizing?

Thanks, Joe

[Cedar Eater]

Don't forget trees put out gases also so that needs to be figured into the equation. I started a thread with hopes of people putting there setups and results in it so all could see what size pumps work but that thread has seen little traffic

My setup is still theoretical. I have most of the components to put it together on Monday. It will just be a 600+' single 3/16" level ground line that ends in a Shurflo 4008 dumping the sap from 28 taps into a barrel.

[jmayerl]

Jmayeri,

Could you post the thread about the vacuum pumps and sizing?

Thanks, Joe

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?29848-Shurflo-s-capabilities