Information on 3/16"

[alldaysit]

Could someone please post thread sources that would provide valuable information for setting up natural vac on 3/16". Specifically I'm looking for reasons why one would not use 5/16.

Price, vacuum creation, just Why?

Also, I have roughly another 80 trees I could tap. I have about 10 feet elevation change over 300 feet. Any advice on appropriate setup for gravity?


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[wmick]

I ran across this article last week.... Seems very informative and thorough.
http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/3-16%20Tubing%20-%20Wilmot%20-%20Maple%20News%20Dec%202014a.pdf

[Austin351]

As I understand it (first year on 3/16 for me), sap will not fill the 5/16" tubing and will allow air to pass above the sap, thus not creating vacuum. The line needs to be completely full of sap to create the pull.

[wmick]

As I understand it (first year on 3/16 for me), sap will not fill the 5/16" tubing and will allow air to pass above the sap, thus not creating vacuum. The line needs to be completely full of sap to create the pull.

I have no experience with sap tubing, but the owner of a maple supply shop I was talking to the other day, explained the very same thing... Cant remember the terminology he used... but basically said the 3/16" will not allow air back up the tube and drain itself out.., where as 5/16" will.

[BSD]

Could someone please post thread sources that would provide valuable information for setting up natural vac on 3/16". Specifically I'm looking for reasons why one would not use 5/16.

Price, vacuum creation, just Why?

Also, I have roughly another 80 trees I could tap. I have about 10 feet elevation change over 300 feet. Any advice on appropriate setup for gravity?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkbe careful when talking to dealers who primarily deal with 5/16, they're set on selling you the usual expensive stuff like pumps, releasers, etc. they'll tell you to never use 3/16 on "flat ground". they just don't know what the hell they're talking about.

3/16 is viable anywhere 5/16 is. I've had best results putting up to 30 trees on each run, i like to run at 25 per line if i can. I happen to have a great property with lots of elevation drop to use natural vacuum and i generate up to 23" of vacuum. i have some lines that lif as high as 6' without a pump. on a 3% slope like you have, you're going to need a simple shurflo diaphragm pump. you can pull over flat or even uphill with one. The other must-have for 3/16 is a vacuum gauge on each line, this lets you know what is happening and helps identify problem lines.

read the articles by DrTim @ UVM and the guys at Cornell. they're very in depth, when you finish them, read them again.

[lewichuk19]

The other must-have for 3/16 is a vacuum gauge on each line, this lets you know what is happening and helps identify problem lines.


'BSD'

New guy here, going to run a few 3/16th this year. Just curious how you find a leak on 'problem lines'. Do you just walk the line looking for extra air bubbles, or can you hear them as well???

[BSD]

The other must-have for 3/16 is a vacuum gauge on each line, this lets you know what is happening and helps identify problem lines.


'BSD'

New guy here, going to run a few 3/16th this year. Just curious how you find a leak on 'problem lines'. Do you just walk the line looking for extra air bubbles, or can you hear them as well???
I had one line develop a problem last week after running well for 2 weeks. i noticed almost no flow coming out of it at the tank when the others were running well. I wasn't sure which one of my lines it was since they're bundled together. So i went to the top of the lines and found the one with the gauge was reading zero. This saved me from having to walk 3000 feet of lines and narrow it down to one 500-600' line. the whole line ended up being filled with sap down the line until i found a section that had crushed/collapsed at a drop T and was blocking sap from going down hill. If you have a slight leak and the line is running hard and you'll be able to hear sucking.

This is the section with the bad drop i cut out.
15815

[Cedar Eater]

I don't have thread sources to cite, but the surface tension of the water/sugar mix is what makes 3/16" work and 5/16" fail at creating a vacuum. Surface tension is what causes bubbles sitting on top of a liquid to not pop for a while. I have five gravity/natural vacuum 3/16" runs with 30' of drop each and a single level ground 3/16" run that I will soon be putting a small diaphragm pump on. The level ground run has 28 trees and it filled a 48 qt cooler in less than two days. It will probably do closer to a gallon per tree per day with vacuum.

[BSD]

It will probably do closer to a gallon per tree per day with vacuum.
the best day I got 2 gallons per tap early in the season on 3/16 with 2 lines running 23" and the other 2 running 12-15". I'd love to know what it would do on a shurflo on a good day.

[Cedar Eater]

With natural vacuum, I've gotten over 1 gallon per day per tap often, but my level ground line is new and has almost no natural vacuum. It's over 600' long and there's less than a .5% slope.

[pyro]

Do you need all new 3/16" taps? Or can you convert 5/16" taps to 3/16" line?

How forgiving is the setup? Can you have a section that runs uphill for 5' in the middle of the line?

[Cedar Eater]

Also, I have roughly another 80 trees I could tap. I have about 10 feet elevation change over 300 feet. Any advice on appropriate setup for gravity?

Assuming that you tried 3/16" tubing, you would select a top tree for each run and terminate your runs at a minimum number of collection stations, preferably one, at the lowest point, picking up as many trees per run as you can, up to around 30, by zigzagging through the trees. At your top trees, tie on and tap high on the trunk. I stand on the tailgate of my truck or use a ladder. Then slope down to as low as you can go and still collect at the termination point. Every bit of vacuum is better than no vacuum. 10 ft. + 5 ft will produce enough vacuum to more than overcome the height of the top tree's tap. You might not get a sap tsunami, but you won't get any suction from a 5/16" lateral to a mainline.

[BSD]

Do you need all new 3/16" taps? Or can you convert 5/16" taps to 3/16" line?

How forgiving is the setup? Can you have a section that runs uphill for 5' in the middle of the line?
I have 3/16-5/16-3/16 T's to use standard drops and taps. You're not too far away from me if you want to come check out my setup Pyro

If you have enough fall on the other side of that 5' lift, it will work.

[Cedar Eater]

Do you need all new 3/16" taps? Or can you convert 5/16" taps to 3/16" line?

How forgiving is the setup? Can you have a section that runs uphill for 5' in the middle of the line?

You can use 5/16" taps and a 5/16" drop tube to a tee that has 3/16" for the flow through and 5/16" for the drop connection. The tees I've seen that do this are green. Yes you can have a rise. It adds friction which translates to a slight drop in vacuum, but otherwise the drop afterward cancels the rise.

[alldaysit]

Man am I pissed I spent all that time and money on a mainline, laterals, etc. I could have run three 500' lines of 3/16" to 90 trees in WAY less time I feel like.

I might just buy another 500' of 3/16" and 30 sets of 3/16 taps/ts and set it up.

Are you guys telling me I could put a shurflo on 3- 3/16" lines with 30 taps on each one them and that system would produce?

I guess starting on my home property I was going to learn the ins and outs of this process.


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[BSD]

Man am I pissed I spent all that time and money on a mainline, laterals, etc. I could have run three 500' lines of 3/16" to 90 trees in WAY less time I feel like.

I might just buy another 500' of 3/16" and 30 sets of 3/16 taps/ts and set it up.

Are you guys telling me I could put a shurflo on 3- 3/16" lines with 30 taps on each one them and that system would produce?

I guess starting on my home property I was going to learn the ins and outs of this process.


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you could use 3/16-5/16-3/16 T's to make use of your existing 5/16 drops and taps. that's what i do.

but yea, a shurflo 2088 or 4088 is what you want. i shoot for 25 taps per line. but it will work great with 30 on a pump

[Cedar Eater]

Are you guys telling me I could put a shurflo on 3- 3/16" lines with 30 taps on each one them and that system would produce?

I'm really not sure how many taps would be optimum for a Shurflo 4008. Or how many taps are optimum for a single 3/16" line, but since you already have 5/16" spouts and drop tubes, I suggest four lines to account for the loss of vacuum in the drop tubes when you tie them into these tees.

15817

[alldaysit]

I'm really not sure how many taps would be optimum for a Shurflo 4008. Or how many taps are optimum for a single 3/16" line, but since you already have 5/16" spouts and drop tubes, I suggest four lines to account for the loss of vacuum in the drop tubes when you tie them into these tees.

15817

Oh I got you. That makes sense.


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[alldaysit]

I have another property of 20 acres I am currently not tapping. I would like to in the future. Slope is very minimal. If I want to install say 600-1200 taps in the future, with 3/16" would I want to use some sort of a mainline.

When it comes to vacuum, what are the differences between 5/16" and 3/16". It seems that the way I am understanding it is that you don't have the pressure drop on 3/16" like you do on 5/16". Is that true?


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[Johnny t]

This is my first year on 3/16 I put in four runs and am absolutely amazed how much more sap I'm getting. I'm dropping 30-40 feet on all of them. I have on 5/16 run with about the same amount of taps and it pales in comparison to the 3/16. I run 5/16 drops and get good vacuum if there is a leak it's amazing how far away you can here the "sucking" sound when checking lines. I don't have vacuum gauges (yet). 3/16 drops better? I don't know I am using what I have on hand for now...

John

[Johnny t]

[QUOTE=
When it comes to vacuum, what are the differences between 5/16" and 3/16". It seems that the way I am understanding it is that you don't have the pressure drop on 3/16" like you do on 5/16". Is that true?


As stated earlier there is no vacuum with 5/16.

[Ivyacres]

No vac outside mechanical vac may be a better statement. 5/16 the rule is no more than 5 taps per line. There is much research on this if you check out either Cornell or Tim Wilmot at PMRC

[Cedar Eater]

3/16 drops better? I don't know I am using what I have on hand for now...

3/16" drops are not that much better and your selection of spiles is severely limited. If you want check valve spiles, you have to go with check valve adaptors and 3/16" stubs.

[Hannah]

This is my first year on 3/16 I put in four runs and am absolutely amazed how much more sap I'm getting. I'm dropping 30-40 feet on all of them. I have on 5/16 run with about the same amount of taps and it pales in comparison to the 3/16. I run 5/16 drops and get good vacuum if there is a leak it's amazing how far away you can here the "sucking" sound when checking lines. I don't have vacuum gauges (yet). 3/16 drops better? I don't know I am using what I have on hand for now...

John

I agree, this is my first year using 3/16 and have a very steep hill ranging from 30'-60' high and can not believe the way the sap pours out of the 3/16 even on a day in the low 30's. If the sap in the lines is not frozen it's flowin!

[bill in il]

New guy here, going to run a few 3/16th this year. Just curious how you find a leak on 'problem lines'. Do you just walk the line looking for extra air bubbles, or can you hear them as well???[/QUOTE]




I had to fix some leaks this year in my 3/16 due to the squirrels. They were easy to spot just look for the air bubbles and fast a moving sap in the line and follow them up to the source. On the good days I could hear them from 10 feet away.

Gauges would probably be great for quick spot checks at the top of the line but I have to pass by the bottom ends to collect each day so I get a quick visual of the lines and gauges are not nessecary for me.

[hodorskib]

You will see a stream of bubbles that is very different than what is coming down the line to the leak. You may also hear it whistle - at least the last leak that I found did and heard it from about 50' away. There is a little learning curve but you will figure it out quickly. The first line I setup took a while but then it got much easier from there.

[lewichuk19]

Thanks for all the tips everyone!!...Its still winter here so ill let you know how we make out in the near future. This 3/16 seems to be pretty simple to manage. Plus from what i have read on here, is way cheaper to setup than a normal 5/16 vacuum system, while getting a comparable amount of sap...Here's hoping for a good first season for us...:) :)

[wmick]

Quick Question (I think)...
I gained access to a little chunk of bush near the road, but cant plan on getting there every night... Thinking about tapping 40 or 50 trees there, this weekend, but not with buckets... I cant set up a proper vacuum pump and the property has no natural fall. I have picked up a bunch of 3/6" spiles and "T"s etc... My plan was to set up 3 or 4 plastic drums to pump from, and run a handful of 3/16" lines from each to surrounding trees (as far out as I can, while maintaining a bit of fall (Max 4ft or so) Maybe 4 or 5 taps each?).
After reading and thinking more on this thread... and the importance of creating "Vacuum", I'm starting to wonder if my plan will work at all??? I wont be creating any significant vacuum at 3 or 4 ft of fall... Will I get any decent amount of sap, pushing itself out those short 3/16" lines?? Am I wasting my time?

Hope somebody can help advise...

Thanks

[BSD]

Quick Question (I think)...
I gained access to a little chunk of bush near the road, but cant plan on getting there every night... Thinking about tapping 40 or 50 trees there, this weekend, but not with buckets... I cant set up a proper vacuum pump and the property has no natural fall. I have picked up a bunch of 3/6" spiles and "T"s etc... My plan was to set up 3 or 4 plastic drums to pump from, and run a handful of 3/16" lines from each to surrounding trees (as far out as I can, while maintaining a bit of fall (Max 4ft or so) Maybe 4 or 5 taps each?).
After reading and thinking more on this thread... and the importance of creating "Vacuum", I'm starting to wonder if my plan will work at all??? I wont be creating any significant vacuum at 3 or 4 ft of fall... Will I get any decent amount of sap, pushing itself out those short 3/16" lines?? Am I wasting my time?

Hope somebody can help advise...

Thanksit will work barely, ideally you want at least a 10-12 per line to get the lines full of sap to make it work better. you could put them all on one line with a little shurflo pump and it will work great. then there is only one collection point as well.

[wmick]

it will work barely, ideally you want at least a 10-12 per line to get the lines full of sap to make it work better. you could put them all on one line with a little shurflo pump and it will work great. then there is only one collection point as well.
I don't think I have the time or the $$ to set up a pump, controller and power source, etc, set up this year...
If you think I will have better results with 10 taps per line, I suspect I can make that happen... Fairly thick bush and all maple.

[Cedar Eater]

Quick Question (I think)...
I gained access to a little chunk of bush near the road, but cant plan on getting there every night... Thinking about tapping 40 or 50 trees there, this weekend, but not with buckets... I cant set up a proper vacuum pump and the property has no natural fall. I have picked up a bunch of 3/6" spiles and "T"s etc... My plan was to set up 3 or 4 plastic drums to pump from, and run a handful of 3/16" lines from each to surrounding trees (as far out as I can, while maintaining a bit of fall (Max 4ft or so) Maybe 4 or 5 taps each?).
After reading and thinking more on this thread... and the importance of creating "Vacuum", I'm starting to wonder if my plan will work at all??? I wont be creating any significant vacuum at 3 or 4 ft of fall... Will I get any decent amount of sap, pushing itself out those short 3/16" lines?? Am I wasting my time?

Hope somebody can help advise...

Thanks

You don't have to run a separate line from each tree. I strung and tapped 28 trees together during a run on one 3/16" line of about 600'. I intend to put mechanical vacuum on it next week. The line started to run. There's probably only 4' of drop from the highest tap to the last tee on the line. So I put a 48 qt. cooler under it and came back two days later as the run was ending. The cooler was overflowing. The natural pressure of the trees was pushing the sap out and down the line. I don't think I would put that many trees on a line if I didn't intend to add mechanical vacuum, but half that many would probably flow pretty well.

[BSD]

I don't think I have the time or the $$ to set up a pump, controller and power source, etc, set up this year...
If you think I will have better results with 10 taps per line, I suspect I can make that happen... Fairly thick bush and all maple.
over 10 is better for natural vacuum, you need to fill the tubing with sap to generate the vacuum, less will work if you're not trying to make vacuum.

[lyford]

How long of a 3/16 line can i put on a shurflo. Would 2 lines of 1000ft and 25-30 taps each be too much for a shurflo?