help with establishing a gradiant

[mspina14]

Boiled this weekend for the first time on a new 2X4 Mason evaporator.

It has a raised flue sap pan and a separate divided syrup pan with 3 sections. Prior to getting the 2X4 we batch boiled on a barrel stove.

I boiled for about 10 hours this weekend and went thru about 150 gallons of 2% sap. but could not get to syrup. The sap was fed into the evaporator from a head tank that had 150 gallons of sap.

Best we could do was to get the sap to about 60% brix. We boiled for 2 hours after we got to 60% but could not get the sugar concentration to go any higher. We had to stop because we ran out of sap. :confused:

We maintained about a 2 1/2 inch depth in the syrup pan throughout the boil.

Am I doing something wrong? Any help appreciated.

thanks

Mark

[psparr]

The depth will add to the time till first draw.
I'll defer to Big Eddy for the specific sap amounts. He's a sap mathematician.

If you have a gradient, keep boilin. If you have mixing going on and all your front pan is the same brix then you may be firing inconsistently. If she's rolling good, and the boil dies down from a lack of wood, it could cause mixing.
But my best guess is you just need to keep chugging along until your first draw. Then things will get into a better rhythm.

[newmod]

This year i was getting disgusted also. I boil on a Smoky LAke hybrid 2x5. I think i probably went thru 400 gallons before i drew off. WELL IT SEEMED LIKE IT !... It was probably at least 20 hours of boiling until the draw. All is good now. 18 gallons of syrup so far.

[Russell Lampron]

We maintained about a 2 1/2 inch depth in the syrup pan throughout the boil.

Try running it at 1 1/2" deep until you get used to it and then drop it down to an inch. With less sweet in the pan it will turn to syrup quicker. Be careful at the lower depth because it can go beyond syrup pretty fast.

[mspina14]

Try running it at 1 1/2" deep until you get used to it and then drop it down to an inch. With less sweet in the pan it will turn to syrup quicker. Be careful at the lower depth because it can go beyond syrup pretty fast.

Thanks.

I was running it at 2 1/2 inches because it was my first time boiling on the evaporator. I was tempted to reduce the depth, but I'm still trying to get the hang of balancing the rate of flow into the sap pan (to keep the raised flues covered with sap), the rate of the flow from the sap pan into the syrup pan (to maintain a level depth), and trying to maintain a constant wood burning rate.

Several times the boil would drop, the depth would rise, I'd reduce the flow to the syrup pan and add more wood. Then the boil would explode, the depth would drop, and I'd frantically open the float box valve to get more sap into the syrup pan before I burned it.

It's quite a juggling act but I suspect that, like most new things, practice makes perfect.

Mark

[slammer3364]

I first started at an inch depth also. Wasnt worth the worry. One night we were boiling and boiling and could not get no syrup,well in a matter of minutes we almost had disaster.Now I boil at two inches and changed some stuff up on evaporator and get 10 to 12 gal. an hour on 18x 48 I guess what I am getting at is better safe than sorry and a heck of alot cheaper Best of Luck and God Bless Slammer

[wnybassman]

Keep boiling, it will come. Those floods of sap from the flue pan are killing your chances of drawing off syrup. Trust your float box, it's taking care of things. I only wiggle mine once and a while to make sure it isn't stuck on more than it should be.

[bigschuss]

I have a Mason 2x4 and it does take at least 100 gallons to sweeten the pan. The next 50 gallons and I can think about drawing off. I boil at about an inch and a half. I think at 2 and a half you're probably just about there, especially since your on mostly reds. Keep boiling.

[Sugarmaker]

As suggested 1.5 inch sap depth will get you there faster. lots of playing around with things as you learn. Get a egg timer and fire about every 5 to 8 minutes. it takes some time to sweeten the pans. It took me about 500 gallons of 2% sap to start making syrup.
(bigger rig). Also remember that if you have reds your sugar content may be 1% ish and thats going to take longer to make syrup too.
regards,
Chris

[mspina14]

Thanks for everyone's suggestion.

We're out of sap now and waiting to collect more.

I shut down the evaporator last night with a full flue and syrup pan. Sap in the syrup pan is at about 58% sugar.

We're having a few days of unseasonably warm weather. Temp's near 60 degrees.

I hope the sap in the pans does not spoil.

Also, I hope the warm weather doesn't kill the sap run.

I'll restart when I get about 100 gallons or so of sap. This time, I'll try to run the pan at 1 1/2 -2 inches and see how it goes.

Appreciate all the feedback.

Mark

[Lethalbowman]

15543
I ran mine at 1 1/2" yesterday and with a little bit of coaxing ended up with this when I ran out of sap. I drew off what I could to finish under a controlled heat.

[bigschuss]

Thanks for everyone's suggestion.

We're out of sap now and waiting to collect more.

I shut down the evaporator last night with a full flue and syrup pan. Sap in the syrup pan is at about 58% sugar.

We're having a few days of unseasonably warm weather. Temp's near 60 degrees.

I hope the sap in the pans does not spoil.

Also, I hope the warm weather doesn't kill the sap run.

I'll restart when I get about 100 gallons or so of sap. This time, I'll try to run the pan at 1 1/2 -2 inches and see how it goes.

Appreciate all the feedback.

Mark

Mark...be careful with that "sweet" in the pan. When I first started I did something very similar with my Mason and by the time I got around to boiling again when I fired up the evaporator I got a funky smell. It did not take long. I lost the initial boil of 100 gallons of sap. The temps. look mild all week...spooky mild Thursday through Sunday. I would either 1) boil down what you have carefully to an inch or so and then finish on a turkey fryer or 2) fire your evaporator each day just at a boil to keep the sweet from spoiling.

[Buckfever]

I'm also boiling on a real evaporator for the first time and seem to be boiling away a lot of sap and not getting anything close to syrup. So from what I gather from the posts is that the pan needs to sort of break in before the sap begins to flow properly? Also I have a steam hood that's raised above the pan about 30" so I can watch what's going on in the pan. Of coarse some of the steam escapes around the hood. I'm wondering if I put an inline fan in the steam stack if it would draw more of the steam up the stack instead of the steam going out and around the hood?

[adk1]

Consistency is key if you keep messing with the float you are going to be mixing sap. Go down to an inch of sap. Just be watchful. Make sure you are ready cause your first draw is going to be a big one. Make sure sap is still going into your pans

[mspina14]

Mark...be careful with that "sweet" in the pan. When I first started I did something very similar with my Mason and by the time I got around to boiling again when I fired up the evaporator I got a funky smell. It did not take long. I lost the initial boil of 100 gallons of sap. The temps. look mild all week...spooky mild Thursday through Sunday. I would either 1) boil down what you have carefully to an inch or so and then finish on a turkey fryer or 2) fire your evaporator each day just at a boil to keep the sweet from spoiling.

Yeah, I agree. The sweet is not going to last with this warm weather.

I'll drain it and finish it in my turkey fryer. Hate to loose a couple gallons of syrup.

thanks.

Mark

[bigschuss]

from what I gather from the posts is that the pan needs to sort of break in before the sap begins to flow properly?

Not so much a break in....it's called "sweetening the pan." You just have to boil a lot more sap than you'd think to even begin to think about drawing off. Still, in a 2x4 hobby evaporator you should begin to see a hint of a gradient after the first 50 gallons of sap boiled. By 100 gallons I always have a clear and well defined gradient. At 150 gallons of boiled sap can draw off for the first time.

[SmellsLikeSyrupNH]

This was my gradient after about an hour and a half of boiling on Sunday....my 1st time using my new 2x6 evaporator. By the end of the day all 3 channels were dark, but I was still drawing off from my left channel, drew off about 2.5 gallons from my 125 gallons of 4.5% (after running through the RO) What caused my gradient to disappear? will I ever get it back? Is it because of the float box is feeding too slow? too fast? I kept my depth at about 1.5", my firing may have been too inconsistent, I was trying to put wood every 9 minutes or so, but when I open the door the boil does stop.

thanks everyone!

15568

[Sugarmaker]

This was my gradient after about an hour and a half of boiling on Sunday....my 1st time using my new 2x6 evaporator. By the end of the day all 3 channels were dark, but I was still drawing off from my left channel, drew off about 2.5 gallons from my 125 gallons of 4.5% (after running through the RO) What caused my gradient to disappear? will I ever get it back? Is it because of the float box is feeding too slow? too fast? I kept my depth at about 1.5", my firing may have been too inconsistent, I was trying to put wood every 9 minutes or so, but when I open the door the boil does stop.

thanks everyone!

15568

Gradient may have changed when you got into new sap. it will res establish as you boil more.
your doing good!
Regards,
Chris

[Big_Eddy]

This was my gradient after about an hour and a half of boiling on Sunday....my 1st time using my new 2x6 evaporator. By the end of the day all 3 channels were dark, but I was still drawing off from my left channel, drew off about 2.5 gallons from my 125 gallons of 4.5% (after running through the RO) What caused my gradient to disappear? will I ever get it back? Is it because of the float box is feeding too slow? too fast? I kept my depth at about 1.5", my firing may have been too inconsistent, I was trying to put wood every 9 minutes or so, but when I open the door the boil does stop.

thanks everyone!

15568
Your gradient is still there. It may not be visible, but if you were to test it, there will be a definite difference in concentration from the inlet (raw sap) to the outlet. Keep feeding sap in, letting steam off, and the syrup will come out.

Instead of worrying about "maintaining" the gradient, focus on trying to keep your evaporation rate as high and as consistent as possible, and you'll get the best performance possible out of your evaporator.

[Russell Lampron]

You will lose the boil when you fire. Try opening 1 door and throwing a few sticks in then do the same on the other side to help minimize that. Nine minutes is a long time,try adding wood every 5 minutes or so.

[mspina14]

Finally!

Got a gradient.

15753

But I think we drew off too quickly. We opened the draw off spigot all the way. The syrup rushed out, and the sap flooded in from the flue pan.

It screwed up our gradient.

I did some searching around on Mapletrader regarding how to draw off.

Most postings I read on the subject seemed to suggest that drawing off should be very slow and long, so that as the sap moves through the syrup pan, water evaporates. As the sap reaches the draw off point, it's turned to syrup and you can keep drawing off.

Is that correct?

Seems like the key is to try to match the draw off rate to the rate of evaporation?

Mark

[Sugarmaker]

Mark,
That's about right. On a small rig you may not get a continuous small stream of syrup. We don't get a continuous flow on our 3 x 10. More like a start and stop flow every 10-20 minutes.
When you draw off are you watching the temp spike above and drop below the set point?
Regards,
Chris

[mspina14]

Mark,
That's about right. On a small rig you may not get a continuous small stream of syrup. We don't get a continuous flow on our 3 x 10. More like a start and stop flow every 10-20 minutes.
When you draw off are you watching the temp spike above and drop below the set point?
Regards,
Chris

Thanks Chris.

We started out using the thermometer but haven't figured out a better way to set it every day. As I understand it, you have to unthread it from the evaporator, boil a pot of water, stick the thermometer probe in the boiling water, set the thermometer to zero with the set screw on the side, then rethread the thermometer back into the evaporator (the thermometer that came with evaporator is calibrate to start at zero. Every degree above zero is one degree above the temperature of boiling water for that day).

We've been using a refractometer to measure density to determine when to draw off. Because we have been drawing off too fast, we've just eye-balled when to stop the draw off. Most of our draw-offs lasted only 20 seconds.

Obviously, we were not doing this right. Although we did make about 2 1/2 gallons of syrup yesterday and the density of the finished product was 67.1 brix.

Is there a faster way to set the thermometer every day?

Mark