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View Full Version : Lessons in Thermal dynamics - improving boil rate



BSD
02-28-2017, 11:30 AM
I'm looking for constructive criticism to improve my boil rate.

I run an older set of pans, not sure who makes it, but it's 5 pans. overall dimensions are 2.5x10' for the pans. My back three pans are drop flues, the rear most is 8" deep flues, the next pan is 6" deep flues and the middle pan is 4" deep. The front two pans are finishing flat bottom pans. My arch runs a 10" stack with about 17' of height. my first boil I averaged 40 GPH with no blower. I'm certainly happy with it, but with everything, i'm looking to improve and run at peak performance. I get a raging boil in my second flat bottom pan, presumable because that's where most of the heat is over the fire. The middle pan would get a jumping boil at the front to middle of the flues. my 4th pan would simmer very hard but rarely boil unless i forced wood way back into the firebox. My last pan would basically only simmer lightly or act as a pre-heater. Smoke coming out of the stack would really shoot up into the air at start up, it draws extremely hard. I use the ash door to control air intake through the grates for AUF.

My setup: 15791

With the warm spell i cleaned out my pans and in the process i added more height to reduce the gap between the brick at the back from about 3" to 3/4-1" to the flues on the last pan. I also added a vertical row of firebrick behind the flues on my 4th pan. I did this to force some air up into the baffles of the last pan. then after the last pan, before going up the stack i added a 5" piece of metal from the top down. my thought was to trap as much heat and then force it down before going up the stack. the area of my stack is 78in square. and i have 112 inch square of area under the 5" baffle at the rear. I think this also helps slow the heat down a little before going up the stack.

15792
15793

i did a test boil with water and it seems to work well. i got a huge jumping boil in my middle pan, my forth pan was boiling at the front and simmering well at the back, and my last pan was also simmering harder than it ever has before as well. I was able to raise water from 50 to 211 degrees in about 9 minutes in my front pan, which is a bit faster (no real timing though) than i've done it before. my second pan was boiling hard after just 5 minutes.


So i have some thoughts about how to improve it further. one is to put more baffles in with firebrick under the forth and middle pan to create a tumbling wave action and force more heat up into the flues.
My other thought was to raise the bottom row of firebrick even more under those flues. because of the stepped-down size, i'm curious if it would work. The bottom of my arch would have a "hump" in the middle and then get lower before going up the stack due to the nature of my stacked height flues.
My last thought was to make a set of zig-zags channels with fire brick to slow the air flow under the middle and fourth pan, this would also create a little more turbulence, which i think is helpful.

Should i be aiming for a hard rolling boil in the front pan? or do i want it to boil/simmer hard? I think i could get a rolling boil up against the front if i put a blower under the arch where there is a cut out for it. i think the blower would force the heat/flames to the front of the arch before going to the stack.

Any thoughts?

BSD
02-28-2017, 11:34 AM
another visual to go with my post.
15794

Big_Eddy
02-28-2017, 11:55 AM
I'm not sure if it's possible, but if it were me, I'd reverse your 3 flue pans so the deepest flues were are the front, and the shortest at the back. Then I'd keep sloping the arch bottom up in line with the bottom of the flues, leaving 1/2" or less below the bottoms of the flues. That way you have the most surface area where you have the hottest gases and can therefore extract the most energy possible from the flames before they go up the stack. And the narrowing arch bottom will make the tightest restriction at the end of the pans, keeping the heat under the pans as long as possible.

BSD
02-28-2017, 12:06 PM
I'm not sure if it's possible, but if it were me, I'd reverse your 3 flue pans so the deepest flues were are the front, and the shortest at the back. Then I'd keep sloping the arch bottom up in line with the bottom of the flues, leaving 1/2" or less below the bottoms of the flues. That way you have the most surface area where you have the hottest gases and can therefore extract the most energy possible from the flames before they go up the stack. And the narrowing arch bottom will make the tightest restriction at the end of the pans, keeping the heat under the pans as long as possible.you know, i had that idea too. it didn't totally make sense to me to have the deepest flues at the back, but that's where the float box is. I could have the pans modified in the off season to put a float box on a different pan.

Stoneduester
02-28-2017, 02:29 PM
Do you have a thermometer on the stack? It seems to me that the heat exchanging capabilities of the pans exceed the heat producing capabilities of the firebox. I think that no matter how you route the gases, the pans will always suck more energy out than the firebox can put in. Getting the stack temp would be a good place to start, then you could compare that to other rigs.

BSD
02-28-2017, 10:19 PM
well i gave it a try this afternoon, i switched the middle and last pan to put it from deepest to most shallow front to back. I also raised the bottom up to be 1/4-1/2" from the flues and fired it up. i filled the back two pans with water and boiled sap in the front three. As soon as i fired i could tell that it wasn't drafting as hard but I pressed on. After coming up to temperature quickly it got the whole third pan to a good rolling boil. I was happy to see that, but i could tell something was a little off. The two last pans were not boiling, but rather simmering. I was making tons of heat but it wasn't drafting as well as it should be. I checked the stack and it was billowing black smoke. I'm surprised no one called the fire department, it was like I had a freight train in my yard for the whole burn. At two points there were flames shooting out of the top of a 17' stack and i was watering the roof of my barn just in case. So there are a lot of unburnt gases in there that i need to address. Apparently I need to maintain a little more airspace under the flues. i'm going to stick with 3/4-1" gap and try that. I know a blower will help, should i try to dial this in before putting a blower on it? or put a blower on it first and see where that leads me?

BSD
02-28-2017, 10:20 PM
Do you have a thermometer on the stack? It seems to me that the heat exchanging capabilities of the pans exceed the heat producing capabilities of the firebox. I think that no matter how you route the gases, the pans will always suck more energy out than the firebox can put in. Getting the stack temp would be a good place to start, then you could compare that to other rigs.I should get one and put it on there.

Super Sapper
03-01-2017, 06:42 AM
The black smoke is from lack of oxygen. I would add the blower first.

danielschauder
03-01-2017, 10:08 AM
I think I would get the blower hooked up before changing anything else. The blower is going to greatly change how your rig runs.

BSD
03-01-2017, 06:49 PM
I think I would get the blower hooked up before changing anything else. The blower is going to greatly change how your rig runs.thanks guys, that's next on my list. been hoping to find one local, but so far no luck. I had one friend tell me to look for something in the 400-500 CFM range, does that sound appropriately sized?

danielschauder
03-01-2017, 07:27 PM
thanks guys, that's next on my list. been hoping to find one local, but so far no luck. I had one friend tell me to look for something in the 400-500 CFM range, does that sound appropriately sized?
I would say 500 cfm should be adequate. A rheostat would allow you to control the blower speed. You will probably want to seal up your ash door so you aren't blowing ash and sparks out the front.

This is the blower on my rig- http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAYTON-1TDR9-Blower-463-cfm-115V-1-28A-1600-rpm-/322390508697?hash=item4b0ff8c499:g:iMYAAOSwEzxYekv-

BSD
03-01-2017, 08:32 PM
I would say 500 cfm should be adequate. A rheostat would allow you to control the blower speed. You will probably want to seal up your ash door so you aren't blowing ash and sparks out the front.

This is the blower on my rig- http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAYTON-1TDR9-Blower-463-cfm-115V-1-28A-1600-rpm-/322390508697?hash=item4b0ff8c499:g:iMYAAOSwEzxYekv-
that's the exact one i was just about to buy for my set up,

berkshires
03-02-2017, 03:01 PM
before going up the stack i added a 5" piece of metal from the top down. my thought was to trap as much heat and then force it down before going up the stack

Any thoughts?

I'm not an expert in thermal dynamics, but it seems to me you'd want that metal going from the bottom up, not top down. From the top down I think it would force some of the hot gasses to go down underneath your flues, when you want them going up through the flues.

Gabe

BSD
03-02-2017, 06:44 PM
I'm not an expert in thermal dynamics, but it seems to me you'd want that metal going from the bottom up, not top down. From the top down I think it would force some of the hot gasses to go down underneath your flues, when you want them going up through the flues.

Gabeyou may be right, i'm certainly open to suggestion and experimentation. my thought was to hold some of the heat before it went up the stack, but it may be too much restriction and keep the flames below the flues. ideally you want flames on the flues for heat transfer. i'll try to flip it around next time and see what the difference is.

Sugarmaker
03-03-2017, 10:44 AM
This set up reminds me of the antique Warren Evaporator I learned to make syrup on.
You probably wont get those rear pans to boil hard. First off what is the sap temp coming into the rear pan? if it is 40 degrees that in its self is going to cool those rear pans.
Where do you make syrup in this rig?
How does the sap get to the front of the arch?
Regards,
Chris