Converting wood to oil

[mwarren]

I know I have read a post about this in the past but here it goes again.

How many of you have converted a wood fired arch to oil. Did you find it worth the extra cost of oil to convert? I have a 30x8 leader drop flue and 300 taps. I have no pre-heater or RO. It sounds like I'll be using just over 2 gallons of oil to make one gallon of syrup. Is it worth it? It seems like it would be so much easier to turn on the switch and have an instant boil. Also, my arch gets so hot when it's at full speed that you can't hardly stand near it.

I have thought about forced draft and an insulated arch front but for $500 I can get a new burner and get a nice consistent boil without losing it every time I fire.

My understanding is that I could put a steel plate over the existing door opening and mount the burner directly to that. I also know that I would have to cover up the ash pit and line the entire arch with ceramic blanket. Any other things I would need to do?

Also, has anyone ever thought about using waste oil to fire. I know it isn't the most environmentally friendly thing to do but is it that much dirtier than regular oil? It sure would be cheaper!!!

I'm most interested to hear about wood to oil conversions, the waste oil thing is just an after thought.

Mike

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Mike,

I started to go to a waste oil burner instead of an airtight arch and wish I had but that was then and too late now. There is plenty of waste oil out there free for the hauling at least in my area, so it would have been a win, win situation. Either way, good luck. You could make a steel plate for the front of the evaporator and mount the burner into it and go from there. I could never justify $ 8 @ gallon of syrup for oil, but everyone is different. Without a preheater, you would likely be looking at 3 gallons or more per gallon of syrup unless you are boiling high sugar content sap.

[brookledge]

You will use 3 gallons of oil to make a gallon of syrup. So as Brandon said around $8.00 of oil to make a gallon of syrup is alot for some. If you go to oil you should look to an ro or at the very least a hood with a pre-heater. As for the modifications, yes you can modify your arch although it may not be as efficient as a oil arch because of the design of the wood arch. The grates need to come out and the burner needs to be lower than the center of the wood opening.
I'm sure others can offer advice as to how to do it. Or you can do a search in the previous post.
Either way if the labor of cutting the wood is a factor then go to oil.
AS far as waste oil goes the biggest factor to look into is whether the fumes and soot will harm or react to the pans.
I have heard of some waste oil burners burning out the heat exchangers because of the chemicals in the used oil.
Just need to check into it a little more.
Keith

[TapME]

I have a question, are you saying waste oil as in bio-diesel and or strained used cooking oil, or used motor oil and the sort?

[brookledge]

I was refering to used engine oil sometimes causing problems.
Keith

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If you could get the recycled oil out of heavy equipment and mix with the diesel oil they drain from the during servicing would be the ideal way.

[Dave Y]

I would never dream of going to oil. Wood is free for the taking in most places. Sometimes you just have to look for it. I would go with a air tight front and forced air. I would think that would be a better return on your investment. I made approx 30 gal of syrup per cord of wood. The wood just cost me alitte time and sweat. $8.00 a gal for oil is to much. With forced air I can have a boil in my back pan in 10 mins.
But if oil works best for you use it!

[802maple]

Here in Vermont used oil is illegal to use, but there is some study into making it legal

[325abn]

I dont think it will cost you 3 gal of oil for a gal of syrup unless your setup does not run well.

I am getting about 29 - 30 gal/hr with my little 2X4 raised flue using a 2.0 burner nozzle, so thats roughly a tad bit less than 3 gal of oil / gal of syrup. This is with %2 sap with %3 it would be about 2 gal of oil for a gal of syrup.

It took me this season to tweek my rig to where its at now.

It is nice to flip the switch and have a hard boil in about 5 minutes then be able to turn the switch off and have the rig cooled down enough to leave in about another 5 min. This benifit was a must for me to boil during the week.

Good luck!

[mwarren]

Thanks for all the reply's. I know that wood is free, and I hate to have to pay $6-$8 a gallon for oil but I also have an outdoor wood furnace that I heat my house with so I am kinda tired of cutting wood at the end of the summer.

My hope is to eleviate some of the extra work in the summer. I think that I would get a preheater and hood at the same time to try to cut down on oil used. My sap usually averages 2.5 (I have some really good roadside trees that mix with my soft maples to get 2.5) So I should do better than three gallons to one.

I also would like to close in the woodshed and turn that into extra space in the sugarhouse to have more room for guests/and extra shelves for syrup storage. The woodshed is approx. 12x8 so it would add decent space to my already 12x16 shack. There are pictures of my setup on my website for those that haven't seen it.

Mike

[saphead]

Just my 2 cents, the oil market is volitile @ the moment and may get worse @ any time.I checked out your set up,looks nice.A side addition or legthening wouldn't be to bad for more room,only time and $.If you want to spend less time on wood,an airtight arch w/ under and overfire air is the way to go,roughly 1/2 the wood and 30% increase in efficiency. Again only $.

[Brian]

I love the oil. For me I have enough things to tend to at times. Carlin saves me having someone tending the fire. I have no wood shed to tend to or wood to haul in. The oil truck comes, cuts, splits and stacks the wood into a 1000 gallon tank.The evaporator is at a full boil in about 5-6 min. and I don't have the equipment for wood. I find it easy to plow drive-ways and buy oil. Shut down is fast. I drain my holding tank empty, then shut down, the boil drops right off, drain the syrup petition and hold that into a buckett until i start next time. I am not saying it is the cheepist way to go. I know you get more BTU out of a cord of wood per gallon of oil.

[Sugarmaker]

I boiled with oil for years, man its nice for start up and especially for shut down or emergency SHUT DOWN situations. I saved an old probably inefficient oil burner that my dad used. I 'm sure a new Carlin type would run circles around it. I would consider converting my 3 x 10 to Oil if I couldn't cut wood, or was independently wealthy. I do get more exercise with the wood. For all the time I spend filling the wood shed it probably would pay for the oil? With all my free time I could spend more time with the family!!!!

Sugarmaker

[mwarren]

Well, I've made up my mind. Oil it is. I am going to switch real soon. The plan is to do the conversion this summer and do a bunch of test boils to see what works best for placement of the burner, insulating the arch, etc.

My plan is to take off the doors and build a plate that sits over the existing door hinges and mount the burner to the plate. I am also going to put a piece of sheet metal over the ash pit and cover it with ceramic blanket.

Any thoughts about placement of the burner, angle of the burner, or if I need to build a baffle inside the arch to deflect the heat/flame.

Also, should I install a damper in the flue pipe to retain some extra heat in the arch?

Thanks

Mike

[802maple]

I wouldn't cover the grates as you need room for combustion. I would take them out and have the whole area as fire chamber.

Typically the oil burner is set down 16 inches to the center of the burner from the pan.

By all means add a barometric damper the same size as your stack. They can be picked up from your local heating and hvac store most of the time.

The rest is hit and miss with a conversion

[mcmp]

I have the Carlin install specs that came with a burner for a evap. They show gun distance off the bottom, distance to target wall etc, etc. I would be happy to scan it and email them to you if you feel they would be helpful.

Paul

[mwarren]

That would be great if you could scan it and send it. You can email me at Mike@warrenfamilysugaring.com

Thanks

Mike

[mcmp]

That would be great if you could scan it and send it. You can email me at Mike@warrenfamilysugaring.com

Thanks

Mike

Mike;
The Carlin Book is in my shop. I will scan it tomorrow and email it to you later in the day. Hope its helpful.

Paul

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

You could take out the grates and put a layer or two of ceramic blanket in the bottom of the firepit against the floor.

[mcmp]

You could take out the grates and put a layer or two of ceramic blanket in the bottom of the firepit against the floor.

Exactly Right. Carlin shows a flat fire chamber bottom on the spec/set up sheet for my sons 2 x 8, 2006 D&G Oil Fired Evap.

Paul

[mcmp]

Mike;
The Carlin Book is in my shop. I will scan it tomorrow and email it to you later in the day. Hope its helpful.

Paul

Mike;
I have scanned and sent you (by email) the Carlin oil burner Spec/setup pages for my sons new 2006, 2x8 oil fired evap. I am a slow dial up and had to send reduced resolution images. However on my end they are very readable and can be blown up. If you have any problem whatsoever reading them, I will print them in hi res and mail them to you by US Mail. Please let me know if you have any problems reading them.

Paul

[mwarren]

Paul,

I got them and can read them just fine. Thanks for taking the time to do that for me. I am anxious to switch over. I hope it is the right decision....I have about 365 days till I know whether it was worth it or not. I'll let you know this time next year.

Thanks again
Mike

[mcmp]

Paul,

I got them and can read them just fine. Thanks for taking the time to do that for me. I am anxious to switch over. I hope it is the right decision....I have about 365 days till I know whether it was worth it or not. I'll let you know this time next year.

Thanks again
Mike

Mike;
Your welcome ! When you convert to oil you will never look back at wood, its wonderful ( in my opinion) ha ha

Paul

[Mike]

Hey Mike, If your looking for a burner I have one.......Let me know....

[mwarren]

What type of burner is it? How many gallons per hour? Is it used or new? Do you use oil or wood?

Thanks

Mike

[Mike]

I use oil....Its a used one I got...Came out of a house furnace....Ill give you the specs as soon as I can....

[Mike]

Its a carland burner model 150n-3r... 1.0-1.85 gal hr....11" tube.....$150

[davey]

I converted my Waterloo 2 1/2 x 8 from wood to oil this year and am very happy with it. I put a layer of the firebrick in the bottom and then covered the sides, ramp and the bottom with 2" thick 2300 degree ceramic blanket I bought fom the kilnguy on e-bay. For the flue pan end I covered the sides with the blanket and then as I have a raised flue filled the open space with with brick and sand except for about 5 inches directly after the ramp and at the end of the pan. I made a flat plate to mount the exhaust pipe on as I didn't need the old version. For the gun mount I made a pattern out of thin aluminum that covered almost the entire front, transferred it to steel, cut it out, and bolted it on. I cut a large rectangular hole just a little narrower and the same height as my wood loading doors were and made a 2nd plate just for the gun. This was mounted with slotted holes so that I could adjust the flame height. I am using a Beckett 3.0 to 7.5 gph burner with a 4 gph 80 degree nozzle. With oil you will need the 80 over the 60 to spread the heat better. Put a pressure guage on the burner and be sure to run a minimum of 100 lbs fuel pressure. If your heat is a little below what you need you can raise the pressure to gain more heat, but I'd stop at a heating supply store and get several nozzles, they are only about 5 dollars each. When you find the right one, get a spare for the inevitable nozzle plug up at a crtitical time.
My favorite part though is that I think it adds about two hours a day of productive time as opposed to start-up and shut-down time being less efficient with wood. Cost wise, yeah,the oil is more expensive than wood which most of us can get free or at low cost, but I look at those two hours as more time with my 5 year old son, and that is worth whatever I spend for it. Any questions I may help with or even pictures just drop me a note or if you are ever in western NY stop in.
Dave

[mwarren]

Dave,

Thanks for the reply. For some reason I never read this post when you sent it. I am just re-reading through some old posts and realized that you sent a reply that I never actually saw.

I just got my burner the other day and I had a steel plate made to mount it where the doors were. I am picking up an oil tank this weekend so hopefully I will be able to get things going soon and do a test boil with water to see how things go.

What type of fuel do you guys use? Do you have to worry about the fuel jelling up? DO you use Kerosene instead?

Also, Do you guys ever have problems with mice chewing up the ceramic blanket inside the arch for a nest?

Can't wait to see how it works. The time saved with wood is gonna be a huge help.

Mike

[ziggy]

Wood is free? Send me 20 face cords. What is your time worth, cutting wood takes a fair amount of time. Cost of running the saws, fuel for the tractor, etc. If you figure out the number of hours that you have into wood and what your equipment usage costs are, there is not much difference in cost between wood and oil. If you don't charge for your time cutting wood, come cut for me, I like free help. I used to use wood, but oil takes a lot less labor costs. Just my 2 cents worth.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

IF a person is retired or has plenty of time to cut wood i think it is cost effect. my 2 cents

RICH

[mwarren]

Ziggy,

I must have worded my post wrong...I was up late typing and meant to write that the time saved with OIL will be a huge help. I am switching from wood to oil. Believe me, My time cutting wood is not free!!! That is why I decided to switch. By the time you do all the work cutting, stacking, and hauling wood, you have paid for the oil that you will burn. At least in my case. It isn't for everyone...Each situation is different. For me it seems like a good idea.

Oh, by the way, No thanks on cutting wood for you...:)

Mike

[brookledge]

I know oil is alot easier but it is hard for me to swallow spending $2,000.00 on oil if I was to switch. As long as I can get slab wood free and sometimes even delivered for free I can put the labor into the cutting. It takes me about 50 hrs to cut, split, and stack 12 cord. I get 25 gallons of syrup per cord of wood
Keith

[Mike]

I filled my oil tanks yesterday!!!!!! Not bad....Took 160 gals of oil to make 150 gals of syrup.......Last year it took 450 gals of oil for 140 gals of oil.....$1200 last year $450 this year....GOTTA LUV A RO !!!!!!!!!!!

[Grade "A"]

When you see numbers like that you start to see how spending the money on an R.O. will pay you back in the long run (or not so long run). But it is hard to shell out that much money when you only have 200 or so taps. If you only burnt about 1/3 the oil this year your time boiling must of been cut by 1/3 also.

[maplecrest]

when i went from wood to oil, labor to get the wood in the fire box was killing me. at the time 1993 i figured that i would make money in syrup up to $2.00 a gallon for oil.i was getting 1 gallon of syrup to 3 gallons of oil, when oil hit 1.90 i bought the r/o. which paid for it self in one season of oil savings. wood is labor intensive. the family farm labor is few and far between. the time i once spent cutting wood for the sugar house is now spent in the sugar bush. now i get 1/2 gallon per tap. i will say alot of wood in bush goes to waste cut 4 foot and left on the ground. but time in this business is money. jeff

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Well said, you have to do what works best for you. I have time to cut wood and 8 cords of wood will do well over 100 gallon of syrup for me and the wood is free and all the cost is the maintenance and operation of equipment and fuel which doesn't amount to much since I have to have a tractor for sap pickup and hauling and I paid $ 360 for a Stihl 310 about 6 years ago and it still runs like a top and uses 1+ gallon of fuel to cut 7 or 8 cords of wood. My ratio is usually 50 to 1 or higher, so it would be a lot of oil for me and an RO isn't practical for me and I couldn't see spending $ 700 to $ 800 per year for oil.

[mwarren]

I finally got the burner mounted where the doors once were. I had a custom plate made to fit right over the door opening and I used the pins from the door hinges to hold the plate onto the front of the arch. I have done a test boil and it all seems to work well. I put cold water in the pans and it was approximately 40 degrees when I did the test. It went from cold water to hard boil in about 8 minutes. WOW what a difference. With wood it would have taken 45 minutes to get to that point. Can't wait for the real world test in four and a half months.

I have a few pics of the new setup on my website. I can't wait to get more photos this season to add to the photo album. Check them out.

Mike

[Sugarmaker]

Mike,
Very nice pictures on the website. Nice sugarhouse. Your conversion to oil looks like a good set up.

Regards,
Chris