Newbie - please help with a few questions (with picts)..Part 2

[Dinorocks]

We had a few days of warm weather this week and we tapped a dozen trees...collected ~16 gallons of sap which boiled down to 40 ounces of syrup. Much smoother than last year but would like to further increase my efficiency. If possible, I had a few questions that I was looking for answers on (some are more general...not boiler related)...

Questions:

1. Should I leave my taps in the trees until the sap starts flowing again (probably another month based on long term weather forecast)?

2. Should I leave the tubing connected...I'm assuming if it is cold, bacteria/mold, etc. will not start growing until it warms up again?

3. I used poly tubing that is 1/4" inner diameter. If there is a low area in my tubing, will the sap coming from the tree push sap through the low spots in my tubing into my bucket (I did collect some sap...not as much as I would have expected...might have been more weather dependent).

4. Boil pan. I have a friend that offered to fabricate a boiling pan for me. Based on the size of my fire pit (newly constructed with firebrick this time), I was thinking 32" by 22" by 10" deep (or possibly a little smaller...30" by 20" by 8" deep). I would like to install a spout at the bottom corner and handles on the ends. What gauge stainless steel do you recommend? What type of welding material (I'm not a welder but can pass this on to my friend). Any suggestions regarding the size of my pan...or possible anything else I should consider in the design? Below are some picts of the current fire pit.

Thank you very much for any help!!!

Dino

Picts from January 2017 below

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/dlzack825/sap5_zpsqwex3qy5.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/user/dlzack825/media/sap5_zpsqwex3qy5.jpg.html)

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/dlzack825/sap4_zpsabri9zlb.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/user/dlzack825/media/sap4_zpsabri9zlb.jpg.html)

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/dlzack825/sap1_zpsqvjtt9cj.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/user/dlzack825/media/sap1_zpsqvjtt9cj.jpg.html)

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/dlzack825/sap3_zpssxlu4ugh.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/user/dlzack825/media/sap3_zpssxlu4ugh.jpg.html)

[berkshires]

Welcome! I'm a newbie too, so I'll confine my answers to what I do know, and leave the rest for more experienced folks.

Q 1. Should I leave my taps in the trees until the sap starts flowing again (probably another month based on long term weather forecast)?
Answer 1:
Yes you should leave them in, but...

If you won't be boiling every time you get a little flow, you will either need to freeze your sap, or dump it. If it gets really warm, it can go bad in a day or two (or it can last longer, depending on temperature).

Also, even if you leave taps in, they will start to "dry up" in a month. They'll still probably run for another month, but less and less.

Q2. Should I leave the tubing connected...I'm assuming if it is cold, bacteria/mold, etc. will not start growing until it warms up again?
A2 - Yes, but see above.

Q3. I used poly tubing that is 1/4" inner diameter. If there is a low area in my tubing, will the sap coming from the tree push sap through the low spots in my tubing into my bucket (I did collect some sap...not as much as I would have expected...might have been more weather dependent).
A3 - This is actually kind of a complicated question, and depends on a lot of things. But the short answer is yes, if the high spot in the line is lower than the spot on the tree you've drilled, a good flow should "push" the sap over the high spot. Note - looks from photos like you tapped pretty low on the trees. This is great for the kids access, but... you can see how it could create issues with tubing etc.

Q4. Boil pan. I have a friend that offered to fabricate a boiling pan for me. Based on the size of my fire pit (newly constructed with firebrick this time), I was thinking 32" by 22" by 10" deep (or possibly a little smaller...30" by 20" by 8" deep). I would like to install a spout at the bottom corner and handles on the ends. What gauge stainless steel do you recommend? What type of welding material (I'm not a welder but can pass this on to my friend). Any suggestions regarding the size of my pan...or possible anything else I should consider in the design? Below are some picts of the current fire pit.

A4. I'm not going to get into all of this, but I will say one thing: A good stainless pan is a significant investment. If you think you might not be boiling on that fire pit forever, consider cheaper options for now. For example, you can purchase stainless steel steam table tray pans for $20 - $50 a pop from the internet or chef supply stores. Expand your fire pit? Buy an additional steam tray pan. Shrink it? Throw one in the garage. Then once you've figured all this out and know what you're going to be boiling on for the next few years, you'll know what kind of pan you want.

One other note: Pretty sure that Home Depot bucket is not made of food-grade plastic. Not the end of the world, but it may be leaching chemicals into your sap.

Cheers!

[psparr]

Gotta love making your own right.
I would think 8" high sides are plenty.
I would go the bigger size on the pan. You will always expand your operation. Might consider 24" wide, will accommodate a real arch in the future.
Also if the syrup is for yourself and family, mild steel will work with the added benefit of a better boil. It transfers heat better than stainless.
The only downside to a bigger pan, is, if you don't get enough sap to run. But what you do boil down can be saved to be added to the next boil.

Good luck!

[barnbc76]

Q1-3 same as berkshires 4 taps into 1- 5gal bucket i imagine it is severly inadiquite unless they are low producers i would probably do 2 per 5 gal.
Q4. I just had a friend of mine build me a pan 25"x37"x8" 18ga stainless 304 mill finish. My friend is dxperienced welder but never welded stainless that thin but afterwords he said it wasn't that bad and could have welded 20ga. Obviously it is not as cheap as buying steam trays but for about $180 including handles, 1/2" SS bung(needs to be welded) for the ball valve to thread into and a few bottles of syrup as payment for welding i look forward to using it this year. My advice is to make the pan a size that you can use now and in the future for expansion, your block/brick firepit can be changed to accomidate any size you want. If you decide to gi another step next year or another like say a 275gal oil tank converted arch you can do that easily if your pan dimensions are not too weird. How many trees do you plan on tapping/havd access to.

[Dinorocks]

Thank you very much for the answers to my questions! If you don't mind, I have a couple follow up questions;

Regarding building a pan "to accommodate a real arch in the future" - what would be a "standard size" of a real arch if I wanted to stay close to 32" by 22" by 10" deep. And, what do you mean by "mild steel"...I was under the impression that the boiling equipment needed to be stainless steel. I don't mind spending a bit more if it will last!

Lastly, regarding gauge of stainless steel to use for boiling pan, the thinner the better but harder to weld? Based on research I did, I was thinking about 18 gauge?

To follow up on some of your comments/questions;

I agree, I should use food-grade buckets...I would really like to find a couple dozen galvanized buckets to use.

I had three trees going into one bucket because I was only collecting for a couple days (and checking buckets daily)...last year my gallon milk jugs were overflowing after only a few hours!

My kids drilled the holes in the trees....is there another reason to keep taps higher up trunk other than for gravity to better work with tubing?

I have about 24 sugar maples on my property so I don't anticipate my operation growing much larger...I would like to be able to maximize my sap recovery and yield maybe 5 gallons of syrup per year. It takes me from 7:00 AM to after midnight to boil 40 gallons of sap using my 2 4-gallon boilers...increasing the surface area will hopefully cut that time down drastically!

Thanks again for all your help!!

Dino

[Big_Eddy]

Thank you very much for the answers to my questions! If you don't mind, I have a couple follow up questions;

Regarding building a pan "to accommodate a real arch in the future" - what would be a "standard size" of a real arch if I wanted to stay close to 32" by 22" by 10" deep. And, what do you mean by "mild steel"...I was under the impression that the boiling equipment needed to be stainless steel. I don't mind spending a bit more if it will last!

Lastly, regarding gauge of stainless steel to use for boiling pan, the thinner the better but harder to weld? Based on research I did, I was thinking about 18 gauge?

To follow up on some of your comments/questions;

I agree, I should use food-grade buckets...I would really like to find a couple dozen galvanized buckets to use.

I had three trees going into one bucket because I was only collecting for a couple days (and checking buckets daily)...last year my gallon milk jugs were overflowing after only a few hours!

My kids drilled the holes in the trees....is there another reason to keep taps higher up trunk other than for gravity to better work with tubing?

I have about 24 sugar maples on my property so I don't anticipate my operation growing much larger...I would like to be able to maximize my sap recovery and yield maybe 5 gallons of syrup per year. It takes me from 7:00 AM to after midnight to boil 40 gallons of sap using my 2 4-gallon boilers...increasing the surface area will hopefully cut that time down drastically!

Thanks again for all your help!!

Dino

If you plan to buy a commercial arch, standard widths are 18", 24" and 36". If you plan to build your own arch, anything goes. Longer narrow arches extract more heat from the fire than do square shapes. 3x length vswidth is typical. (i.e. 2'x6' is better than 3'x4')

Thinner stainless is harder to weld than thicker. All depends on your weldor and his/her abilities. 24 gauge is used on some pans, 22 on a lot of them. 20 and 18 will work. Anything more than that is overkill (heavier and costlier too) TIG welding is HIGHLY recommended and necessary for the thinner gauges.

Mild steel works fine. It's cheaper and easier to weld, however if you're having a pan made up, buy stainless if you can. (Search the archives for mild steel for more details)

Galvanized are NOT considered food grade anymore. Avoid them. Buy Aluminum buckets, or food grade plastic. Check with local bakeries for frosting buckets.

Tap anywhere between knees and shoulders. The difference in height is immaterial.

[Dinorocks]

That was extremely helpful! Thank you very much!!

Take care,
Dino

[psparr]

By mild steel, I mean just plain steel. There is a bit more involved in the upkeep of the pan, but not much.
The thinner the better for gauge. Find an experienced tig welder and you should be fine.
As long as the bucket has HDPE in the recycle symbol your ok.

Tapping chest high or lower on the tree is good. Most just tap tap chest high, because it's convenient.
As far as a standard pan size, you might consider 2'x3' standard arches are usually 18"-24"-36" and up.

[psparr]

Disregard. Missed the last reply.

[Dinorocks]

Thank you psparr! Good confirmation for me! I'm changing my design to 24" by 36" (pretty close to my original of 32" by 22")... what do you think of height...8" or 10"?

I'll ask to have it TIG welded and use 20 to 22 gauge SS. Should I request to have a bead of weld along the top edge or have the top folded over (so its not a sharp and to stiffen it up)...

I see multiple finishes on the SS...dull mill, mirror, brush polish...any advantages/disadvantages?

I would like to get a SS bung welded to the side/bottom so I can install a ball valve...I see 1/2" and 3/4" commonly listed...personal preference? I also was thinking of getting some handles welded on the pan to make it easier to move around.

Wow, all these questions! Sorry!! I know there is lots of variables and personal opinions...just didn't what to make a dumb/obvious mistake. Your input is greatly appreciated!!!

[psparr]

You won't need 10" high. In a flue pan yes, but not a syrup pan. Won't boil that high.
As far as the top goes, it's a good idea to have a bend in it to give it some strength. Especially with a lighter gauge pan. It also gives you something to grab.
I don't have pictures on my phone, but here's a video. You can see how I had my pan bent. https://youtu.be/whRR8BlfocY

Mirror finish may help sugar sand from sticking for a while, but eventually it will.

Personally I'd go with 3/4" port for a drain.
Good luck.

[Big_Eddy]

Thank you psparr! Good confirmation for me! I'm changing my design to 24" by 36" (pretty close to my original of 32" by 22")... what do you think of height...8" or 10"?

I'll ask to have it TIG welded and use 20 to 22 gauge SS. Should I request to have a bead of weld along the top edge or have the top folded over (so its not a sharp and to stiffen it up)...

I see multiple finishes on the SS...dull mill, mirror, brush polish...any advantages/disadvantages?

I would like to get a SS bung welded to the side/bottom so I can install a ball valve...I see 1/2" and 3/4" commonly listed...personal preference? I also was thinking of getting some handles welded on the pan to make it easier to move around.

Wow, all these questions! Sorry!! I know there is lots of variables and personal opinions...just didn't what to make a dumb/obvious mistake. Your input is greatly appreciated!!!

psparr covered most of it.
Don't weld the top edge. Welding will distort it - badly.
Mill is much cheaper and just as effective.
Even 3/4" is small. When you open that valve- you want sap / syrup to come out. Suggest 1" would be better. Get it as low as you can on the pan side.
With an outlet valve - you might want to consider adding a pair of dividers to the pan to allow either batch or continuous flow boiling.
Handles are good. 2 each side. Even a 2x3 pan is awkward to lift on your own - much easier with 2 people.

[Haynes Forest Products]

First welcome to the Jungle. If your arch is flexible I would invest in a good sheet off whatever thickness your friend can weld. Next if he can bend it then use the entire sheet. Why leave any on the floor make the pan as big as possible out of a 4' X 8" sheet. Next because your making the pan go with mill finish its cheaper and you wont be upset with hitting it with a scotch brite pad or scraper. Make the sides as high as your sheet will allow so if you get carless.......and you will it wont boil over. Because your batch boiling you stand the chance of it running over. Next go with the bigger valve you can always neck it down. Niter flakes and sugar sand can clog up a smaller valve and then your in there with a stick burning skin off your wrist area because the gloves are to short......Well that what I herd a guy say. :(

Have fun and enjoy

[Ahnohta2]

lots of good advice here.

I would agree atleast 3/4" outlet on your pan.

Agree bend top sides in or out,,,for strength. I prefer bent in 3/8-1/2"

I would also agree 24" wide. You may want to go to another pan in future 24" wide will sell better then 22" or other odd size.

If I was to do my pan over again I would go w/ 7" sides vs 8" [lighter wt] I would not go down to 6" or less

[barnbc76]

My 2x3 pan weighs 40lbs without SAP in it so I would put handles on it (I had mine welded on mine they were garage door handles from Lowes) with only one person the pan is not easy to handle with SAP, I would suggest having something you can slide your pan onto or off of close by unless you have help. I bought the sheet metal from metalsupermarket.com they have a shop on elmwood in buffalo. You can get an estimate for your sheet metal online. SS 403 2b mill finish. Unless your friend can get it for you. Mine cost $140 for a sheet 40"x52" which gave me a 25" x37" x7.5". The price difference in 20-18ga is like $20. You are going to love boiling on your new pan.

One other thing, on your other post did I see that you are using connectors from the hardware store to tap your trees, if so I think you would benefit greatly from buying actual plastic spouts for tapping trees.

[Conococheague]

Dinorocks,

I'm a newbie too and benefitted from theses answers to your questions. I had to reply when I saw your bucket milker boiling pan. Are they Surge? I love it! Brings back memories of using them when showing cows at the county fair or Holstein events. That was almost 40 years ago. I have a couple old stainless steel sinks from an obsolete milk house that I plan to convert to sap evaporators. This is only my second year doing syrup. I boiled 120 gallons to make 3 gallons of syrup last year using large restaurant buffet pans last year. It worked but I, too, am looking to expand my evaporating operation. It's been a bad year for ice fishing so I'm chomping at the bit to start sugaring. Good luck and have fun

Conococheague

[Dinorocks]

Wow! Thank you everyone for your responses!!! I think I have all the ammo need to pull the trigger and get my new pan fabricated. I'll keep you informed!

Take care,
Dino

[Haynes Forest Products]

I have a couple old stainless steel sinks from an obsolete milk house

Please I beg of you dont ruin the SS milk house sinks you will want them when the shack goes up and your building your kitchen. I will send you for free 2 steam table pans you just cover shipping PM with a phone I can text pictures of them. Chuck

[Conococheague]

Chuck,

I appreciate the generous offer. Last year I boiled on three of the largest SS steam table pans and I still have them. I don't have immediate plans to do anything irreversible to the milk house sinks. In fact, I'm pursuing other options as the cylindrical bottoms to the sinks are not ideal for maximizing the area exposed to heat versus the volume. I won't do anything to the sinks unless I get desperate. BTW, in my part of the country which is heavily dairy (like yours, I imagine), most of the operations/herds are very large and size of the milk houses like where I got these sinks are obsolete and most of the plumbing (including the bulk tanks) were just abandoned in place when the herd expansions occurred and new facilities were built. Now imagine if those bulk tanks weren't double walled and insulated what an evaporator you could fabricate... Thanks again, the sinks are safe for now.

Conococheague

[Dinorocks]

Hi Chuck-

I tried sending you a PM but your mailbox is full. I wanted to see if you would be interested in extending the offer you made to Conococheague regarding your boiling pans. I'm not sure when my pan will be fabricated...I would be interested in your pans (I would pay for them along with shipping of course) to help make things a bit more efficient during my next boiling. If not, no worries!!

Thanks for your consideration! Dino