What is going on!!!!!!!!

[Fred Henderson]

Can I have too much fire in the fire box? I have boiled 3 or 4 times with my new rig and the syrup pan after each draw becomes too shallow and sometimes I am not even drawing syrup.. I have tryed drawing just a slight trickel so as to allow the float to maintain the level. I have a 3 foot fire box so I turn a few blocks of wood cross ways near the back and fill the front near the doors. Each time that I fire I push a few blocks to the rear. My pan level is at 1 1/2" but I would like to lower it but don't dare to. I think that the season will be over before I get it figured out.

[nhmaple48]

Can I have too much fire in the fire box? I have boiled 3 or 4 times with my new rig and the syrup pan after each draw becomes too shallow and sometimes I am not even drawing syrup.. I have tryed drawing just a slight trickel so as to allow the float to maintain the level. I have a 3 foot fire box so I turn a few blocks of wood cross ways near the back and fill the front near the doors. Each time that I fire I push a few blocks to the rear. My pan level is at 1 1/2" but I would like to lower it but don't dare to. I think that the season will be over before I get it figured out.

Is your front pan foaming a lot? Keep the foam down and it will run much easier.

[tapper]

Fred,
I have had the same exact problem. I too am running 1 1/2 inches in the pans and dont dare go any lower.The sap runs here have been so small that I cant boil for any length of time to get a handle on it. One day the feed tank was low, the fire was about out, sap coming through the valve but only 1/4" in the syrup pan right after a draw. Good thing I ran a water line to the new sugar house because the pans got flooded right now! Another problem I have had is when the temp is close I check with the hydrometer. It goes from not being syrup to being over done in a matter of a few seconds. Then when I do draw the syrup pan wont refill or even out as fast as I like even with a slow draw like you said. I am defoaming and keeping that in check. I am stumped on this one. It might require a call to Leader. HaHa if I do call I'm sure it will be something stupid.

[3% Solution]

Hi everyone,
Keeping in mind I'm just guessing here.
If you have a float on your flue pan and one on your syrup pan just run the flue pan a bit deeper, say 1" - 1 1/2" deeper. Your flue pan is going to crank anyway because of the way it is built. By doing this your sap level is higher in your flue pan than your syrup pan, so ... sap runs down hill (other things do too, but we're boiling sap here).
I have this problem with my 2x5 homemade rig, so I just flood the "float box" with sap right after I draw off and put a layer of wood over the top, which allows the sap to build back into the syrup pan.
Had to figure that one out, lots of pucker factor before I did though!!
Hope this helps.
Happy boiling.

Dave

[tapper]

LOL....... pucker factor I like that one.

[Fred Henderson]

Fred,
I have had the same exact problem. I too am running 1 1/2 inches in the pans and dont dare go any lower.The sap runs here have been so small that I cant boil for any length of time to get a handle on it. One day the feed tank was low, the fire was about out, sap coming through the valve but only 1/4" in the syrup pan right after a draw. Good thing I ran a water line to the new sugar house because the pans got flooded right now! Another problem I have had is when the temp is close I check with the hydrometer. It goes from not being syrup to being over done in a matter of a few seconds. Then when I do draw the syrup pan wont refill or even out as fast as I like even with a slow draw like you said. I am defoaming and keeping that in check. I am stumped on this one. It might require a call to Leader. HaHa if I do call I'm sure it will be something stupid.

I would be willing to pay for that phone call.

[John Burton]

sounds interesting , could your pre heater be vapor locking partially when you draw? i have had that happen at draw off sometimes. what i try to do is as i get close to syrup is use lighter firings and or slow my blower down to make sure the sap flow will keep up with the draw speed then right after draw put the wood right bak to it. another question i have would be with your drop flue you should have only one float. but is the flow to the front pan controlled with plugs or with ball valves? if its using valves is open all the way because i always thought on a drop flue the front and back pan should maintain the same level

[tapper]

Fred,
If I make the call you will be the first to know and no charge for the call!

John,
I have tried everything you mentioned and made no difference. I have plugs so the flue pan and syrup pan are wide open to eachother. I keep getting very small sap runs 75 maybe 100 gal everyother day and I cant boil long enough to get a handle on what is actually happening. Soon the season will be over and next year will be a whole new game.

[markcasper]

Fred, I am not sure who came up with the idea of boiling at 1 inch? Especially a wood-fired. When I get down below an 11/4 inch on the side of syrup pan coming from the flue pan, I run into trouble too. I have a drop-flue and it takes a good amount of time for the level to "catch-up" to that what is being drawn. I wouldn't worry about boiling ultra- thin. The sap quality and freshness is where 90% of the worry needs to be.

My front pan is warped bad from previously burning it years back and i am too cheap to get a different pan. I have to run a little deeper to compensate for the dips and valleys.

Someone said that Brad from Leader only used defoamer 6 times last year. I have to defoam the front pan and flue pan practically after each firing. I don't know how can not use it! My front pan has boiled over a couple times this year for me "experementing" with minimal use. What a mess!

I'd like to ask Mr Gilian to come and fire mine for an hour and NOT use any defoamer.
This commercial syrup is really bad to get the foam knocked down. I never have understood why this is. Anyone else have the same situation?

Fred, one last thing; I put the larger fire wood on the syruping off side. Even a stick of green sometimes. This seems to help keep that side from getting too hot and interfering with the draws. It may help you in your situation. If your burning ultra fine dry wood in the whole firebox, that may be some of the problem.

[Fred Henderson]

sounds interesting , could your pre heater be vapor locking partially when you draw? i have had that happen at draw off sometimes. what i try to do is as i get close to syrup is use lighter firings and or slow my blower down to make sure the sap flow will keep up with the draw speed then right after draw put the wood right bak to it. another question i have would be with your drop flue you should have only one float. but is the flow to the front pan controlled with plugs or with ball valves? if its using valves is open all the way because i always thought on a drop flue the front and back pan should maintain the same level

The flow into the flue pan from the float is control by a ball valve and now this is becoming interesting. I have to wonder if it is a full port valve I will have a look when it cools down.

[Fred Henderson]

Fred, I am not sure who came up with the idea of boiling at 1 inch? Especially a wood-fired. When I get down below an 11/4 inch on the side of syrup pan coming from the flue pan, I run into trouble too. I have a drop-flue and it takes a good amount of time for the level to "catch-up" to that what is being drawn. I wouldn't worry about boiling ultra- thin. The sap quality and freshness is where 90% of the worry needs to be.

My front pan is warped bad from previously burning it years back and i am too cheap to get a different pan. I have to run a little deeper to compensate for the dips and valleys.

Someone said that Brad from Leader only used defoamer 6 times last year. I have to defoam the front pan and flue pan practically after each firing. I don't know how can not use it! My front pan has boiled over a couple times this year for me "experementing" with minimal use. What a mess!

I'd like to ask Mr Gilian to come and fire mine for an hour and NOT use any defoamer.
This commercial syrup is really bad to get the foam knocked down. I never have understood why this is. Anyone else have the same situation?

Fred, one last thing; I put the larger fire wood on the syruping off side. Even a stick of green sometimes. This seems to help keep that side from getting too hot and interfering with the draws. It may help you in your situation. If your burning ultra fine dry wood in the whole firebox, that may be some of the problem.

I am using some really dry wood. Hickory that has been cut and under cover for a year. I am going to get to the bottom of this or there will be a raised flue sitting in there.

[mcmp]

When your in the " To Shallow Condition' try putting down pressure on the float. See if in reality its not already sitting on the bottom of the float chanber (pocket). I helped a friend a few years ago that had this same complaint. The float chamber (pocket) was not designed properly and would not allow the float to drop low enough to allow a good release of sap from the flue pan. It would drop and sit on the bottom of the pocket allowing only small flow of sap into the syrup pan. Thus on a good drawoff, he would have a 'dangerous' shallow condition. The remedy for his problem was to have the bottom of the float chambers (pockets) right and left cut off and the bottom lowered. This allowed the float to drop on demand and pass good flows of sap from the flue pan to the syrup pan.

Algiers recognized this potiential problem and built their pockets that extended quite a ways below the top rail. The float on their Evaps could really drop on demand.

Paul

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

You guys really have me puzzled. I am running a 2x8 Leader drop flue and never seem to have this problem. I do get too shallow from time to time just due to the fact that the entire evaporator is too shallow. May be a problem with the float on Fred's evaporator as the evaporator is a different design that Patrick is used to building, but on Tapper's, I am not sure unless it is a float defect. I can't imagine Leader would have a problem with their float system, certainly not on mine, but it could have been manufactured with some defect.

[mcmp]

When your in the " To Shallow Condition' try putting down pressure on the float. See if in reality its not already sitting on the bottom of the float chanber (pocket). I helped a friend a few years ago that had this same complaint. The float chamber (pocket) was not designed properly and would not allow the float to drop low enough to allow a good release of sap from the flue pan. It would drop and sit on the bottom of the pocket allowing only small flow of sap into the syrup pan. Thus on a good drawoff, he would have a 'dangerous' shallow condition. The remedy for his problem was to have the bottom of the float chambers (pockets) right and left cut off and the bottom lowered. This allowed the float to drop on demand and pass good flows of sap from the flue pan to the syrup pan.

Algiers recognized this potiential problem and built their pockets that extended quite a ways below the top rail. The float on their Evaps could really drop on demand.

Paul

Ooops, did not see till now that you have a drop flue...sorry

Paul

[tapper]

Brandon,

I am sure I don't have a float problem. The level in the flue pan I think is ok when this is going on. But the bottom of the openings in the syrup pan are not flush with the bottom. It's like the divider was not cut completley out and there is part of the divider maybe 1/8 to 3/16 high in each opening. I wonder if this is part of the problem? Another detail that I wasnt accustom to was the directions with my pans was to put 1" of gasket under the flue pan and 1/2" under the syrup pan. I wonder if somehow that may be the difference?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Jon,

I think all pans at least leader have that small piece of raised wall there and I would guess it is for strength and maybe to have a small seperation between the sections. As far as gasket, I have 1/4" gasket the entire length of mine so the pans are completely level.

You need several hundred gallon of sap to be able to play with to get that thing cranking. I have never had any issues like that with mine and our pans are identical other than yours are 6" wider. It's new and it takes some time to get used to and you need some long boiling days to be able to play with it and get the hang of it.

[powerdub]

I just saw this thread and thougt I would comment. I have noticed this yeat for the first time that the syrup seems to lock up mid pan. I will be drawing, the level goes down, the temp goes up but the float does not let any sap in. I use my scoop to push the normal flow and things seem to get going again. First time I have seen this in 25 years of boiling. I have never had a flow lock up in the middle of the pan before so it just reinforces the old saying never say never. don't judge anything in sugaring in one year of operation.

[tapper]

Brandon,

I thought maybe that was the way Leader was making all their pans now. My old 2x6 wasnt that way and when I saw this new pan was this way I wondered right away if it would hinder flow. And I totally agree I need more sap per boil but we just are'nt getting it this year.

Like Scott is saying the flow seems to lock up while taking a draw. As I Draw Syrup I continually check with the hydrometer. Toward the end of one draw in particular in just a few seconds time the sryup was so dense the hydrometer almost popped right out of the cup. Then in the same instant it was'nt syrup any more. I defoam and I keep the syrup pan moving in the direction of flow with the scoop as I have done for 10 years hoping to eliminate syrup in the 2nd comartment but again like Scott is saying it must be just a different situation for this year.

[ibby458]

This sure has been a learning year for many of us. I've hardly used any defoamer this year, none at all for several boils. Yesterday, the grade dropped to B, and it seemed that I had to defoam hourly.

I'm running my syrup pan 1-1/4" deep. The next notch on the float ladder is 3/4, and I don't dare. I seem to be making syrup in 3 channels of the pan, and I'm OK with that. Long draws, not very close together. Strangely, the first few boils, I drew off a gallon every 20 minutes. Then it changed for no reason I can see to 2 to 2-1/2 gallons every 45-60 minutes. I'm firing at the same frequency with the same wood mix. The only real variable seems to be sugar content.

I draw off at a very light trickle. If I try to draw faster, the incoming sap doesn't push the syrup forward well, causing more mixing. When the thermometer reads 7, I start drawing and keep drawing and testing with the hydrometer until it drops below syrup. Quite often, it gets a LOT denser partway thru the draw (2nd and 3rd channel syrup?), so I draw it off until some lower brix syrup mixes in so the whole batch is about right.

I think that syrup making is, and will always be, part science, part art with a little VooDoo mixed in. Each rig is different, and can even vary from draw to draw. We just gotta learn to adapt and roll with the punches, until we figure out the way to run it.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Towards the end of the season this year I was having a problem making syrup in the front of the next section over from drawoff and the entire drawoff section. All of a sudden the thermometer would go from 7 or 8 to 15+ in like 30 seconds or less. I was blaming it on not doing a mid season cleaning. I flushed the syrup pan 4 or 5 times and filtered the contents and put it back in, but the film that develops was never cleaned off with vinegar and it would take an eternity to scrub it off by hand if it was even possible. Maybe it had something to do with the year, but I have had this problem before when I don't clean off the buildup film on the bottom of the syrup pan after about 50 gallon of syrup.

[3% Solution]

Good morning all,
Ibby; I guess you hit the nail right on the head,"part science, part art with a little VooDoo mixed in. Each rig is different, and can even vary from draw to draw. We just gotta learn to adapt and roll with the punches, until we figure out the way to run it."
Maybe that's what makes it so addictive?
We also went to "B" after a very short spell of "Dark".
**** I hate the way the darker stuff boils, came as close as I ever have to burning my pan (even was getting that smell), yup you got that right, "MEGA PUCKER FACTOR", thought I was all done.
You guys keep playing with your flows and draws and one day it will hit you right in the face as to what it is.
I still think it is the distance from where the sap comes in if you have only one float.
I am looking at 16' from entrance to draw off, it will take a few minutes for the sap to catch up, that's why I flood the float box, so as to push it along a bit.
Well anyway, that's what works for me.
I think I'm close to being done this week.
Happy boiling.

Dave

[tapper]

Ibby & Brandon,

Both of your experiences this season mirror mine pretty much to the T. I'ts been different for sure! HaHa and next year we will have a whole new set of experiences to talk about.

[Fred Henderson]

My new expencience may be a new Leader raised flue.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I apologize to Fred and anyone else I may have offended about the float box design. I was just thinking aloud that he may have changed the float box design as he changed the design on Fred's evaporator.

[tapper]

Fred,
Did you boil with a raised flue in the past?

[Fred Henderson]

Fred,
Did you boil with a raised flue in the past?

No, I had a 3 section flat pan that I built myself, even had a float, hood and preheater on it. I could make a gallon every 90 minutes or so.

[tapper]

When I ordered my new evaporator from Leader last spring I asked Brad Gillilan what the difference between raised and drop flue is. He said stick with what you started boiling on which for me was a drop flue. Give yourself more time to get used to the drop flue. It may take a few seasons. I am sure changing to a raised flue will take time to figure out also. Also from reading other posts in this thread it seems some of our encounters may be just weird happenings unique to this season. I will talk to Leader this week and pass the info on to you. Like I said before I am sure it's something simple. Sometimes we are standing so close to the problem that we never see it.

[John Burton]

well put tapper, thats why im going back to drop flues as its what i prefer best lot of advantages to raised but i was always a hard head you know ford chevy dodge who make the best truck . I always say the smae thing when there all running their great when they break it sucks after that its anyones guess

[Fred Henderson]

I went to see my friend boil with his last night. He also bought one like mine from the same guy. He does not have a hood or preheater. His just rolls happily along. I think that I may be fireing ( loading too much wood) to hard and that foaming may be a problem by not allowing the sap to flow into the syrup pan. I have to boil this afternoon and I will do a few things different. The sap is coming into the float between 140 and 200+ degree. When I look into the hood that stuff is really dancing in there. It is also noisey when boiling that hard.

[tapper]

Fred,
The noisier the better. When the back pan is quiet there is too much foam. Even with the foam under control I have had problems with the syrup pan depth recovering. Let me know how your changes worked for you.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Fred,

Try putting at least 2 drops of defoamer every 10 to 15 minutes on each side of the flue pan today and see how that works for you. You want that thing to sound like a beast.

[3% Solution]

Good morning,
Do let us know how things go today for you.
Stopped in to see a guy and his wife yesterday, he was not having a good day; burnt his pan in the morning, then when I was there he was making syrup in the center of the pan, wife was giving tours, so I jumped in a couple of times to help him out (didn't do much, just an extra set of hands)
One thing is for sure, the language in most sugarhouses are pretty much the same when things aren't going well!!
Fred give it some time and experiment, you'll get it (because you are determined). Then you will be cruising right along having fun.
We're almost done for the season.
Good luck today!

Dave

[Fred Henderson]

Brandon, I will say this that the last time that I boiled I was useing some very dry wood. It did sound like a beast and it was almost ready to walk across the floor. I thought that I might have to tie it down.

[blackstrapking]

Ive been having alot of these similar problems with my new rig mainly in the syrup pan. I thew in the towel last night when my syup pan got a little crispy. The whole point about burning really dry wood makes sense to me. I also think I need a longer themometer to get more of an accurate reading. I think what did me in last night was a combination of dry wood, and taking the syrup too far. Im gonna call it good at 66 Gallons of syrup. I wish everyone the best of luck in whats left to the season. I'm still tickled pink with my first real rig.

[Russell Lampron]

Fred don't be rushing off to the Leader store before you give this rig a chance. Boiling on a real evaporator is a big change from a flat pan and it will take some trial and error (sometimes a lot of error) before you get it right. I don't know about the sap in NY but I have experienced some strange things this season with NH sap.

It took Royalmaple a while to figure out his new evaporator and I am sure Ibby can say the same about his. I thought I had mine figured out years ago but after going to a school in Bristol,VT this year I changed the way I fire my rig completely and like the results.

Russ

[tapper]

Fred,
I made the call. # 1 suggestion keep the foam under control which many guys on here already said. #2 suggestion dont have so hot of a fire. I know in my case I've had stack temps of 1400 degrees thats just a wee bit warm. 800 to 900 is what you want. They said these new airtight arches are capable of burning so hot that it will create these situations and not controlling the foam compounds the matter. I thought I was keeping the foam under control but maybe I'm not? Hope I get a few more boils in to experiment more.

[Fred Henderson]

I boiled for 4 hours today and things finally went well, but I was still on the alert for something to go shallow. My stack temp never got over 500 degree. I ran the steam stack damper half open. Preheat temp varied from 200+ to 100. I was trying to keep it at 150 but with some real dry wood I couldn't. I was fireing with a mixture of very dry wood and some that was cut last fall but was outside uncovered. I only loaded the fire box half full or about 2 layers of wood. The next time that I boil I will try running the preheater hotter. I don't see what difference it would make if the prehearter was hotter. I did defoam just before each fireing.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Fred,

These guys are right as it does take some time, especially going to a flued evaporator makes it a different ball game. You probably have all the evaporator you ever need, just got to learn the "ins" and "outs"!

Glad you had a good day, how much sap did you boil off in 4 hours??

[danno]

Brandon, I was going to ask the same question. How many gph's are you guys boiling on those new, fancy rigs? I've got to push my older 30x8 full hilt to get near 50.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Danno,

I average around 50 gph including startup and shutdown and slightly higher than that on a good day. I am hoping to make some changes and get significantly higher rate than that next year.

[Fred Henderson]

Fred,

These guys are right as it does take some time, especially going to a flued evaporator makes it a different ball game. You probably have all the evaporator you ever need, just got to learn the "ins" and "outs"!

Glad you had a good day, how much sap did you boil off in 4 hours??

I am not sure but maybe 300 gals +.

[tapper]

Oh another thing I learned with the call to Leader today. The firebox should be kept at least 2/3 full of wood. If you let the firebox get too empty you lose too much boil on refill making the pans flood and creating a bad situation in the syrup pan.

[3% Solution]

Alright Fred!!!!
Are we having fun yet???
A flued evaporator will really crank as the others have said.
If it ain't making noise it ain't boiling.
Even my little rig rumbles.
This is a sickness, it has to be, no one in their right mind would watch water boil!!!!
**** fun though!

Dave

[Fred Henderson]

Oh another thing I learned with the call to Leader today. The firebox should be kept at least 2/3 full of wood. If you let the firebox get too empty you lose too much boil on refill making the pans flood and creating a bad situation in the syrup pan.

Just what kid of a bad situation in the syrup were they referring too?

[tapper]

Suddenly flooding the pans mixes less condensed sap with denser syrup or almost syrup and possibly having syrup in the wrong compartments of the syrup pan. Putting less wood in more often would be the way to go. I have been burning the firebox about empty and filling it 3/4 full. When I do this it does flood the pans. Not a good thing to do. Keeping a steady even flow of fresh sap into the float box will help keep a more uniform draw off.

[Russell Lampron]

Whose watching water boil? I watch sap boil, concentrated at that. I think it is the smell of the steam that does it. You get your nosterals full of that sweet maple scent and you want more more more.

Glad you had a good day Fred. I think what Tapper is talking about is the intermixing of the sweet from the front pan with the sap in the flue pan when the fire gets too low then the rush of not as dense sap coming in when the temp comes back up again.

Russ

[Fred Henderson]

It looks like after this warm spell that we may get another run. I will be able to learn a little more about boiling with it. I have been making syrup but I just want to be able to run it not so deep. Who knows the forest tent catapillars may just stripe all the maple leaves this year and that will shut us down far a couple of years.

[Russell Lampron]

Fred lets hope that the Forest Tent Catapillar problem isn't as bad this year. No one wants to have to take a year or two off.

Russ

[Fred Henderson]

I know I sure don't want to. I will turn 65 in june and 2 years is a long time for me. Who knows a time out for me and I may never be able to start again.

[802maple]

I guess Leader needs to go to evaporator firing school . If you don't let your fire get down in the first place it won't have to come back. I guess they haven't heard that if you add alittle wood often than you won't lose your boil. I have seen alot of sugarmakers open there door and keep adding wood enough to keep a locomotve going when all they have to do is every 3-4 minutes add a stick or 2 to the fire and it keeps burning at its best.

[Russell Lampron]

On my evaporator I put about 3 sticks in 1 door and then 3 more sticks in the other door about 5 minutes later. My evaporator likes to have a layer of coals and a layer of wood and not much more. This keeps the fire hot and the boil consistent in the front pan. When I can really pay attention to it I can almost have a constant trickle out of the draw off valve.

Russ

[802maple]

Sounds right to me,

[saphead]

Best thing is a cheapo egg timer,fire quickly,set timer @ 5min.,ding,fire quickly,set timer @ 5min., ding,fire quickly,set timer @ 5min.,ding... by the end of a 10 hr. boil you want to smash that little dinger!!!!... but it keeps the most even boil.