boiling temp app

[thbarrons]

Hey everyone. Getting ready for the season in Northern Michigan. I'm too lazy to boil water to calibrate my thermometer and do basic math...:lol:...so I made a web app that calculates it for me based on Weather Underground data and the location services of my iPhone. It should work on any mobile phone. Check it out and use it if you want...

https://www.saptapapps.com/

Tip: Once the app opens in your browser you can use "Add to Home screen", it has a nice icon.

Tapatalk users...please note clicking the link to my app doesn't work from within Tapatalk. They display external links within their app and this doesn't allow the location services to work. iPhone/Safari users can click the Safari compass icon in the lower right corner of the tapatalk window to launch it properly. Android/Chrome users can click the menu in the upper right (looks like three dots) and choose the option for "Open with" and that should properly launch it in the browser.

[Evets]

Wow. That was instantaneous!

[psparr]

Had a little trouble at first. Clicked on the link through the Tapatalk app and it didn't work. Opened it up in a browser and it worked. That's pretty cool! Thanks.

[thbarrons]

Thanks for the feedback just checked it in tapatalk myself and see what you mean I'm going to look into that and see if there's a fix.

[mitten mapler]

thanks it works great i was gonna print a chart off and hang it in the shack with the boil rates at various pressure rates not longer needed

[mellondome]

Are you accounting for current elivation above sea level or just barometric pressure adjusted to sea level?

[thbarrons]

Good question mellondome. I'm not doing anything with elevation and that should not technically be necessary. The only reason water has a different boiling point at higher elevations is a function of the atmospheric pressure at higher altitudes. So it's possible to use an altitude corrected calculation. Here's what I'm doing...

I'm using the pressure readings from Weather Underground which are calibrated using MSLP (mean sea level pressure).
https://www.wunderground.com/blog/PWSmet/pws-updates-quality-control-improvements

And I'm basically using the calculation of Table 2 found on this page and several others on the web.
http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Calib-boil.html which is:
Boiling point = 49.161 * Ln (in. Hg) + 44.932

The one thing I would recommend in regards to elevation is that you know the location of your closest weather station the app used for its calculation. I report that right under the temperature readings. If your boiling at a drastically different elevation than where the reading came from you might want to make an adjustment. That's actually something I might try and add to my calculation here soon. As mobile devices get better at reporting their elevation, I could techically correct it against the difference in elevation to the weather station.

[SognSyrup]

Good stuff. Thanks! Nice work.

[Ray_Nagle]

Very nice, thanks.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

That's really cool, thanks.

[Chickenman]

thanks for the app. another useful tool.

[regor0]

Nice work, keep it up.

[littleTapper]

Very slick, thanks for making this!

[Jacob]

Just wanted to say Thank You for the app you made I love it

Hey everyone. Getting ready for the season in Northern Michigan. I'm too lazy to boil water to calibrate my thermometer and do basic math...:lol:...so I made a web app that calculates it for me based on Weather Underground data and the location services of my iPhone. It should work on any mobile phone. Check it out and use it if you want...

https://www.saptapapps.com/

Tip: Once the app opens in your browser you can use "Add to Home screen", it has a nice icon.

Tapatalk users...please note clicking the link to my app doesn't work from within Tapatalk. They display external links within their app and this doesn't allow the location services to work. iPhone/Safari users can click the Safari compass icon in the lower right corner of the tapatalk window to launch it properly. Android/Chrome users can click the menu in the upper right (looks like three dots) and choose the option for "Open with" and that should properly launch it in the browser.

[KV Sappers]

Have to add my big Thank You also. I've used your app since you posted it to get me within ballpark of syrup. I would check the app everyday I went to boil and if it said 219 when I hit 219 and tested the syrup in my hydrometer it was spot on. Thank you again.

[mellondome]

Nice work, keep it up.


Good question mellondome. I'm not doing anything with elevation and that should not technically be necessary. The only reason water has a different boiling point at higher elevations is a function of the atmospheric pressure at higher altitudes. So it's possible to use an altitude corrected calculation. Here's what I'm doing...

I'm using the pressure readings from Weather Underground which are calibrated using MSLP (mean sea level pressure).
https://www.wunderground.com/blog/PWSmet/pws-updates-quality-control-improvements

And I'm basically using the calculation of Table 2 found on this page and several others on the web.
http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Calib-boil.html which is:
Boiling point = 49.161 * Ln (in. Hg) + 44.932

The one thing I would recommend in regards to elevation is that you know the location of your closest weather station the app used for its calculation. I report that right under the temperature readings. If your boiling at a drastically different elevation than where the reading came from you might want to make an adjustment. That's actually something I might try and add to my calculation here soon. As mobile devices get better at reporting their elevation, I could techically correct it against the difference in elevation to the weather station.

I ask only because my Samsung phone has a barometer built into it. So it gives me the actual pressure where the phone is at. ( Also great for measuring elevation change on lines).

I also now have a weather station next to the sugarhouse.

[thbarrons]

Thanks for the feedback everyone glad to hear the app is getting used. Still waiting for a good run to boil up here in Northern Michigan.


I also now have a weather station next to the sugarhouse.

Mellondome, that's cool you have a weather station at your shack. Is it registered with WeatherUnderground and is it getting reported to my app?

[lulugrein]

Thanks! One less gadget that I have to buy:)

[mellondome]

It shows up in the app.
Being at 2000+ ft elevation, there is just over 2" Hg difference in msl pressure and actual pressure.

[lafite]

Great App! Thank you! strange that I have a gold star rated weather station and it used my neighbors station instead.

[wobbletop]

Cool app and thanks for sharing.

But... don't you still have to calibrate your thermometer?

[BobMac]

I'am using a Motorola droid,can't seem to figure out how to save it on my app screen ?? any help ?

[mellondome]

It isn't an android app... it is a webpage. Save a shortcut to your home screen

[thbarrons]

Cool app and thanks for sharing.

But... don't you still have to calibrate your thermometer?

Yes. You should still calibrate your thermometer. The point of my app being that you just don't have to do it that often anymore as the pressure changes daily.

I have a dial type thermometer that can be adjusted. I just calibrate mine once at the beginning of the season and I've been using these calculations for the last couple years.

I just added a display for the boiling point of water number near the bottom of the screen on my app for anyone who wants to use that for calibration, technically that's just 7.5 degrees less than the syrup number at the top.

Also for those who have thermometers that can not be calibrated, meaning one that is fixed to 212 degrees at sea level under average pressure, like a glass candy thermometer or some digital thermometers, I just added a number that has been adjusted for elevation. That is at the bottom of the screen also. This of course using this would assume you've got an accurate thermometer off the shelf.

By next season I'll make that a preference setting in my app as to which one you want to display.

[maple maniac65]

Thanks for sharing the app.

[Bricklayer]

Yesterday the app showed that boiling temp of water was 213.1. Tested it with boiling water to calibrate my auto draw and it was spot on 213.1. I was hoping to get close but right on was outstanding. Great app. Gonna try using the temps for my auto draw and see how accurate it gets.

[NHarcher]

This app is awesome. I can fix most anything and can build a good bit too, but I hate computers and am super grateful that you don't !!

[flyzone13]

I really like your app and have been using it frequently. I do however have a question. When you first open the app it calculates then the first temps you see will tell you temp at which your sap becomes syrup, why is the temp at the bottom of the page different for the boiling point of syrup? It says it useful if you cannot calibrate your thermometer. Just curious as to which one to use as they are usually a couple degrees different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thbarrons]

When you first open the app it calculates then the first temps you see will tell you temp at which your sap becomes syrup, why is the temp at the bottom of the page different for the boiling point of syrup? It says it useful if you cannot calibrate your thermometer. Just curious as to which one to use as they are usually a couple degrees different.

Thanks for the feedback flyzone13.

I recently added that number on the bottom of the page after some feedback from another user. The calculation is accurate but it is somewhat experimental as to how to use it in my app at this time. I see now that I labeled that in a confusing way. Sorry about that. Short answer…use the top number.

Long answer, here’s why…When you get the barometric pressure reading from tv or radio, or look it up on the Net, it is reported for you local pressure reading but it is adjusted to take out the deviation for elevation. The reading I’m using from Weather Underground is supposed to be similarly adjusted.

When you buy a thermometer it should also be calibrated off the shelf to work at sea level pressure. Even if you were to calibrate that new thermometer yourself, you would be calibrating it to 212 which is boiling point at sea level at 29.921. A one time calibration would take care of tweaking it for your elevation. But the reason you would usually check the boiling point of water frequently and recalibrate all the time is because of the deviation in pressure from 29.921. My app is doing this calculation for you based on the readings provided from the closest weather station. So use the top number.

That bottom number was essentially putting the elevation back into the equation. I guess a better way of saying it is that would be useful if you had a barometer that was not adjusted for sea level. Some users may have their own weather stations and some new phones can now do barometric pressure. Just to avoid confusion for now I’m going to take that bottom number back out until I build in some preferences into my app to use a specific station or the built in phone and provide some better instructions.

[mountainvan]

Thanks for the app. It gives me a target area for the day to set the drawoff. I've spread the word to other Catskill sugarers also. Thanks again for your work and sharing.

[SeanD]

I just happened to read this thread while I'm making cream. My BP on my stovetop is 211.3, but the app says it should be 212.43. I'm going to trust my thermometer today. It's a Thermoworks Chefalarm that I trust a lot. Besides, I'm using the same therm to determine my target temp.

This app will be good for the ballpark on the evap though - or at least a triple check. I use this same therm. and separate dial therm. on the pans. In the future, though, is it safe to say, the app and my therm are off by a degree or will that change?

[mellondome]

Sean.. did you check against the second number on the app? Do you know what your elivation is?

[thbarrons]

In the future, though, is it safe to say, the app and my therm are off by a degree or will that change?

Hi SeanD and thanks for posting the question about my app. From the feedback here, which I greatly appreciate, I am learning that I will need to implement some preferences in the future to accommodate various user scenarios. I have had users report here in the forums and via PM that the app is spot on, then others such as yourself are finding it to be off by varying degrees.

It is possible to show the right boil temp if the following are true. That we get an accurate pressure reading from the weather station and an accurate GPS reading from mobile phone. And that we know the elevation of both the weather station and the mobile phone. And that we assume to know the calibration method of both the weather station and the thermometer in use. If anyone of those aren’t true the math can be off.

Since you seem to have faith in the accuracy of your thermometer we could conclude one of the other factors is off. Perhaps the weather station you are picking up is at a different elevation than you, 500ft difference can cause it to be off by almost 1 degree. It is also possible that the weather station is reporting the pressure wrong because it is not accurately calibrated. Many of these reporting stations are personal stations run by our neighbors, some people adjust them better than others. For example I checked the one the app is picking up for me against the local airport so I trust it.

I’m busy right now, making syrup finally, so not going to have a lot of spare time to make any program changes to be useful this season. But by next year I hope to implement some preference settings for different users and their varying scenarios as described in this thread. I’m finding this exercise interesting and will continue to adjust and make improvements based on the great feedback from this group. Thank you.

[Trapper2]

Thanks th,
Your app was spot on in Central Wisconsin Sunday March 12th 4:00 pm.
Thanks for a great tool.
Trapper

[mmish]

If you just want a boiling point calculator, try this
https://www.thermoworks.com/bpcalc/

[ScottT]

Second year of being serious about making syrup. Started looking at the actual parametric pressure and elevation when considering Syrup temperature and finishing. I have a Murphy Cup this year and started using an Hydrometer two years ago. Just: The SapTapApp is pretty cool and glad I started using it.

My question: Yesterday, Based on Barametric Pressure and elevation, my water boils at 209.85. I added 7.5 which brought me to 217.35 degrees when the sap becomes syrup.

I needed to bring the syrup temperature up to 220 degrees (almost 221) just to get it to the correct brix on my hydrometer. How high in temperature can you go ABOVE the syrup level (in this case 217 degrees) before you get into trouble of it crystalizing?

[Andy VT]

The hydrometer is all that matters. The boiling temp is just to tell you when to start checking. Sap Tap App is not useful for this and it is leading to a lot of confusion.
What you experienced is quite normal in my experience (which admittedly is only about double yours). Good luck!

[ScottT]

Thank you! I found the App accurate to both my Shack and my home. This last weekend was my first time actually looking at, and paying attention to the temp that water boiled in my location. Eye opening for sure. This explains a lot of challenges I had last year getting the syrup to the correct brix. Struggled with being wary of the temp going above 219 - 220.

I appreciate the feedback.

[Andy VT]

You're welcome! Now that I see your signature that our amount of experience is actually about the same.
Also wanted to mention that my finishing temperature has tended to be 222F.
Whether I'm at the bottom or top of the brix spec seems to be a question of whether I'm 222.0 or 222.9.
And I've never measured boiling water at more than 212 or so.
In 2022 I was measuring with a hydrometer, thermometer in the test cup, and conversion chart.
2023 I used a murphy cup with the hydrometer.
2021 was my first year and I did my best with temperature and aproning. I wasn't too far off.
And, no, it's not the thermometer, or if it is, it is several thermometers being wrong by the same amount.
My theory is that finishing a batch in a stockpot is just a little different somehow than finishing from a continuous flow pan, from the perspective of what finishing temperature you'll read. But I am not sure!
All I know is anyone who says a certain temperature is the end of story, well, isn't quite correct.
Happy boiling!

[ScottT]

I bought a Murphy Cup this year to make it easier to match temp to hydrometer. Helped a lot with the first batch.

I see you added the RB5 this year. Same. However I haven't used it yet. Last weekend all our buckets were frozen solid. Should be able to fire it up this weekend. I'm on two burner propane stoves as well.

[berkshires]

You probably know this already but if the thermometer is touching the bottom of the pan (or even really close to it) you'll get a higher-than-accurate reading of the temperature of the sap. So it could be that when you're finishing, if your thermometer is touching the bottom of your pot, you think you're finishing at a higher temp than you really are.

GO

[Andy VT]

True about the thermometer touching bottom or sides, and it is indeed tricky when dangling a bbq thermometer TC probe over the side of a pot.
A candy thermometer would be better of course, but overall it seems I'd be in a similar place no matter the thermometer and it ends up serving mainly to warn me when and how often to start taking hydrometer readings.
ScottT, another thing I failed to mention (but the Murphy cup has probably already helped you figure out) is don't just use the red line... that assumes the sample is at 211F. This is probably achievable at a draw-off valve, but when I'm ladling the sample from stove-top pot into the cup, I lose enough temp that my target is 61 brix rather than 59. If you understand the relationship between sample temp and target density reading you're already all set on that, but I hear a lot of people just say top red line for hot and bottom red line for cold, but I've never squarely hit either one!

[ScottT]

Agree about the red / blue line. My struggle was being worried I'd take the finishing too far above 219, when I should have been paying more attention to the relationship between temperature and the hydrometer. Its one of the reasons why it took me so long to finish boil. It would hit 220 and I'd shut it down, but Brix wasn't right.

It's all a learning experience.

Also invested in a better thermometer for the finishing pot to better watch it.

Should be a good run this week in Michigan's Thumb region. Looking forward to getting back at it.

[Swingpure]

I still find the sap tap app helpful. It does tell me when to start checking, which can be different on different days. Most people verify the Brix with a hydrometer, I choose to do it with a refractometer.

I find it nice to know the temperature is also backing up what the refractometer is telling me.